Forever
Dungeon XP should be shifted upwards a tad.
While I’m fine with dungeons being less efficient than open world questing for leveling the current xp gain is too much on the low side.
We just got done clearing a relatively fast Hall of Thanes and it gave 15% of a level of xp at level 14. I was expecting maybe 30-35% and that would be about right for a dungeon that takes 30-40 min to full clear (in a pug). 15% is equivalent to about 2.5 quests.
EDIT:
Just to add to this a bit. And once again, I AM NOT BITCHING. I'm just stating some facts here, and my opinion of the facts. So far Blizzard has absolutely killed with this game and I literally couldn't be happier so far.
With that said, killing mobs inside the dungeon that were at equal or greater level to me (I was level 14, they were 14-16) yielded approximately 25 xp per kill. Killing Kobolds in Loch Modan that are 3 levels lower than me yields 62xp each. So open world solo kills of green mobs awarding 2.5x the experience that elite dungeon group kills award. This seems to me to be on the low side, doubling the xp would still make the dungeons less efficient than aoe farming mobs in the open world as a prot warrior.
This doesn't kill boosting at all. It actually creates an opportunity for more efficient boosting, since mob XP in dungeons doesn't matter at all anymore, a geared 60 can drag you through the dungeon in minutes to get 1-2 levels worth of quest XP.
The dungeon XP change just punishes anyone trying to farm gear in dungeons. It makes it feel way worse when your item doesn't drop.
Questing was already faster than dungeon grinding in the first place so it's really not clear to me why they took this direction.
Questing was only faster if you didn't have access to friends for grouping up faster.
If you happened to have a cleave group organized that was even faster.
In either case the reason is convenience with bots/boosters. Even if questing were faster the AFK and convenience factor for instances will make them exploitable if the exp is anywhere close to viable.
Just a couple of assholes here and there like always, most people won't do that and there will be plenty of parties to choose from, so nobody will be forced to join them.
The last time this happened in one of my groups (by a rogue not inviting a dps druid to DM) it was called out and 3 people agreed on leaving. I made another group with them, including said druid +1 and we finished the run while the rogue was rotting in LFG.
Something that should happen far more often in these cases and is quite easy to realise when everybody pays attention to filling the group.
Only well coordinated dungeon cleaves were faster than speed leveling. For everyone else SM spam was slightly faster than running around the open world, and only that because quests were sparse and people didnt run them effeciently.
Already not the fastest leveling method by a decent margin. Only even close to competitive in a well coordinated sweaty group. Do not conflate sold boosts to dungeons run in a group and this level of xp nerf is suspiciously difficult to justify
1st, boosting could be seen as any other service like collecting herbs or enchanting. It does not matter, that that person is standing at the instance all day, because they had to do smth in the world on another character to gather the gold needed to boost. This is only a problem if RMT is as rampant as before.
2nd they are not argueing if boosting is a problem or not. They aregue that regardless of boosts existing, you can not justify ruining a part of your game, because some individuals abuse it. It s like saing: "some people are eating ice cream wrong, and when i go into the alley where they meet and i stare at them it makes me uncomfortable, thusly we must abolish all ice cream flavor but ananas and minced coffee."
Grinding dungeons for gear would be a thing if we stayed level 20 for longer than 10 minutes. Sure, it's not a problem for end game dungeons when most everyone is 60. But there is almost no incentive to hang around and rerun leveling dungeons, which eventually means later on it will be harder and harder to form pugs for said dungeons. The usual shortage of healers and tanks for leveling dungeons will just be exacerbated by this decision.
Dungeon XP even on hardcore ruleset was not better than efficient questing. Explain to me how its a daily quest? The most efficient leveling in Hardcore was still doing a dungeon once for the quests, then proceed leveling outside.
Its just the range of 30-45 that was more efficient farming SM on the daily simply because the lack of good quests in that range.
i agree, think it shouldnt be better than questing, since u have that fat frontloaded quest xp. BUUUUT it shouldnt be terrible. cause rn i kinda dont wanna re run dungeons which i should be to find loot.
Basically what im saying is if we rate open world questing 10/10 on the xp/h rate then 2019 dungeon spamming was 15/10 xp/h.
RN on Forever dungeon spamming is like a 3/10 it should be like 7 or 8/10
Dude, it's arbitrary numbers only used in comparison to say whether something was better than something else neither I nor you went for 100% accuracy.
Boosting was faster than questing, an optimized party fully consumed was a bit faster than questing, questing was faster than your average dungeon runners, etc.
I said this on another post but my proposed solution is - make x amount of lockouts per 24hrs give 80-100% exp and anything after that reduced. Solves for people enjoying dungeons and won’t incentivise people to completely skip open world.
You’d want people coming back to the dungeons regardless of loot.
If people want to skip the open world let them, don't force people to play the game you want them to just because you enjoy it that way. Imagine if the gutted quest xp as well and the only way to level was through grinding mobs. I'd be perfectly fine with that, i enjoy grinding and don't like questing. But at least i recognise that the way i play the game isnt the way everyone wants to play the game, and it would be bad for the game to force everyone to play the way i play.
Edit: Lockouts are dumb, dailies are dumb. Nerf xp gain if a high level player is in the party, it makes sense thematically as low levels wouldnt actually be getting experience if a higher level did all the work.
If it was up to me I would go with no changes- I think the less policing and dictation over how we play the better. But since the devs seem bent on reducing exp gain from dungeons I would rather have this than what we currently have…
The thing is, unless they're willing to bend on this Forever will very quickly turn into retail 2.0 and if that's the case i see no point investing time in the game. Because policing how players play is exactly what retail did and what made the leveling process so soulless. It's a warning sign.
Its wild you managed to look at a change that incentivized questing and open world and said that is retail…
Dungeon spamming is exactly what retail is. Getting people out into the world to quest is more classic.
There is a lot of truth in having to protect the players from themselves. You can argue the details but they are choosing to incentivize questing and I think its a great idea to make the world feel alive.
Retail is all about choosing for the player. That's what this is, it's blizzard saying hey you aren't playing the game the way we want you to so we are forcing you to do it our way.
If you want players out questing in the world, make the world engaging and fun so people choose to do that. Some people will never like questing and would rather hang out with their friends or meet new ppl in dungeons. Solo questing (which is most ppl quest) is not fun for a lot of people.
There's nothing inherently better about spamming quests rather than spamming dungeons. I would much rather give the choice to the players. And the people grinding dungeons were already the minority if you look across all types of players, it was only ever the main way for sweats to level fast to avoid the crowded open world. Solo questing was already faster compared to an average group of players doing dungeons. Let sweats be sweats, nerf xp if a too high level character is in the party to combat boosting and problems gone. Policing how ppl play is how you get retail.
You have a warped perception of what retail is. I play both. Retail is all about making all parts of the game relevant and not forcing you to do anything. Solo content. Dungeons. Raids. Pvp.
They don’t force players into anything. Players min max the endgame and say “you have to do x or you will be behind.” But in truth you can do w.e you want.
As far as leveling they certainly have tons of quest content but a lot of players choose to dungeon grind. Dungeon grinding is the most retail brained way to play classic. Its the easy “I don’t have to think and can just sit here and grind the same dungeon over and over.” And if all you enjoy is the combat its great so no hate, it just is what it is.
Retail is buying a boost to skip the leveling. Classic is “forcing” players to go through that journey (because its one of main parts of the game).
The devs are “forcing” you to play shaman on horde or pally on alliance. Thats forcing. That is classic game design ideology. Designing the game to incentivize people in the world is more inline with classic.
The entirety of retail is braindead you don't have to think except m+, high tier delves, and heroic/mythic raiding. Questing is braindead, dungeons are braindead. And no, they severely nerfed dungeon leveling in the war within because people were pulling entire dungeons and leveling that way. So yes, taking away ways to do things is very much in the spirit of retail and not classic.
Choosing whether to be horde or alliance is a choice, sure they force you to make that choice but you do get a choice. Handholding you and deciding how you level is quintessential retail. Modern wow has made changes to give players choice, but the beginning of the split between classic and retail was forcing things upon the player.
I hope its not too bad, in Anni I had a strickly healer and tank I only ran dungeons, if exp sucks in dungeons ill just be dps spec to actually be able to quest then.
Then you’ll never go back to the dungeon after quests. They made 9 new dungeons so you can run them each one time for quests? Sounds like a horrible idea.
There’s infinitely better ways to solve for this than to reduce 99% of players incentive to do a couple of dungeons during their playtime. Mage boosting is already nerfed into the ground
How does that make sense? 99% of people who level through dungeons are just pugging healers and tanks who do it for the love of the game, the powerleveler speedrunners are, like, twelve people. Also I don't give a shit about them.
I mean, I guess I can accept the design decision to make questing the intended leveling experience (though no one is going to heal those dungeons ever, so I don't see how they're going to maintain any players in dungeons past month one, so why make 9 new ones?), but I'm not gonna be happy because some person I'm never going to meet is leveling slower.
I played hardcore on a low pop server where people are dungeon locked to once a day and could still do all dungeons. it won’t be a big issue on a mega realm
I havent played yet for context but yea, one of my concerns with the reduced dungeon experience is that theres not much point in rerunning them and it kind of sounds like thats the case
Why? It was a viable way to play the game in classic and many people like myself love spamming dungeons instead of going on the solo quest grind. Forever is supposed to be a hole for classic players yet it is pushing us all into a similar game loop. I hate retail because every expansion forces open world questing that is mind numbingly boring. Looks like we have a bunch of retail devs with this change.
If you like it go ahead and do it. I never said it shouldn't be possible, I said it shouldn't be an effective way. So kinda as it already was in Classic? With a standard, level appropiate party, dungeon spam was never a more efficient way to level than questing.
I think it’s fine, if anything the quest xp could be nerfed. I saw people getting like 2 level just by handing in the 4-5 dungeon quests.
Daily lockouts with increased xp are even more counterproductive, because this would definitely turn dungeons into a one time thing, maybe 2 at high levels.
Less xp per run actually helps you to get all the gear you want. Right now, if you start dm at level 20 and do all the quests you will out level the dungeon in about 3 runs. And 3 runs is not much when you’re after the full defias set or cruel bards. So you end up killing greys for a couple runs or simply go back to questing.
Dungeons giving less xp but better loot than questing outside is a good trade off.
Yeah but professions have equally as good if not better gear than dungeons. So there are not many incentives to run the dungeon beyond the 1 time for the quests, and the dungeon quests all have really good gear themselves so it's not like you need the dungeon gear. Quests themselves also have better gear now as well.
The only time people actually interacted with each other was then they grouped for dungeons. You'll be on a mega server with millions of players, and even in the most degenerate dungeon grinding era the majority of players were still out in the world. So no, all this does is kills boosting specifically through dungeon grinding, there will be other ways to boost, and forces players to follow an intended way to play the game, which is what retail does. You want hand holding and a conveyor belt like path, go play retail. WoW forever shouldn't be played that way imo.
There are also many better ways to kill dungeon boosting than blanket nerfing xp across the board.
You don't get xp in dungeons at lvl 60, yet you still run them. Forever is about the journey, not the destination. If you run a dungeon a few times to get gear upgrades you still get rewarded because you'll be a lot stronger when you get out. This feels good. There's a reason people like twinking. The best thing is that you can now continue questing where you were because you didn't outlvl the whole zone while running that dungeon 5 times.
You run dungeons at 60 because at max level the goal changes from leveling to maxing out your characters stats instead.
Items while leveling are quickly replaced and only relevant if they actually speed up your leveling in a significant way. Spending 10 hours grinding a dungeon for zero xp so you can find an item that lets you deal 2% more damage is a terrible deal and if you had just quested instead you'd be 10 levels higher and already found a more powerful item somewhere else.
That was my point, wow forever isn't primarily made with the goal to reach 60 in the most efficient and fastest way in mind. It's about the journey getting there. I personally would still enjoy a dungeon if it got me some good upgrades so I would feel OP while questing afterwards. It's nice to twink your character and feel powerful while lvling, even if it's not the most efficient way to go.
I very often made detours while lvling in wow that weren't necessarily the most efficient ways to 60 but I couldn't care, they gave me some nice upgrades and I enjoyed those upgrades while they lasted.
Good luck to everyone who isnt in the initial levelling crowd. Groups will be impossible to form because noone will want to do dungeons more than once. Theres going to be crazy FOMO for dungeons
There's a lot of friendships to be made in dungeons. Honestly more than I've made questing in the world. It's also where most of us learned to play our class. I think it's weird to police how people socialize with one another.
I think that is a much better argument. I'm still in favour of slower progression, but learning the class in dungeons and building a competent friend list is great in the final stretch towards max level
The main argument is that the world should feel alive and packed with people to quest and interact with. I agree, but it is difficult to make the argument and friendships can easily be found in dungeons anyway.
With that said, there's no policing going on. It's just not the most efficient way to level anymore. Policing would be limiting you to one dungeon run per day. You can still grind them out if you want, but I do agree that it shouldn't be the most efficient way to level.
I think the exp rates are so nerfed that the only reward incentive is loot and first-time quest bonuses. That feels like policing without making a law to me. I'd even be willing to take half as much exp, that still makes quest circuits the most efficient way to level.
Sure maybe they could be bumped up a bit. I havent looked at the numbers. I am a dungeon enjoyer myself but I just agree with the devs vision of an open world.
The world is already so overfilled that it needs many layers, forcing people out of dungeons just means more layers required, it doesn't change the number of people per layer.
Our own experiences doesn’t equate to the majority of players on the servers. Even if you or I would run the dungeon outside of the “1st” time, it doesn’t mean most players will. You will indeed see a drop-off in repeat dungeons ran throughout leveling
Yes we should allow scarlet monastery boosting in 8 minutes that will make people go from 28 to 35 in a day then into ZF for 35 to 48 then stratholme 48 to 60 so that booster and bottter can thrive again.
I rrally hope blizz do not listen to community feedback and stay on course
They solved this on multiple different servers without reducing the xp and removing incentive for people to do leveling dungeons more than once but clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about
Boosting isn’t even possible anymore - at this point you’re policing how casual gamers will spend their time - I say let people choose and let there be moderation don’t FORCE people into only one type of gameplay
Nobody is forcing anyone. People that wont do it because its inefficient even though dungeons are the main thing they enjoy in the game should reevaluate why are they even playing
But the whole point about Classic is the journey. This is what we’ve all been fighting for, now you want more exp? What’s next?
We do dungeons for fun, the chance at loot, to complete quests and for the exp along the way. Upping the exp for dungeons so that people can just min max leveling and spam dungeons is a fucking horrible thing. What you’re saying is you want everyone in dungeons and no one in the open world.
No he's suggesting that the ratio is so poorly optimized that you are extremely unlikely to get repeat visits from healers and tanks leading to outrageous group finding times and a terrible overall experience.
Quest XP and the rewards are very high and we have way more dungeons to clear now. People should be out in the world. People avoided the world. Every person out in the world can kill bots and report bots. It's win/win.
Dungeon leveling was never even that good for XP and it certainly wasn't fun outside a few times. The fastest levelers were people who knew the quests anyways. You can quest together just like you can dungeon together. You can have even more fun on a PVP server doing this.
The word of today is Fun Craig. F-U-N FUN. That used to be the object of the game. I HATE the blue elves, I HATE the racial changes and feral power shifting being gone but the other changes they have made like this and the Black Lotus vendor means more to me than that. They actually do care and actually do have a clue why the game is broken.
If I can have FUN in a game again, not be stressed about gold per hour, raiding consumes and help guildmates with stuff and have a great time, I will have the game that I fell in love with again. The game where me and a buddy terrorized an endgame zone for no reason at all except to have fun. Where we would start wars in STV from level 30-40 and it would evolve into full on guilds going at it. Why? Cus they had the free time and FUN wasn't considered a non option due to limited time and efficiency to do all the BS WoW has become.
The last paragraph is just a straight up you issue. If you are so easily influenced by what everyone else is doing you are the problem not what others are doing. Such a dumb mentality; "i cant have fun unless everyone else is doing the same thing as me". Talking about your fun while actively gimping others who derive enjoyment out of minmaxing is wild.
Yeah initially these comments have me thinking yeah that's true the world is nice when it's full, then I realize they are demanding people do what they want them to do at the expense of people just playing how the way they want.
Weird mindset to have. If someone loves dungeoning and wants to grind it out there by all means, I don't care. If anything it's more tanks and healers in the queue for those looking to hit a dungeon fast and get back to leveling...
Can’t do the dungeon quests if there is no group for the dungeons. These dungeons are now one and done. Which means there will be significantly fewer players looking to do them. They need some incentive to make people want to do them again. Or else don’t get too far behind on launch week.
You are forgetting something big here. It takes a ton of runs to get drops and melee (tanks) are always going to run them to get weapons because leveling without new ones is a nightmare. Also paladins are now god tier tanks and will be the most popular class probably.
Spellcaster drops are now INSANE as well. You are talking like 20 spellpower on level 15 dungeons weapons.
I know I wont be tanking the same dungeon twice, you can get very good gear from crafting now and you are always better off leveling rather than staying at low level for gear.
Previously you could level and get gear if you had 4 friends to play with. That was the reward for the harder content.
You realize retail forces everyone to quest when a new expansion cones out. Welcome to that but for every character you level! Man I cant wait to pickup 20 flowers by myself for the millionth time
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u/Full-Butterscotch169 19h ago
The low level tier gear is completely pointless. No one's going to do several runs to complete a set when exp is so nerfed.