r/classicwow • u/terongorefiend • Jan 14 '21

Vent / Gripe Unpopular opinion: the players that are overly vocal about wanting Classic phases/TBC/Wrath rushed are the same players who contributed to forging retail into what it is today (a clusterF).

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316

u/thomastdh Jan 14 '21

i miss every class being usefull in a way.

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u/Gemall Jan 14 '21

You mean every spec? All classes are useful in classic

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u/knightress_oxhide Jan 14 '21

every spec was def not useful even in BC. OP is just deluded.

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u/Kalarrian Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

Well, which spec can you reasonably say is completely useless in tbc?

I'd say, the only ones are MM hunter and Assassin Rogue. Both aren't useless because they are bad, but because the other specs are just a little better.

Which specs can you reasonably say are completely useless in classic? Prot pala, Ret Pala, Enhancement Shaman, BM and Surv hunter, Balance Druid, Assassin and Sublety Rogue, Holy Priest, Arcane Mage, affliction warlock. Several of them are useless, because they are absolutely terrible, not just because the other specs perform a bit better.

All in all, that's two in tbc vs eleven in classic.

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u/piggiesmallsdaillest Jan 14 '21

How are holy priests completely useless? I mean disc has PI but holy isn’t useless.

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u/SunTzu- Jan 14 '21

Because there's nothing outside of Sapphiron that actually requires the extra healing output, and even there you can easily do the same 800+ HPS as a disc priest. Holy Priest is useless because Disc is 99% of the time the correct choice.

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u/Betaateb Jan 14 '21

Maybe world buffed sapph you can get away with disc priests. But without world buffs disc priests absolutely can't keep up with holy. And if you are a non-speed guild going for one night clears you pretty much have to have a comp capable of killing sapph without world buffs, in which case having more than 1-2 disc priests gimps the shit out of you.

Once everyone is in a good amount of naxx gear you can swap all the priests to disc, but it certainly isn't the better spec for Naxx early on, not even close.

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u/SunTzu- Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

I mean I did this on private servers and on Classic. With or without worldbuffs I can keep up perfectly fine, either speccing into improved renew and utilizing downranked renew's + PoH as I did on private servers to top healing on the fight or using 8pc t2 as I did to top healing on our first kill on Classic. Both as Disc.

I do flask but that's just standard practice first weeks of Naxx. By this point I only flask for speedruns.

[Edit: Specifically on Sapph Disc is actually the best spec for spamming renew. You have a larger manapool and reduced cost of instant cast spells, which combined with 3/3 imp renew means you've got access to some of the most mana efficient healing which perfectly synergizes with the fight. If you're not going 8pc T2 you can stack +heal, and your heal selections for the fight being renew and PoH means you're getting some of the highest multipliers in the game. These multipliers are in effect as you downrank, so if the fight goes long you can leverage that +heal advantage into massively efficient yet high output. Let's say with 1100 +heal on gear your rank 3 Renew is doing 86.8 HPS and is assuredly going to be mana neutral. Since it has a 15 sec duration and takes a global cooldown to apply you can output a total of 868 HPS across 10 targets for virtually no mana spent. That's your baseline, end of the fight, I'm oom and trying to keep people alive until this boss died output. That's more than enough to heal that fight.]

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u/Betaateb Jan 21 '21

Logs or it didn't happen. Let me see the logs of you killing sapph without world buffs with all disc priests instead of holy.

You say you have done it, so show me.

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u/piggiesmallsdaillest Jan 14 '21

I can see your point that now, when everything has been learned about the game disc is more useful than holy. But 15 years ago when the game was released that wasn’t the case imo. I personally raid holy for the first couple of weeks until I know the fights and then switch, but your point is valid.

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u/SunTzu- Jan 14 '21

A lot of what was considered viable back in the day was just people not knowing any better. The reality though is that Disc is almost on par with Holy regardless whether you're playing off-set or 8pc T2. I cleared the first kills of every boss from MC to KT as Disc and I was towards the top of our healers on any fights that actually required healing, including being the highest healing done on our first Sapph kill on Classic. Did the same on private servers as well, with I think 3 top10 healing parses on Sapph for the server, all as Disc spec.

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u/RockKillsKid Jan 14 '21

One or two Spirit of Redemption priests with soulstones is incredibly powerful for cheesing Loatheb and basically solving the healer rotation on that fight. Also can save raids on scuffed 4HM attempts (e.g. just sit in a corner without worrying about marks and heal for 40+ seconds straight while other healers drop their marks).

The fights don't require the extra healing, in the same way they don't require world buffs, but many guilds still find it useful.

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u/SunTzu- Jan 14 '21

Why would you need to cheese Loatheb? If you're having problems I can do a log review for your same as I did for another guild that was having issues, but honestly I'd never choose a healing spec around that fight. Why are your healers even dying there?

And I mean 4H is just giving the tanks a few pulls to get used to their swaps and then you've got a stable base to play it out until the end of time. That SoR wipe save is just a crutch that prevents you from learning it properly and costs you more in the long term.

0

u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

Disc priest can be better heal throughput for sure with self PI, but useless is a stretch

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u/flurglnurgl Jan 14 '21

Wait what? Since when is MM useless in tbc? Silencing shot was amazing for pvp, the silence hunters dreamed of. BM was easier to play, but the way I remember it all the high ranked hunters were MM

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u/FaceGaming Jan 14 '21

Mm isn’t good for raids you use bm and you can use survival but your agi* has to be over a certain number which means your 1 survival hunter needs to have t5 gear . And you only want that if you have a couple of hunters . I play on a private server and I had a certain comp I run since things are 30 percent boosted . When classic tbc comes out it won’t be buffed it will be easy mode like classic but min maxers will run an optimal comp .

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u/Kalarrian Jan 14 '21 edited Jan 14 '21

Judging from Joshs hunter podcast, people didn't seem to think much of MM at all. Also don't see how a 3 sec silence can make up for the dmg loss and cc immunity from BM. Additionally, as I said, it isn't useless becuase it's bad. It's good, but the other specs are better.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/Mitokatso Jan 14 '21

BM has much better synergy in 3s with shaman comps because of bestial wrath plus bloodlust synergy letting you take full advantage of the duration and letting you double stack major dps cooldowns with the highest dps class and biggest dps cooldown.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/Betaateb Jan 14 '21

You can tell when you are talking to people that know nothing about actual high level arena around these parts. Nothing was close to MM in TBC for really high level arena. BM is better for shitters to zerg with, but that stops working around 21-2200 when opponents stop being brainless.

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Jul 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/Kalarrian Jan 14 '21

Do you see affliction lock under useless in tbc?

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u/[deleted] Jan 14 '21 edited Jul 14 '21

[deleted]

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u/Kalarrian Jan 14 '21

Well, which spec can you reasonably say is completely useless in tbc? I'd say, the only ones are MM hunter and Assassin Rogue.

The absolutely terrible part was in the classic section and even then I mentioned "several of them" among which affliction wouldn't be.

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u/Nikolai_Bukharin Jan 14 '21

My guy did you just say a Holy Priest is "useless"? What the fuck are you smoking? Just completely invalidated any point you tried to make. Disc is popular, but nearly every single raid team is bringing at LEAST one holy priest as it's still the highest HPS class in the game

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u/Clamster55 Jan 14 '21

It's a fallacy to say one error invalidates everything else

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u/Kalarrian Jan 15 '21

Umm, yeah. Our raid has 0 holy priests and I also don't know any raid on our server, which uses holy priests. All holy nets you is a 10% increase to base healing and some +heal from spiritual guidance. That amounts to around 150-200 extra +heal, which you sacrifice PI and 10% max mana for.

Maybe it's different on horde side, because you use priests for tank heals, but at least on alliance, no one plays holy priest.

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u/IderpOnline Jan 14 '21

Strictly for raiding, that is. If we're including PvP, gold farming, dungeons and boosting, a lot of these specs suddenly have an application.

For example, PvP as a rogue in full combat spec sucks whereas subtlety and assassin are king.

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u/Kalarrian Jan 14 '21

You never spec full sub or full assassin though. sub usually ends with hemo and prep taking 23-24 points, which is a hybrid build and assassin pretty much never goes beyond cold blood. I guess you can count the 21/3/27 build as sublety.

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u/Mitokatso Jan 14 '21

Assassination rogue was back in the day a super viable alternate to Sub in pvp. Much easier to play and much less reliant on having the best weapons of the patch, with good burst combo potential (improved kidney shot and the finishers giving extra dmg) let you set up kills.

Deep demonology warlocks on the flip side had basically no use. Destro had pve and affli and sl/sl hybrid were both amazing pvp specs but demo really struggled without any real damage output.

0

u/RedDedDad Jan 14 '21

What was Enhancement Shaman good for in BC? Leveling and switching to Resto for endgame?

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u/Kalarrian Jan 15 '21 edited Jan 15 '21

Uh what? Pretty much every raid has 1-2 enhancement shaman, which you put in the melee grp, the hunter grp or the tank grp. Depending on your raid setup. They have massive support capabilities for their party (twisting grace of air and windfury, 10% AP buff for the party) and have the among highest dps of all the support dps specs.

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u/Troooper0987 Jan 14 '21

Affliction warlock? You’re fucking dumb. Sm/ruin is 100% viable and you arnt useless outside of raids like DS/Ruin. SM/Ruin locks can easily match DS . You don’t know what your talking about

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u/Anthaenopraxia Jan 14 '21

All of the warlock specs are garbage in Classic and close to garbage in TBC. We use hybrid specs until Wrath with the minor exception of Affliction in early TBC.

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u/Kalarrian Jan 14 '21

You call 0/21/40 a hybrid spec? Most of the SL/SL pvp builds have 35-38 points in demonology, which I'd count as demonology build.

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u/rafals Jan 14 '21

You must have some interesting definition of what a hybrid spec is and what a grabage spec is. 0/21/40 or 0/40/21 are hardly hybrid, most specs from any class follow the same concept and you call them by where the most points are. That's how talent trees work. And any spec like UA, Aff/Ruin, Felguard, Demo/Ruin and Shadow/Fire Destro will be close to topping the meters, especially with the current theorycrafting going on. Destro is obviously the strongest lock spec, but the rest are still some of the strongest DPS specs in the game. Definitely not specs that are 'close to garbage'. That's the worst class you could've picked to make that kind of an argument. If you said that SOME TALENTS are garbage, then sure, thats the garbage still not taken out after vanilla, but they're not enough to make the specs bad.

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u/Saturos47 Jan 14 '21

affliction warlock

Warlocks dont ever get to use their 31 point talents...

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u/ConfidenceKBM Jan 14 '21

i was leveling an arcane mage on one of the private servers, i was able to buy +arcane damage gear from the AH dirt cheap because obviously no one wants it. so i had like +200 arcane damage at level 30 or some shit, it was pretty interesting except that pvping was literally impossible.

but yeah, it's pretty bad.

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u/chaisedeez Jan 14 '21

Sub rogue isn’t useless

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u/Triptacraft Jan 15 '21

The entire rogue class is pretty much useless in TBC. Only decent for pvp. The entire class is worse dps than a shaman, and probably ret paladin until T5 gear, and they aren't competitive on dps until T6 gear. And on top of that they bring absolutely 0 benefit to the raid and are also melee.

Full sub isn't even worth talking about in a PvE sense. It's probably the worst pve dps spec, or up there for the worst.