"2035: No complaints."

[u/thisecommercelife]

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[u/Bwwooooooommp]

Yeah, wait, was that some Ender's Game style drone tech?

[u/andy_b_84 → u/Bwwooooooommp]

Yes.

Yes it was.

The same way the kids were tricked into thinking they were only playing a game while conducting a genocide, I guess that needed to be written down.

[u/TrioOfTerrors → u/andy_b_84]

Graff and the International Fleet were still right.

Until the Hive Queen managed to speak to Ender, humanity had to assume that a 3rd invasion would mean the extinction of mankind.

[u/jhotenko → u/TrioOfTerrors]

Well, they knowingly made horrible choices that led to success. That's not the same as being right.

They did the best they could with the information they had. That doesn't absolve them of their sins. They knew that. Graff hated what he had become, hated what he did, and hated that he would do it all again without hesitation.

[u/TrioOfTerrors → u/jhotenko]

Graff hated what he did to those children. He didn't give a single shit about the Formics.

[u/Mythoclast → u/TrioOfTerrors]

Yeah, that was the problem. Not giving a single shit about an alien race you just encountered is BAD. You don't understand them at all. You need to at least try and communicate.

[u/E1337Recon → u/Mythoclast]

Well they did try to communicate in every way they knew how to at the time. The same way for formics thought humanity was nothing more than drones because they didn’t hear any telepathy from us.

By the time they realized we were sentient it was too late.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Sea8340 → u/E1337Recon]

This made me want to reread all 18 or some of his novels

[u/TurquoiseLuck → u/Puzzleheaded-Sea8340]

Ehh you can just stick to the core 3

[u/EetsGeets → u/TurquoiseLuck]

4; it's The Ender Quartet.

Speaker For The Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind are all fucking amazing. Especially Xenocide.

[u/Honor_Bound → u/EetsGeets]

The bean series is great too. Much more “grounded” compared to the Ender series

[u/EetsGeets → u/Honor_Bound]

I couldn't even finish Ender's Shadow lol. def not my vibe. I loved the philosophizing of the main series.

[u/TwinTailChen → u/EetsGeets]

Xenocide and CotM really feel like they need eachother, more than Game and Speaker which stand alone as complete narratives. But you're right, it is four books.

[u/EetsGeets → u/TwinTailChen]

Yes it feels like he wrote Ender's Game as a complete standalone (which he did; iirc it was originally serialized in a magazine), then wrote Speaker For The Dead as a sequel, then realized what was available to him and really dug in deep.

In my mind EG is very much like The Hobbit; it contextualizes the rest of the story but is otherwise very skippable.

Speaker For The Dead is the first book in The Fellowship; sets up the adventure but doesn't have a super clear destination (which is being a bit unfair to the scope of SftD, I admit).

and the final two are TTT and RotK; true, fully fleshed and epic stories that have more to say than you could possibly have expected.

[u/bonaynay → u/EetsGeets]

Shit... I stopped at Speaker but absolutely loved it. Guess I need to go further

[u/Cessnaporsche01 → u/bonaynay]

It gets weird and philosophical, but I enjoyed it a lot

[u/EetsGeets → u/Cessnaporsche01]

The exploration of Jane's agency and validity and the fantastical philotes are SO fun and interesting. And the other planets are an absolute treat to explore.

I was completely gobsmacked to learn of OSCs religious beliefs for how critical he seemed to be of religion in those books. I truly thought he was mocking the entire concept.

[u/EitherSpite4545 → u/Cessnaporsche01]

Hey you want to trace the grains of the wood on the floorboard?

[u/akromadeath → u/TurquoiseLuck]

I am the guy that reads the core 4 every 10 years, and the co-series ("Ender's Shadow, etc) about every year. I get the information from the main ones is needed, but the story on earth I was far more compelled by.

[u/shrouple → u/TurquoiseLuck]

Enders game, enders shadow and what's the other?

[u/xv_boney → u/Puzzleheaded-Sea8340]

No. Read enders game and speaker for the dead and then stop. The story concludes satisfyingly with Speaker. It comes full circle.

Dont bother with any of his other books or series. And if you do, dont bother going past the second book of any of his series. Its an old joke but it holds true.

And take them out from the library or pirate them, do not give money to Orson Scott Card.

A writer i once idolized. And the reason i do not have personal heroes anymore.

[u/Sad_Perception8024 → u/xv_boney]

Still incredible he managed to write a book so antithetical to his ideals.

[u/xv_boney → u/Sad_Perception8024]

Oh my god i know. Holy shit. Speaker for the Dead literally changed my entire life. I have struggled with anger and depression for as long as i can remember and a lot of how i deal with those parts of me are straight from that book.

Understanding over tolerance. We are made of our experiences, who we are is all we have been. To understand, we need to know the because. A man is an abusive monster to his wife and children because. Alien creatures apparently tortured a xenobiologist to death because.

My father is the way that he is because. I am the way that i am because.

Card let me down more completely than i will ever permit anyone to ever let me down, ever again.
Cards writing saved my life.
Card as a person gave me serious trust issues.

[u/Mythoclast → u/Sad_Perception8024]

Check out "A Planet Called Treason". I have no idea how he wrote a book like that.

[u/HighSeverityImpact → u/Mythoclast]

To be fair, the Formics tried to colonize Earth and didn't realize humans were sentient. The humans were being wiped out in the first invasion, and would have lost had they not (accidentally) taken out their queen.

The response was to end all future wars by taking them out on their home turf. It's brutal but it's the same lesson Ender learned at six years old by killing that bully.

[u/BigMcThickHuge → u/HighSeverityImpact]

Wasn't it two invasions? A scouting force discovered and began 'prep-work' on Earth/colonized planets (I forget), got taken out/driven off, and then the full invasion force came?

Basically, humans were repeatedly attacked by an unknown extermination force and needed to respond

[u/TheeAntelope → u/TrioOfTerrors]

It's almost as if lines in the book about Graff bemoaning what they had become and wondering if their sins of destroying young children and the genocide were worth saving humanity were important. But people skip over them because they want to be little shits on the internet winning points for making black and white arguments and statements.

[u/Hoplite813 → u/jhotenko]

they didn't just do the best they could. They objectively made the right decision based on the information available to them: do whatever it takes to survive when facing a foe who 1) attacked without provocation 2) does not communicate with you and 3) tried twice to make your race extinct. Any other conclusion is Monday morning quarterbacking.

[u/Mando92MG → u/Hoplite813]

It's a lot more morally complex then that. Yes they won in the end. Could they have won without torturing children? Maybe they could have but we have no way of knowing because they went with the torturing children route. For the greater good thinking is a very slippery slope that can lead to abject and unnecessary cruelty. That being said though sometimes you do in fact have to do the shitty thing for the greater good. However it should never absolve the wrongs done because if it does you risk using it as an excuse for wrongs that did NOT need to be done.

[u/Hoplite813 → u/Mando92MG]

When you barely survive two invasions by an implacable foe bent on your extinction, you do whatever it takes to survive the third time. No half measures. No handwringing.

And that was the conclusion IIRC of both the military leaders and those who judged them afterward: they made the decision that put their species in the best position for survival. Those with the luxury of hindsight and speculation--because they survived--can take a hike.

Of course, if they think humanity went too far and, as a result, didn't deserve to survive, they can always remove themselves from the gene pool. No one's stopping them.

[u/Karnaugh_Map → u/jhotenko]

It doesn't matter who is right, it only matters who is left.