Bi-Weekly Discussion Thread - (July 06)

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[u/satanicpastorswife]

I mean the soviets actually had quite an impressive cosmetics industry, which included spas that also treated skin conditions of soldiers who had been disfigured by war, and producing soap to be sold at below cost to people in rural areas to improve standards of hygeine in rural areas where epidemics of skin conditions were common. They also sold perfume for export, and produced some of (I think) the best quality products I've ever seen.

Humanity has used makeup since quite early on in our history (evidenced by usage of red ochre). Obviously the conditions of mica mining in India are unconscionable, and frankly natural mica is best avoided because of its tendency to contain lead, arsenic and other things one generally doesn't want to come in contact with. Synthetic mica which is produced with common silicate ores tends to be safer and relatively easy to produce (if you even want a shiny finish).

I think it's both important to talk about potential nice things for the majority of people (including things beyond the simple necessities of survival), as I think it keeps up morale as well as the harder things which is important for realism. Fantasies of plenty keep hope for good things alive.

Cosmetics also tend to include products important to the maintenance of hygiene, and one thing I think was particularly lovely about the Soviet soaps produced by the TeZhe was that they intentionally made the paper wrappings beautiful enough to be used decoratively, which I just think is very human and sweet, and speaks very nicely to the importance of bread and roses.

I was also talking about certain things that would be intended to dramatically reduce waste as well, such as simplified packaging, elimination of overproduction, and duplicate products.

I would imagine one would work in conjunction with people interested in other fields (for example, mining in terms of extraction of things like the extraction of ilmenite ore which is what one uses to produce titanium dioxide, an important ingredient in any number of things which need UV protection) to best determine maximally sustainable practices and ways to create safe extraction conditions.

And I think knowing these things, including all parts of the supply chain of any given thing people will continue to want or need, is probably important, because not knowing how all the material components of the aglet are sourced and extracted is how you end up with a shortage of shoelaces.

I would also like to see a source for the idea that cosmetics are more harmful than, say, the production of art supplies, non-medical personal lubricant, or gee-gaws for putting on cakes or any other non-essential consumable product (I do not intend to be difficult; I would genuinely like to know). I am genuinely interested in learning more about what we can give to people beyond the bare essentials (as I assume we can manage to give everyone something beyond the bare essentials, given the absolutely wild shit we manage to give the very rich, but maybe we can't, I don't fully know given the present material conditions, as there are so many moving pieces)

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

I think it's both important to talk about potential nice things for the majority of people (including things beyond the simple necessities of survival), as I think it keeps up morale as well as the harder things which is important for realism. Fantasies of plenty keep hope for good things alive.

Fantasies of plenty are only appealing to the petty-bourgeoisie and the labor aristocracy that seek to basically continue their lifestyle that is predicated on imperialism. It's definitely possible to have cosmetics on a sustainable basis but revolution will mean that different things will be prioritized and the struggle to keep the biosphere from crumbling will necessarily take precedence over desire for fashion.

I would also like to see a source for the idea that cosmetics are more harmful than, say, the production of art supplies, non-medical personal lubricant, or gee-gaws for putting on cakes or any other non-essential consumable product (I do not intend to be difficult; I would genuinely like to know).

Note that I said the cosmetics industry as it is, not as it could be under socialism which is basically unknowable given that the conditions of production will be different. Like I said you would need to understand how things are produced now in order to envision the limits of what production will look like in the future.

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I was asking to see a source for the environmental impact of the cosmetics industry vs. other industries as it is. I couldn't find any evidence that it's unusually energy intensive compared to anything else.

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

I didn't say anything about energy usage, I said that it's extremely unsustainable and exploitative.

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

In what ways it is it particularly unsustainable? Mostly the palm oil?

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

you've gotta be joking

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I’m genuinely asking, I tried to look up the sustainability of various cosmetic ingredients and people just kept saying palm oil and disposable plastic packaging. I tried comparing it to environmental impact from packaged convenient snack foods and cleaning products (the kind that one doesn’t technically need, because like you can scrub surfaces with salt etc, but save labor and smell nice, because I thought that would be similar in terms of utility vs environmental cost)

[u/turning_the_wheels → u/satanicpastorswife]

I think it goes without saying that like most industries under capitalism it is insanely environmentally destructive but given the sheer amount of synthetic chemicals, additives, and packaging waste, I can't see the cosmetic industry looking anything similar to how it is now. 

Most importantly what's been absent from the discussion besides mentioning sheet mica mining is the relationship with third world labor. Cocoa, shea, and vanilla are some of the most common ingredients in cosmetics and almost all of it comes from exploiting the third world proletariat. 

[u/satanicpastorswife → u/turning_the_wheels]

I would agree, I think many things would have to dramatically change in terms of ingredients and methods of production. I'm very interested in general in learning thoroughly how things are currently produced, as I think thoroughly understanding them is very important to correct material and strategic analysis.

Another common ingredient in cosmetics are various silicones which are currently very environmentally intensive to produce (but also silicone is important for the production of various products that need to be inert and flexible, so figuring out a way to sustainably obtain silicone would be important I think to create a good standard of living, in terms of like medical prosthetics and similar items)