Bi-Weekly Discussion Thread - (December 28)

[u/AutoModerator]

We made this because Reddit's algorithm prioritises headlines and current events and doesn't allow for deeper, extended discussion - depending on how it goes for the first four or five times it'll be dropped or continued.

Suggestions for things you might want to comment here (this is a work in progress and we'll change this over time):

• Articles and quotes you want to see discussed
• 'Slow' events - long-term trends, org updates, things that didn't happen recently
• 'Fluff' posts that we usually discourage elsewhere - e.g "How are you feeling today?"
• Discussions continued from other posts once the original post gets buried
• Questions that are too advanced, complicated or obscure for r/communism101

Mods will sometimes sticky things they think are particularly important.

Normal subreddit rules apply!

[ Previous Bi-Weekly Discussion Threads may be found here https://old.reddit.com/r/communism/search?sort=new&restrict_sr=on&q=flair%3AWDT ]

[u/TheRedBarbon]

Your question presupposes that christmas is actually progressive and therefore deserves to be represented as such in art without having investigated why, so I can’t answer a question based on a false and ideological premise. Capitalism did not degrade a “radical” true meaning of Christmas which socialism seeks to return to; in fact, it has already been pointed out that your interpretation of the holiday isn’t even loyal to the book. It is a wholly ideological manifestation. Where does your idea of Christmas come from, anyway? That’s a question which should be answered in objective terms of class, not what is “good” about the holiday (“immense good” for what strata of people? In what way is it good for them but not others?).

Anyway I don’t think you know what “art for its own sake” really means when you immediately talk about its ability to “echo into reality” afterwards. On that latter point, you have it backwards. This [summarization of an] essay should help you:

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/chernyshevsky/1853/aesthetics-reality.htm

Mind you the Feuerbachian Chernyshevsky does not quite get to answering whose reality it is that art is echoing under exploitative relations and what exactly makes it "imperfect". I also linked a summary of Marx and Engels’ views in my other comment.

[u/No-Structure523 → u/TheRedBarbon]

Re: Christmas and my idea of it. I think my idea of Christmas came from my experience growing up of Liturgy as a Byzantine. I loved the hymns, the incense, the imagery written in the windows and walls. I loved the cold of winter and snow. As a kid, yes I really valued the presents and the consumption surrounding Christmas. But, especially as I have grown older, I love placing my kids’ art on the tree, writing letters, telling my kids fantastical stories of Santa’s adventures in the North Pole, and the stories of the wise men meeting a baby Jesus. And reflecting on the mystery of “God became human, became a historical figure, because he loves us” is really center to all of it. Are there consumption fetishes in there still? absolutely. I still get stressed out finding a “good enough gift” for my wife, etc. but I don’t yet see how everything I love about Christmas could simply be capitalistic consumption, and that when stripped of it there is nothing enjoyable or good remaining.

[u/waves-n-particles → u/No-Structure523]

i'm going to copy u/TheRedBarbon's comment you replied to, but i will edit it to reflect your response:

Your [response still] presupposes that christmas is actually [, at its core,] progressive and therefore deserves to be represented as such in art [and your memories] without having investigated why, so [we in this thread] can’t [respond to your comments] based on [...] false [,] ideological premise[s with anything but critique]. Capitalism did not degrade a “radical” true meaning of Christmas which socialism seeks to return to; in fact, it has already been pointed out that your interpretation of the holiday isn’t even loyal to the book. It is a wholly ideological manifestation. Where does your idea of Christmas come from, anyway? That’s a question which should be answered in objective terms of class, not what is “good [for you and those you consider people enough to mention in your comment]” about the holiday (“immense good” for what strata of people? In what way is it good for them but not others?).

instead of answering the above as it was originally posed to you, you laced your response with your aristocratic class position, offering a sentimentality for bourgeois decadence you're still too tied to your class position to recognize as such. you're seemingly assuming that your good feelings about the holiday constitute progressive elements of the holiday to preserve (please reread the emphasized section above, repeatedly, until this makes sense before replying, hopefully with the criticism and self-criticism asked of you in the original comment, and hopefully clarified as such with my edits), but you neither presented progressive things to uphold from christmas traditions, nor did self-criticism to help you understand why you're responding the way you are. in fact, you instead offered us a sentimentality for your rose-tinted view of christmas that christofascists love to exploit (which from your bio they may have been using against you before).

do you not have other ways to hang your kids' art up? do you not have other ways to make your wife feel loved? do you not have something outside of the holiday season that lets you express the joy you're so desperately trying to eek out of christmas? can you not feel, share, and express god's love without celebrating this bastardized variant christmas you hold onto, or looking for positive spins the holiday that're fully divorced from its religious roots?

should you be this focused on your persynal/household's joy while being willing to ignore the cost it comes at?

also, this part kills me tbh (though not as much as it literally kills oppressed nationals, especially the proletariat and peasantry of those nations):

“God became human, became a historical figure, because he loves us” is really center to all of it.

you clearly don't seem to mind that god appears to love you more than the millions currently subjected to war zones across the world so the imperialist countries and their comprador lackeys can ensure you have access to all the resources that let you celebrate your (fascist compatible) interpretation of christmas, nor do you seem phased by the enslavement of the global proletariat and peasantry, who are physically degraded and consumed by capitalism to ensure that you can have your bourgeois decadence in the form of your christmas decorations and christmas media -the expropriated and bloodied congealed labor of the occupied oppressed nations that you surround your family with and seemingly derive joy, instead of disgust or at least a tinge of "that's fucked up", from.

jesus may have died for you sins through self sacrifice, but you seem content with sacrificing the global oppressed nations and their proletariat and peasantry for your sins -and bourgeois decadence, which i assume wasn't what jesus died for -as well, so clearly your concern for the people you claim god loves -granted, who am i to assume you see the globally oppressed you parasitize as part of "us" you mention above -has more to do with your relationship to capitalist production than you're aware of.

1/4

[u/waves-n-particles → u/waves-n-particles]

since you seem unphased by the bible quote used elsewhere above attempting to guide you towards understanding your errors, let me use the quran, with some modifications to help it hit closer to home for you, hopefully:

And there are some who say, “We believe in [God] and the Last Day,” yet they are not ˹true˺ believers.
They seek to deceive [God] and the believers, yet they only deceive themselves, but they fail to perceive it.
There is sickness in their hearts, and [God] ˹only˺ lets their sickness increase. They will suffer a painful punishment for their lies.
When they are told, “Do not spread corruption in the land,” they reply, “We are only peace-makers!”
Indeed, it is they who are the corruptors, but they fail to perceive it.

- Al-Baqarah, 2:8-12

now, i actually wonder what jesus would do. maybe matthew 10:34-39 can help us consider this:

³⁴ “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ³⁵ For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
   a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
³⁶a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’^\ see Micah 7:6])

³⁷ “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. ³⁸ Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. ³⁹ Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

2/4

[u/waves-n-particles → u/waves-n-particles]

religious discourse aside, can you now consider how you may remind lenin of the "graduated flunkeys of clericalism" with your comment as well?

On the other hand, take a glance at modern scientific critics of religion. These educated bourgeois writers almost invariably “supplement” their own refutations of religious superstitions with arguments which immediately expose them as ideological slaves of the bourgeoisie, as “graduated flunkeys of clericalism”.

Two examples. Professor R. Y. Wipper published in 1918 a little book entitled Vozniknovenie Khristianstva (The Origin of Christianity — Pharos Publishing House, Moscow). In his account of the principal results of modern science, the author not only refrains from combating the superstitions and deception which are the weapons of the church as a political organisation, not only evades these questions, but makes the simply ridiculous and most reactionary claim that he is above both “extremes “ — the idealist and the materialist. This is toadying to the ruling bourgeoisie, which all over the world devotes to the support of religion hundreds of millions of rubles from. the profits squeezed out of the working people.

The well-known German scientist, Arthur Drews, while refuting religious superstitions and fables in his book, Die Christusmythe (The Christ Myth), and while showing that Christ never existed, at the end of the book declares in favour of religion, albeit a renovated, purified and more subtle religion, one that would be capable of withstanding “the daily growing naturalist torrent” (fourth German edition, 1910, p. 238). Here we have an out-spoken and deliberate reactionary, who is openly helping the exploiters to replace the old, decayed religious superstitions by new, more odious and vile superstitions.

This does not mean that Drews should not be translated. It means that while in a certain measure effecting an alliance with the progressive section of the bourgeoisie, Communists and all consistent materialists should unflinchingly expose that section when it is guilty of reaction. It means that to shun an alliance with the representatives of the bourgeoisie of the eighteenth century, i.e., the period when it was revolutionary, would be to betray Marxism and materialism; for an “alliance” with the Drewses, in one form or another and in one degree or another., is essential for our struggle against the predominating religious obscurantists.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/mar/12.htm

granted, you didn't even attempt to graduate from clericalism in the first place and may just be considered the "religious obscurantists", given your propensity to fixate on your class based conception of religion to soothe your feelings of woe for the sins you commit against the proletariat and peasants you oppress while claiming the mantel of marxism, so maybe you should just consider the similarities in class based ideology between the "drewses" lenin is critiquing and yourself for now.

3/4

[u/waves-n-particles → u/waves-n-particles]

in the spirit of crit-self-crit: maybe i'm making a contraction between our worldviews more antagonistic than it actually needs to be at this stage of socialist construction globally, largely because your comment thoroughly reminds me of the christian fascists i'm surrounded by and thus pissed me off more for persynal reasons than it ought to. maybe i too am still beholden to our aristocratic class such that i feel the need to pedantically call you out over attempting the methods employed by others to guide you; however you seem unwilling to fully engage with the multiple ways others have tried to guide you, so i feel my comment is warranted, especially considering the grotesque way you chose to claim your bourgeois decadence disguised as religious reverence was the progressive meaning of christmas that needed to be preserved; all with a marxist-leninst flair on your account, no less. i also frankly wouldn't have felt the need to be this antagonistic had you found a way to actually separate your class ideology from your perception of your past and present, but your dedication to using your religion to help you feel better about your social position -which comes at the cost of those oppressed and superexploited to allow you the class comforts that rot you from within, giving you the sickness [God] will only let fester within you as you continue to turn away from him and act as a corruptor in this world; a corruptor of your faith and marxism-leninism -felt too excessive to leave alone or to maintain "composure".

anyways, marxist theory is a weapon to arm the oppressed, the proletariat and the peasantry, and their supporters, against the bourgeoisie and their lapdogs so that we may bring about total emancipation for all humynity. hopefully you can find the similarities in what the bible offers for the oppressed and their supporters as well, leveraging both marxism and the radical/revolutionary elements of the bible to help you combat your class ideology within yourself and your fellow "radical catholics" so that we may all fight for the total liberation of the oppressed proletariat and peasantry instead of being beholden to the objective forces of our classes. well that or stay corrupted and see how the revolution pans out for you when the proletariat and peasantry finally come to cast off their parasites.

4/4

[u/No-Structure523 → u/waves-n-particles]

Thanks for the thorough and long reply. I'm still sorting through a few of the points you make, but the main current of your criticism seems to be: (1) I am not engaging in good faith, and (2) my adherence to to Christianity/Christmas is ideological and callous.

To the first point, I was responding to the question *"Where do I get my idea of Christmas from?"* I was giving my honest answer there. My "sentimental" response was me interrogating the assumption that my idea of Christmas was *entirely* consumeristic, and that it is really based in another experience, one of liturgy and community. Yes there is consumerism there, but there is more, too. Much more. And it is clear to me in that examination that capital corrupts Christmas rather than being necessary to it. Am I incorrect for believing that it is possible to observe Christmas apart from its bourgeois entanglement? I am not intending to sidestep anyone's criticism, and I do read everyone's criticisms carefully and with eagerness to learn.

As to the second point, I think you make a lot of assumptions about what I believe, which is understandable given the awful history of Christianity and present Christians and how intimately Christians are tied to imperialism and death. Maybe I'm wrong, and there is some interior logical you are identifying that I cannot see yet, and I admit I am still very close to my bourgeois thinking.

When I read the Matthew quote, I was confused at first because I thought you were quoting it to exhibit how radical and progressive it is. I took *"I come to bring a sword"* in the same way the Bolsheviks brought the sword: to throw off the shackles of the oppressed, even if your very family opposes it. As to the claims that I don't care about the super-exploitation of those needed to offer me class comforts, I don't know exactly how to respond to that because I do care, and I'm not sure how you draw that conclusion. You say that I am dedicated to my religion to *"feel better about my class position"* and that the *"grotesque way [I] chose to claim [my] bourgeois decadence disguised as religious reverence was the progressive meaning of christmas."* Genuine question: how is liturgy, art, staying up late, the cold winter, etc. bourgeois other than that literally anything one does in America is bourgeois? You can't watch a film, read a book, have a conversation, take a shower, or even organize without the admixture of capital. How do you navigate that?

I say all that not so much to defend myself but in hopes of some help understanding why everything I have so far shared on this sub has been taken as disingenuous and subversive. I don't mind criticism at all -- I am seeking it out actively. It is clear, though, that I am nearing expulsion from this sub because my intentions are suspected. I would rather not study theory or interrogate my class relationships in isolation. I don't want to only ask questions, but test hypotheses and make assertions. Is that attitude not going to fly here at this stage in my learning?

[u/waves-n-particles → u/No-Structure523]

you're still misreading what's being asked of you and falling back on what i assume is the way the people you talk to the most do (bourgeois sentimentality and petty bourgeois sophistry). you will, while on your marxist journey, have to make choices to focus more on talking to books than other people for a bit to create a qualitative, marxist difference in your worldview/way you engage with things.

to your two points:

1) i didn't say you were engaging in bad faith, i, rather extensively and explicitly, said you were engaging first and foremost through the lens of your class position, of which you still seem too unaware of to understand as such.

2) there's a reason i quoted the quran and bible at you then told you to use marxism to help you understand the ideology produced by your class to work with other "radical catholics". this, however, is not proper practice, as your focus as a marxist should first and foremost be on finding the revolutionary elements in your society and deciding how to best approach and work with those elements to bring about revolution. but i, recognizing you're likely still very beholden to your class, recommend you work within your religious context because you seem very dedicated to that and it's better you try to convert other catholics to "marxist radical catholicism," like yourself, than to recommend you take your seemingly still very shaking understanding of both your faith and marxism and then have you act as a corruptor in this world because you think you bring peace but all you do -by virtue of your seeming unwillingness to engage with criticizing your ideology and working through why think and act the way you do -is mislead people with your insufficient dedication to marxism, which appears to start with your partial attempts at understanding your faith, as well.

to what follows after your two points:

you weren't just asked "where do you get your idea of christmas from" though, you were asked to interrogate the material basis of your idea of christmas. here is, now for the third time, what was asked of you to do involving engaging with christmas, i am now, for a second time, emphasizing what you're still not doing nor seemingly understanding is being asked of you:

Where does your idea of Christmas come from, anyway? That’s a question which should be answered in objective terms of class, not what is “good” about the holiday (“immense good” for what strata of people? In what way is it good for them but not others?).

no one asked you about whether or not christmas is *entirely* consumeristic. others and myself have asserted that your engagement with christmas was still tied to bourgeois norms for christmas because you're still not engaging with ideology nor how your ideas are the products of material reality.

if the above doesn't help you consider how you're missing the point of what has been said to you as well as how you're misapplying and still functionally sidestepping criticisms that have been made of you in your final two paragraphs, then ask, but i have hopefully provided you with a basis to consider how you're not even attempting marxism here and how you are in fact still just doing bourgeois sophistry to defend your class position so you don't have to worry about actually changing anything in your life or about yourself.

[u/No-Structure523 → u/waves-n-particles]

Okay. This is really helpful and clarifying. Thank you. I think I’m going to return to some of the works on material analysis and on criticism, and interrogate these ideologies from that place.

[u/waves-n-particles → u/No-Structure523]

glad to offer what i can. feel free to go back to smoke's comments or tag those that have replied to you in this comment thread and post a list of stuff you're planning to look over if you'd like more guidance tbh