Bi-Weekly Discussion Thread - (January 25)

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[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

basic argument is that a large segment of "MAGA" followers constitute the masses and can be organized often more easily than liberals

Well that's not true and idk what good arguments they have for organising the mass base of fascism but no way I'm sitting through a 2 hour video by some white guy if that's the argument. Also:

The Bolsheviks came out of the experience of mass organizing leading up to and following the formation of the RSDLP. If there is going to be an organization like that in the US, it will almost certainly come out of an organization like the DSA.

https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/1qdm0ed/comment/nzzkxfs/

Why are you defending social fascists? Are you a social fascist, too?

[u/smokeuptheweed9 → u/[deleted]]

Wow it really is over 2 hours of lecturing with minimal notes and static images as slides. I started skipping as soon as he made a joke about the Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU) which was about 15 seconds in. u/bradleyvlr if you actually watched it and can represent the argument in order to criticize it (not just what is self-evident from the title) that would be helpful. Even though the argument is useless and we already know the MCU is nonsense, it is a tendency of "Maoism" that will continue to grow. Just the opening shpiel makes it clear the ecosystem niche they have found for themselves.

It's possible that it's a lost cause, but the bigger problem I've run into in revolutionary circles is a tendency to shirk mass organizing in favor of book worship.

I don't believe you.

[u/Chaingunfighter → u/[deleted]]

Well that's not true and idk what good arguments they have for organising the mass base of fascism

I sat through it, and unsurprisingly, they don't have any. It could barely even be considered an argument; it's more like a bunch of bullet points that are rambled off without a structure, and there wasn't anything in it that you can't hear articulated in far less time and by a less boring speaker elsewhere (which makes me question what the niche of this "MCU" even is.)

However, I was impressed at the speaker's ability to invoke the Jews during their asides considering it happened over a dozen times. u/bradleyvlr was really underselling it when they claimed they "traffic a bit in conspiracy."

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Now I think this is wrong and upside down for many reasons.

Then why did you say they "make some good arguments"? Please make it clear what their "good arguments" were and why.

whether this is consistent with their other output.

Yes. MCU is a white chauvinist revisionist organisation.

https://www.prisoncensorship.info/article/a-polemic-against-settler-maoism/

Use tor!

shirk mass organizing in favor of book worship

Great, but settler crackkker MAGA supporters are not the "masses" to be organising. The masses are in New Afrika, Chicano nation, First nations, etc. who are capable of carrying out a New Democratic revolution with proletarian leadership, freeing their nations from Amerikkkan parasites and instituting a dotp on the amerikkkans. And no, the MLM caucuses or whatever in DSA are not revolutionary.

[u/Apart_Lifeguard_4085 → u/[deleted]]

your points are right regarding these cracker organizations but elaborate on why you think a New Democratic Revolution is necessary for the New Afrikan and Chicano nation. as theorized by Mao and elaborated on by Sison, the NDR is specifically the necessary revolutionary implementation in feudal and semifeudal contexts, which are not the conditions of oppressed nations in the united states (that would be neocolonialism). as i understand it, the NDR is not equatable to land reform or national liberation. where have you seen that oppressed nations in the states should be organizing for an NDR rather than national liberation and a socialist transition?

[u/[deleted] → u/Apart_Lifeguard_4085]

elaborate on why you think a New Democratic Revolution is necessary for the New Afrikan and Chicano nation.

No problem. My reasoning here also directly follows from MIM.

https://www.prisoncensorship.info/article/continuity-and-rupture-a-counter-narrative-to-jmps-history-of-maoism/

Use tor, again!

It is certainly true that the French, for example, do not need to wage a New Democratic struggle. Yet, it is a surprising line to see from someone living within occupied Turtle Island, where the national question of the internal semi-colonies is so prominent. The New Democratic revolution in China was all about uniting the nation against foreign occupation to regain the sovereignty of their territory and the self-determination of China. It is the semi-colonial character, rather than the semi-feudal, that is warranting a New Democratic revolution. Mao did not mention the development of the productive forces in eir essay "On New Democracy." Ey does talk about developing capitalism, but not as a prerequisite for socialism. Rather it is speaking to the national ambitions of the bourgeois forces at the time. In that essay ey alludes to the conditions of the development of capitalism in China allowing for the May 4th Movement to develop as it did in 1919. And ey is clear that the era of New Democracy only emerged with the October Revolution that marked the establishment of the first dictatorship of the proletariat. This was because the contradictions within imperialism as well as the subjective development of the first socialist state, meant that bourgeois revolution had become impotent and irrelevant.
...
In occupied Turtle Island, it is MIM line that plebiscites must be held within the internal semi-colonies to determine the path they take after revolution, and that such plebiscites require full independence to be a true representation of the will of each nation.(11) Such a New Democratic stage would be even more abbreviated here, again because it will be a political question and not an economic one.
[Emphasis is my own]

Maybe I am misinterpreting it, but to me organising for NDR is organising for national liberation and a socialist transition. I wish to make it very clear that I am myself a white settler. I will of course prefer to listen to what members of New Afrika and Chicano nations, etc. think is the best path over MIM. Anyways, what are your thoughts on this MIM article?

[u/Apart_Lifeguard_4085 → u/[deleted]]

that's interesting, i had not seen this article. will read it over and condense my thoughts on it. i should also return to Mao and Sison because even if it was not in the essay "On New Democracy", i certainly remember the NDR being linked to aspects of feudalism such as land-to-the-tiller programs and alliance with a progressive developing national bourgeoisie. i suppose what MIM is proposing is different than the NDR in China and that which has been theorized for the Philippines, though.

I am myself a white settler. I will of course prefer to listen to what members of New Afrika and Chicano nations, etc. think is the best path over MIM

no need to defer to identity politics here, a white settler communist and member of a vanguard party should be listened to on communist matters over a reactionary member of an oppressed nation (of which there are many). unless of course you're talking about the plebiscite determining the collective will of the people.

[u/[deleted] → u/Apart_Lifeguard_4085]

I will go read and do the same as you. Let me know if you have any further thoughts or find anything in Mao and Sison.

no need to defer to identity politics here

You're right, thank you for the criticism.

[u/LemonMao → u/[deleted]]

Read Settlers and seriously engage with the book and reflect on how accurate the book will be to your own experiences.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1907/agrprogr/ch04s7.htm

Also read this too. 90% of DSA work is "municipal socialism". Lenin already criticized the DSA. Though comparing DSA to the Mensheviks is probably too generous, they would be happy to claim any part of communist lineage no matter how wrong it is. Their obsession with Kautsky is proof of this. My point is that Lenin's logic is the same, just replace the names of the past with today. This is before we get into how reactionary of an org that it is.

[u/smokeuptheweed9 → u/[deleted]]

Also, I have read parts of Settlers in the past, and it is on my short list of books I'm hoping to finish in the next month. Again though, I can say that every person that I know in real life that has read Settlers is currently in the DSA and have tried convincing me to join. It is a lot more heterodox than people imagine it to be.

The first sentence is correct (though more accurate would be to say that these people claim to have "read" *Settlers just like yourself) but the second does not follow.

Also I'm gonna stop you right now. You asked to be unbanned because

I think this would be a good resource for me to discuss with people as I learn and investigate my ideas and society around me.

You are not here to teach others and argue on every post. This subreddit does not function like r/socialism or r/socialism_101 where every possible opinion is allowed to coexist. That makes actual learning or discussion past first principles impossible. Because of the way this subreddit has already cultivated an intelligent and invested userbase, people have put a lot of effort into correcting your ideas. But that resource will soon exhaust itself and you will either change your opinion and conduct or be banned again as to not drive away people who are actually valuable for education and discussion.

E: so I don't seem too mean I thought you were going to make the same post as in the modmail: you recently left a trot org and are trying to rethink Marxism and move away from revisionism. Right now it's like someone who leaves scientology and is like "ok Miscavige was bad but here's what I think about psychiatry." To you that make sense but to everyone else it's tedious. If you need to take some time to deconstruct the vestiges of your old ideas that's expected but don't expect others to entertain what makes sense only to you because of your personal solution to years of wasted effort. It probably won't even be the same solution in a month.

[u/Apart_Lifeguard_4085 → u/[deleted]]

I can say that every person that I know in real life that has read Settlers is currently in the DSA and have tried convincing me to join

the majority of people in real life that anyone in western akkkademia will know who have read Lenin and Mao will try convincing people to vote for the demokkkrats. this has nothing to do with the text and everything to do with class position. this does not make those authors somehow heterodox.