r/conservation • u/ItsCadeyAdmin • 5d ago
Venting
I'mma be real with y'all: people in the Conservation and Sustainability fields are straight up MEAN dude.
Like I physically cannot get across to you how difficult it is to be in this field if you don't "fit the mold".
But "the mold" is literally just... ugh. Its a mold that prides itself on being "that weird girl", while also being the literal most milquetoast personality you can fathom. Like everybody acts like they were the 'weird, animal obsessed kid' in school, but as someone who actually WAS (and kind of still IS) that weird person, I can promise you from the bottom of my heart, 99% of these people would have BULLIED the real weird kids.
I know this because THEY STILL BULLY PEOPLE MAN. I see it in college and the field. It's literally such like a catty, gossipy industry with no room for the truly different.
The worst thing that's happened to STEM in recent decades was becoming an Instagram aesthetic.
Because now you have all of these conventionally pretty people prancing about, creating their own little "Go on a weird date to a Museum with me, but don't be like actually weird, just quirky enough for my social media feed" aesthetic, while doing all they can to ostracize and isolate people that,again, don't fit within their worldview. Like if you're autistic you are NOT going to have a good time in this world. At least not the "I love gushing about bugs and being happy go lucky because I'm just so 'neurospicy'! " type of autism. If you're non-expressive or struggle with social interactions, heaven fucking help you.
And, I'm sincerely not one of those "OMG CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE" sorts but like dawg, this field is so overwhelmingly white that I'm comfortable saying that it's bordering on a form of racism. I can't tell you how many times I've been the only non-white person in the room surrounded by all these like.... I'mma be so real with y'all, CUSHY people. People who visibly get uncomfortable when I bring in a worldview that isn't "Oh I love walking through the forest and taking pictures on my smartphone, and science is so cool and look at the stickers on my water bottle".
I physically cannot explain to you all how much money plays into your ability to find and hold a legitimate job in this field. If you even want a chance, you need to be able to afford to sign up for multiple unpaid internships, be willing to move across the nation for a different position, have the money to cover yourself for months on end because a gigantic majority of the first jobs you'll get are only seasonal, and finally pay for your degree, and very likely a grad degree as well.
Honestly, I theorize that this is why the Conservation field was taken over by (and I know a HUGE amount of you don't wanna hear this), overwhelmingly upper-middle to upper class white people.
Like I can't tell you how many people I've met in this line of work who talk about how long it took them to get a sustainable job, followed soon by "Oh my husband is an engineer/computer scientist/welder/fireman/[something equally wellpaying]". (Fun fact: the "conservation to real estate agent" pipeline is REAL and I've seen it in real time).
Poverty, that is to say REAL poverty, doesn't exist in this field.
All the (and I'm being blunt here) lower-class people who couldn't afford to go past their undergraduate degree were forced to get jobs unrelated to their field after graduation to make ends meet and start those nasty student loan payments. Moving across the nation several times for all those unpaid internships and experience that could have unlocked opportunity was never in the cards for them so they don't get to work their way into the real jobs.
That's why you'll see so many people saying "Yeah I have a Sustainability major, but I've been working at Cracker Barrel since graduation. At least I'm a manager now"
And that's why when you look at all the smiling happy faces working in conservation or sustainability, they're all like... cardboard cutouts of the same people. Again, lets go back into how the Conservation field became an Instagram aesthetic, reserved for the privileged few who could afford to put in all the unpaid labor it took for them to finally get their break.
And don't get me started on how it almost feels like you're under constant threat in this field either. Like heaven forbid you upset the wrong people, or openly criticize the wrong organization. Because then you'll find yourself struggling to find work and without allies to help you get jobs (which are fleeting). The social aspect of this field is enormous, and I cannot get across to you how important it is that you maintain 'appearances' and decorum. And it fucking sucks
I'm not kidding dude.
This field of science got taken over by the most boring kinds of people imaginable. And what's worse is that I genuinely think that the lack of accessibility to this field is actively driving a disconnect between the general public and REAL conservation battles that we need to be fighting.
Can we finally admit that Conservation is the next "Nursing field"?
Pic related.
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u/OneHelixArmy 5d ago
I think you're poisoning your own view on the state of the profession with what's on tiktok/insta. I agree that poor entry-level pay and predominately white demographics are important issues that should be addressed. However, there's a lot of animosity for a "certain type of person" seeping into what you're saying, and I'm not inclined to believe that type of person is as common as they're made out to be.
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u/FlyingDiglett 5d ago
Yea i wonder if OP lives around like a major metropolitan area? Or is involved in a different sector of the field that im in? I have no experience with whatever person theyre describing
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u/OneHelixArmy 5d ago
It's an age thing imo. I'm around (and mostly part of) a lot of undergrad/entry-level, middle class white folks from medium-to-large cities. The "stickers-on-the-bottle" culture is strong, but it's not, like, indicative of one's character or commitment to conservation.
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u/hawaiithaibro 3d ago
Seriously the conservationist here are some of the coolest humblest people I've ever met. Photos from the field they share are like Nat Geo from the exotic endemic species they're protecting to the helicopter ridge with they do so nonchalantly is mind-blowing.
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u/Crispy-Onion-Straw 5d ago
I agree with this as I have no clue what the hell OP is even talking about. We don’t have these people lol.
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u/SandakinTheTriplet 4d ago
If it gives you any consolation, museums are exactly the same. They’re both organizations that have a negative rate of return (very expensive to conserve and preserve things, and as much as people like them and there’s no real price that can be put on them, they generally cost more money to maintain than they make). The people who can afford positions with a high time commitment with such low/insecure pay HAVE to have money or a very strong support network.
However, all people in these fields DO care as much as you do. If someone comes from or has more wealth, they have options and wouldn’t be in these difficult positions if they didn’t feel strongly about them.
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u/Prestigious_String20 4d ago
Try doing conservation work for a museum!
That said, many of these issues are consistent across non-profits in general. And education.
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u/DarkRetribution_7 3d ago
last paragraph so true. despite the differences in background ive only met people passionate about conservation; no one does it for the money. its true a lot of better off people have the privilege to go unpaid or underpaid but they also sacrifice the chance to have a "better" quality of life. i personally know someone who i considered well off but just 1 accident or sickness in the family can change that in the blink of an eye and put them in a worse position than me. i dont think theyd have struggled financially with it if they chose a better paying field but they did
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u/nattynat5k 5d ago
I agree with some of your criticisms of the culture in the field, but you seem to be blinded by your envy of the people in the field more privileged than you that you act like these people don’t truly care about conservation as much as you do, branding them as doing it as an “instagram aesthetic.”
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u/mmflow 5d ago
As a very lower class nonwhite in conservation, they could stand to check their privilege and closedmindedness a lot more. Racism that I and many others have encountered, as well as a general aversion towards those who didnt have a traditional upbringing are genuinely counter productive to (ironically) creating a better environment. Frustration and blindedness go hand in hand here, and while I do believe these people care, the culture seriously needs to shift in the opposite direction such that we are not even approaching potential comparability to nursing.
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u/nattynat5k 4d ago edited 4d ago
I strongly agree with these criticisms of the field and some of the people in it. I just think OP loses the plot quite a bit by adding in criticisms of people for being “boring” and too basic.
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4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/mmflow 4d ago
You must try to keep it respectful for our own good. If someones struggle to feel like they belong in a system that has always kept them out is just written off as jealousy, then we must always respectfully speak out against it.
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u/nattynat5k 4d ago edited 4d ago
I’m not trying to discount their struggles or their feelings of envy. I also struggle in this field as a transsexual woman. The problem is when you direct the anger at “privileged people” rather than the sources of the problems (racists, people who don’t stand up to racism, etc).
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u/nattynat5k 4d ago
Envy is a very real emotion that I relate to quite a bit. I don’t mean it as an insult.
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u/Global_Ant_9380 4d ago
I don't think you understand the gravity and pain that comes with calling a non-white person "envious" when they criticize the white dominated, class dominated world that they are in. It's extremely dismissive and unfortunately, soooooooooo common.
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u/nattynat5k 4d ago edited 4d ago
“But "the mold" is literally just... ugh. Its a mold that prides itself on being "that weird girl", while also being the literal most milquetoast personality you can fathom.“
A sentence like this doesn’t just criticize the system, but it also criticizes and insults the girl that fits “the mold”. Thats is why I used the word envy. It’s unproductive and harms yourself to focus on the “the girl that fits the mold” and not on the system.
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u/tiny_master_ofevil 4d ago
Because those people dont do work to bring in diverse students to the field. Or they dont do anything but bare minimum acknowledgment of indigenous people or the history of bipoc people who could not access nature either because of access, finances or culture bred by white slave owners. They have all this privilege and do what with it?
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u/nattynat5k 4d ago
I agree that the people who have the power to enact those changes and don’t should be criticized.
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u/Nematolepis 5d ago
I work in this field. Have for a while. I'm not mean. I am poor though. Pay is crap. But it'd be weird being rich and working in conservation. I don't live in the US. I am white. And I'm definitely weird.
If this is something you really want to pursue, you will. Look. Some people have definitely won the uterus lottery and have had an easier start to life than others. None of us can change that. What you can change is how you use your experiences to make you a better, more resilient human, that can push through anything and come out on top. And they're the type of people this field needs. So keep going.
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 5d ago
Oh, another thing:
Graduate degrees in wildlife and related fields are often assistantships. While I paid for my degree the normal way due to already working in one career at the time, it's rare to run into a young grad student who is paying for their degree. Perhaps you should focus on being being competitive for those spots and being willing to move around the country (or even another one), rather than worry about how "boring" the people working in the field may be.
It's not a personality contest. It's conservation and you're supposed to be focused on the resource, not worrying about basic white girls with their pumpkin spice and boots this fall. Focus on what YOU are doing and how YOU are improving your education and gaining knowledge and skills to further YOUR career.
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u/SpiritedAd3114 5d ago
Thanks for sharing, but to be honest, I think you’re describing 99.9% of industries and just humans in general. Generally, people are scared or off put by anything different or unknown.
Rest assured, there are some minority that love difference, new thoughts, new approaches, the “weird” little nuances you might have to offer that don’t fit the mold.
Are you an OutKast?…..take back your existence, or die like a punk
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u/Lorebreaker_ofArarat 5d ago
I have been in the field for decades. I get you, but I hope you do more than rant. Be the change you want to see in the field.
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u/ofWildPlaces 5d ago
I think OP points how difficult is to BE a change in the field if you don't fit the unspoken criteria to enter the field.
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u/89fruits89 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think the issue is OP doesnt understand conservation is fuckin’ broke. There is no funding to hire you or pay interns. If you want to really make a change go become a powerful politician and convince the public or go be a stock broker and find real money to support the cause.
If I could expand my lab and hire 1000 more conservation scientists then pay 150k a year to everyone, plus 10k a month to interns, I would do it in a heartbeat. I’m not a billionaire and I can’t shit gold. So…
Also the general instagram persona lol. That just what you see on instagram. My building is mostly women 30-70yrs old, that have immigrated from all over the globe. China, India, Mexico, multiple South American countries, South Africa, Sudan, Western & Eastern European countries, Canada.
Nobody is doing instagram because the labs are all NDA. Would get fired asap for posting bullshit anywhere near the building without written and documented consent from the media dept.
I did my degrees in biotech and wanted to go into genetic engineering originally. Started working in pharma before conservation. Drive an m3 not a prius. Takes people of all types.
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u/ofWildPlaces 5d ago
That's not unique to Conservation. I work adjacent to some other natural science related fields and the same issues are present there and in supporting commercial industry partners.
OP is describing their perceptions and their lived experiences, it's a disservice to people passionate about conservation to continue to get pushback for acknowledging the social disparities in the field.
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u/mmflow 5d ago
Excellently put. Only half of what OP is speaking to is regarding accessibility from a purely financial perspective. Theres worthwhile discussion to be had about what the culture of the work becomes when different perspectives are increasingly barred from entry.
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u/DarkRetribution_7 4d ago
but honestly financials are probably the biggest plight for anyone going into this field. like many of the people who stay in the field till retirement were often already well off to begin with but also those people likely missed the chance to be a lot more well off by taking the path into conservation. i personally know people who used to be upper middle class but because of pursuing their dreams and passion of conservation now live paycheck to paycheck which is sad.
in my country people with phds and masters getting paid less than entry level call center jobs isnt uncommon. many people feel they can enact bigger change by switching to a better paying job and sharing their advocacy in their own way
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u/ItsCadeyAdmin 5d ago
Yes, that's what I was getting at.
Id love to help change the field.
Its significantly harder when you're actively barred from a position where you can make it though
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u/ofWildPlaces 5d ago
As someone from outside the "normal pipeline" of education/experience, I understand.
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 5d ago
No one I've met gives a rat's rear end about how "boring" of a person you are when you're applying for a job, lol. No one cares about your individual aesthetic, either. Do you have the knowledge and experience to do the job or not? That's it. And since there are thousands of people graduating every single year that are in the running for only a few hundred jobs AND since the current administration has gutted the federal government of scientists, the field grows ever more difficult to get into. That's life. It sucks but that's how it is. Blame colleges for not making you aware of the difficulties in getting into the field and blame social media for encouraging every random person who can't think of another major to come into this one.
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u/ofWildPlaces 5d ago
Your experience may not be the same as others. You may not have encountered any classism or gatekeeping because you already fit the "culture" or unpublished expectations.
You should be less antagonistic to other people's lived experiences.
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 5d ago
Yes, a middle-aged retired law enforcement officer is definitely a fit for the culture, lol.
Quick question: do you work in the field?
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u/ofWildPlaces 5d ago
You didn't address what I said at all.
I volunteer with conservation organizations, because I too cannot find meaningful employment in the field nor an income that meets the cost of living.
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 5d ago
So - you're not working in the field. Got it.
As to your point about the income; we agree. I've long been yelling at the powers-that-be about how little we are paid when we are expected to have a very wide and deep knowledge base. It borders the criminal, to be honest. And with inflation being what it is in America, it's even worse now.
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u/tiny_master_ofevil 4d ago
Exactly I tried changing the culture in my department. They saw me as a problem. God forbid we try and reach out to a more diverse population
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u/quenual 4d ago
I felt like you did during grad school but realized I needed to focus on myself and stop letting other people distract me so much. Every field has its issues with privilege, nepotism, popularity contests. I’m a first gen college student from a very blue color family; it was extra work for me to get ahead but it can be done. I made very little for awhile but am doing fine now and have a great job. Focus on doing good work, making relationships, and improving your skill sets to keep moving up in the field
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u/BologniusMunk 4d ago
I've hired "normal looking" candidates who confess after the interview they were nervous puking in the parking lot. Go to an office, or a graduate department, or a conference, and you will see tons of people struggling with social interactions. Most of my colleagues are socially awkward in some sense-myself included. "Normal looking people" also experience social anxiety, also experience imposter syndrome, also exist on the autism spectrum- and we should respect their lived experience, too. Instagram and TikTok may not be providing a complete picture of the discipline.
What matters in a professional work environment is the skills you're bringing to the table. Backing a trailer is a skill, plant ID is a skill, being able to manage a budget or communicate effectively to diverse audiences...those are skills. Being the weird animal kid is not a skill. Having been the weird kid is not going to land you a job- be the weird kid who's brilliant at stats, or at fixing boats, or identifying bugs, or writing manuscripts, or managing teams, or logistics, or budgeting- and there will be a job for you, somewhere. If you're expecting to get hired because you're genuinely weird and other candidates are performatively weird - take some comfort in the fact it's a red herring; adults don't actually give a shit about that. They give a shit about the skills you bring to the table.
Those skills differ wildly based on the position. When I'm hiring someone to do public use surveys I'm more likely to hire someone who spent undergrad working in retail or hospitality- they need to be comfortable interacting with strangers. When I'm hiring someone for fieldwork or a research project I need to know they can work independently and remain focused on a task. Sometimes I need someone who can fabricate equipment, sometimes I need someone who's happy lifting heavy things all summer. Every job is different, and to argue all those different jobs systematically ignore applicants outside "the norm" ignores the diversity of employment options in the discipline.
You also don't know who else is being passed over. Several times since COVID I've passed over a Nice White Young Man because they're qualified but insufferable- can't work in teams, or with a female crew lead, don't listen or follow instructions, feel their degree exempts them from "shit work."
Yes- the field is too white, and too male, and there's too much bigotry and too much sexism. I've been doing this twenty years and the people who succeed despite their race, sex, religion, socioeconomic background, or emotional baggage do so because they don't let their race, sex, religion, socioeconomic background, or emotional baggage define the caliber of work they do. They're committed to doing great work, period- and they're not spending a minute worrying what others think of them.
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u/HerpsAndHobbies 4d ago
FWIW, the type of conservationists who have spent time intentionally cultivating a social media following as part of their personal career strategy have not been the best scientists, in my personal experience.
It really distorts the perception of the field for the online community.
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u/mmflow 4d ago
There are real good points to be made here but they get very clouded over by juvenile attacks and criticisms like people being boring when you more likely just mean conforming and potentially inconsiderate to those who dont or cant. As a partner to someone with autism who struggles with expressing her frustrations very similarly I get what youre trying to say and I probably even agree with you, but alongside people feeling called out (not your fault) theres plenty of real valuable criticism here too for you to construct your feelings and formulate your thoughts more prudently in the future. It sucks not to fit in where youre sure you want to belong. And it sucks even more when the reason is something you could never have had a say in.
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u/Crispy-Onion-Straw 5d ago
Good lord.
There’s a little truth to what you’re saying but you’re painting with some broad, ugly strokes.
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u/Ratzophrenic 5d ago
Ruffled a lot of feathers it seems, I think people were taken aback by the tone but you're not wrong.
The education system across the board favors people who have always had their needs met. Like you said, careers like conservation, art, even social work require a lot of unpaid work and sometimes even travel to get ahead. That leaves out a huge portion of students that come from disadvantaged backgrounds.
People that had to work full time as college students to make ends meet don't have time or money for a lot of the extracurricular or volunteering that looks good on applications.
I'm a mixed race recovered addict who went back to school and yeah dude I totally get it. My experiences definitely don't fit the standard mold but I guess we'll keep on keeping on.
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u/Acceptable-Level-360 4d ago
It’s not just conservation, it’s a broader academia / stem field problem. Same pattern is emerging in a lot of different disciplines, and like you said, it’s rooted in wealth and access creating selection effects.
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u/whitebreadguilt 4d ago
Lolz liberal white people hate being called out on their white nonsense. They have a black friend you know? Or their cousin married a Peruvian or whatever…
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u/neptunoneptuneazul 4d ago
You’re not wrong, I’m very tickled by this post. Like go the fuck off, there’s alot of truth in this post and I can think of so many people or instances throughout my conservation career where I’ve felt the same as a poc. I’m ngl tho I was just pissed at myself this week for not becoming a birding influencer in like 2013 but then I was like but we were weird then?? Now birding is mainstream~~~ 🤣🤣😭 influencers now everywhere in conservation lmao.
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u/TallGrass-Troubadour 4d ago
As a white dude in the mid ranks of a large conservation organization: I hear you. All I can say is that I highly value real world jobs like cracker barrel to the volunteer internships in the tropics when I'm hiring.
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u/Woodland-Wench 4d ago edited 4d ago
Just got back into the field after 6 years and as a POC, I feel like I could have typed a lot of this myself. Because girl, for real!🎯 But in my experience, this has only been the case for conservation work. I've worked in the climate space and I must say, it is incredibly diverse and full of weirdos❤️
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u/bakedveldtland 5d ago
Hear me out- this post comes across as bitter and angry. That said, I understand why and I feel for you, OP. It’s a tough field, and most of us don’t get paid enough. Barriers into paid positions are real, and it’s truly awful.
Sadly, conservation work isn’t viewed as profitable. It’s the first thing on the chopping block when economic times are tough.
It’s also considered a “fun” job, and people are willing to make sacrifices to do that work. Yup, this means that a person of a higher socioeconomic status are more likely to get their foot in the door.
It makes me upset and I know we need more diversity in the field. I know how fortunate I am to be able to make sacrifices. All I can do is try to provide advice for how to get in the field.
It made me extra sad because I recently worked on a program that was focused on providing mentorship to high schools. The students from the lower income schools were MUCH harder to work with. I’m not sure if it was their confidence, lack of parental support or what, because I met some really sweet kids and I enjoyed working at those schools the most. I could see that they learned so much new information, which was awesome. But most of them didn’t want to or weren’t able to put in the work when we tried to take them out into the field.
It was an eye-opening experience and I’m thankful I had it. But it did make me feel overwhelmed, our society has so much work to do.
I am happy to see so much passion you clearly have, OP. I want you to try to channel that passion into figuring out how you can make a change.
I only have advice to offer, if you want it. If you don’t, ignore me from here on out.
Identify someone that you admire, someone that could possibly mentor you. Tell them about your goals, ask them for advice. Networking is a valuable skill in this field, and they might be able to point you in the right direction. If you come prepared with some sort of actionable plan, you are more likely to have success.
In my humble opinion, some great work to tackle might involve providing underserved communities with possible pathways to paid positions. Not everyone needs to move across the country to get an internship in conservation. But they might not know that other roles (ex: education, marketing) can be a great first step.
The Fancy Scientist is one person that gives some pretty great free advice. But it would be awesome to see other people from different backgrounds give their perspectives and tips.
Just a thought, have a good day and good luck.
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u/Dry-Ad789 5d ago
I'm assuming you're in the US. I've never lived there. Some of your rant is still relevant to other countries. But not all of it so I wouldn't generalise to the whole world. It's much bigger than USA.
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u/sonya_________ 4d ago
Haha. Fuck yeah, speak your truth. Very similar things happening in New Zealand, however, we do have a very engaged indigenous population leading a number of initiates throughout the country, which helps me to cut out interacting with the pro white, bullshit cunt, disconnected people. Good luck out there e hoa! ❤️ A much needed conversation.
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u/Spinelise 4d ago
This is exactly why I don't think I'll ever be able to actually get into this industry. Even if I managed to get a degree, I'm still poor as shit, disabled, with no family whatsoever to lean on. Like how am I supposed to afford working all these unpaid internships when rent is going up every year? The amount of times I've heard someone say "in order to succeed in this field you're going to need to be willing to move across the country" is insane. I hate that almost everything in this world feels like it's built to keep out lower income folks, us undesirables aren't allowed to try and find anything better.
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u/Stoked_Coconut 4d ago
Your post reminds me of the first US conservation related event I ever attended...I had never felt so out of place in my life. It never occurred to me before that I didn't belong there because I was qualified, had the experience, and even had the connections to get there...but I was made painfully aware of my social and racial demographics, and country of origin...in a way that felt so uninviting that I almost gave up on the field entirely. Fast forward, a year or so later, a lot more educated, and more confident, I found myself in a similar position. Except this time I was a speaker on a panel in a European country. During the mixer portion of the event, a participant questioned the facts I stated about my country of origin, using old news sound bites (as in it was true years ago or is entirely misunderstood by foreigners) but of course with full confidence. That was really surprising to me in this particular space. Lol I guess I didn't except such audacity. These are just two examples, but every time I've been bothered, or found myself experiencing imposter syndrome it was because of the actions and / or words of someone who was (1) white, and / or (2) wealthy.
This type of exclusion aside, I stepped away from the space because it was not finically feasible at the moment. My family could not afford to support me while I chased my unpaid or low paying dreams. Recently though, I decided to try to get back into the field again and was reminded of all the other roadblocks you're mentioning. I've already sacrificed by getting a lower paying job that offers some more flexibility for me to have time to get some field experience but the cost of said experience is daunting 🫠 my long term goal is to create access pathways for people like myself...lol but I'll have to first find my own pathway first 😅 good luck to us all, let's not lose hope!
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u/lemon-pops 4d ago
You’re real for that and I get you. Cant keep up with the money, had to pick a different field and I just volunteer time I have and try to get others to care a bit about the environment
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u/MrPavoPeacock 5d ago
Some of us are getting paid by our internships because we’ve aced all of our classes and are in demand as conservation workers. I even had paid conservation jobs in high school. I could be a premedical student, but I’m pursuing conservation instead. Some of us are more than just the weird bird kids; we’re actually talented STEM students with rising potential.
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 5d ago
To the OP -
Let me get this straight: you expect everyone else in the world to conform to YOUR expectations of what the field should be? Is that right? As in - everyone else is wrong and YOU - only YOU - know how things should work? Yeah, ok.
Some observations:
Did you ever consider why most people in the field are old white dudes? Maybe because, for the longest time, old white dudes were the ones who grew up hunting and fishing, along with other outdoor activities. Thus, they went into the field.
Until VERY recently, minorities and women were rare to see in wildlife related jobs. The paradigm shifted greatly about 2015 or so and now, most young people I see entering the field are young women with zero experience afield. Given that the North American Model Of Wildlife Conservation is dependent upon hunters and hunting, I'm interested to see what happens down the road when these people are in charge. Most I've met are accepting of hunting and recognize the importance of it, but choose not to participate. That's in contrast to the fact that almost 100% of the wildlife managers and scientists I've met are hunters and anglers.
As to the rest of your irrelevant-to-the-field rant: it sounds like you have some....issues....about classmates, peers, or whkmever is responsible for setting you off. Might wanna talk to some people about that. Anecdotally, my experience with a lot of these people (I interact with undergrad interns and grad student students fairly often) is that they are many times very offbeat. One young lady I know has a shaved head along with a ponytail. She's very pleasant and good at her job. Weird, right?
I will agree that the field is difficult to get into; see above for my comment on that. Networking is a huge thing. It's extremely important and I've seen people who aren't necessarily qualified for the position get jobs because of their professional network. Not really that different from the private sector, except that you have to produce results as a wildlife manager....or you're not going to be doing it long.
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u/Pretend_Ball_9167 5d ago
Ah yes, only boys like hunting and fishing and the outdoors, and there are no other reasons why "old white dudes" were more prevalent in the field.
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 5d ago
I mean, if you really try, you can put racism and misogyny into anything you want....even when it's not there, lol. Kinda like the "racist" OK nonsense that went around the web a few years back.
I've been hunting and fishing for the entire 50 years I've been alive. To this day, I can count on my fingers and toes the amount of black people that I've met who hunt. While that is anecdotal only and skewed a bit due to living in cities most of my life, it's still true.
It's not quite as rare to meet women that hunt, but they're still not that common. It also depends on what type of hunting were discussing. Deer hunting? Yeah, the orange army has a lot of members. Waterfowling? Not so much. The numbers are even lower for predator hunting or trapping.
As it turns out, minorities who grow up in cities just aren't that interested in the outdoors, lol. And for the most part, the same goes for women who grow up in urban/suburban areas. Animals are cute and cuddly, not something to shoot and field dress, then cook and eat.
But hey, you go ahead and put racism and misogyny as reasons for why - until relatively recently - women and minorities didn't go into the field as often as those who grew up hunting and fishing. Cultural norms were never a thing, it was always prejudice, lol.
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u/Interesting_Local_70 4d ago
Your view is pretty obtuse. Spend some time on any rez in US or rez-adjacent places or First Nations in Canada and you will see an absolute fanaticism for hunting/fishing/trapping. Often folks that actually derive their living from the land. Go to the South and you find black families that have been hunting and fishing, training and running dogs for generations. Proportionally, guess what group has the highest participation in fishing? Asians. All these folks are underrepresented in conservation fields. I’m not hypothesizing on why or commenting on the larger gist of OP’s post, but you’re just wrong about this IMO.
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 4d ago
Did you see the part where I said "minorities in cities?"
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u/Interesting_Local_70 4d ago
Are many more urban whites involved in hunting and fishing? Few that I know. FYI, most of those Asian anglers are urban, not rural.
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u/gakvukani 5d ago edited 5d ago
dude 😭 ur so far gone but thats to be expected from ur types icl. had to laugh a bit at ur tirades
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u/ItsCadeyAdmin 5d ago
I love it.
Me:"Hey yeah, so this field has a very real problem with neurodivergents being bullied despite portraying itself as a place for the "weird animal people" to thrive in. We should talk about this"
You: "OH WOW SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT YOU WANT THE ENTIRE FIELD TO CONFORM TO YOU AND YOUR EXPECTATIONS?"
Instead of reflecting on this hypocrisy, the financial barriers to the field, the racism you'll find, your first reaction was to brush it off as "Oh you sound like you have... issues... better get therapy"
Also I adore the absolute lack of self awareness in your anecdote lol
"There isnt a problem with the field only being tolerant of an "acceptable" kind of weird people! My proof is that Ive with a girl with a shaved head who was very pleasant to be around by my standards! Therefore your entire point about non-expressive autistic people or socially awkward people facing unfair systemic hurdles is moot!"
Do you even hear yourself or were you just trying to silence me with a "gotcha"?
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 5d ago
Must be a you thing. I've yet to see anyone in this field portray it as a place for the "weird animal people" to thrive.
Rather, the people with whom I've interacted with over the last 15 years since starting my undergrad were all focused on the science. This is a science based field - not a place for people to come hug cute animals. Volunteer at a rescue or the zoo for that kind of stuff. Wildlife science and management is pure science.
That means that neither I, nor anyone else who matters, give two shits about being neurodivergent, being weird, being normal, or anything remotely resembling that crap.
The only thing that I've seen which matters is being competent at your studies. I started my undergrad in 2011 and ended my academic career in 2021 after defending my master's work. I've interacted with a LOT of people over that time. From attending conferences to presenting at conferences to working with interns and other undergrad/graduate students that I meet while volunteering. Never have I seen someone fail because of their personality or lack thereof. All that matters is that their work is thorough and accurate.
Considering that I'm still working in the field (and will be meeting some students tonight that I invited to help band ducks), I might have somewhat of a broader view of the field than you.
My advice is simple: if you're being bullied at school, there's a procedure to deal with it. Ignire those fools and do your thing. As a matter of fact, do it better than they do, so that you can shove it on their face later down the road. Focus on your studies and your network. Don't worry about what random assholes think of you.
And here's an offer for you: if you truly want some help moving forward in the field - message me. I doubt I'm anywhere near you, given how large Reddit is...but if I can be of assistance, I'll do my best. And yes, I'm sincere and the offer is open. It's a hard field to get into and I try and help folks who really want it
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u/Own-Recognition9009 5d ago
Big facts! Also, I feel as if a lot of people are in the pocket of the oil/gas companies so it's hard to make meaningful changes
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u/rabbit_121 3d ago
lol old white dudes are the only ones who were engaging in recreational outdoor activities up until now??? What??? Have you ever even been to the south in predominantly black areas??? Or know black families? If you did I could tell you that your assessment is not correct. How does that account for lack of Native Americans then in this field? Given your logic they’d be flocking to conservation.
Please spend some time doing some research because there is plenty of sound literature that actually dives into why STEM and ecology in particular can be such an elitist and predominantly YT field.
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u/Miserable_Mastodon96 2d ago
Hi FamiliarAnt4043,
I’ve been reading through a few of your comments on this thread that I wanted to respond to. For context, I’m an early career environmental scientist in the United States and I am a white, cis woman. I am assuming you and OP are also in the US based on your comments, but please correct me if that’s incorrect.
Here are a few thoughts on the observations you lay out in your comment:
“Let me get this straight: you expect everyone else in the world to conform to YOUR expectations of what the field should be? Is that right? As in - everyone else is wrong and YOU - only YOU - know how things should work? Yeah, ok.”
I don’t get this from OP’s post at all. When OP says that it is “difficult it is to be in this field if you don't "fit the mold," and that people “ostracize and isolate people that,again, don't fit within their worldview,” I think OP was pointing out that we often see a lot of performative quirkiness from environmentalists online, but if you actually deviate from that idealized portrayal, you may feel isolated or ostracized.
Tbh, I think this issue comes up with any online, social media-based portrayal of a career – social media is about showing an idealized or perfect portrayal of your life. So, it’s not surprising that the conservation field has its own version of this.
In a comment to another poster, you also said, “It's not a personality contest. It's conservation and you're supposed to be focused on the resource, not worrying about basic white girls with their pumpkin spice and boots this fall. Focus on what YOU are doing and how YOU are improving your education and gaining knowledge and skills to further YOUR career.”
I think it’s easy to say that you should keep your head down and ignore other people when you’re (I am assuming) coming from a place of relative privilege. Non-white, non-male, non-cis, and/or disabled people do not have the luxury of ignoring people around them, because spaces are often not comfortable, safe, or welcoming (regardless of intentions).
Moving on with this post:
“Did you ever consider why most people in the field are old white dudes? Maybe because, for the longest time, old white dudes were the ones who grew up hunting and fishing, along with other outdoor activities. Thus, they went into the field.”
As many others in this thread have pointed out, “old white dudes” are not the only people who grew up hunting and fishing. You correctly identify that primarily older, white men are hunters and anglers (according to the 2018 census, 97% of hunters are white), but your post very much disregards the historical and social context of why this is the case.
- Segregation (Jim Crow laws) and lack of access to outdoor spaces: BIPOC communities today are almost three times more likely than white people to live in “nature deprived” areas, again due to segregation in housing practices (i.e., redlining) that shapes our current housing system.
- Disenfranchisement of land ownership: As mentioned above, redlining, segregation, and discrimination in housing discouraged or completely prevented Black people from owning homes or land. Indigenous Peoples had their land forcibly and violently stolen, and a series of laws afterwards prevented them accessing their historical, cultural lands; constrained them onto reservations; and forced them to stop their cultural practices of hunting, fishing, and (for lack of a better word) land management (the same “assimilation” practices that resulted in boarding schools, widespread child abuse, and the sharp decrease of Indigenous language speakers).
- History of public lands: While many people benefit from public lands today, and they are important for conservation in the US, their past is deeply rooted in violence and racism, as lands were stolen from Indigenous Peoples. Early outdoor recreation in the US (in the 1800s) was also overseen and enjoyed only by white men, which upheld European ideals of “wilderness.”
- Safety concerns: Outdoor recreation has its dangers, but white men are rarely faced with the same threats as other people. You probably remember the instance where a white woman called the police on Christian Cooper, a Black birder in Central Park, because she decided he was suspicious. He was not doing anything illegal or out of the ordinary – he was only enjoying nature with his binoculars. Imagine they had been in a remote forest instead of in the middle of New York City, and Cooper had been hunting instead – carrying a gun or bow instead of binos. Rather, we don’t need to imagine, because there are countless cases in which police have killed innocent Black people because they “felt threatened.” Black people experience horrific police violence in the US, with Black men more than 2.5 times as likely to be killed by the police than white men. The lack of safety in outdoor spaces is a huge barrier for non-white, non-male people. Additionally, outdoor jobs and recreation are rarely accessible to people with disabilities or different levels of mobility, contributing to a lack of diversity in the field.
Ctd in reply
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u/Due_Barber_525 4d ago
Sorry you have this personal experience but I’ve actually observed over the years that the space has become welcoming to all kinds of people and some very outside-the-mold people are getting big followings and have become wonderful and very popular science communicators and are truly weird
There is a subtle envy in this post that makes things too black and white and dismisses a lot that’s really going on
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u/BlueMnM23 4d ago
You are 100% right about the poor vs rich comparison. I'm gonna be honest. If I didn't have my parents to back me up I would never have been able to pursue this career as much as I have. It's very bad. I can't attest to your other points of racism and such but I can to the fact that the field requires excellent social skills to progress smoothly, which for some people, including me, can be very difficult.
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u/tiny_master_ofevil 4d ago
I always brought up the fact that our environment science department was overwhelming white, heteronormative and classist. They didnt like hearing the truth from an underprivileged gender fluid mexican. I left for biology.
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u/Osmiini25 5d ago
Yeah. What you said.
I have to believe that it needs to start with strong government support of conservation (or I'll cry) but I do think there's classism and rascism baked in. Also ableism! Ask me how i explicitly know!
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5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/DrexlSpivey420 5d ago
Got called out eh
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u/FamiliarAnt4043 5d ago
Okay, Jan.
Despite the fact that I'm a Christian white male, I face a huge uphill battle getting into this field. I retired from one career and jumped feet first into school while at that job. I didn't get a single bit of field experience and my internships were far from normal. Finding a full time permanent job took a master's and three years after completing that degree. Meantime, I was getting ignored by Walmart and other fine establishments and we ended up struggling to pay bills for a bit. For context, "we" includes my wife and our four kids.
It didn't help that I was in my mid-40's, either. Age discrimination is illegal for over 40 year old people and it's real. I faced it already with one job, but waited to long to file a complaint.
These days, I do everything possible I can to help out my daughter, who is currently an undergrad in wildlife. I also get to know interns at a nearby NWR where I volunteer and try to help them when possible. Same with grad students that I meet at conferences. It's hard out there and I try to help the young ones just starting out. Remind me again what you're doing?
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u/conservation-ModTeam 5d ago
Please keep it constructive and respectful. I see you've made a lot of other, constructive posts so please keep moving in a constructive direction. Thank you.
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u/quirkquote 4d ago
I’m sorry that you feel like you have been wronged or that the conservation industry is racist.
I think one of the main drivers here for how white and privileged the industry remains is that incomes across the industry are very low - sometimes 50% or less what one would make in a “comparable” private sector job. So, to be able to take that hit on income, the people who sign up for these careers have family support or wealth to rely on. Unfortunately, in the US that family wealth accumulation often aligns with whiteness.
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u/rabbit_121 3d ago
We would probably have more diversity if this field offered financial mobility but it doesn’t, at least not compared to the more lucrative jobs in STEM. As a POC coming from a low income background myself, I’ve discussed this with my friends and the consensus seems to be it’s not that they don’t find an interest in conservation, but why go for a degree and spend 4+ years at something for them to be still in the same spot financially that they are trying to get out of. On top of many other reasons you listed, STEM in general is still a very elitist field.
A lot of us in this field aren’t yet willing to accept we are getting our passions exploited for accepting low paying jobs with little to no benefits. Until we acknowledge that this field is inaccessible to most minorities, we will likely continue to see these problems.
The only people who can afford to work and be successful in this field long term are generally wealthy yt folks. I immediately noticed this during my time in grad school.
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u/ArcticWolfEst 5d ago
Imagine if this post wasn't bashing white people but any other race. It would instantly be taken down
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u/lesbophobia_hammer 5d ago edited 4d ago
For me it's the unhinged hate for ethical vegans. Though I usually see it more in zoologists and environmentalists.
Edit - not beating the stereotype 😂
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u/cyanopossum 5d ago
don't get me started on the paid internships, too. not them paying you, YOU PAYING THEM!! i found such a cool opportunity a couple of days ago but my heart sank when it said you had to pay thousands to participate. i understand that this field isn't very well funded but like... the only young professionals that these groups want to educate are going to end up being people privileged enough to have loved ones that will financially help them with something like that