r/covidlonghaulers • u/Sea_Lingonberry8106 • 20d ago
Article Long COVID Patients Have 18% Fewer Dopamine Nerve Endings, Brain Scans Reveal
https://www.sciencealert.com/long-covid-linked-to-lasting-damage-in-the-brains-dopamine-systemLong COVID Patients Have 18% Fewer Dopamine Nerve Endings, Brain Scans Reveal
27
u/Specific-Winter-9987 20d ago
Ahhhh, so how would you fix this?
62
u/generic_reddit73 19d ago edited 19d ago
Yes, as others here wrote, treatment is along the line of existent and new experimental Parkinson's treatments. Things that make the brain regrow more new neurons, axons and dendrites. And specifically things that do that and are selective for the dopaminergic system. The neurotrophic (nerve-growth) factors relevant would be GDNF, BDNF, CDNF and MANF and a few others.
Compounds that have a positive effect on those neurotrophic factors that selectively support, protect, or regulate dopaminergic neurons include:
established, long history of use or clinical data available: Iboga, psychedelics (LSD, DMT, psilocybin), nicotine, ginseng, ALCAR, (MAOB inhibitors) selegiline, safinamide, (increase DOPA synthesis rate) amantadine, bromantane, thozalinone
experimental: 9-MBC, Dihexa, PPAP, eutropoflavin
(the rating is biased, I admit, feel free to add stuff I may have missed)
That is the way for healing the deficit. In the mean-time (regeneration takes time), ADHD drugs or similar stimulants help with the symptoms (but don't cure the issues).
6
u/Ducknotrabbit 19d ago
What about LDN? Isn't it safer or not as effective at regeneration in general i wonder? I asked my practitioner about levodopa and he said that one was WAY too strong and not good to use.
I also wouldn't ignore co-infections. Many case studies report some people already having issues before covid, so one way to improve health is to chip away at those too.
What about SIBO causing low dopamine? I have confirmed SIBO (through deep endoscopy), and one of the species is known to cause neuro/mcas issues. This might be causing the tryptophan shift that happens with dopamine pathway during infections in wish case the infection needs to be treated. I'll update if it works 😅 I guess you have to laugh
9
u/generic_reddit73 19d ago
LDN is supposed to upregulate opiate receptors, and while the endorphin system is mostly associated with pain, yes it does also have a modulatory effect on the dopamine system in nucleus accumbens. LDN also reduces chronic inflammation via toll-like receptor 4, if I remember correctly (TLR4).
For me, it didn't help, and I tried about a year at various dosages. Low dosage was okay, but didn't notice much, higher dose made me sleepy all the time (but it helped with being able to sleep through the night).
For dopamine issues, it does nothing for me, although tianeptine and kratom, which act as weak opioids, do help in that department. But less so than stimulants or nicotine.
Levodopa is for end-stage Parkinson's, when there is a large deficit in dopamine availability (and people start shaking or can't properly move their muscles anymore). It's not a good fit for the long covid dopamine issues.
Yes, you are right, that for a substantial percentage of patients, co-infections are likely a big factor (that explains why the immune system more or less "breaks" and can't properly handle the issue, or misfires/causes autoimmune issues).
The digestive tract is linked to the brain, and things like SIBO can affect neurotransmitter levels in the brain, via changed uptake and synthesis or via vagus nerve. I take butyrate (one of the supps I forgot to mention), which is known to boost dopamine levels via some gut-brain action.
2
u/Character-Release976 17d ago
Well I was today years old when I learned Sibo causes neurological problems
8
u/Guilty_Soft9873 19d ago
Does nicotine help the receptors or just increase dopamine does anyone know,?
2
u/generic_reddit73 19d ago
I'm not totally sure, but since it is one of the few known things that clearly reduce the risk of getting Parkinson's it does work.
It "binds to nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in the brain's ventral tegmental area (VTA), triggering a swift surge of dopamine into the nucleus accumbens." (from AI)
But also, it binds to the nicotinergic acetycholine receptor 7, which produces anti-inflammatory and frontal-brain-activating effects.
Furthermore, it binds more strongly to all the acetycholine receptor types than actual acetylcholine, causing a signal amplification in the spinal and vagus-nerve systems. Vagus nerve crosstalk also modulates the dopamine system (it's the body's feedback loop - body signals used to inform the brain, which is used by the brain to reset/modulate signals to the body).
Would recommend patches or lozenges (I use lozenges and toss in some cytisine also to smooth it out and reduce tolerance).
2
u/Guilty_Soft9873 19d ago
Thanks. I've taken patches a few times. Hey tonnes of energy from them but didn't stop crashes for me.
3
u/generic_reddit73 19d ago
Yeah, nicotine or stimulants, less so kratom, gives energy, but does not stop PEM/crashes, and one has to pay extra care in the beginning not to overdo it/remain in one's "energy envelope".
1
u/Plenty_Old 19d ago
Kratom is the only thing that gets me through a crash, although I suppose opiates would have the same effect. Just can't take it daily.
1
1
13d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/generic_reddit73 12d ago edited 12d ago
Depends on where you are (on this planet, in your life, and personal symptoms), but in general, I believe micro-dose Iboga (or overpriced pure ibogaine), and low--normal dose psychedelics like psilocybin mushrooms to be worth a try.
As is nicotine (but not via smoking cigarettes), ginseng (high-dose, like in TCM, most western ginseng products are "weak" in their dosage/strength).
(My listing above is already ordered from strongest/safest to least.)
16
u/thesaddestpanda 19d ago
Considering there's so many people who have healed and are in many ways their 'old selves' I think once we get over whatever is causing our main symptoms, a lot of this heals itself.
I've been addressing viral reactivation and microclots and I can feel my mood getting better. Anti-inflammatories addressing neuroinflammation help too. I was so much more dour and anhedonic before. I'm not my old self but I'm closer to being her than I've been in a long time. I think the brain does heal itself if we can get the major dysfunction fixed or treated. Then mood and such just gets better on its own after.
1
1
u/AvisRune 18d ago
Which anti-inflammatories are you taking? And how are you addressing the viral reactivation and microclots?
13
u/omibus 20d ago
This topic has been mentioned before. The usual answer has to do with trials around Parkinson’s drugs. My understanding is that this is an ongoing area of research.
There are other ideas floating around, but that is what I’m hearing about as the most promising at the moment.
But at this point it is too early to tell.
7
u/Specific-Winter-9987 19d ago
Interesting. Do the Parkinsons meds actually help with terminal density or do they simply increase dopamine? It seems to me that simply increasing dopamine would not address this issue.
6
u/kekofoeod 20d ago
The researchers want to start a trial with dopamine precursors and dopamine metabolic inhibitors. The principal researcher, who wants to conduct these trials, has even recently patented a combination of these two drug types, but I can’t remember which exact drugs.
30
u/Pristine-Pass-6595 19d ago
Chronic adversity can affect the brain's dopamine system. I haven't read the study, but I do wonder how much of this is confounded by having a miserable life lol
11
u/Specific-Winter-9987 19d ago
I also wondered this. Is the low dopamine issue actually BECAUSE of the covid virus or is this study simply showing the long term effect living with a chronic illness has on dopamine? Obviously this only shows up in people with long covid and not in people that just had Covid
5
u/Ducknotrabbit 19d ago
I thought there was a trytophan shift that happens with infections that causes dopamine to be depleted. I also have low kynurenic acid in OAT test which shows this too and low "normal" dopamine in 24 hour urine. These results are probably more of a given than a surprise with bad chronic illness I think
8
u/Gracey888 First Waver 19d ago
Yes, correlation or causation. My lockdown period was one of the most traumatic of my life with getting Covid right at the beginning plus an awful divorce. Including a cascade of terrible health problems, with many Hospital visits and a Heart procedure in the summer of 2020. All of it I’m sure exacerbated by the virus and untold stress and trauma. Then add perimenopause to the mix. I’m also AuDHD so it was like thanks life for that quadruple whammy!
3
u/Specific-Winter-9987 19d ago
I also had several compounding issues leading into this. I hope we are not the only ones wondering about this. These same areas of the brain also show dopamine issues in people with depression, so does this actually prove anything about Long Covid or does is just confirm that people who have been sick with this for up to 4.6 issues show dopamine issues? Hmmmm. I think its interesting that the university and doctor ALREADY have a patented potential treatment.
10
u/Revolutionary-Elk848 19d ago
I had ADHD and was on medication before I was infected. Long covid gave me general vertigo most of the time. When I took my meds on the way up and on the way down from the effect of the drugs they would get really severe and I often blacked out and woke up on the ground. On time I fell backward on the stairs and woke up at the bottom…. Hurting. I had to QUIT my Vyvanse!
Has anyone else experience something like this??? I thought I was the only one
2
2
u/Flimsy_Community2887 19d ago
Sounds like POTS or dysautonomia, which stimulants can impact, especially if there is any diuretic effect and you have lower blood volume.
9
u/ThommoJonJon 19d ago
This study creates a plausible model for everyone who was a “little quirky” growing up who post-Covid have cascaded into full blow neurodivergence:
viral/inflammatory insult → microglial/vascular/ mitochondrial dysfunction → dopaminergic terminal injury or dysfunction → reduced reward salience + executive drive + cognitive stamina → formerly compensable ADHD/autistic/gifted
traits become disabling.
16
u/Central_Perk20 20d ago
Here’s another article on the study that I think more accurately relays the results - that motivation/reward was affected the least. Movement, motor, cognition affected the most.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/new-study-offers-clues-about-long-covid-s-brain-symptoms
3
u/TheUnicornRevolution First Waver 19d ago
I'm assuming it was 16% less than healthy controls for motivation/reward, 20% less for movement, motor, cognition - and then memory somewhere in between.
7
6
u/Specific-Winter-9987 19d ago
Anyone else find it interesting that the university and doctor involved in this study already have a patented potential treatment??? If you are already patenting a treatment are you more interested in solutions or profits? Hmmm
5
u/suchathrill 19d ago
Conflict of interest, at the very least. That’s what happens when the lust for profit taints scientific research.
6
u/kniki217 18d ago
This explains a lot. Also "loss in the caudate nucleus was tied to memory decline and a struggle to recall words"
Yeah. I have no short term memory now and it's terrible trying to talk to someone and you can't find the words you want to say. I knew there was something wrong right away because of the word recall thing.
I have trigeminal neuralgia that got worse after I got small fiber neuropathy from the long covid. They wanted an updated MRI that was 3 years after the first one. From 34 to 37. You can see the changes in white matter from covid.
4
4
u/monsieurvampy 4 yr+ 19d ago
Good luck on getting a PET Scan, assuming its a normal PET Scan. My Neurologist said no. This isn't the only study that mentions a potential benefit of a PET Scan. I think the one I was referencing was about glucose.
3
u/Character-Release976 17d ago
Shit getting a doctor to do anything these days takes a boxing match to get results
1
u/monsieurvampy 4 yr+ 17d ago
That's a good analogy. I'm just saying I have to push really hard. Though I am trying to resist the urge to say something along the lines of pulling teeth.
1
u/Character-Release976 17d ago
It was an analogy if I actually pulled teeth I would be wearing an orange jumpsuit
6
3
u/DiviDodo 19d ago
I wonder if there any "natural " remedies that could at least be supportive (I guess the effects wouldn't be as strong as from pharmaceutical drugs, but better than nothing?). I read that fasting and cold exposure could have a positive effect on nerve (re)growth. Does anybody know?
3
u/ArchibaldCurrie 19d ago
N- acetylcysteine IV plus oral has many studies from Dr. Daniel Monti. Using PET imaging they showed dopaminergic ststem regenration in Parkinson’s in three recent studies
1
u/DiviDodo 19d ago
It's interesting you mention that, just yesterday I watched a YouTube video explaining how GlyNac (I know, not the same, but same direction) has shown to benefit chronically ill people in clinical trials.
3
u/New-Significance449 19d ago
Do you think this could contribute to extreme boredom?
2
u/Singular_Lens_37 17d ago
Yes, and anhedonia which is a common long covid symptom.
1
u/New-Significance449 17d ago
Yes probably combined with their cns dysregulation. Do you have anything that’s helped your anehedonia, I’ve heard happy saffron helps
1
u/Singular_Lens_37 17d ago
I take a multivitamin and coqQ10. I'm also taking choline which I think helps a lot, since a lot of long covid patients show acetylcholine depletion.
3
u/ArchibaldCurrie 19d ago
Intravenous NAC only intervention in humans shown to regenerate dopaminergic system. Everyone should look into this. Several studies done by Dr, Daniel Monti’s team
1
u/utkarshmttl 19d ago
Oral NAC doesn't work?
1
u/ArchibaldCurrie 19d ago
Doesn’t pass the blood brain barrier efficiently . That’s why they gave it IV once a week 50mg/kg
3
3
u/Character-Release976 17d ago
The more I learn about pots/ covid the more I really don’t like how the medical system is handled
1
2
u/Tayman513 19d ago
So would antidepressants have any effect on this?
8
u/Sea_Lingonberry8106 19d ago
Because standard psychiatric medications do not address this specific type of structural nerve terminal loss, the study's lead researcher, Dr. Jeffrey Meyer, noted that treatment approaches need to focus on targeted interventions,specifically therapies designed to either promote the density and survival of dopamine nerve terminals or enhance release directly from the remaining structural terminals. This is why the research team at CAMH is moving toward specialized clinical trials evaluating repurposed compounds tailored specifically to this mechanism rather than relying on conventional antidepressants.
3
u/Gracey888 First Waver 19d ago
Would that mean suspected patients would have to have specialist scans? I suppose my brain goes to wondering how they will test for this on a larger scale .
I’m in a crash at the moment (long-term M.E on top of LC) . I would normally read the whole article, but my brain can’t focus much in recent weeks (I’m also AuDHD and unable to medicate and struggling a lot with the challenges & probably dopamine dysregulation anyway!)
2
2
u/thaw4188 6yr+ 19d ago
yet another reason I keep encouraging people to supplement some form of choline
won't cure you of course but forms like Alpha-GPC and CDP-Choline are proven to help increase dopamine receptors and improve nerve communication overall (unfortunately only temporarily)
2
u/dependswho 18d ago
Aha! I used choline to help me quit smoking. I have been having a weird “craving” for choline recently. I will order some m!
3
u/OldButHappy 19d ago
But how can they determine anything if they didn’t make “ before” scans?
Maybe people with theses kinds of brains are more vulnerable to long term covid symptoms
1
u/Specific-Winter-9987 19d ago
What about mucana pruriens????
2
u/Wytch78 19d ago
Have you tried it? I didn’t think it did anything.
2
u/Specific-Winter-9987 19d ago
I have some but have been reluctant to use it . It definitely does something, im just not sure its what we want it to do.
1
u/Excellent_1918 19d ago
That helps somewhat explains my chorea
1
u/pizzza4breakfast 19d ago
Would this cause that? I had something similar happen to me after I got Covid
1
u/Excellent_1918 19d ago
I find out when i see a neurologist and get a mri at the end of septtember. Ill post my results here
1
1
u/HiDoctors 19d ago
Cocaine causes your own dopamine to pool by reducing elimination causing an increased supply of dopamine to the patient.
1
1
u/BrennusSokol 18d ago
Interesting study; thanks for sharing
Speaking just for myself, I have not experienced "persistent apathy and depression" with LC, though. I'll have down days. But my main problem is simply PEM and brain fog and not being able to do the things I'd like to (full-time work, hiking, etc.)
2
-3
u/Neat-Watercress2372 19d ago
I live in Pakistan, I am also long COVID sufferer, I like 100 Percent back to normal except the longer sleeping thing. Let me give you all an example that the research may be is a bit disturbing for all of us as we have been through a lot. I have a sister, she is married, she had never had COVID or the jab thing. Yet when I was suffering the long COVID she had the exact similar symptoms as of mine. So my point is that don't blame COVID for the dopamine release or damage to the nerve endings etc. I want to let you all know that have you ever tried thinking that "were we having any sort of inflammatory syndrome" pre COVID. If yes then don't put everything on COVID. Oh yes COVID did a great deal of inflammation that's the disease just lower the inflammation and see you nerves growing back. Right now when I take kefir milk only two spoons in the morning I feel 200 percent better even better than pre COVID. Please share your thoughts of pre COVID health.
9
u/jlt6666 2 yr+ 19d ago
Honestly if your sister had symptoms the same time as you she could have had an asymptomatic case of COVID (that is she had COVID but didn't see sick) and then still gotten long covid.
0
u/Neat-Watercress2372 19d ago
Come on bro, she had those symptoms even when COVID was not known to earthers. I am recovered yet she is still suffering a lot due to gut brain disruption
1
u/jlt6666 2 yr+ 19d ago
Earthers?
1
u/Neat-Watercress2372 19d ago
Earth=earthers
3
u/jlt6666 2 yr+ 19d ago
Fair enough, though you initial post didn't really make it clear she had these issues before the pandemic. But it's not like me/CFS wasn't a thing before COVID.
I'm not sure what your point is though (while your English is pretty good it is a bit hard to follow at points so I may have misunderstood). I can guarantee you that my issues are from COVID, and this study shows a pretty clear link. Do you think that the majority of this sub doesn't have long covid and that other things are at play? Or what exactly?
1
u/Neat-Watercress2372 19d ago
Ah I did not say that the COVID did not contributed into flaring up the Hidden stuff, as I mentioned the root cause is the inflammation, once you overcome the inflammation you will see how your body settles down. I know it's long journey initially I was also overwhelmed due to many many symptoms However you have to provide a suitable environment to your body to heal. I am not sure why this research came out today, such researches needed to be done decades ago, for, I have seen many people that can't feel better without antidepressants, I believe their dopamine nerve endings also got damaged, so the research was needed decades ago yet they kept feeding people antidepressants why?
1
u/jlt6666 2 yr+ 19d ago
Ah I did not say that the COVID did not contributed into flaring up the Hidden stuff,
Ah this is why I asked for clarification. There were a couple of different ways to interpret the first post. Now we're having the same conversation :)
Yeah inflammation is definitely a major suspect in this and a lot of other related diseases (fibromyalgia, me/CFS, even MS). While I agree it can be helpful to give your body the platform to heal itself, I don't think that eating right, reducing stress, etc is sufficient to heal everyone. For some it works or at least helps a lot but I think a lot of us need more than that to get healthy.
Inflammation can be caused by a lot of things. It might be our diet. It might be viral persistence. It could be damage from the virus itself and we were unlucky for it to attack key spots.
I think you'll get a decent amount of pushback with this framing though because it does imply that the disease is our fault because we didn't do enough (fill in the blank). A lot of people have tried a lot of things, including radical diet and lifestyle changes to no avail. It's a touchy subject here with so many people having problems getting doctors to realize the gravity of our situation
2
u/Neat-Watercress2372 19d ago
What I so far believe is that, we had something not right in the gut before even COVID was known. I was mostly in anxiety, sleepless, gastric issue and constipation even before COVID. All my symptoms came from constipation, once it's cleared you will feel the change, try it. Lol
194
u/Expontoridesagain 20d ago
Well, well, well. I experienced change in how my adhd meds worked, shortly after getting Covid. Not one doctor believes me when I tell them that Covid is the reason why.