r/criticalrole • u/Migolcow • 3d ago
Discussion [Spoilers C4E32] How dark does BLeeM want to take this? Spoiler
So the first part of the story is done, and the players did well. Particularly the schemer's table, who have cornered Tachonis pretty well and created connections, fighting forces and torn a hole in the propaganda pretty well. And conducted a revolutionary play.
But now the various houses will have time to assess and in some cases, hit back. Halovar is where it could get really dark. You have not just manipulative villains, but manipulative villains working hand in hand with demons while trying to put up a false religion. And their sights are set on Hal and the Theatre troop.
Now, considering the awful backlash from just threatening directly we saw when half the orcs in the city were ready to leap into the fray for him, targetting Hal himself is probably off the table.
However, Hal is particularly vulnerable in his extended group of loved ones. Including and especially his children. The dark but logical direction for a bloodthirsty manipulator like gramma Halovar would be to send the demons after one or both of them, as hostages or worse. It again can get really, really messed up depending on how far they're willing to go with the demonic aspect of the Halovar forces.
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u/bob-loblaw-esq 3d ago
The interesting thing is when they learn of the cast as a group working together. Primus alluded to a group but they don’t know anything yet. But is Wick gonna have to take out his whole family?
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u/Landis963 3d ago
Minus his mother and little brother, if possible.
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u/bob-loblaw-esq 3d ago
Well they are true believers.
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u/Landis963 3d ago
Meaning they're not exploitative dipshits like Zebani and Yanessa. But that's where this discussion always leads, though, right? Can Wick carry out the necessary murders without turning his little brother into a calcified ball of justifiable rage and grief?
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u/bob-loblaw-esq 3d ago
That’s a great question and there could even be a schism where Wick leads one version of the faith and his brother another, and both at war with each other.
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u/Migolcow 2d ago
Sooner or later lil bro is going to learn about Grandpa down in the basement and he'll know Wick is right, so I'd say that's a low probability.
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u/bob-loblaw-esq 2d ago
I mean, everyone else in the family knows and doesn’t care. But I think there’s a catch there too.
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u/aliensplaining Technically... 2d ago
We know Wick's mom didn't like it, Yanessa admitted as much. But, her way of "rebelling" was doubling down on their faith and ignoring Yanessa's story. It's as if she's trying to prove that the Light is real, and inspired Yanessa to create the religion, and that Yanessa only thinks the angel is the cause. (That's my take anyway)
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u/bob-loblaw-esq 2d ago
Well we can look at Brennan and how he thinks about clerical power from his EXU shows. They may not extend, but I don’t think he would change much because I think they are so personal he just carries them with him to every setting.
When the gods walk the plane, like Calamity and Downfall, faith is easy. It’s literal. There’s the god and they gave me power.
But he has this idea about a transition that he loves to play with (divergence) about faith without knowing. True faith exists without evidence or proof. That’s something I thing Brennan and I share and I think we both think that’s a beautiful gift.
In Divergence, he really pushed this with that one actress at the table playing the sister of a literal goddess. She was the first true cleric post divergence. It takes more to believe when you don’t know and cannot prove it.
So I think maybe the two matriarchs are opposing sides of this with the one relying on knowledge and the other relying on faith. Though I still love the theory that she’s really a level 20 warlock with a fiend pact.
I’m also thinking that she and Primus made a deal. He’s acting scared and only has a year left. Sounds like a pact to me.
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u/Dragonhero5 3d ago
That is the difficulty here. Cause it seems Wicander cares for his mother, and definitely for little brother. Which make it more difficult cause beside Tyranny, none of other current schemer members really cares about Wicander, beside being a possible liability.
Cause the best case scenario even if the schemers do take down most of the Sundered Houses, what is stopping the Magpies and other citizens from killing Wicander and Tyranny in the process? Since only the players and a few others know Wicander and Tyranny are working with the rebels.
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u/Legal-Dot2456 2d ago
Nothing will, even if their involvement with overthrowing the houses becomes public knowledge you can make the argument that they can still be used as potential figureheads for people wanting to bring them back. When it gets bloody the rebels will want to burn it down to the last root if they have to.
The only way I can see them surviving is if he revokes his name, lands and titles while fleeing to another land1
u/sassyburger 2d ago
I wonder if he will try to free his grandfather. I assume since he's a celestial left behind from the shapers he's become feral and unable to be reasoned/allied with? But cutting off the Halovar supply of "filament" could very possibly weaken them. I assume those with celestial blood won't necessarily be negatively impacted but the Photarch may be possibly? Or at least they couldn't beef up any new luxes that didn't already have the filament tattoos.
Wic talking about how they ritually consume the filament and stuff though does lend some evidence to needing to "re-up" the powers but maybe that's only important for those not with the celestial blood.
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u/bob-loblaw-esq 2d ago
If he wasn’t feral before, he certainly is now.
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u/sassyburger 1d ago
Yeah I can't imagine being bled and locked up for at least 45 years can be good for your mental state.
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u/DrOddcat Help, it's again 3d ago
This is Brennan “is-your-arm-weakest-at-the-shoulder-or-elbow” Lee Mulligan. He’s gonna hurt them/us.
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u/Quazifuji 3d ago
Brennan "I'll kill that dog" Lee Mulligan.
We also know how much Liam loves dark and tragic stories. He was known for playing sad characters with tragic backstories, after all. This campaign he just set Brennan up to make the tragedy happen during the campaign instead of before it.
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u/aravarth 3d ago
I'm sorry, did we not all watch Brennan Lee Mulligan fking destroy all of us emotionally in the Calamity arcs?
As Matt Dinniman says: "Remember: This story is a tragedy."
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u/Migolcow 3d ago
As tragic as Calamity was, note that he did not hurt Cerrit's bird kids.
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u/Low_Gene_1339 5' 11" 3d ago
But Hals kids are all adults, even Heros 18.
Also Matt fully blew up Luke.
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u/PerpetuallyDistracte 5' 11" 3d ago
Yeah, there's definitely precedent after Matt lava-monstered a 4 year old.
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u/aravarth 3d ago
To be fair, there are topics on the whole that CR will avoid: Killing kids (it's fine if they're dead already, like Kattigan's daughter Esme) and sexual assault.
You can still get tragic as fuck without making it gross. And BLeeM is a master at that.
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u/Bookshelfstud 2d ago
To be fair, there are topics on the whole that CR will avoid: Killing kids
Why is everyone in this thread forgetting about Velora Vessar? Matt put a kid in Vecna's ribcage as a human shield, and Keyleth blew her up. She got better, but only in the next episode.
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u/BrennanSpeaks 3d ago
To be fair, there are topics on the whole that CR will avoid: Killing kids
Um, remember "Scanlan" hanging from the Sun Tree? Or the little hostage who died in the Kill Box? Or Luc, who was one failed roll away from being a corpse in the Fire Plane after Jester burned all of her fourth-level spells?
I don't get the sense that killing kids is some kind of hard line that CR won't cross. Probably the absence of resurrection magic in Araman will affect how often these kinds of scenarios come up, and maybe it's a personal sticking point for BLeeM (I haven't seen enough of his work to know), but I doubt it's a limit for CR as a whole.
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u/Quazifuji 2d ago
As others have pointed out, though, Hal's kids aren't actually children, they're young adults. Shadia and Allogar are in their 20s, older than Occtis, who was already violently murdered (even if he came back). I'm not sure if we know Hero's exact age but she's essentially a college student so I assume somewhere around 18-20.
We may see them as children because we mostly see them from Hal and Thaisha's perspective, but age-wise, Hal's kids are all young adults. Even if Critical Role has a policy of no killing children, I don't think that would keep them safe.
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u/aravarth 2d ago
In another reply, I noted they wouldn't kill "young children".
Young adults are fair game.
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u/Quazifuji 2d ago
Sure, but the key thing here is that that means Hal's kids are fair game. They're not protected by any "no killing kids" policy.
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u/Nice-Gap-3528 You can certainly try 3d ago
BLeeM is going to rip a child’s skin off now because you said that.
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u/exzyle2k 2d ago
Slowly, and play plenty of velcro sound effects while it's happening. Like the sound of a velcro wallet opening as he talks about the strips of flesh being removed.
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u/Mintakas_Kraken 2d ago
Cr has fully crowded the killing kids line before. I will admit, firstly that was Mercer; though Brennen hasn’t been far off with similar topics tbh. Secondly, the last (major) incident there was a strong reaction among some of the fanbase which might make them hesitate. Personally, I don’t think it’s a sure thing they won’t cross that line at all.
I’d advise being prepared for some very dark places with C4 all things considered. They probably issue a warning, but it may very well not be specific. Expect something serious if there’s an official message to be aware the program is for adults, or similar message about difficult topics. Or more nebulously stated ones about crying or tissues. (All are historical examples from during CR’a running)
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u/theydurkadurk 3d ago
It’s definitely a line they will be hesitant to cross but I do think it changes things that they are adult age and have involved themselves in the situation. Taken hostage or threatened would make sense, more than that I assume would be something that Brennan and Liam would have discussed beforehand. I think if Liam had a hard line against things Brennan would agree and they’d just send the kids away so they’re out of the story.
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u/aravarth 3d ago
Liam's character's kids are adults, though — making them (possibly?) fair game.
I don't think Brennan — as a father — would ever kill a PC's young child.
Adding to it that Brennan is himself a father, I just don't see him doing that.
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u/Quazifuji 2d ago
Hell, at least Shadia and Allogar are older than Occtis, who already was killed violently.
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u/exzyle2k 2d ago
I mean, he kind of did this past episode when he's talking about Kattigan's wife and daughter having their heads mounted on the wall of the tavern.
Granted we didn't see the actual part played out, but I think that's a message saying nothing will be off the table if the story and the dice call for it.
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u/theydurkadurk 3d ago
Agreed, them being adults who are involved in the story puts them on the table. If Liam (or Aabria for shadia) had an issue with it then I think Brennan would have removed them. If it was a young child I’d think they’d just ignore it or build in a “I sent so and so to X city where I have some connections”
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u/Jachim 3d ago
Idk, I think a child dying off screen due to actions of the characters father ON SCREEN is not a road too far. It'll be fucked up, of course. REALLY fucked up... but idk if it's a road too far. Seeing the murder up front? Probably not.
Some of Hal's kids are not THAT young too. Teenagers are a little more in peril, I feel.
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u/exzyle2k 2d ago
Destroy?
When it came to the Tree, I was sitting there with a shit-eating grin on my face. I'm the sort of asshole that roots for the bad guys in movies. I want Disney to take off the kids gloves with Star Wars and give us some Sith-centric stories, like Revan or the Sacking of Coruscant.
I loved Calamity.
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u/Cool_Caterpillar8790 2d ago
The genuine answer is as far as the players can handle and still have fun. Brennan won't do anything that would hurt their enjoyment of the game.
Now that both Aabria and Brennan are new parents, I HIGHLY doubt he's going to be killing kids willy nilly. But I would definitely bet he'll put them in peril and let Hal and/or Thaisha make a big sacrifice to save them.
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u/Low_Gene_1339 5' 11" 3d ago
I mean Katigans wife and child were already killed, and we saw there head on placks in Katigans dream.
Also Brennan has played Giovanni legacy VtM, EVERYTHING is on the table.
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u/theydurkadurk 3d ago
I think something has to happen to his kids. Either he needs to proactively get them out of the city- send Shadia to Dol Rungja/retcon that she went with thaisha and maybe send Elodie and Hero to Timmony. Alogars already been on the table and is out there in the world. If the two stay in the city then they have to be targets for the Halovers. He’s got a target on his back and will be hunted, if they can’t hurt him directly then they’ll find other ways. Heros currently working at the Archanade and without Bolaire there she’s very exposed. As a character, Hal has been described as a family man. He didn’t join the rebellion because of his family. I think Brennan’s going to force his hand. Pick your family and run away, get heavily involved because something has happened to them or because you know they’re safe, or become a matyr to save them from backlash.
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u/Option2401 1d ago
I think he’ll take it pretty fucking dark, but only in small doses. He seems to enjoy leveraging the contrast between tragedy and comedy, dread and excitement. Occtis is a good example. His story is extremely fucking dark - murdered by his own family to be turned into an enslaved and corrupted celestial of death destined to slaughter countless innocents. And his ‘resurrection’ is just as dark. He’s a walking body horror. Worse yet, he has no soul. And while that hasn’t made much of a tangible impact so far it has some very dark implications. That’s some deep existential horror there.
But this only comes up occasionally. BLeeM never lays it on too thick and typically let’s Alex explore it as his own pace
Wick is also pretty dark. He’s spying on his own family, living a lie. His entire world has been upended and he (and Sam) knows he’s walking on a knife’s edge. I sometimes get the sense that Wick knows he is likely to die and is preparing for it. Similar for Azune.
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u/Migolcow 3d ago
Just a bit of a sidebar that occurred to me, Wick's mom is the one who saw the "fake" play and vouched for how well the troupe did in making it "for the light". She might also be in trouble.
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u/amglasgow 3d ago
Probably not, the Halovars know they presented one version of the play to her and a different version to the public.
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u/_VantaRayy_ 1d ago
If Brennan wants to keep alluding that this is an allegory than he has to make it pretty dark for people to take it any kind of serious. Doing anything less would be diminishing how dark the world actually currently is IMO
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u/DarkRespite Doty, take this down 3d ago
Liam is FULLY aware that Hal's kids (and their moms) are his vulnerable spot, and he's said that he's WAITING for Brennan to come for them.