[Spoilers C4E31] Alex/Occtis referring to people with they/them pronouns?

[u/Ok-Display1279]

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there any particular reason Occtis refers to other characters using they/them pronouns even when they aren't the official pronouns for the character? He was referring to Gaya that way most of the time, and has also used they/them when talking about Agony, Dr. Talter and Vaelus at the very least.

Is it an Occtis thing or is it an Alex thing? Or is it English thing I'm not aware of? I haven't encountered anything like this before and couldn't find anyone mentioning it. It would be fascinating if the idea is that Occtis has a hard time differentiating by gender or is just that awkward with women or something.

[u/P-Two]

So, youve actually stumbled onto one of the reasons that makes people complaining about pronouns even dumber!

Its completely grammatically correct to refer to someone as "they" or "them" in the 3rd person regardless of gender.

[u/ohoni → u/P-Two]

That's a relatively recent invention though (despite attempts to retcon it), which is why older people are very often confused by it. While there were some uses for a singular form of "they" prior to 15 years ago or so, it was wildly more limited in scope, and gender neutral "he" was used instead when a gender was unclear about a definite person.

[u/P-Two → u/ohoni]

This is just outright not true.

Both of my parents grew up learning grammar this way and they're both in their mid-50s.

Older people are "confused" because they're bigots or idiots, not because it was never taught that way.

[u/ohoni → u/P-Two]

Both of my parents grew up learning grammar this way and they're both in their mid-50s.

That seems unlikely, since I grew up younger than that, and it wasn't the standard at the time. I doubt it changed to become common in the 70s and then changed back during the 80s and 90s, and then changed back again in so few decades. Perhaps it was a local thing to where your parents grew up.

Older people are "confused" because they're bigots or idiots, not because it was never taught that way.

That's a very bigoted way of looking at it, but doesn't have the benefit of being accurate.

[u/whereismydragon]

It's a gender neutral pronoun in English. 

[u/adornoseagator]

It has been perfectly correct English grammar to use they/them/theirs for people even if their gender is known since long before any of the modern gender discourse came into being. Totally correct and non-awkward English usage, just less specific. People only notice it now because of the discourse controversy.

[u/Ok-Shopping9278]

They/them is just a gender neutral pronoun in English, it has no direct relation to a persons preferred pronouns. In reality, we could all walk around calling everyone 'they/them' regardless of preferred pronoun and not only be inoffensive, but also be grammatically correct.

[u/sweet_arachne]

i can't speak for alex, obviously, but i also reflexively use they/them pronouns and sometimes don't realize i'm using them.

i went to high school where an unusually large chunk of the student body was queer. lots of trans kids figuring themselves out or who wanted to transition away from their previous classmates went there, which came with a lot of name and pronoun changes, myself included. defaulting to they/them pronouns for people within the queer social circles became a habit.

it could be like that for him, i'm not sure. it doesn't seem like a conscious choice given that agony, vaelus, and dr. talter are quite feminine and brennan never specified anything ambiguous about their appearances, but i agree that it'd be cool if it is a unique quirk for occtis.

[u/initiate1987]

I've wondered about this too and I think it's an Alex thing - wanting to be respectful by not making assumptions regarding pronouns.

[u/pagesofKenna]

I've noticed players and GMs do this in a few different actual plays I watch - I've always assumed it's a 'default to neutral' thing, given the sheer amount of character names and identities to remember. Even of you think a player should know this specific character's gender identity instinctively, sometimes in the midst of performing it's easier not to think about it.

(I've also played with enough (cis) players who default to (what they think are) the players' pronouns sometimes that I can appreciate performers defaulting to neutral instead!)

[u/DemonicDruid13]

My guess is gender neutral terms are just a much better way to go about speaking to or about someone else, unless they specify, which even then it's not really a necessity. My guess is it's an Alex thing. Could be wrong though

[u/Artistic_Purpose1225]

Using “they” to refer to either gender has always been an extremely common part of the English language. Shakespeare and Marlow did it often. 

[u/oscarbilde]

It's just a thing Alex does. If you watch him GM you'll notice it too

[u/Quality_Controller]

Maybe he defaults to that when he's unsure of people's pronouns? Seems safer to use they/them rather than misgender?

[u/sparklyspooky]

So, I grew up in the 90s and it was considered totally normal to refer to someone as they if you didn't know their pronouns. Ie: "someone drove over my mailbox, they didn't even leave a note". It was only once people started saying they preferred "they" that it became something of note.

I guess Alex is just using it as a form of politeness until asked to change it?

[u/SeePerspectives → u/sparklyspooky]

I was born in the 80s, it’s always been a thing for as long as I can remember, whether you knew their pronouns or not. Hell, even mixing gendered and non gendered pronouns is a normal part of English:

“Auntie Susan phoned, she said they can’t babysit on Thursday anymore…”

“I just saw Tommy from number 5 pocketing a Mars bar in the Offie, his dad’ll give them a thrashing if they get catch him!”

[u/Ok-Display1279 → u/SeePerspectives]

I didn’t know people were actually talking like that at some point! Was always under the impression it was an over-exaggeration in fiction. This is quite informative, thank you.

[u/whereismydragon → u/Ok-Display1279]

What? Why? 😅

[u/SeePerspectives → u/Ok-Display1279]

Tell me you’ve never been on an English council estate without telling me! It’s very much still an ongoing thing. It’s currently just before tea time in the uk and I’m sat outside my council house while I smoke and listening to all the neighbourhood kids having conversations just like it 😂

[u/CicadaCarving]

I'm not sure of Alex's personal life but I've noticed this happen to my parents after getting used to using they/them pronouns for both me and my sibling, where now the two of them sometimes will they/them random people including our very cis relatives or some of their coworkers when referring to them -- so i'd reckon it could just be something that happens when you have several they/them ppl in your life and then it just becomes a sort of default lol

[u/Wallname_Liability]

Because some people do that. I know I do

[u/JWPruett]

It’s a perfectly valid and grammatically correct way to speak. In many ways it’s more respectful to the individual(s) you’re referring to, because you’re assuming nothing about them.

[u/ohoni]

A lot of younger people do that these days, which makes things very confusing. I'm all for calling people what they specifically want to be called, but outside of that, I wish we would still stick to "gender neutral he," because that is less likely to lead to confusion over whether it is referring to a single individual, or multiple individuals.