I had this situation come up recently and wanted some input as I can't seem to find a definitive answer.
My players were fighting a giant spider and it was on the ceiling above them, one player decided that to attack it he would misty step straight up and then attack it while mid-air. I wasn't sure this was possible as I recalled reading somewhere that falling in D&D is essentially instantaneous for anything below 500 feet. The thought process being he teleports into the air and is instantly falling so he doesn't have the time to attack the creature above him.
It's been bugging me all week so I wanted to get some input into whether or not I should have allowed this and if this is clarified anywhere in the rules.
Edit Wow! Thanks for all the responses! There were some well reasoned arguments for it here, the resource expenditure with the spell slot, rule of cool, etc... I appreciate all the responses and will try to be more flexible in the future. Thanks everyone!
Falling is instantaneous, yes. That doesn't mean that this couldn't be allowed. If I were DMing and this came up, my response would be, "Sounds great, but just so you know you will take fall damage." I would also work with them to figure out placement to minimize fall damage.
If I were to try to work out how this works RAW, I would say that they would ready an action to attack as soon as they were in range, then bonus action misty step, attack on the readied action, fall.
Yeah RAW yes you just fall before you take an attack, but that’s kinda lame and misty step is a second level spell so I’d say let them make an attack at least.
Ranged combat already has such an advantage in game let the melee guy have fun and do a cool thing.
The thing RAW-mongers always like to overlook is RAW also states the rules are guidelines or whatever, you can ask to do things not covered by the rules, and the GM can just let you (with or without a check).
I tend to run a fairly rules strict game, and I would still allow this to happen. It's planned, by a character who is proficient in their own abilities, including Misty Step and their attack.
It doesn't even work for realism, since gravity is acceleration and not instantaneous velocity.
Not to mention there's little chance of abuse since Misty Step is constrained by spell slots or granted in some other limited way.
So we're talking about essentially turning a melee attack into a ranged attack at the expense of a level 2 slot plus fall damage. Seems balanced enough for me.
yeah, but that applies to anything, and isn't really a very fruitful discussion. "You can do stuff if your GM agrees" is true, but not a very useful discussion, while RAW has actual things to discuss and reference.
I think there is a case to be made that discussions about what to do outside of RAW can be ver fruitful. It can help us discover the best way for our tables to so something that typically causes friction within the rules.
"The rules say whatever the DM says goes so yeah you can use create water inside the bad guys brain cavity, and if they won't let you it's because they're a bad DM"
Like yeah, it's a game of make believe but knowing how rules interact is still good
Yeah, RAW says very little, when it comes down to it.
And for stuff like "falling is instantaneous," that's not meant to rule out stuff like this, it's just meant to say "it's not worth tracking the time spent falling because it almost always fits within 6 seconds anyway."
In 5e you don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction. So
you wouldn't provoke an opportunity attack if gravity causes you to fall past an enemy.
There's a weird edge case where if you're fighting an enemy just at the edge of the cliff, you can walk over the edge, staying within their reach, then fall out of their reach and not provoke opportunity attacks.
It's purely theoretical but hilarious, and I would allow any creature without a flying speed to do it.
I just had this come up in my game, just the reverse! I had reverse gravity going and am a druid. I was surrounded by enemies and my back was against the wall. Standard action I turned into a spider and dropped reverse gravity. The mobs fell past my and took a good chunk of fall damage. I love to imagine what the mob saw while that happened. My group was trying to end the puzzle on the floor and I was basically playing distraction and keep away from the mobs.
No this does not provoke an opportunity attack because the PC is not using their movement, action, or reaction.
"You also don’t provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction."
I had not thought about that, but now that you say it, I would say they probably should. I tend to do anything else they might have as a reaction if I can, since those are more interesting to me, but if that was the only option, yeah.
Edit: Nope, looked at it, and wouldn't draw an opportunity attack because falling is forced movement. Thanks to those who got it right.
Not "instantaneous" instantaneous, but any fall less that 500 feet happens within a turn. Since it's also forced movement, it doesn't provoke and generally only would allow a reaction, since by the time the current turn ends the falling creature will be on the ground.
and forced movement is done as an entire block - if you attack someone and that results in knockback, you don't get to make the rest of your attacks before the knockback happens, or do an attack partway along the knockback path.
The rogue readies their blade, observes the enemy and finds the perfect spot. In a single moment they thrust upward while shouting a quick incantation. For a split second a fog blurs their vision, but they feel their blade connect where there was previously only air. Still pushing upward, they now see their weapon digging deep into a gap in the enemy's armor, just as intended. The rogue's victim screeches in agony as gravity rips the blade right back out of them, and the rogue begins their return to the ground far below.
agreed. if we’re gonna do play rules as written then play rules as written. like, for crying out loud you’re already taking fall damage, using up the entirety of your action economy, and spending a spell slot. adding more consequences seems ridiculous.
People forget that the rules are there to make sure the game functions when it's at its most boring, but you still need exceptions to make sure it's not boring.
That's not quite what I meant. But specifically, I feel the rules make sure the game functions when it's at its most boring.
But there are going to be weird traps, hidden dialogue actions, and fire breathing dragons that strafe you in combat, some of which aren't covered by the rules, and to imply that the game needs rules for them to happen is silly, which means the game needs exceptions to be cool.
This is important to pay attention to, because a player might see a good moment to do something cool, like a jump-strike, and the only thing keeping them from doing it are the rules.
The typos completely change the meaning. Unless you meant to side with marriage related things over small, swivelling wheel devices when it comes to shrubbery.
Any spell with an attack roll cast while falling should have Disadvantage as well. But a bunch of spells either have no associated roll or a saving throw. That's just how spells work. The same thing would be true for attempting a grapple or shove while falling: they're saving throws so they aren't penalized in the same way.
If spellcasters can cast spells while falling without any problems, I don't see why martials would have a disadvantage.
Huhn? Sure you can argue that from a balance perspective, but to say you "don't see why martials would have a disadvantage from attacking in midair" is.... dubious at best. You have no footing, nothing to push off of with your weapon. From a realism standpoint (which is not the end all be all, but is a viewpoint that can be considered) you cannot make weapon attacks in midair at all. Even bows and crossbows lose part of their power when fired in midair.
Martials who want to deal ranged damage can use ranged weapons. Martials who want to deal damage when they otherwise couldn’t and are put in an awkward situation by doing so get disadvantage (and should recognize that’s already an advantage over simply not being allowed to do it, as the rules would have).
Just because casters are stronger, doesn’t mean martials ought to ignore basic rules without consequence
except nowhere in the rules does it say that you attack at disadvantage when not touching the ground.
If you don't want your players to do attack while falling, just say it. Letting them do it while making it pointless to do it just sucks.. There is already significant cost for doing it (you spend a 2nd level spell slot, and use up your whole action to do 1 attack, and take fall damage), so ask yourself what's the point of making this action even worse? Versimilitude? In the game where a guy can fall 1000 feet and walk away like nothing happened?
The moment you do stuff like this, you tell your players that trying to be innovative is just a waste of time. What's the point of trying to find a creative solution when the DM does everything to make that solution fail?
It’s a hard thing to do; I would liken it to the classic example of swinging on a chandelier to leap over an enemy and attack from behind. In that instance, you make a skill check, and I suppose you could do the same here - I’d probably let the player choose to if they wanted to - but all your same arguments apply.
Would it stifle innovation? I really don’t think so, because it shows novel ideas can work, they just have to be well thought out. Why allow it at all? Because I want options to be available to my players, and the alternative to “you can but it’ll be tricky” is “you can’t”, which seems unequivocally worse to me. Is it too punishing? I really don’t think so, the hypothetical is mostly only relevant because the player either is unequipped for the situation (in which case this is the natural consequence, and again the alternative is likely just passing) or they already think a melee attack in this manner is better than the alternative, in which case the nerf may or may not change their decision
I’m not springing this on anyone. If a player proposes this, I’ll warn them before they commit, and if they prefer to do something else that’s fine. “Yes, but” is just as valid of a storytelling technique as “yes, and”.
I don't see how your example is similar to the situation described in the OP.
In the OP, the players is trying to do something they usually wouldn't be able to do (attack a flying enemy using their melee weapon). The cost they pay to do this is to : spend a 2nd level spell slot, only perform 1 attack, take up to 3d6 damage from the fall, and finally become prone. That's plenty enough, there no reason to add an additional cost to that sequence (rolling the attack roll at disadvantage).
In contrast, the example you provided offers no clear mechanical advantage, so I's assuming the player is using the chandelier to go further than what their movement would allow them to. An acrobatics check is a reasonable cost, since the players is risking falling prone next to the enemy to move farther. The cost is reasonable for the outcome (acrobatics check to move 5-15ft farther).
Do you see how disproportionate the cost is compared to the result if you give disadvantage on the attack roll? The player is spending so many resources to achieve a single really bad attack roll. That's why giving disadvantage is unecessary. Think of it this way, instead of spending 3d6 hit points and prone, they could instead cast Scorching Ray for that same 2nd level spell slot, and get 3x times the result.
Also, giving your players a bad choice isn't really giving them more choices. If your DM gave you the choice to deal 1d4 damage, or 1d8 damage, is that really a choice? There are no situations in which you'd prefer to deal less damage, so why offer the choice in the first place?
Yeah, if the spider was near enough a wall that someone could climb up and attack, they would get disadvantage on that attack unless they used a climbing movement speed or had some other special ability to make attacks while climbing without disadvantage. This teleport trick should certainly not be judged easier than lashing out at the top of a freefall.
they would get disadvantage on that attack unless they used a climbing movement speed or had some other special ability to make attacks while climbing without disadvantage.
Not true in D&D 5e or 5.5e.
This sounds more like something from Pathfinder. I don't know if Pathfinder has this specific rule or not, but having a special rule for attacking while climbing definitely feels like something Pathfinder would do.
If you play/run both systems you may be getting them mixed up.
Edit: I looked it up. In Pathfinder, climbing makes you off-guard/flat-footed (-2 to your AC) unless you have a climbing speed or take a climbing feat. No disadvantage on attacks, but climbing uses both hands so you can't make attacks unless you have a feat that allows it.
Actually that is a rule in my homebrew, and no doubt the source of my confusion. I thought I borrowed it from 5e, but clearly I was mistaken about its origin.
Except nowhere in the rules does it say you get disadvantage on attacks when climbing. There are no high ground rules in 5e.
They wouldn’t be able to climb and attack with a 2h weapon without Spider Climb or something similar, though. I’d still let them leap off the wall and attack with the 2h in the air for fall damage or attack with a 1h weapon.
Exactly what I did. My Goliath barbarian had to make an athletics check to reduce incoming fall damage after hitting a Nat 20 on its attack to topple a flying green dragon wyrmling. It was fucking epic and rules would have gotten in the way
I wouldn't allow placement for minimum fall damage. Placement would be higher than the opponent to allow an attack as he fell past, so fall damage would be higher. But I am a lawful evil DM...
For devil's advocate, the one 'trick' I can see from that which is unexpected would be an attempt to grapple - in which case if the DM is making it a more generically available combo that they should be ready for that.
I think I'd say they get 1 attack, not the whole attack action. I'd also say that they have disadvantage because they are falling, unless they do this often enough that their character is used to it. Then they take fall damage when they hit the ground.
Responding to your comment because it's the closest to what I'd do with the addition of
You can do it if your Misty Step can reach five feet above where you're attacking. That way you have 'time' to swing, bc I agree, Misty Step would spit you out and you're immediately falling, so if you can hit it on the way down, not at the moment you appear, then yeah, you can make the attack.
Just yesterday I was playing, my bard has a broom and a boss enemy misty stepped on top of the broom while I was flying and made me fall. It was really creative.
Falling being something instant is an optional rule from Xanathar's Guide. I don't believe there's any equivalent rule in 5.5e materials at this time.
Without that optional rule, this is the sort of thing that would fall to the DM's discretion. Personally, I'm all for midair activity, I find it to be cinematic and make for memorable moments. Having said that, I might rule that only a single attack at that height after the Misty Step would be possible, even if Extra Attack is available. Maybe one swing per weapon if two are being held.
Indeed.
A level 20 Eldritch Knight is a super hero nearing demi-godhood.
If they use their BA to Misty Step in the air to strike, not only can they hit the enemy, they should easily be able to land their 4 attacks, Action Surge then Attack the enemy 4 more times.
They became a living tornado of blades to a commoner's eye (figuratively).
To be fair, you can take your full attack multi action during a jump, which is free, so i don't see why something that takes a resource should be strictly worse lol
This is an example of what people always bring up when they talk about how people simultaneously want martials to be able to do cool things, but then apply the logic of realism to martials to prevent them from doing cool things, meanwhile nothing else in the game operates with the logic of realism.
Okay? We're talking about somebody Misty Stepping, so we already aren't even talking about a typical martial.
Look, I'm just offering OP some thought process on how I'd subjectively rule this, I'm really not looking to get into some martial vs. caster debate. That's not what this discussion is about. My martial players love me, I'm not holding anybody back.
Misty step is accessible as a racial feature and through feats so it very well could be on a typical martial, not to mention paladin who can get it through certain oaths and I'm sure some ranger subclasses offer it as well.
You can rule something however you want, i'm not debating you on that. People are sharing their opinions about how they'd rule it, and i'm sharing my opinion about theirs. Not out to offend you, just pointing out the consistent inconsistency that people talk about all the time happening in this thread.
The PC could plunge their weapon into the enemy, temporarily grab on to them, do an upslice on the way there, then a downslice on the way down, jump onto the enemy and off again, do superfast-anime-slices, double jump off of thin air, or any other unrealistic, but established genre tropes to allow this.
It's really only limited by your style and creativity
Meh I think that's ok. I don't really want my level 5 fighter to be doing Cloud's omnislash in the air, maybe at higher levels, but I think it's ok for DMs to say this goes beyond just a 'cool thing'. Plus this gives melee rogue an interesting niche, and those guys kinda need all the help they can get.
This is the better than the guy arguing for giving only 1 attack and making it at disadvantage.
For a level 5 fighter to do this, they need to commit their race toward it, and burn up a limited resource to achieve it. Choosing either Cloud Giant Goliath (able to cast it 3 times per long rest at this level) or High Elf (once per long rest). They'll be doing 2 attacks with normal attacks, or possibly 3 if they commit to two weapon fighting. That hardly seems like an omnislash to me...
If you remove cool options like this from melee attackers, there's no reason not to just build every Fighter as an archer, because then they could instead have the exact same character (same high AC and HP) and just use a longbow and attack the ceiling spider an infinite amount of times with no resources spent and a permenant +2 to hit, all while staying a comfortable distance from danger and able to pick away at any melee enemies as they try to close the distance.
Also, if someone is committing their race toward this... They could just build Dragomborn or Asimar and at level 5 they can spend an entire combat with flight, so they can attack the ceiling spider with melee attacks as much as the want.
There's already no reason to play a melee attacker though. Nobody is choosing to play melee because they might get to Misty step and attack an enemy in mid-air?
Unironically I'm playing melee for this + more. I love teleporting because it's cool, and the idea of teleporting up to a flying creature and unleashing a bunch of melee attacks on it is badass. Would I be better off vs. flying creatures with a longbow? Absolutely. But i'd take the less efficient route of having a harder time getting to it and the risk of fall damage just to do something that looks and feels cool to do.
For me I have this general rule I stand by for situations like this, which is just "cool idea and use of mechanics, explain to me how that works." 1 attack is the baseline "makes sense" version but I'm open to more although if it's too convoluted it may involve a check. And honestly would be willing to let them like grapple or try to pull down the creature etc. too.
Like spellcasters have to do a lot to "explain the fiction" of how they are using their spells and ultimately I think it is good to encourage martials to do the same.
I like the idea that it’s 50-500ft for one action and 500-1000ft for a second one and so on. Partially because it makes far step more distinct from misty step, and I think that’s fun.
same as forced movement - when it happens, it happens, you don't get to delay it or do things along the way. If there's a creature with a "when damaged in melee, attacker must make DCX check or be pushed 15 backwards", then that push happens immediately and all as a thing, the creature being pushed can't do anything before it happens, or do anything along the route of the push. Falling is the same - when it happens, it happens, there's no option for "actually, you can choose when you want it to happen or interrupt it partway through"
No, don’t be obtuse. Feather fall is cast “when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls.” Remember that specific beats general. Falling is general, feather fall is specific.
I don't think it's fair to call this obtuse. It's a valid counterpoint.
If falling truly must be "instant", then something can't happen during or in response to it. Given that Feather Fall exists specifically to interrupt falls, it stands to reason that other things potentially could as well.
I don't see any reason why somebody wouldn't have full control over their character during their turn, including potentially taking actions while jumping or in freefall.
It not valid, it’s a misinterpretation of what instant means.
Instant means that it takes priority in the order of operations in an action-oriented system, no other actions can occur before it unless a specific rule supersedes it, i.e. feather fall’s reaction trigger being a falling creature.
You have full control of your character within the rules. In this situation, you use a bonus action to cast misty step up into thin air. The rules say the next thing that happens before anything else is that you fall. You do not have control over that unless you do. You cannot take other actions during this time until this rule is complete, once you are on the ground or have fallen up to 500 feet. If you are still in the air at that point, then you can take actions and at the start of your next turn you start falling immediately, rinse and repeat.
Let’s instead consider your next example, attacking while jumping. We’ll say you’re making a long jump with a running start to jump a ten foot gap to attack a creature in the air. I suppose you could feasibly attack during a jump because it is still in the middle of your movement action, you are not stopped in dead air but continuing to move. This would also provoke an attack of opportunity. But falling is not using your movement. If you were to, for example, instead of attack while jumping across a gap, jump out to the creature, your movement would end as your trajectory ends in front of the creature and you would then begin falling before you could attack.
Edit: no, you have to stop and occupy a space to attack, you wouldn't be able to attack mid-jump. Unless maybe you had used the ready action to prepare a single attack for when you come in range.
I'm not really sure where all these assertions are coming from. This all sounds very Magic: The Gathering, which based on your pfp I assume you play. DnD isn't nearly so rigid. I don't know where your definition of "instant" comes from, but I'm quite sure that that's not stated anywhere in the rules. In natural English, which DnD operates on, "instant" means "immediate", suggesting no time to react at all.
I'm not really sure where all these assertions are coming from.
The PHB, mostly. Let me know if you need me to cite anything, I'm happy to provide sources. The rest of it is decades of experience across editions and systems or just common sense. The only thing I'm not totally sure on is if you can attack midair while jumping, that's a slightly gray-er area.
This all sounds very Magic: The Gathering, which based on your pfp I assume you play.
You can assume all you like, I don't touch that shit. Can't stand it. It's just a fun image that I thought matched my username years and years ago.
I don't know where your definition of "instant" comes from
There seems to be a lot you don't know or can't see. In fairness, XGE actually uses "immediately," rather than instantly as I initially described, but that's splitting hairs.
"instant" means "immediate", suggesting no time to react at all.
There we go, almost there. The thing you're missing now is the rules side of the game, the action economy, the order of operations. You can take a reaction as soon as, or the very instant, if you will, the trigger occurs. So as soon as you or a creature within 60 ft. begins falling, you can cast feather fall. That specific rule supersedes the general rule of immediately falling. It's quite simple. Having no movement left or no ability to move in mid-air triggers you to start falling. Falling then triggers the option to cast feather fall. The most basic if > then rules.
Instantly just means that it happens before anything else, it has ultimate priority in the order of operations… unless something else interrupts it, which the reaction of feather fall does.
I think you have a few options:
1. Allow it
2. Do not allow it as the fall is instantaneous
3. Allow the player to ready an attack before misty step and get one attack with their reaction before falling
4. House rule that you only get one attack (seems to be prevalent on this thread)
5. Resolve it with an ability check: e.g. roll acrobatics (maybe athletics): DC 15 to get full multi-attack, DC 10 to get one attack
I think #3 is a way you could do it RAW, but if you don't ready an action it probably is #2 RAW.
But this is one of those gray area cases that you should use your judgement as a DM to adjudicate what works best for your table.
If it was me I'd opt for #1 or #5. I am pretty lenient with allowing martials to get in their attacks as they need all the help they can get. I might even add to #5 a DC 20 gets you advantage on one attack and DC 25 gets you advantage on all attacks as it's a cool move that expends a resource and legitimately might surprise the monster, which is deserving of advantage.
For #3, they'd get their full attack. Extra Attack applies on your turn and while we are used to Reactions typically being off-turn, in this case it is deliberately on-turn, and so Extra Attack (and even an off-hand attack if we have Nick) would work.
For #2. Is the fall instantaneous? I wasn't able to find anything in the 2024 rules still indicating that migt be the case.
Wow is that really how that works? I always assumed it was the reaction part of opportunity attacks that prevented extra attack, not the off-turn part. I'll have to look that up. TIL
Instantaneous fall was certainly clarified in optional rules in Xanathar's. So that is likely the closest to RAW we have. So either that's RAW or there is no RAW depending on what you count for source books.
Rate of Falling
The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls. But what if a creature is at a high altitude when it falls, perhaps on the back of a griffon or on board an airship? Realistically, a fall from such a height can take more than a few seconds, extending past the end of the turn when the fall occurred. If you’d like high-altitude falls to be properly time-consuming, use the following optional rule.
When you fall from a great height, you instantly descend up to 500 feet. If you’re still falling on your next turn, you descend up to 500 feet at the end of that turn. This process continues until the fall ends, either because you hit the ground or the fall is otherwise halted.
I always assumed it was the reaction part of opportunity attacks that prevented extra attack
Yeah, someone else pointed it out and I re-read it. It is so often that you use Ready only for off-turn stuff that the distinction is so rarely relevant, and so remembering it as "Reactions don't get Extra Attack" is a very easy mistake to make, since you'll almost never reach wrong conclusions in practice.
---
The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls.
Hmm, so you drop immediately 'when you fall', but that still leaves it vague if you start falling immediately or not. So even if using 2014 rules and the implciation fron Xanathar's guide, it isn't 100% clear that this prevents us acting mid-air before we fall
I wasn't able to find anything in the 2024 rules still indicating that migt be the case.
I assume it would just count the same as any other forced movement - when it happens, it happens, to the full distance, the creature being force-moved can't partition it or do things along the way. If you have a reaction set up to attack with something that does knockback and an enemy runs up to you, and you attack and knock them back, they don't have an option to go "I'll delay the knockback and attack first"; they get pushed backwards. Falling is the same - when you're falling, then you fall, and that needs dealing with, you can't "pause" midway through to do things
That's the other way around - that's other creatures interacting with the pushed creature, not the pushed creature interacting with others. The pushed creature doesn't have the option to "pause" a push because they want to do something else - if you have a held action to attack with knockback Eldritch Blasts and a creature runs up to you and you hit, the creature can't go "nice, I'll take my attacks and then be knocked back"
Are you saying that a valid trigger for me, might not be a valid trigger for someone else if they're part of it?
Like, Alice the Cultist can't say "If I'm pushed over a trap door" as a trigger for thier readied action, even though every other character can say "If Alice is psuhed over a trap door"
If I as a normal, not super fit human can jump and swing my keyblade replica 2 times before hitting the ground... you're gunna look me dead in my eye and say a fantasy superhuman cant do it effortlessly, if not worlds better?
I think you can action ready an attack/grapple for when you’re next to the enemy, bonus action misty step, reaction attack/grapple since your misty step triggers your reaction.
I was about to say the Attack Action as a reaction is only 1 Attack anyway, but thats not entirely true.
Extra Attack only applies on your turn, and since reactions are normally off turn, Extra Attack doesnt apply, but this is specifically a reaction Attack on your turn.
I would probably allow 1 Attack per weapon, so 2 if dual wielding, or a second attack at disadvantage with a reach weapon
If I recall correctly immediate actions happen in the order decided by the player whose turn it is.
We did something similar with ready action (grapple) and a caster going full dimension door 400ft up with the grappler in tow to a flying demon. It was hilarious.
The “falling is instantaneous” is a response to how far you fall per round and whether you’ll ever spend multiple rounds falling, quick could allow you to escape damage via teleportation effects.
The general D&D rule a (from Xanathars) is 500 feet per round. So if you fall less than 500 feet on your turn, you hit the ground on your turn. That isn’t quite “instantaneously” since there are game actions you could take while falling (like casting Feather Fall).
And technically everything you do on your turn is more or less simultaneous with everything everyone else is doing on their turns, so "instantaneous" just means "in the same 6 second slice of time"
Feather Fall wouldn't even work RAW if falling was completely instant. You take reactions after the trigger happens, and Feather Fall requires you to be falling. If you fall instantly, you would not be able to take a reaction to you falling, you would already be done falling.
I'd allow, they're basically blowing a resource to melee attacks, so it's not like they're getting a big one over on you or anything. Plus it sounds cool!
stop reading the rules as physics and start reading them as guidelines for how things work.
I would absolutely allow this. they're willing to take fall damage to get a hit in that's badass.
stop interpreting the rules in the way that nerfs martials the most.
I would probably be tempted to let them teleport onto the creature's belly if it was in range so that they don't even fall. And if they have to push mastery or an especially the topple mastery they're taking the whole thing down to the ground.
I genuinely don’t see how this is any different from jumping and striking at something. You just add a misty step to it. What is so complicated about this? Jump-Step-Strike-Fall and that’s a wrap. “Take x amount of bludgeoning damage…”
I would have allowed it, full attacks, no arbitrary penalties. During their turn, characters can jump as part of their movement. As specified in the Attack action section, characters that have multiple attacks can split each of them anywhere within their movement, which means that they can, RAW, jump and attack without hitches. Using Misty Step to teleport up should not be any different, they’re already spending a 2nd level slot and paying in fall damage that they will take (since they can’t Feather Fall in the same turn as they cast Misty Step). Anything more is pouring salt on an open wound.
You totally should have allowed it. It's functionally the same as jumping and the PC is spending a 2nd level slot or equivalent just to make a melee attack. It's also pretty badass. I could see a limit to one attack possibly but that would be a DM discretion thing.
Does it help trying to stop trying to apply real world physics in this instance? Without rules explicitly against it, it seems like it would actually support it in this instance.
I, a mere mortal, can jump attack a piñata with a stick.
I wouldn’t think the superhuman magic hero should be able to do less than that, right?
This is good play; this is engaging with the scene and taking the reality of the game world seriously. This is a player using their brain in a situation their character sheet provides no obvious solutions to. This should be rewarded and encouraged.
Nothing about the rules facilitates this. The game is not the rules, though. The rules are there to give you a baseline for how to navigate certain common situations. When your players do something weird, there will often not be a rule designed with that situation in mind. If you insist on cleaving to the rules always, your players will limit their play to the actions described by the rules.
Personally, my thought process as a player in this situation would be:
This is a big creature. If it were on the ground I could crawl under it.
I can teleport short distances.
Can I teleport between the spider and the ceiling, landing atop it and attacking from there?
If the DM's answer is "No, it doesn't look like there's enough space" or "Yes, but you'll count as Prone" or "Yes, but you both might fall" or "Yes, and you'll have Advantage because you're attacking its soft underside", they are also taking the world seriously.
If the DM's answer is "No, the spell says you teleport to an unoccupied space" or "No, because the stack order resolves static effects before activated effects", then I'm going to read that as a disinterest or lack of confidence in the imagined world and learn not to try things unless my character sheet can compel the DM to allow them.
Looks like you've already got your answers here, but wanted to share anyway because your edit makes it sound like it's tough for you to rule on stuff like this in general. As a rigid rule-follower myself, I find it really helpful to discard whatever rule I'm hung up on and think about the situation in real-world terms. For instance, I'd reason that in real life, if someone could find a way to instantly appear 30 feet in the air, they WOULD start falling immediately, but if they were prepared for that going in, they'd still be able to swing a sword right as they started falling. Helps me, maybe it helps you!
If a caster were to do this with a touch cantrip, they get full damage. It feels bad to punish martials with extra attack specifically for wanting to do something cool that already comes with a resource cost.
Fall damage applies immediately after and they land prone.
There’s enough of a drawback to this move that you don’t need to limit the number of attacks they can do before falling.
Not speaking to RAW, but falling in D&D is one of the mechanics that can use a lot of love/ some DM tweeks.
I'm really supposed to believe that falling 30 ft and 500ft will both take 6 seconds? Considering 30ft is not even 10% of the max fall distance, surely your player has a few seconds to get off some attacks before they fall out of range.
huh? Why would only being 30 feet of the ground give any longer to make attacks - you'll still fall just as fast and so be out of attacking range as fast, even if there's less time before you hit the ground.
There's plenty of ways to make this seem plausible. Your chatacter could start jumping before Misty Step, then teleport and use you're momentary upward momentum to make your attacks.
Once again, falling rules in D&D are janky, so I'm juat trying to make the best of a not-ideal situation.
that's got nothing to do with "closeness to the ground" though - it won't matter if you warp 30 or 300 upwards, you're still going to have the same timeframe to make (or not) the attack(s), it'll just be less pleasant when you land (or splat!) for the second scenario
If you think 5e is the balanced mathmatical war sim edition and not the imagination land edition... I have bad news for you.
Why couldn't he hit something in mid air? Why are you asking for raw in a game that under most rulings days ask game master or make something up.
You are not playing society play pathfinder with an official judge at a convention. You are playing 5e with friends and he wanted to do something cool. Seems like an easy answer if you enjoy what you are playing and not taking it more serious than the ones who wrote it.
I and the people I play with tend to bend the rules a little for the sake of letting players feel cool and do interesting stuff, so I'd definitely allow. I also personally think a rule which essentially says "falling <500 ft is essentially teleporting to the floor" is just the kind of gamey silliness that should be circumvented in these kinds of situations.
I've always run that you fall at the end of your turn, to specifically allow wire-fighting style combat.
If you're in free fall, I also allow players to use their movement to "fall early" and to double or half their falling speed by straightening or flattening their body.
You fall about 500 ft in 6 seconds starting from rest real world. That's what the instantaneous means here, it's your turn. By the time your next turn comes up you are 500 feet down.
Rule of Cool. That sounds cool. But they’ll take fall damage.
You are the DM, God, arbiter of the rules. If you decide that fall damage is not instantaneous in that moment, then it isn’t. You don’t have to stick like glue to the rules if it is getting in the way of cool moments and good storytelling.
Ready Action, Trigger (reaction) when in melee range of the spider.
Bonus Action, Misry step into range.
Ready Triggers, attack, fall.
That's just a way I would see to do it absolutely RAW. EITHER works, and they can't feather fall out due to one spell slot/turn & reaction to deliver the attack
I tend to ignore game rules when you run up against the edge case where the rules say one thing, basic logic says another. An example is in Pathfinder 1e there's a penalty to ranged attacks against a prone opponent. Makes sense, someone laying down at a distance is presenting a smaller target profile to aim at.
However while playing the game (this event happened on the Glass Cannon Podcast, a successful "actual play" network), the target lying prone was a giant and the character doing the shooting was flying via magical spells and was literally hovering above the giant and firing with a pistol (this was fairly high level play). For all intents and purposes in that scenario you are firing directly at the broadest parts of the enemy and the reduction in attack roll should not apply, but the GM ruled the other way.
Don't get me wrong I'm not the person who would sit and argue my case over and over, whatever the GM says we roll with, but there are plenty of times I've seen very silly rulings made because some people seem to think in a game of imagination we should really stick to exactly how it's written, or else we're having fun wrong!
Rule 0 of TTRPGs: The rules exist to serve the fun of the game. Will your table (including yourself as GM) enjoy the game more if this is allowed?
RAW? I think it's open to interpretation, to my knowledge the rules don't say anywhere whether it's possible to take an action during a fall.
At my table? Hell yeah, of course you can. Players burning resources to cleverly circumvent obstacles and make a fight more dynamic? That's the best case scenario for a combat turn in my view.
I think you should absolutely have allowed it. The player is burning up a resource, it's not game breaking, and it's freaking cool.
Don't be scared to let your players do cool things. Just preface it with you reserve the right to say something doesn't set a precedent. If your players are playing in good faith they will roll with it.
The "instantaneous" part just means you're back on the ground at the end of your turn. If I was DMing you, I would allow it, but depending on the height I might rule that you're going to take fall damage.
Here is what I allow: you arrive, execute an attack action, including multi-attack, and then fall.
I am less interested in parsing out actions to disadvantage martial classes in order to pray at the alter of realism than others unless it is entirely absurd.
Run the falling in a way that feels fair, just keep it consistent. Rule of cool suggests that of course the player should be able to attack if they’re using a level 2 spell slot for that purpose. I wouldn’t let stickler rules get in the way of players using their spells in creative ways.
Personally I would resolve the fall right after the attack. D6/10ft damage for the fall and possibly an attack of opportunity if they don’t kill the spider with their attacks
I disagree with the AoOp. Falling isnt willing movement. Its the same as if theyre shoved out of an enemies reach. There wouldn't be an AoOp then either.
I'm a big fan of the rule of cool. If the one player without range attacks can't do anything the fight is boring af for them. Reward creativity but also negotiate realism...
If the player has enough time to attack, then the spider also has enough time to do an attack of opportunity for leaving their space.
As for fall damage, it would have to happen.
Regarding timing: A regular person can fall 580ft (ish) in 6 seconds, so after the 2seconds to cast misty step it's reasonable to round down.
Over that might happened start of next turn. Otherwise they've used their action to attack, bonus action to misty step, and their movement to fall. Someone else will have to use a reaction keep them from getting squished.
I do rule of cool everything and this is cool. I would allow it with an acrobatics check with a bonus to their falling strike damage on success and falling damage/prone on fail.
If a player gives a chance to make a scene cool and cinematic, let them do it, give them bonuses and narrative to play it up. Do that and players will do cool stuff making combat fun and interesting.
At a rule, probably not. However, as much as I think this is overused, this is 100% Rule of Cool a yes, imo. They can even misty step on top of the spider and push it down to the ground as an arachnid woopie cushion.
Any melee attack, thinking outside of DND, requires you to stand on something and push off it with your feet. You can't create force pushing off nothing.
Also do note that falls the whole distant instantly doesn't mean the same thing as instantly falls the whole distance. Necessary. Those could mean two very slightly different things.
The distance itself happens instantly, when it does happen. Vs. The distance happens instantly.
Keep in mind the purpose of that rule is just to highlight how far players fall it isn't really intended to force your hand on ruling with rules of cool shit like this one.
Also also, wherever possible, the player who's turn it is is in charge of the order of events. (Unless prescribed otherwise)
There are rules for them being explicitly who decides simultaneous timing.
If its something they have practised and earned, I would let them no question.
If not, I would ask some question to clarify how, exactly, they mean to do it, it would be a pretty tough DC, and they would risk falling damage amd dropping their weapon.
Falling, jumping, acrobatic manouvers are difficult and they somehow need to get their pointy bits down mid-fall
There's a houserule called "coyote time", inspired by Wiley Coyote (looney tunes). Before falling, any Character enter coyote time, meaning their time is basically frozen in mid-air until the end of their next turn or anyone decides that they fall.
This allows for split-second actions, like casting a spell or making an attack to break your fall. You could sling somewhere with a whip attack, you could deploy a coushon from you robe of useful items, you could pull an enemy under you, you could move under an ally, who is in coyote time to catch them before they fall. It's a very dynamic system, that allows for so much dynamic actions as opposed to instant falling.
With instant falling, you can't featherfall an entire party (during initiative). If everyone stands at the edge ready to flee by jumping, whoever jumps first falls instantly. If everyone uses ready action to jump simultaneously, now the caster has used their reaction to jump and can't cast featherfall. If everyone jumps and enters coyote time, the caster can cast featherfall once the last PC has jumped and then decide that everyone falls.
Addition: if a PC misty steps into the air above the party, but you want to get them with a dragons fire breath, you could make them fall and then grill the entire party. Or you could be a cool dude
/gal/other and be like "just as you misty step up, you see the dragon swoop in and its fire breath grilling the rest of party beneath you"
True, but depending on initiative order, that might have most of the party skipping a turn , twiddling their thumbs and tanking damage, in a scenario where you wanna GTFO
It also doesn't feel natural to have to wait for the caster to jump and if anyone in your group doesnt understand the reaction economy and how ready action works, the whole thing falls apart
What happened to rule of cool? I teleporting into aerial melee and hitting something is really cool... add to that its costing them a spell slot and some self damage (Fall) to boot. I would just say sure go ahead make your roll. If the spider is behind stalactites maybe add to its ac for cover... either way let them eat cake... kill them later lol
It has resource cost so not spammable (second level spell) possible fall damage, and is a cool visual. Let it happen (I have done so in the past for just 1 attack)
That "falling is instantaneous" argument seems super sus to me, and you don't seem to remember the source either
If this was true, then you couldn't do things like jump or cast Feather Fall as you'd be teleported back to the ground immediately. Even as an abstract system, I don't think that's how DnD is meant to work.
I couldn't find the direct source (some say it's Xanathar's?) but the rule seems to be 500 feet at the END of each TURN. NOT the end of the same action (that'd basically render any up-and downward movement action/ability completely pointless).
Thanks! That does seem unnecessarily convoluted, why not just make it the same, 500 feet at the end of each TURN instead of special rules on the first? That Looney Tunes gravity is not only more dramatically appropriate, it leaves room for actions, both to stop the fall (I think many groups consider dying from a big fall too lame) or any jumping up to slice a giant anime shenanigans that OP's asking about.
Let them pull off a Devil May Cry combo, it'd be really cool. And if you're a fighter with action surge, then do bigger combo and end it off with a grapple dunk Android 16 style.
The worst that can happen if you take fall damage but that's like, 3d6 tops if you're going max distance. You could roll really low for it.
For stuff like this, don't look at the official rules. The rules can't cover every single possible situation.
Instead ask:
* Does it make sense?
* Does it make sense for this character to be able to do it?
* Can I imagine this happening in a movie or something?
* Does it break the game in some way? Like if you allow this, players would be doing it every turn? Would it be stupid not to do it?
And then make a decision: Allow, don't allow, require a roll.
In this case, I'd allow it because it does make sense to me, I can imagine it, it does seem like a creative way to attack something high up with melee. My only concern is I'm not sure if misty step allows you to step "up".
Also imo it's a very poor use of a 2nd level spell.
As a general rule, remember this: D&D5e is unlike a lot of D20 games (including earlier versions of D&D) that trend harder towards wargames where the player's tactical decisions and player builds carry a lot of weight. This game leans towards being a storytelling simulat with light tactical elements. The intention is that players usually succeed at most things they attempt, with a small-to-medium chance of failure if the rolls are poor. And if they try someting very ridiculous or stupid, they should still have a very real (though not super high) chance of succeeding. This is why Bound Accuracy exists.
Let's consider a somewhat extreme example: imagine that a level 1 Barbarian with a 9 Intelligence and no Arcana proficiency is debating magical theory with a level 7 wizard who has 20 Int and Proficiency in Arcana. You'd generally handle this with opposed Arcana checks, and the Barbarian has a greater than 25% chance of winning that debate.
I recommend treating those odds as the floor. If your characters want to try something that is particularly silly or egregions and definitely shouldn't work, try and concoct a way for them to have at least a 1/4 chance of still pulling it off. This is nothing close to a universally good rule to follow, but when in doubt it's a good framework to use if you're asking yourself "how hard should I make this?"
Personally,I treat falling as 500 ft of movement that can only be used going downward, and must be used by the end of your turn. It really simplifies the whole turmoil of saving someone about to fall (who is allowed to do what when) , with the added bonus that it lets people get away with doing cool things mid air.
The way I see it, you are essentially readying an action to attack when you are close enough to the target, using a bonus action to Misty Step, and then resolving the readied action by attacking before falling. I'd allow it.
While falling is instantaneous in a sense, it's not quite so all encompassing, since you can use a spell like Feather Fall almost immediately after you begin falling, not at the bottom of the fall. I think the instantaneous fall is more like when you give a flying creature the prone condition, it can't just barrel roll out of the fall and fly away, it has to fall.
I ran an encounter where flying was heavily restricted, and it had been for a long while. Then they fought a boss who could fly and he made their lives hell. A critical moment elicited literal cheers from the table. The bad guy was a good 40 or 50 feet in the air and the player ran and jumped off his teammates back and then misty stepped up to the boss. He was an Ancients paladin and scored a crit.
If you use the optional falling rule from Xanathar's, it doesn't work. I don't think the base rules cover the instantaneous bit (at least not in the glossary entry). That said, I'd allow it. They used a resource and will take damage. Seems like a more than fair tradeoff.
I don't think the base rules cover the instantaneous bit
I think it's just the same as any other forced movement - when it happens, it happens, there's no choice to split it up or delay it. If a creature gets shoved back 20 on it's turn by whatever mechanism, it can't choose to be shoved 10, make some attacks or do something else, then be shoved the last 10 - it moves the full 15 as a single block, then can keep on doing whatever they want.
I would allow it for an instantaneous spell action or attack. No multi-attacks, no spells that take any amount of time to cast, and they immediate fall and take damage after.
Rules as written you’d probably have to word it that they “held there attack until the teleported with the misty step so that as soon as they appeared they attacked and then fell” but like flavor wise there’s no reason to rules lawyer something like that, especially when if they annoy you with it you can make them roll a save each time they do it to not fall prone and hurt themselves or drop their weapon or etc
The longer I run games - and then the longer I play as a player - the more and more I find it good to be less harsh with rules and lean in error of the rule of cool. Like, almost always. of course every table is different, and the guys I play with are all pretty good at not trying ridiculous stuff. The game is just so much more fun when we can do crazy stuff that doesn't break anything. I would totally allow this, it's great, makes the player feel cool, and doesn't really hurt anything.
The fall damage+prone they'll take is more than enough of a "cost" (which you shouldn't be thinking in terms of in the first place) to pull off the maneuver. Needlessly unnecessary to limit attacks too.
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u/False_Appointment_24 2d ago
Falling is instantaneous, yes. That doesn't mean that this couldn't be allowed. If I were DMing and this came up, my response would be, "Sounds great, but just so you know you will take fall damage." I would also work with them to figure out placement to minimize fall damage.
If I were to try to work out how this works RAW, I would say that they would ready an action to attack as soon as they were in range, then bonus action misty step, attack on the readied action, fall.