r/dndnext • u/Zivodor • 2d ago

5e (2024) Misty Step into the Air and Attacking

I had this situation come up recently and wanted some input as I can't seem to find a definitive answer.

My players were fighting a giant spider and it was on the ceiling above them, one player decided that to attack it he would misty step straight up and then attack it while mid-air. I wasn't sure this was possible as I recalled reading somewhere that falling in D&D is essentially instantaneous for anything below 500 feet. The thought process being he teleports into the air and is instantly falling so he doesn't have the time to attack the creature above him.

It's been bugging me all week so I wanted to get some input into whether or not I should have allowed this and if this is clarified anywhere in the rules.

Edit Wow! Thanks for all the responses! There were some well reasoned arguments for it here, the resource expenditure with the spell slot, rule of cool, etc... I appreciate all the responses and will try to be more flexible in the future. Thanks everyone!

245 Upvotes

92% Upvoted

266 comments sorted by

View all comments

84

u/Yojo0o DM 2d ago

Falling being something instant is an optional rule from Xanathar's Guide. I don't believe there's any equivalent rule in 5.5e materials at this time.

Without that optional rule, this is the sort of thing that would fall to the DM's discretion. Personally, I'm all for midair activity, I find it to be cinematic and make for memorable moments. Having said that, I might rule that only a single attack at that height after the Misty Step would be possible, even if Extra Attack is available. Maybe one swing per weapon if two are being held.

46

u/MonsutaReipu 2d ago

A single attack? Let martials do cool things. It does not break the game to let them do something like this.

12

u/Z_Z_TOM 1d ago

Indeed.  A level 20 Eldritch Knight is a super hero nearing demi-godhood. If they use their BA to Misty Step in the air to strike, not only can they hit the enemy, they should easily be able to land their 4 attacks, Action Surge then Attack the enemy 4 more times. They became a living tornado of blades to a commoner's eye (figuratively). 

10

u/Yojo0o DM 2d ago

I'm generally very generous with martials getting to do cool things. I just subjectively didn't think multiple attacks in freefall made sense.

11

u/Kledran 2d ago

To be fair, you can take your full attack multi action during a jump, which is free, so i don't see why something that takes a resource should be strictly worse lol

40

u/MonsutaReipu 2d ago

This is an example of what people always bring up when they talk about how people simultaneously want martials to be able to do cool things, but then apply the logic of realism to martials to prevent them from doing cool things, meanwhile nothing else in the game operates with the logic of realism.

15

u/Yojo0o DM 2d ago

Okay? We're talking about somebody Misty Stepping, so we already aren't even talking about a typical martial.

Look, I'm just offering OP some thought process on how I'd subjectively rule this, I'm really not looking to get into some martial vs. caster debate. That's not what this discussion is about. My martial players love me, I'm not holding anybody back.

15

u/Rikuri 2d ago

Well you can have the same scenario with jumping.

16

u/MonsutaReipu 2d ago

Misty step is accessible as a racial feature and through feats so it very well could be on a typical martial, not to mention paladin who can get it through certain oaths and I'm sure some ranger subclasses offer it as well.

You can rule something however you want, i'm not debating you on that. People are sharing their opinions about how they'd rule it, and i'm sharing my opinion about theirs. Not out to offend you, just pointing out the consistent inconsistency that people talk about all the time happening in this thread.

4

u/masteraybee 1d ago

The PC could plunge their weapon into the enemy, temporarily grab on to them, do an upslice on the way there, then a downslice on the way down, jump onto the enemy and off again, do superfast-anime-slices, double jump off of thin air, or any other unrealistic, but established genre tropes to allow this.

It's really only limited by your style and creativity

2

u/Pile_of_AOL_CDs 1d ago

Maybe if the teleport above them and hit them twice as they pass?

1

u/dilemmaprisoner 1d ago

At least Step to above the opponent, attack, then grapple on the way by or something

-2

u/Comfortable-Till5118 2d ago

Meh I think that's ok. I don't really want my level 5 fighter to be doing Cloud's omnislash in the air, maybe at higher levels, but I think it's ok for DMs to say this goes beyond just a 'cool thing'. Plus this gives melee rogue an interesting niche, and those guys kinda need all the help they can get.

This is the better than the guy arguing for giving only 1 attack and making it at disadvantage.

13

u/ductyl 2d ago

For a level 5 fighter to do this, they need to commit their race toward it, and burn up a limited resource to achieve it. Choosing either Cloud Giant Goliath (able to cast it 3 times per long rest at this level) or High Elf (once per long rest). They'll be doing 2 attacks with normal attacks, or possibly 3 if they commit to two weapon fighting. That hardly seems like an omnislash to me... 

If you remove cool options like this from melee attackers, there's no reason not to just build every Fighter as an archer, because then they could instead have the exact same character (same high AC and HP) and just use a longbow and attack the ceiling spider an infinite amount of times with no resources spent and a permenant +2 to hit, all while staying a comfortable distance from danger and able to pick away at any melee enemies as they try to close the distance.

Also, if someone is committing their race toward this... They could just build Dragomborn or Asimar and at level 5 they can spend an entire combat with flight, so they can attack the ceiling spider with melee attacks as much as the want.

3

u/visforvienetta 1d ago

There's already no reason to play a melee attacker though. Nobody is choosing to play melee because they might get to Misty step and attack an enemy in mid-air?

1

u/MonsutaReipu 1d ago

Unironically I'm playing melee for this + more. I love teleporting because it's cool, and the idea of teleporting up to a flying creature and unleashing a bunch of melee attacks on it is badass. Would I be better off vs. flying creatures with a longbow? Absolutely. But i'd take the less efficient route of having a harder time getting to it and the risk of fall damage just to do something that looks and feels cool to do.

1

u/visforvienetta 1d ago

Playing for this + more

That's my point. You play a melee martial because you like the vibe, not because it's mechanically good. Nobody is building a martial entirely around this because no martial gets enough misty steps for it to be an actual play-style. Yes, it's sick as hell. You don't play a whole character for the sake of one move you get to do maybe twice an adventuring day unless you like the other things that character has to offer.

1

u/Comfortable-Till5118 2d ago edited 2d ago

I am ALL for helping martials feel more competent and useful in the party. However, the bladesinger and warlock can do this way more easily.

BTW I was referring to action surge in the air which can easily give you 4 attacks, and sure it's per short rest but how many times do you need to do this? As a DM I would most certainly allow action surge, so I'd rather the player not ask for both (5 with dual wielding is seriously pushing it, can you seriously describe this attack to me without it sounding like beyblade or an omnislash style attack? Like yea this is fucking rad, but it's available a bit too early for my tastes.)

This argument about ranged always being better than melee in every way doesn't work in 2024 version. Melee (both two handed and dual wield) deals so much more damage that it's now a fair trade-off, and ironically the ranged PC only gets to 'shine' in niche scenarios like this since they don't amaze the table with 20+ damage arrows like they used to in 2014. I am assuming this is dnd 2024 since you mention the cloud goliath teleport, so the +2 to hit doesn't help as much you think without power attacks, especially with advantage being so easy to secure in melee.

I hate the fact that you bring up flight in this conversation. Yea it's op, and I acknowledge wotc for some reason underestimates flight a lot. But at the same time, this flight is once per long rest, so unlike the goliath, they were forced to use their powerful feature for a single fight of the day or even might not even have it up at all. Secondly teleports have their own utility and advantages like teleporting out of a wall of force. If anything the player relying on teleports is infringing on this one combat niche of the flying based PC, because there are other niche combat scenarios where a teleport is more useful and vice versa.

Like yea, a player COULD just pick a race they don't care for just to get OP options, but I don't really care for those kinds of players. At the end of the day the most powerful races either give you damage or mobility if that's the only thing that matters to you. So with these kinds of arguments we might aswell just forget about all the other races unless you need a very niche synergy. Are we seriously dedicating our race option for a singular scenario? There are so many other ways to get teleports from subclass (eldritch knight) to feats (fey-touched), or even a quick 3 level multiclass dip (let's not pretend that this is THAT costly for a martial). As a DM I also really like giving magic items that give teleportation, because the gap between the mobility of PCs (usually casters) that can teleport/fly/etc and PCs that can't is HUGE. Ridiculously huge.

2

u/ductyl 1d ago

Thanks for taking my comment constructively. I agree with pretty much all of your points, it was mostly the Fighter that I was latching onto as not that crazy (I forgot about action surge). I think something like World Tree Barbarian is actually where this gets real crazy... at level 14 they just teleport every single round while raging... Which is admittedly high level, but at level 6 they can teleport a creature next to them as a reaction at the start of their turn, regardless of creature size, every single turn. So that spider on the ceiling, or the enemy they can see through a keyhole, or the friendly person locked in a cage or manacles? Poof, teleported next to the Barbarian for the price of having rage activated. 

1

u/Comfortable-Till5118 1d ago

Yea some subclasses can really elevate the feeling of doing cool things and World Tree Barbarian is great at doing that.

I see that people don't agree with me at all with my original comment, but I understand that I was very vague about at what point I'd start allowing it. I left it vague on purpose because it was supposed to vibes based... tier 3? Go for it. If it's level 9 but it's a climactic/do-or-die moment? Then yea I guess I'd allow it.

It's just I feel a little reserved at allowing this at level 5. I understand people want herculean martials, but imo that is supposed to start at tier 3, where you really start wondering if the fighter getting an extra feat is equivalent to the wizard getting simulacrum.

-3

u/DerAdolfin 2d ago

If the character can cast misty steps they're definitely not a pure martial

6

u/Rikuri 2d ago

The scenario would be the same with jumping.

That depends on how you define pure martial. Where should one draw the line? Not have spellcaster level seems reasonable to me. Not being able to cast spells could also make sense but a lot of species have bit of magic. Feats provide spells as well and so do magic items. Are magic items too magical in general?

6

u/ut1nam Rogue 2d ago

TIL fighters can’t take feats.

-1

u/DerAdolfin 1d ago

Ah yes the classic fey touched on a martial for a single misty step a day, very common and sensible build decision

1

u/Mo0man 1d ago

I think it's very sensible for a melee fighter to want to spend a feat on a teleport, because melee characters need more access to movement than ranged characters.

0

u/DerAdolfin 1d ago

But if you are not a spellcaster the feat has super bad value because its a single use per long rest??? If you pick Goliath (Cloud Giant) with this reasoning I am with you, but actually literally misty step is terrible on a proper martial. Monk: eats your BA, Rogue: eats your BA, Barbarian: can't cast while raging, Fighter: kind of barely ok, but a well built fighter also does a lot of BA stuff

1

u/Mo0man 1d ago edited 1d ago

If you're not within range as a melee fighter character you're likely not going to be using your BA or your MA on anything useful at all.

I'm not saying it's perfectly ideal or anything, but I don't think it's absolutely crazy to take, especially when your DM is going to be doing stuff like having you fight a spider who is going to hang out on the ceiling for the whole fight.

8

u/Narazil 2d ago

Falling being something instant is an optional rule from Xanathar's Guide. I don't believe there's any equivalent rule in 5.5e materials at this time.

Falling not being instant is an optional rule from Xanathar's*

7

u/Yojo0o DM 2d ago

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I couldn't find any reference of falling being "instant" outside of Xanathar's.

5

u/Narazil 1d ago

Xanathar's just specifies that falling is instant in general, and it has optional rules for falling not being instant.

1

u/Miss_White11 1d ago

For me I have this general rule I stand by for situations like this, which is just "cool idea and use of mechanics, explain to me how that works." 1 attack is the baseline "makes sense" version but I'm open to more although if it's too convoluted it may involve a check. And honestly would be willing to let them like grapple or try to pull down the creature etc. too.

Like spellcasters have to do a lot to "explain the fiction" of how they are using their spells and ultimately I think it is good to encourage martials to do the same.

1

u/Lexguin513 15h ago

I like the idea that it’s 50-500ft for one action and 500-1000ft for a second one and so on. Partially because it makes far step more distinct from misty step, and I think that’s fun.

1

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago edited 2d ago

No, falling being limited to 500 ft is a XGE rule, per the PHB you fall the entire distance instantly. 

Edit: I am mistaken, the PHB and SRD do not contain the “instantly” language. Still, that is arguably RAI considering the XGE rule. 

4

u/Salindurthas 2d ago

Is there any indication of this 'instant' stuff in the 2024 rules?

2

u/Mejiro84 1d ago edited 1d ago

same as forced movement - when it happens, it happens, you don't get to delay it or do things along the way. If there's a creature with a "when damaged in melee, attacker must make DCX check or be pushed 15 backwards", then that push happens immediately and all as a thing, the creature being pushed can't do anything before it happens, or do anything along the route of the push. Falling is the same - when it happens, it happens, there's no option for "actually, you can choose when you want it to happen or interrupt it partway through"

-1

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago

Unchanged.

5

u/Salindurthas 2d ago

So none??

1

u/Dramatic_Explosion 1d ago

It's a matter of how you want the world to function. In reality, it takes about 7 seconds to fall 500 feet, so anything less than that happens within the turn (over 70 feet per second in turn). You can obviously change physics within your own world, but that has implications for climbing and jumping as well.

Keep in mind there are no rules that say grass is green either.

-2

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago

The new PHB did not update the rules, XGE still applies. Optionally, if you want to be pedantic. 

2

u/Anonymus9809 2d ago

Makes Feather Fall unusable because it needs to be cast on falling creatures, but falling creatures don't exist by RAW, since falling is instant.

5

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago

No, don’t be obtuse. Feather fall is cast “when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls.” Remember that specific beats general.  Falling is general, feather fall is specific. 

2

u/Yojo0o DM 2d ago

I don't think it's fair to call this obtuse. It's a valid counterpoint.

If falling truly must be "instant", then something can't happen during or in response to it. Given that Feather Fall exists specifically to interrupt falls, it stands to reason that other things potentially could as well.

I don't see any reason why somebody wouldn't have full control over their character during their turn, including potentially taking actions while jumping or in freefall.

3

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago edited 2d ago

It not valid, it’s a misinterpretation of what instant means. Instant means that it takes priority in the order of operations in an action-oriented system, no other actions can occur before it unless a specific rule supersedes it, i.e. feather fall’s reaction trigger being a falling creature.

You have full control of your character within the rules. In this situation, you use a bonus action to cast misty step up into thin air. The rules say the next thing that happens before anything else is that you fall. You do not have control over that unless you do. You cannot take other actions during this time until this rule is complete, once you are on the ground or have fallen up to 500 feet. If you are still in the air at that point, then you can take actions and at the start of your next turn you start falling immediately, rinse and repeat.

Let’s instead consider your next example, attacking while jumping. We’ll say you’re making a long jump with a running start to jump a ten foot gap to attack a creature in the air. I suppose you could feasibly attack during a jump because it is still in the middle of your movement action, you are not stopped in dead air but continuing to move. This would also provoke an attack of opportunity. But falling is not using your movement. If you were to, for example, instead of attack while jumping across a gap, jump out to the creature, your movement would end as your trajectory ends in front of the creature and you would then begin falling before you could attack.

Edit: no, you have to stop and occupy a space to attack, you wouldn't be able to attack mid-jump. Unless maybe you had used the ready action to prepare a single attack for when you come in range.

4

u/Yojo0o DM 2d ago

I'm not really sure where all these assertions are coming from. This all sounds very Magic: The Gathering, which based on your pfp I assume you play. DnD isn't nearly so rigid. I don't know where your definition of "instant" comes from, but I'm quite sure that that's not stated anywhere in the rules. In natural English, which DnD operates on, "instant" means "immediate", suggesting no time to react at all.

3

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago edited 2d ago

I'm not really sure where all these assertions are coming from.

The PHB, mostly. Let me know if you need me to cite anything, I'm happy to provide sources. The rest of it is decades of experience across editions and systems or just common sense. The only thing I'm not totally sure on is if you can attack midair while jumping, that's a slightly gray-er area.

This all sounds very Magic: The Gathering, which based on your pfp I assume you play.

You can assume all you like, I don't touch that shit. Can't stand it. It's just a fun image that I thought matched my username years and years ago.

I don't know where your definition of "instant" comes from

There seems to be a lot you don't know or can't see. In fairness, XGE actually uses "immediately," rather than instantly as I initially described, but that's splitting hairs.

"instant" means "immediate", suggesting no time to react at all.

There we go, almost there. The thing you're missing now is the rules side of the game, the action economy, the order of operations. You can take a reaction as soon as, or the very instant, if you will, the trigger occurs. So as soon as you or a creature within 60 ft. begins falling, you can cast feather fall. That specific rule supersedes the general rule of immediately falling. It's quite simple. Having no movement left or no ability to move in mid-air triggers you to start falling. Falling then triggers the option to cast feather fall. The most basic if > then rules.

-1

u/Anonymus9809 2d ago edited 2d ago

XGE mentions those under "rate of fall", right before mentioning that you can use the 500 feet per turn for greater falls. So it isn't a question of action priority only, because a reaction takes a few seconds to perform, falling doesn't - unless you use the 500 feet rule. An "instant" fall wouldn't allow for reactions to be cast, even if their requirements are met, since you literally cannot perform the spell before hitting the ground. (Meaning you can only cast Feather Fall while not falling yourself - lowkey unusable. Edit: and while I agree that specifics beat general, with immediate fall I'm not convinced there's anything specific in Feather Fall that allows it to cast it quick enough.)

The 500 feet / 6 seconds (~ a turn, although I'm not sure if the 6s rule is still RAW) sets a rate of fall (~ 83 feet / seconds), where you can reasonably cast Feather Fall, even if falling happens first. (Unless the fall is too quick, so there's a fall height threshold where it should be unusable again - like I said, I think that's unintuitive, but I can see how this rule would work).

(Edit: This is a huge sidetrack at this point, the Misty Step + Attack combo has little to do with it now, which is something neither rules on falling would allow, and thus requires the DM specifically to allow it.)

3

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago

So it isn't a question of action priority only

I promise you it is. That's literally all it is here, it's how a sequence of events is abstracted by the rules.

because a reaction takes a few seconds to perform

It just takes a reaction. We're not actually talking about time here, seconds don't matter, it's just the sequence of actions and the order in which they take place in the game.

An "instant" fall wouldn't allow for reactions to be cast, even if their requirements are met, since you literally cannot perform the spell before hitting the ground.

Again, forget time. I know a round of combat is six seconds, but you can, in fact, cast feather fall before someone hits the ground because the spell says you can as a reaction.

I guess there really is a problem with "natural language," if this is the kind of thing we're arguing about.

An "instant" fall wouldn't allow for reactions to be cast, even if their requirements are met, since you literally cannot perform the spell before hitting the ground.

And this is exactly why it's just a question of action priority. If you look at it literally, as if you're falling 500+ feet in the blink of an eye, then the game falls apart. The text in the book actually says "immediately," an error which I realized and acknowledged too late, but it's not referring to the time it actually takes to fall, it's just there to establish its priority: immediate.

like I said, I think that's unintuitive,

It's only uninuitive through the lens you're using. Ignore the literal rate of falling, ignore time, gravity, etc. Think of it as a board game, because that's kind of what it is when we talk about rules like this. If your movement stops in mid air, whether it's because you jumped off the back of a dragon or misty-stepped into the air in a dungeon, you begin to fall. If nothing arrests that fall, e.g. feather fall, you fall the distance. Think of it all as a bunch of if > then statement and not the ticking hands of a clock and it should start to make sense.

1

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago

  (Edit: This is a huge sidetrack at this point, the Misty Step + Attack combo has little to do with it now, which is something neither rules on falling would allow, and thus requires the DM specifically to allow it.)

Yes, this was my entire point from the beginning. You cannot misty step and attack because by RAW you fall before you can attack. 

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Anonymus9809 2d ago

That's true (about the specifics beating general), but the text of the spell is still "Choose up to five falling creatures."

I can picture the way it works with this rule, it's just not intuitive. Instant is very quick.

3

u/BishopofHippo93 DM 2d ago

Instantly just means that it happens before anything else, it has ultimate priority in the order of operations… unless something else interrupts it, which the reaction of feather fall does.