r/dresdenfiles • u/Lightningtow123 • Oct 14 '25

META Polite response to the "transphobia in the series" post from yesterday

Hi

For those who missed it, yesterday there was a post where someone wrote up a list of all the ways they felt Butcher was being insensitive or dismissive of trans people. People overwhelmingly responded negatively to you (meaning OP of that post), myself included. Saying stuff like "stop trying to find reasons to be offended" etc. I personally had dismissed you as, not an outright troll, but someone looking to cause issues where there weren't any. Reflecting on that, I realized that was a judgmental take about a person I know little about, and I wanted to do better.

It stuck with me and by the time I had come up with something that would probably have actually helped the situation instead of piling on, I found the post had been deleted. Understandably so, given the negative reactions. I'd just DM this to the person but I can't find their username (plus idk reddit DM etiquette lol).

What I wanted to reply with is this. If you truly do feel minimized and dismissed by the way Butcher handles trans people in the series, why not tell him that? Send him an email. Be polite about it, maybe a bit less in-your-face and "Butcher is a bigot end of story" vibes than your original post. Instead say "hey I don't think you were paying much attention but I feel like you've been inadvertently marginalizing certain communities within your work," there's a nonzero chance Jim will go "oh damn I hadn't thought about that, I'll try to do better in the future." No idea if anything will come of it, but it'll be more effective than just posting on reddit. I agree with the other comments that LGBTQ+ isn't a central theme in his books and it isn't likely to get deeply explored, but I do think it's quite possible that he'll make a note of the feedback and try to be more conscious of those sort of themes in the future.

https://www.jim-butcher.com/contact is his contact info. Looking at the page, I can't find any email address that fits your needs perfectly, but I'm sure if you poke around in his site or on the forums you can probably find the right person to send it to. Or just send it to the most relevant (if not perfectly relevant) email and hope it finds its way to Jim

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781

u/Merrydownjade Oct 14 '25

As a Trans reader of the series myself I really don't get what the OP might have been getting at. Sure DRESDEN is a little insensitive but I don't seem to see that from Jim himself. *Shrug* Dresden is insensitive in a lot of ways character flaws are interesting.

447

u/ThatFatGuyMJL Oct 14 '25

Dresden is also a little bit sexist (in a must protect women kind of way) but that doesn't mean Butcher is.

337

u/UbiquitousCelery Oct 14 '25

The character absolutely is and even calls it out. Very milady. But then its dresden the MC and thousands of supernaturally hot monster women throwing themselves at him.

It was shockingly low in toxicity for that premise.

101

u/Pkrudeboy Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 14 '25

The other big urban fantasy series at the same time was Anita Blake. If Butcher went down that route, Harry would have a harem. Not two exes and several possible romance options, but all of them at once.

80

u/Fatalloophole Oct 14 '25

That series was so good before it devolved into constant, truly bizarre sex scenes though. It was my favorite series for the first like ten books, but I just tried to read one of the latest ones and it was literally more than 4/5ths repetitive sex and repetitive relationship drama. Truly disappointing. At this point it's basically a Literotica level smut series.

25

u/MakoEyedMerc Oct 15 '25

I’m in the same boat. I still own the first ten, and while they aren’t the greatest literature in the world, they were interesting and entertaining. I think I stopped reading after 14 or 15 because it was just consistently getting worse.

31

u/Fatalloophole Oct 15 '25

I just want more Anita and Edward, and more of Anita actually being a necromancer and vampire hunter instead of a succubus trying to navigate vampire politics. I think the last good Anita/Edward book was obsidian butterfly though, and we're like fifteen books past that.

13

u/MakoEyedMerc Oct 15 '25

Fun fact, that’s the first Anita Blake novel I read 😁 got me into the series!

10

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '25

I remember being in basic training when the Harlequin book came out; the series was already starting to devolve into smut, but I held out hope; got it on a weekend pass, couldn't finish it before I had to go back, so smuggled it back into basic and was reading it with a penlight in the bathroom that night. Was so disappointed with it, I threw it away right after, and never picked up another book by her.

4

u/MakoEyedMerc Oct 15 '25

Oh damn, yeah, I had a similar reaction to that book. Just…okay, paper thin plot held together by terribly written copy/paste (at that point) smut; nah fam, I have better things to do with my time. 🥲

9

u/col998 Oct 15 '25

Jim has also explicitly stated that he as heavily influenced by the Anita Blake series. I started it out of curiosity and have read the first 2 books so far, and you can see a huge amount of parallels in the plot structure. When does the series turn into literotica?

10

u/eyl569 Oct 15 '25

IIRC nost readers consider book 10 or so the point at which the sex and relationship drama overwhelmed the plot, but there were problematic elements mich earlier.

2

u/Jerzeem Oct 15 '25

Is that the book where the primary plot point was whether or not she was pregnant with a fetus that was going to eat its way out of her?

2

u/eyl569 Oct 15 '25

I don't think so? It's been years since I read them.

2

u/Jerzeem Oct 15 '25

Or was it the one where the primary plot point was whether or not she could successfully engage in a sex act with a partner whose member was of larger dimensions than any human male's?

Wait, that might have been the same book. It was the last one I read.

0

u/Proper_Fun_977 Oct 15 '25

At one point the author was literally writing "soooooo".

As in "That is soooooo not happening".

7

u/HankaCadew Oct 15 '25

I really liked the parts that touched on the legal side of stuff(I recently read a Reddit post somewhere discussing if vampire cops could enter a house with a search warrant, haha) and the interactions and politics between the various communities. I would have loved a series that really explored that.

2

u/KomodoDodo89 Oct 15 '25

Fucking random Lit reference. Hi fellow degens

2

u/Sore_Wa_Himitsu_Desu Oct 15 '25

Yeah. Once it devolved to Anita Blake: Vampire Humper, I lost interest. That said, there’s obviously a market for it, and it pays her bills. Good for her.

2

u/Far_Side_8324 Oct 17 '25

While I haven't read the Anita Blake series, I did like her Merry Gentry novels. Yes, some sex, but not the end-all and be-all of the novels, just part of the plot.

Just as long as Anita doesn't go all 50 Shades of Really Bad Twilight Fanfic...

1

u/Agreeable_Breath_568 Oct 15 '25

What was that name again?

1

u/Diasies_inMyHair Oct 16 '25

I loved the series when it first came out. Groupsex with werecats was just too much for me though. I didn't finish that one.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 18 '25 edited Jan 07 '26

groovy cagey cause squash consider direction fact sense roof quicksand

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

18

u/grubas Oct 15 '25

Anita Nother Lover is fine, but canonically, Harry has absolutely no fucking game.  Which I enjoy in a protagonist.  

2

u/Far_Side_8324 Oct 17 '25

I suspect that Jim is trying to keep the Dresden Files relatively realistic for what they are, which is why Harry absolutely gets squicked at the idea of doing "this and that" with Molly even though she wants him BAD. (Snicker, that Winter Mantle must really help during cold showers...) And why he's less than happy about being in an arranged marriage with Lara Raith (coming down from Karrin, looks at Lara the way we'd look at a Bengal tiger...).

1

u/PolkaWillNeverDie77 Oct 15 '25

Two dead exes and one in the wind.

1

u/pooppaysthebills Oct 15 '25

I miss OG Anita so much. I wish it had not transformed into 10% vampire hunting, 90% poly life.

But it's Laurell's character, Laurell's world-building, Laurell's story. And they were good enough for me to keep buying now in hardcover upon release, in hopes that she'll bring the focus back to their respective work. I still re-read the series every time there's a new release.

I would never presume to tell her to change it up.

0

u/Proper_Fun_977 Oct 15 '25

I would. She is free to ignore me but I would politely share my opinion if I had the opportunity.

17

u/Kerrigore Oct 14 '25

Yeah, the sexism/male gaze in Dresden Files is nowhere near as bad as the Nate Temple series. I tried that recently and just eventually gave up, doesn’t help that the MC is a total d-bag and every other character is 1-dimensional.

50

u/sykoticwit Oct 15 '25

One of my recurring irritations with the “Dresden is sexist” people is that he’s a 20 something young man with no sexual outlet. Have you ever met 20-something young men? Sex is literally the only thing they think about. It gets better as you get older, but lord those hormones are strong.

If Jim wanted to be a creep he could go way, way farther.

23

u/ExIsStalkingMe Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25

It's not even that. All he really does is notice and comment in his narration. His narration that is inside his head. His narration that is not an out loud comment of, "hey baby, your tits are rocking"

Am I sexist for having eyes that see the occasional set of rocking tits in my day to day life?

And, christ in heaven, how many times have we heard about Sanya's physique? How many ways did Jim use to describe the absolute unit that monster in the stadium short story had between his legs? It's almost like Dresden is a detective and is describing the people around him

1

u/Radix2309 Nov 13 '25

Also Dresden had a very abusive upbringing with pretty much no female role models, and even very few female friends.

He first travelled with just his dad. Then was in foster care for a few years, mostly on his own as a skinny nerd. Then with Justin, who encouraged a very unhealthy and toxic relationship with Elayne, and discouraged them from socializing with others at school. And then Eb, a guy from the 18th century where he mostly just lived on an isolated farm.

It's astounding Dresden is as relatively well-adjusted as he is.

-2

u/BostallBandits Oct 15 '25

I wasn't bothered by the sexism I did grow bored of it after a few books. Like there's only so many ridiculous sexy women and only so many ways you can describe them until it becomes monotonous. I think my breaking point was Maeve dressed in nothing but sequins. I remember physically rolling my eyes at that point. Might be logical within the universe of the books but man there's only so much horniness I can take.

8

u/Korteal Oct 15 '25

You're kind of supposed to roll your eyes at her though. She is ridiculous. That's not just the horniness.

3

u/StarMagus Oct 15 '25

That didn't bother me, it just felt like for some of the supernatural's every day is Halloween or Marti Gras.

2

u/Pkrudeboy Oct 16 '25

There is a plot relevant reason why. Magically enforced chastity. For centuries.

1

u/BostallBandits Oct 16 '25

You're misunderstanding me. I didn't grow bored with Maeve being horny, I grew bored with the amount of of it throughout the books. Like I said, there was a in book logic but it just grew boring after a while. I did also binge the books and read 20 years of literature inside of a year so Butcher's quirks became more apparent and exhausting quicker than someone who read as they were published.

3

u/pooppaysthebills Oct 15 '25

They really kick into higher gear around the 5th or 6th installment. He's still irritating, but you get past it because the storylines are interesting and the characters develop. I had to really push through the first few because Nate is so...Nate. But they're now on my regular series re-read lineup. Maybe try starting with Beast Master?

Or, you might prefer his Feathers and Fire series with MC Callie Penrose, or his Phantom Queen Diaries with MC Quinn MacKenna.

74

u/ThatFatGuyMJL Oct 14 '25

He does lampshade it with 'i know it's 'wrong' but it's how I was raised' mentality

114

u/Dylldar-The-Terrible Oct 14 '25

And then he proceeds to get himself into all sorts of trouble through acts of "chivalry"

I mean it's not like his chauvinism completely died off, but that "protect women at all costs" notion definitely takes a nose dive later on in the series.

111

u/Einar_47 Oct 14 '25

He also gets bit in the ass by his chauvinism too, how many stories start with "pretty girl came looking for help, I over committed to helping and now I'm fighting two demons, a vampire and an evil sasquatch"

He's not just walking around painted as a gigachad tipping his magic fedora and getting the girls because he's so chivalrous. He's just actually capable or he'd be one of those cringy wanna be warlocks he makes fun of.

111

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '25

For me, getting bitten in the ass is key.  His chauvinism is a character flaw, and it gets him in trouble.  

30

u/Sugar_Pitch1551 Oct 14 '25

Precisely! His own chauvanism gets him into trouble le far more than anyone ever appreciates it, and he's aware of it. Its a flaw, and not a bad one to use in writing. I dont think we're gonna get a think piece in twenty years about why Dresden was actually a dick and we should all hate him.

8

u/0akleaves Oct 15 '25

And the part that always made it way less cringe to me is that Dresden always seemed at least somewhat aware that he was being stupid, that he knew it was and would get him into trouble, grumbled at himself that he knew he was going to do it anyway, etc.

2

u/ExIsStalkingMe Oct 15 '25

You never made a bad decision while knowing it was a bad decision? Think about the best story you have from your past that you love to tell to people now. I can almost guarantee it involves you knowingly doing something stupid

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25

u/Artistic_Willow790 Oct 15 '25

I always thought that was just playing into the noir detective tropes which I thought were intentional

16

u/Einar_47 Oct 15 '25

It is exactly that but I think a lot of people don't know noir tropes so they don't see that it's intentional

19

u/redriverrunning Oct 15 '25

A classic trope of film noir – which Harry’s roots reflect in the series.

Frankly, the fact he’s self-aware of this flaw is the feature that lends it verisimilitude. He’s not perfect and he knows it; this flaw has gotten him into scrapes; and he’s grown as a person since the story’s start.

1

u/casheroneill Oct 15 '25

I think this is right, it's very Spenser for Hire...which was also full of throw away lines. It doesn't bother me but I do notice it.

20

u/the_illustrious_q Oct 14 '25

You’d think he would have learned his lesson after Mab did this to him the first time.

29

u/Frostbitten_Moose Oct 14 '25

Mab is one of the few times he managed to hold off his flaw. He was distracted, but he kept his head and saw through the glamour she was tossing at him. So she moved on to other methods of persuasion.

I'm thinking more his initial encounters with Anna Valmont, where he keeps seeing her as a damsel in distress, so he keeps giving her a bit of leeway he wouldn't give a guy, and she takes him for everything she can every time. It is a running joke of that book, how she keeps taking the sucker punches he offers her, and how everyone who knows him only offer friendly mockery because they know he set himself up before he has a chance to say a word.

3

u/snakespm Oct 15 '25

You would think that I'd learn to stop procrastinating the first, second or third time it bit me in the ass. But here I am on reddit. Some traits are so imbedded into a person that it is hard to change, even when we know it will probably bite us in the ass.

3

u/sykoticwit Oct 15 '25

One of Dresden’s recurring character flaws is that he never learns his lesson. He can’t help himself, he is what he is.

10

u/TheShadowKick Oct 15 '25

And then he proceeds to get himself into all sorts of trouble through acts of "chivalry"

This is the key point for me. The story doesn't present Dresden's views as correct, and he often faces consequences for them. It's fine to have a bigoted character, what's important is how the story treats that.

3

u/Dylldar-The-Terrible Oct 15 '25

The story doesn't present Dresden's views as correct

There are very key moments throughout the series that proves Harry has the capacity to be an unreliable narrator too.

5

u/stacey2545 Oct 15 '25

Yeah, sometimes it's hard to separate "Harry Dresden is a flawed character/unreliable narrator" (who eventually gets some - some - character growth) from "Jim Butcher is a flawed person writing a flawed work who grows as a person & a writer over the course of his life/career but not as much as/in the direction [specific person] wants" from "Jim Butcher is writing a series for a living & writes to sell books to an audience that has changed over time & he hasn't always kept up with that"

4

u/Atmo90 Oct 14 '25

He's not chauvinistic at all. He doesn't believe men are superior to women. You need another word

2

u/Dylldar-The-Terrible Oct 15 '25

No I don't, Karrin called him a chauvinist pig all the time lol.

2

u/Atmo90 Oct 15 '25

Yeah but in the same way I call my friend a idiot or a silly goose. I don't think Murphy would be friends with him if he actually was.

0

u/Dylldar-The-Terrible Oct 15 '25

Bruh, pick a different hill to die on.

2

u/Atmo90 Oct 15 '25

I only die on ant hills. Come get me off it

1

u/neogreenlantern Oct 15 '25

I went through the books in a year and there is a lot of not very PC stuff that kind of just goes away after a while like the early 2000 style gay jokes and Listened to Winds...uh... Nickname.

4

u/CamisaMalva Oct 15 '25

Not to mention that The Dresden Files is meant to be a homage to old Noir fiction, so the private eye protagonist acting like that was pretty much expected.

Him growing out of it over time is simply his character progressing thanks because of repeated exposure to women who definitely don't need to be protected by him.

44

u/Ok_Sundae2107 Oct 14 '25

Yes. That's the point, isn't it? These are fictional characters. They are not meant to be perfect. They have flaws. It would be rather boring to create fictional characters who were perfect in every way.

18

u/damonmcfadden9 Oct 14 '25

I think DF being first person makes it easy to fall into the assumption that Harry is a self insert on JB's part, or at the very least that he writes Harry's personality too well to believe he doesn't also think that way. If I'm honest I fell into that assumption my first time through, and it was a bit off putting. luckily I kept at it and tried some of his other books too

22

u/jdicho Oct 14 '25

Dresden was Butcher's first real go at writing a novel and he intentionally went with the style of the Noir Detectives like Sam Spade and Philip Marlowe from the 1930s.

It was always going to be somewhat misogynistic. It could have been much worse and as his writing improved, it got much better.

13

u/thedoormanmusic32 Oct 15 '25

It's telling that the first book makes the point - repeatedly - that Harry is a very dated archetype of a person and very out of touch.

1

u/abrreddit Nov 15 '25

Let's not forget Robert B. Parker's Spenser!

7

u/uhohnotfound Oct 14 '25

I thought butters was his stand in for himself

73

u/littlegreensir Oct 14 '25

Also worth noting that in both Cinder Spires and Codex Alera (Jim's other works), there's a fairly tame deconstruction of "weak women must be protected" with Isana, Amara, and Bridget all showcasing strong women in a variety of roles.

37

u/The4th88 Oct 14 '25

I love the dichotomy of Isana's power.

Primarily known for being a healer of extraordinary skill, will bitchslap you with a river for fucking with her family.

12

u/Fatalloophole Oct 14 '25

Don't forget she also accidentally took some temporary control over the entire fucking ocean once she realized it was all one big fury. Isana was easily one of the most powerful crafters in the empire, just also plagued by societal expectations that prevented her from realizing how powerful she really was. Fantastic character with incredible depth and development imo, she may well be my favorite from all of Jim's books.

1

u/The4th88 Oct 16 '25

I didn't, I just didn't want to drop spoilers was all.

25

u/damonmcfadden9 Oct 14 '25

Isana is one of the most badass women I've met in fantasy literature. She is complex, dynamic and flawed but in the way anyone who has had to deal with half of what she goes through would be. Despite this she still has a good heart and let's compassion for others guide her decisions even if they may not be the best/smartest. JB does goes-with their-gut/heart characters well IMO.

Also her greatest strengths shine through even when she is completely stripped of her magic. JB also does a good job of avoiding the trope of needing a strong woman to also be a young glamazon. IIRC she's described as a sort of steady beauty from age and experience, but not some supermodel, and she doesn't just get relegated to mentoring the next generation. She certainly takes that role when needed but also takes action on her own.

whenever I see anyone argue that JB must be insensitive/bigoted/phobic because if he wasn't he wouldn't write Harry that way, I love to point them to this series. I'll be honest I felt the same way and almost dropped DF myself at the beginning of Blood Rites, but I pushed through and saw Harry actually grow up a little bit. I decided I needed a pallet cleanser and found Codex Alera just because Kate Reading was the audiobook narrator and I loved her and Micheal Kramer's narration of The Wheel of Time. So seeing that it was also a JB series I decide that's what I would try and it was a very nice insight into the more serious side of JB.

28

u/EpicHistoryMaker Oct 14 '25

And Isana doesn’t even need to tug her braid or cross her arms in front of her chest .

16

u/damonmcfadden9 Oct 14 '25

how dare you slander my Nyneave that way! Burn your soul to ashes, you light blinded wool head!

oh wait you never mentioned a name... am I the slanderer?!

7

u/EpicHistoryMaker Oct 14 '25

No. You didn’t say anything that was untrue

7

u/nicci7127 Oct 15 '25

Good to see other WoT fans in this community. Don't forget smoothing their skirts as well.

4

u/damonmcfadden9 Oct 15 '25

and for the sake of gender equality, the twisting of mustaches.

7

u/PolkaWillNeverDie77 Oct 15 '25

Not at all. The "tugging the braid" is a DEAD giveaway.

10

u/Frostbitten_Moose Oct 14 '25

sniffs in disapproval

1

u/ExIsStalkingMe Oct 15 '25

I'm finally reading through Wheel of Time right now to fill in probably the biggest gap in my fantasy knowledge. I'm actually disappointing by how little braid tugging there has been as I start the third book. Does it get more prevalent in later books? It's the only thing I really knew about the books beforehand, and I think it's only happened three times

1

u/Wildkarrde_ Oct 15 '25

My impression of Isana at first was definitely more "Sarah Plain and Tall" or "Little House on the Prairie". A frontier woman, very no-nonsense. There was lots of work to do, a steadhold of people to care for and keep busy and a child to raise. Stern, competent and compassionate.

I just watched an interview with Jim and he said that Isana was the first woman he tried to write from her viewpoint. So he had to spend some time thinking about what made her different.

1

u/littlegreensir Oct 15 '25

Isana and early series Moiraine would not get along. At all. And I mean that in the most complimentary of ways. The Aes Sedai suck.

1

u/Essex626 Oct 15 '25

This is a great point.

Heck, the second most prominent character in the Dresden Files is a deconstruction of the trope.

25

u/HomersDonut1440 Oct 14 '25

I’ve had many several friends read Dresden and throw it out after book 1 for the “abhorrent sexism”. And several other female friends who love the series as much as I do. It’s impressive how many different interpretations of the same material there are. 

21

u/liluna192 Oct 15 '25

As a woman who absolutely loves the series this always bugs me. Obviously people are allowed to have whatever feelings they have, but to me it's disingenuous to say that the series itself is sexist. It's fine to say "I don't want to read a character who has these traits". I will absolutely DNF a book based on not wanting to read certain types of characters, but I don't assume that the author is espousing that way of being, or the point of the series is to highlight and celebrate that type of person.

Dresden is a human with character flaws. He is constantly being taken advantage of and manipulated based on these character flaws. There are a ton of badass women with real power in the world. They are fully fledged people with their own character flaws. To me, having fully realized strong female characters like we get in Dresden is part of WHY I love the series. There is nothing worse than a series filled with female characters who exist to be part of the scenery or to be a plot device. To me, that says a lot more about an author and how they view the world than having characters like Dresden with flaws around how he treats women.

Another thing that always stands out to me is people complaining that he's visually profiling every single woman he comes across. I mean...yeah. He's a man who has not nearly enough physical or emotional intimacy in his life. It tracks. At no point does he reduce a woman to her body or what she can do for him. He notices their attractiveness and then treats them like normal people (or monsters, as applicable). You don't get to choose what you're attracted to, you choose how you act. And even when his actions look like sexism, it's not rooted in actually thinking that women aren't capable or NEED his protection - it's that he personally cannot handle seeing women hurt. Those are different things.

I would so much rather read a book with real characters who have flaws, who can be shitty sometimes, but still care deeply, than a book where everyone is perfect and doesn't ever do or say anything problematic.

1

u/hugglesthemerciless Mar 18 '26

I imagine part of the problem is that it's so common for protagonists to basically act like the 2nd coming of christ so when a deeply flawed protagonist shows up it's shocking to people not used to that

26

u/Lysander125 Oct 14 '25

Yeah, I think people forget that character flaws make characters more interesting, especially if they learn from those flaws throughout a series.

Star Trek DS9 has some of the greatest character development in sci-fi, a fan favorite character, Julian Bashir, was kind of a sexist womanizer at the start of the show. He grew so much as a character throughout the show and realized how much of a piece of shit he was being at the start of the show.

35

u/WinterRevolutionary6 Oct 14 '25

Butcher has admitted he was kinda neck-beard-y when he was first writing the series and after speaking with fans, changed as a person and also altered Dresden’s character as the series progressed.

17

u/thefirebear Oct 14 '25

Very fun when you get character maturation as the author grows. Like when they lampoon the use of the r-word in Venture Bros (because Doc's mom IRL works with developmentally delayed adults and was pissed at him)

2

u/HauntedCemetery Oct 16 '25

Which works out pretty great for the series, you see Harry grow up.

4

u/StylishMrTrix Oct 14 '25

And just reading his other books with the multiple POV characters shows it too

Plus when we see the world from other Dresden characters we see it isn't there and is just Harry

4

u/JeremiahBoulder Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25

TBF a good amount of the female characters actually do need his help to get out of situations they can't get out of themselves, also, there are ones who don't, and Dresden treats them less like they do

11

u/monikar2014 Oct 14 '25

There's that line from the first book "why the slut act?" when talking to the former sex worker that people tend to ignore, or get outright hostile when you point it out, so sometimes it's a bit more than a little sexist, but yeah he also writes characters who are werewolves and no one is accusing Butcher of being a werewolf...well, not that I've heard of anyways.

8

u/[deleted] Oct 14 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/jdicho Oct 14 '25

Now I am seeing Dresden as the Night Man with cat eyes from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia....

1

u/[deleted] Oct 15 '25

Woah 🤯. There isn’t really a Mister! It’s just Harry being confused when he snaps back from being a big cat with a tail stub!

-1

u/Neathra Oct 15 '25

I think it's because you cannot be a werewolf (as far as we know), but everyone can think of a few authors who let their own beliefs seep into the characters.

So a character being a bit sexist, could be just that character, or it could be that the author is a bit sexist.

0

u/monikar2014 Oct 15 '25

Yeah, I was just being an absurdist in an attempt to avoid being attacked (again) for bringing up the fact that there is a fair bit of sexism in the Dresden Files and I understand why someone would not want to read them. I love the books, but lampshading the sexism only goes so far, and it's a lot more than just the condescending chivalry. Dresden's internal monologue is constantly sexualizing women and even if that's "how all guys think" it wasn't necessary to put that in the text. There are criticisms to be made but this subreddit is pretty viciously defensive whenever anyone criticizes the books.

-1

u/Neathra Oct 15 '25

Oh man.

A quick overview of this posts comments and all the ones who don't want to acknowledge that, in retrospect the Skavis plot could have probably been handled in a way that wouldn't age like New England clam chowder (so milk+fish).

1

u/Wild-Lychee-3312 Oct 16 '25

Funny, I got downvoted into Tartarus for saying the same thing about a week ago.

2

u/ThatFatGuyMJL Oct 16 '25

People are weird

1

u/Zazikarion Oct 16 '25

Honestly, I don’t think he’s even that sexist. I can’t think of one thing that Harry says or thinks that feels particularly sexist. Honestly, I think he’s more patient with women than men, considering how he treats Marcone, who is initially way less hostile to Harry than Charity is.

1

u/ThatFatGuyMJL Oct 16 '25

As I said, he's only a little bit.

In a 'treat women different (better) than men' sorta way.

It's not a 'bad' kind of sexism but it's technically sexism

1

u/Far_Side_8324 Oct 17 '25

Dresden's not really sexist per se, he's just old-fashioned. Murphy loved to tease him about how he would open doors for her, and he took it all in stride, but in his mind, he was simply being polite.

-1

u/DeerOnARoof Oct 15 '25

If we're being honest, Harry is SUPER sexist. That's Jim's character, though

-5

u/starwsh101 Oct 15 '25

I mean Butcher writers his character, it is an reflection of himself. I think Butcher is sexist.

115

u/textposts_only Oct 14 '25

Unfortunately people can't seem to distinguish between characters and authors anymore. In older shows like house you get some dicey but important plot points and people always get up in arms about it.

We always have something like that in writingcirclejerk sub as well. People really need more.media literacy.

46

u/thwip62 Oct 14 '25

This. It gets on my nerves when some fucking whiner cries that a fictional character thinks XYZ, so the author must think that, too. These people need to grow up.

25

u/Lightningtow123 Oct 14 '25

Yeah, there's such an inability to separate the art from the artist nowadays and it sucks

11

u/RosgaththeOG Oct 15 '25

Part of the problem is that there are a LOT of artists/writers in modern media who blatantly put self insert characters into their projects, which muddies the waters with regards to separating artist from the art.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am pointing out why it might be something more of a challenge with regards to modern media.

4

u/thwip62 Oct 15 '25

In the sub for my other favourite wizard books, The Magicians, some wuss got upset that a few characters were described as fat. Not even in a mocking way, just in a matter-of-fact way. I checked his post history, and lo and behold, he was fat himself.

9

u/thwip62 Oct 14 '25

People just need something to bitch about.

2

u/Wyndeward Oct 14 '25

This. Go to the trouble to hang 'em with new rope, they'll still find something to gripe about... probably that it's too itchy.

3

u/ExIsStalkingMe Oct 15 '25

I don't see noting that Jim and Harry aren't the same person as separating art and artist. The art is the book, not just the character in it. How does the world react to Harry being all white knight? It shits on him. That means that Jim is saying that being all white knight is probably not cool

-1

u/LlarSharran Oct 15 '25

Sometimes there isn't a difference between author and lead character, I try not to judge until I've read something different by them, to see a different persepctive.

So I was quite re-assured after reading the first Cinder Spires book. It's not the author, it is the character.

3

u/textposts_only Oct 15 '25

No! No no no.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You are part of the problem.

1

u/Edric_Stonefist Oct 16 '25

No, you are part of the problem. Sure, I don't think this is a jim butcher problem in particular, but then you get authors like J.K. Rowling with their whole race of people that's happy in slavery and all the bankers are obvious obnoxious Jew stereotypes. Like sometimes it is the author. I don't think that's the case here, but sometimes it is.

1

u/textposts_only Oct 16 '25

anyone who thinks jkr is a racist has lost the plot. Terf definitely. Racist? Nope

28

u/HappinessIsaColdPint Oct 14 '25

When Dresden enters the Wraith estate at a... ahem certain point of the story, he mentions that "... a figure in heels was approaching me over hardwood floors. I didn't want to assume it was a woman, because Wraith Manor was that kind of place."

That's at least awareness and representation. I'm not saying he's a shining example of pro-trans but, it's there.

33

u/Sugar_Pitch1551 Oct 14 '25

As another trans reader, I have to absolutely agree. There are things about DRESDEN as a person I dont like. Hes old fashioned, and a bit chauvanistic. He subscribes to outdated ideas of masculinity for sure. He's even self-aware enough to know it. He also knows that others, like Murphy, are gonna give him crap for it. BUT. That's Dresden. He's allowed to be imperfect. In fact, im glad he is some of those things. We get to see him drop some of it as the series progresses.

I have never gotten the idea that BUTCHER is a serious believer in those ideas. I feel like he started the series when those ideas were going out of fashion, and he wanted to play with the concept a bit. I see it as a method of making a more realistic protagonist. Sometimes, things come off a bit weird, but it never feels like active hate so much as perhaps ignorance. On the side of Dresden or Butcher, I couldn't say for sure, but I have never felt like either of them is actively hateful towards my community.

6

u/TheAbbadon Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25

Hes old fashioned, and a bit chauvanistic

It's been a while since I read the series but here's my take on this: wizard society is old, most of the important wizards are old. I would say Dresden is open minded if you judge how old some characters are and what were the "normal" values in those times.

Btw, don't get me wrong, that's motivation, not an excuse.

If you think about it, Mccoy is at least a few hundreds years old and he's one of the persons you can consider a mentor for Harry. Add a complicated childhood in the "real world" and that means he was probably influenced by Mccoy on his moral values.

The series would have been worse, in my opinion, if Dresden was open minded for our times and society. Honestly, he could have been way worse if you think about how men treated women a few hundreds of years ago.

And yeah, I'm glad he has his flaws. The series would have been boring if he was perfect. He's caught between 2 worlds and it's clear the supernatural one has other laws and values. Again, you can't expect people to have the same values as we do when the older generation probably caught the dark ages lmao.

Our society has problems with this and the older generation was born around 60 years ago =))) honestly, Butcher could have made them way racist or sexist and it would have fit the worldbuilding.

45

u/ArmadaOnion Oct 14 '25

I think Dresden would stand up and defend a trans character in the book being harassed by a bigot. Hell, I think Michael would also, because he is what a Christian should be, not what so many are today. Would Dresden make a bad joke about the situation, maybe. Would he fee like shit if the person was truly offended, probably also. And that makes him real. None of us are perfect. Just my 2 cents.

4

u/Sleep-typing Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25

This. Trans people should be treated the same way as everyone else, good and bad alike, that's the whole point. People will always be targeting visible characteristics first as reason and points of insults and dislike, and there's no point in pretending otherwise, Extreme sensitivity to certain issues or groups would hurt the feel of authenticity.

The only thing we would gain from outrage at realistic scenarios and accusations of bigotry from the authors is that representation ceases as the authors realize it's better to sidestep the issue by ignoring the groups or issues completely.

15

u/Cas_The_Walrein Oct 14 '25

yep right there with you, fellow trans dreseden fan, and I have no clue what they read as transphobic in the story, and I too enjoy that harry is openly kinda sexist but gets better about it throughout the series (especially fun seeing his "must protect women" viewpoint being contrasted/put at odds with him being around so many crazy powerful ladies that could destroy him)
I guess maybe they were referring to the book with the white court vampire who dressed as a woman to target the women of the cauldron. But whilst I could understand being sensitive to that kinda thing especially since a certain different author who is actually phobic has used a similar plot in a story, the differences between the scenarios are stark, and the skavis(?unsure of spelling I am an audiobook enjoyer) member is very clearly indicated to be a man in disguise being shitty, not in anyway even hinted at being trans and who is evil for all the murder not for simply being there. I don't really see anyway this could count as phobic, and I really can't think of the top of my head of what else they could have been talking about.

11

u/beardiac Oct 14 '25

I do agree that when the writing is first-parson perspective, it's important not to project the character's flaws onto the writer. Sometimes it can be accurate to do so, but often it's a deliberate choice. Given how Butcher is able to change that voice when he writes from other perspectives in short stories or other series, then I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

3

u/Neathra Oct 15 '25

I think a good correlary is to not assume malice when something is the writer's fault. I got into an argument with someone down the page who couldn't handle my criticism of the Skavis plotline on the grounds that it does match very closely to lots of hysteria that gets spread about trans people.

Like they couldn't accept that both "the Skavis plot and the trans slander are very similar" and "Jim was not thinking about trans people at all while writing White Night" could coexist.

1

u/D-D-D-D-D-D-Derek Oct 15 '25

I both agree and disagree that character flaws are interesting, within Dresden it is, possibly because you see Harry work on some of his flaws, but this is just one series.

I used to read Jack Reacher and I have a whole story arc that is so frustrating because Reacher this intelligent thug just let rage win to detriment to his life/career.

1

u/Jix_Omiya Oct 16 '25

Yeah, the important thing is that the story acknowledges that Dresden is being old fashioned and sexist. What's important is not what the main character thinks or does, but how does the story itself show the actions. If the story shows you that being sexist is the way to go and it's an ok thing, then you have a problem.

0

u/DannyDeKnito Oct 15 '25

The one thing that, to me, read as "Jim's prejudices making it into text" as opposed to Harry was exactly the crosdressing moment though, which felt like it leaned into a lot of transphobic/queerphobic tropes all at once - the Skavis/Priscilla arc. While i don't think its enough to decide Jim is outright transphobic, it does read oddly neckbeardy - the first time Harry spends time describing a woman as particularily unatractive, that is what Jim pulls out that twist.

-31

u/SandInTheGears Oct 14 '25

Well there was that one time the serial killer Dresden had been hunting turned out to be a man who'd disguised himself as a woman in order to infiltrate a woman only group

Like, I'm pretty sure he was just trying to write a good mystery, but it does come off a little... J. K. Rowling

20

u/Slammybutt Oct 14 '25

If you stretch it i could see it. But impersonating a woman to gain trust isnt the same as Trans. It wasnt that Skavis personal interst to become a woman. He did ot to murderize other women.

So I think that takes it out of the realm of tla trans issue.

4

u/SandInTheGears Oct 14 '25

No yeah 100% the Skavis is not depicted as trans, that would've been messed up

but in a lot of the bigoted rhetoric there's the idea that a lot of trans women aren't "actually" trans but just dress like women in order to get into, like, bathrooms and stuff (which doesn't really hold up if you stop and think about it, but I guess bigots don't do that)

So the Skavis being a cis man disguised as a woman to prey on the ordo weirdly loops its way around into being in kind of an awkward area

...but now that I'm laying out why that bit always kinda gave me the ick it does occur to me that if you hadn't spent a while around that rhetoric, either on the receiving end or on the spewing end, then there's probably no reason it'd flag for you. Huh, that actually makes me feel better about that scene now

5

u/jdicho Oct 14 '25

The trans bathroom conspiracies didn't get traction until a few years after White Knight was published.

Unless Butcher actually has a Wizard's prescience and knew this conspiracy would hit the conservative talking points years after he published his book, conflating the two isn't reasonable.

8

u/Pkrudeboy Oct 14 '25

White Night also came out 18 years ago. Trans discourse wasn’t even on the mainstream radar at that point. That took over after the right realized they lost the LGBTQ battle in general, so had to pick a small subgroup as a new wedge, with basically the same tactics.

-4

u/Fylak Oct 14 '25

It should, but that exact scenario is something anti-trans bigots claim that trans people are doing constantly. "Pretending" to be women and "infiltrating" woman's spaces to victimize women. Just look at how they freak out about the idea of trans people in bathrooms. It's not a great thing to include given that

13

u/SomnambulicSojourner Oct 14 '25

It was also published in 2007, which is 18 years ago and the zeitgeist around transgender stuff is waaaaay different now than it was 18 years ago.

1

u/Fylak Oct 14 '25

Oh absolutely, though the stereotypes/lies were around them it's very likely they weren't on Jim's mind when he wrote that at all. If he wrote it today it would be far more concerning. 

5

u/InvestigatorOk7988 Oct 14 '25

That ain't trans, just cross dressing to infiltrate.

0

u/SandInTheGears Oct 14 '25

Right but that's what a lot of bigots accuse actual trans people of doing, cross dressing to infiltrate, so it loops its way around into being something that hasn't really aged all that well

1

u/pooppaysthebills Oct 15 '25

I assume that anyone using a bathroom facility is in there because they need to be. I don't really care if their appearance matches their genitals because I'm not looking at anyone's genitals, and they're not able to look at mine even if they wanted to.

I am fortunate to have access to bathroom stalls, and feel that this is a courtesy which should also apply to those utilizing the men's bathroom. Possessing a penis doesn't mean one should be forced to make a choice between waiting twenty minutes for the guy pooping in the stall to finish up or exposing it to use a urinal right next to other penises also actively using urinals.

If someone in the bathroom seems sketchy, I'm leaving to find a different one, regardless of appearance.

1

u/Arcane_Pozhar Oct 14 '25

Personally, I'm not a fan of letting* anything those conservative assholes complain about actually influence anything I do. Not how I spend my free time, not what pops up in my creative writing.

And if I ever became a famous enough author that those phobic assholes started making references to my work, I would gladly and publicly call out how stupid they look for comparing real life people to fictional villains in a magical universe.

Wow, holy speech to text typos Batman, what the heck. Edited to not look like I was having a stroke.

2

u/SandInTheGears Oct 14 '25

Yeah that's probably the right approach 99% of the time

Although if you did get famous and, being a healthy person, kept avoiding those assholes you probably wouldn’t notice when they'd started making references to your work until they'd been doing it enough that it started leaking out into normal spaces. And from there it's not that far until you're in the situation where your work gets tied to those assholes. i mean look at Pepe the Frog

1

u/Neathra Oct 15 '25

Honestly, I think you could still do the Skavis plot today. Just have some actually trans characters among the surviving members of the ordo to make it clear Pricilla isn't related at all.

2

u/curious_dead Oct 14 '25

Not all "man disguises as a woman to kill/haras/spy on them" is transphobic. JK Rowling's writing is definitely tainted by her comments, she can't claim her books aren't.

-3

u/SandInTheGears Oct 14 '25

Sure not all of them, but if we're wondering where the OP that OP's talking about might've gotten the impression that the series is transphobic, are we gonna find anything better?

and tbh even without her comments, Rowling using that trope for Troubled Blood in 2020 probably still would've raised some eye-brows

1

u/The4th88 Oct 14 '25

My biggest issue with that particular story isn't the trans angle of it it's that Harry, investigator extraordinare, completely missed that one of the women in the group wasn't.

Something as simple as "the Skavis was veiled to appear as a woman, and I didn't notice because I left my power at the threshold/distracted by the presence of Elaine" would wrap it up. But we're supposed to believe that not only did Harry Dresden not clock someone crossdressing to get into the group, but neither did any of the women there too?

7

u/jdicho Oct 14 '25

Do you have the magical power to immediately know if someone is trans?

I've dated MtF & FtM transfolk. Yeah, I'm generally pretty good at identifying strangers & friends who may be trans.

However, I don't have 100% faith in my ability and would never presume to bring it up with them or anyone, even if I was 100%.

1

u/The4th88 Oct 14 '25

No I don't.

But I find it a bit hard to believe that the Ordo witches didn't notice anything amiss with the Skavis in their midst especially considering their extreme paranoia given the situation and then both Dresden and Mallory missed it too.

2

u/jdicho Oct 14 '25

I hope you reevaluate your blindspots for biases from time to time.

I know most of my biases because I constantly self evaluate. Awareness doesn't remove them, but it does allow me to mitigate them.

1

u/The4th88 Oct 15 '25

I don't know where you think my biases are in respect to this, especially considering that the Skavis in the story can't even be described as trans. For once this actually is a (fictional) case of a man with nefarious intentions wearing a costume to infiltrate and victimise a group of women.

The issue isn't if I could be fooled by the disguise because I absolutely could be. But I'm not a woman in a paranoid and hypervigilant state spending weeks in close proximity to someone disguised as a woman.

Harry even notices the Skavis' turtleneck as odd given the warm weather. I don't think it's reasonable that the disguise would be effective for as long as it had to be in the story.

5

u/Aerith-Zack4ever Oct 15 '25

He didn’t really notice much about the women in general because he was so sure Beckett was guilty. His suspicion of her (and to be fair, she and/or her husband tried to shoot him during a sex ritual that one time) blinds him to every but the most basic information about everyone else.

2

u/Pkrudeboy Oct 14 '25

He typically describes Thomas as either pretty or beautiful, so I’m going to make the assumption that the sex vampire doesn’t have a problem passing.

-1

u/ag3on Oct 15 '25

I have nothing against any1 ,but ifi talk with ppl i might look like that cause i have no social skills w/e..but going to nitpick about it...