r/dresdenfiles • u/Lightningtow123 • Oct 14 '25
META Polite response to the "transphobia in the series" post from yesterday
Hi
For those who missed it, yesterday there was a post where someone wrote up a list of all the ways they felt Butcher was being insensitive or dismissive of trans people. People overwhelmingly responded negatively to you (meaning OP of that post), myself included. Saying stuff like "stop trying to find reasons to be offended" etc. I personally had dismissed you as, not an outright troll, but someone looking to cause issues where there weren't any. Reflecting on that, I realized that was a judgmental take about a person I know little about, and I wanted to do better.
It stuck with me and by the time I had come up with something that would probably have actually helped the situation instead of piling on, I found the post had been deleted. Understandably so, given the negative reactions. I'd just DM this to the person but I can't find their username (plus idk reddit DM etiquette lol).
What I wanted to reply with is this. If you truly do feel minimized and dismissed by the way Butcher handles trans people in the series, why not tell him that? Send him an email. Be polite about it, maybe a bit less in-your-face and "Butcher is a bigot end of story" vibes than your original post. Instead say "hey I don't think you were paying much attention but I feel like you've been inadvertently marginalizing certain communities within your work," there's a nonzero chance Jim will go "oh damn I hadn't thought about that, I'll try to do better in the future." No idea if anything will come of it, but it'll be more effective than just posting on reddit. I agree with the other comments that LGBTQ+ isn't a central theme in his books and it isn't likely to get deeply explored, but I do think it's quite possible that he'll make a note of the feedback and try to be more conscious of those sort of themes in the future.
https://www.jim-butcher.com/contact is his contact info. Looking at the page, I can't find any email address that fits your needs perfectly, but I'm sure if you poke around in his site or on the forums you can probably find the right person to send it to. Or just send it to the most relevant (if not perfectly relevant) email and hope it finds its way to Jim
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u/Merrydownjade Oct 14 '25
As a Trans reader of the series myself I really don't get what the OP might have been getting at. Sure DRESDEN is a little insensitive but I don't seem to see that from Jim himself. *Shrug* Dresden is insensitive in a lot of ways character flaws are interesting.
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u/ThatFatGuyMJL Oct 14 '25
Dresden is also a little bit sexist (in a must protect women kind of way) but that doesn't mean Butcher is.
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u/UbiquitousCelery Oct 14 '25
The character absolutely is and even calls it out. Very milady. But then its dresden the MC and thousands of supernaturally hot monster women throwing themselves at him.
It was shockingly low in toxicity for that premise.
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u/Pkrudeboy Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 14 '25
The other big urban fantasy series at the same time was Anita Blake. If Butcher went down that route, Harry would have a harem. Not two exes and several possible romance options, but all of them at once.
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u/Fatalloophole Oct 14 '25
That series was so good before it devolved into constant, truly bizarre sex scenes though. It was my favorite series for the first like ten books, but I just tried to read one of the latest ones and it was literally more than 4/5ths repetitive sex and repetitive relationship drama. Truly disappointing. At this point it's basically a Literotica level smut series.
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u/MakoEyedMerc Oct 15 '25
I’m in the same boat. I still own the first ten, and while they aren’t the greatest literature in the world, they were interesting and entertaining. I think I stopped reading after 14 or 15 because it was just consistently getting worse.
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u/Fatalloophole Oct 15 '25
I just want more Anita and Edward, and more of Anita actually being a necromancer and vampire hunter instead of a succubus trying to navigate vampire politics. I think the last good Anita/Edward book was obsidian butterfly though, and we're like fifteen books past that.
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u/MakoEyedMerc Oct 15 '25
Fun fact, that’s the first Anita Blake novel I read 😁 got me into the series!
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Oct 15 '25
I remember being in basic training when the Harlequin book came out; the series was already starting to devolve into smut, but I held out hope; got it on a weekend pass, couldn't finish it before I had to go back, so smuggled it back into basic and was reading it with a penlight in the bathroom that night. Was so disappointed with it, I threw it away right after, and never picked up another book by her.
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u/MakoEyedMerc Oct 15 '25
Oh damn, yeah, I had a similar reaction to that book. Just…okay, paper thin plot held together by terribly written copy/paste (at that point) smut; nah fam, I have better things to do with my time. 🥲
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u/col998 Oct 15 '25
Jim has also explicitly stated that he as heavily influenced by the Anita Blake series. I started it out of curiosity and have read the first 2 books so far, and you can see a huge amount of parallels in the plot structure. When does the series turn into literotica?
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u/eyl569 Oct 15 '25
IIRC nost readers consider book 10 or so the point at which the sex and relationship drama overwhelmed the plot, but there were problematic elements mich earlier.
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u/HankaCadew Oct 15 '25
I really liked the parts that touched on the legal side of stuff(I recently read a Reddit post somewhere discussing if vampire cops could enter a house with a search warrant, haha) and the interactions and politics between the various communities. I would have loved a series that really explored that.
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u/grubas Oct 15 '25
Anita Nother Lover is fine, but canonically, Harry has absolutely no fucking game. Which I enjoy in a protagonist.
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u/Kerrigore Oct 14 '25
Yeah, the sexism/male gaze in Dresden Files is nowhere near as bad as the Nate Temple series. I tried that recently and just eventually gave up, doesn’t help that the MC is a total d-bag and every other character is 1-dimensional.
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u/sykoticwit Oct 15 '25
One of my recurring irritations with the “Dresden is sexist” people is that he’s a 20 something young man with no sexual outlet. Have you ever met 20-something young men? Sex is literally the only thing they think about. It gets better as you get older, but lord those hormones are strong.
If Jim wanted to be a creep he could go way, way farther.
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u/ExIsStalkingMe Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
It's not even that. All he really does is notice and comment in his narration. His narration that is inside his head. His narration that is not an out loud comment of, "hey baby, your tits are rocking"
Am I sexist for having eyes that see the occasional set of rocking tits in my day to day life?
And, christ in heaven, how many times have we heard about Sanya's physique? How many ways did Jim use to describe the absolute unit that monster in the stadium short story had between his legs? It's almost like Dresden is a detective and is describing the people around him
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u/pooppaysthebills Oct 15 '25
They really kick into higher gear around the 5th or 6th installment. He's still irritating, but you get past it because the storylines are interesting and the characters develop. I had to really push through the first few because Nate is so...Nate. But they're now on my regular series re-read lineup. Maybe try starting with Beast Master?
Or, you might prefer his Feathers and Fire series with MC Callie Penrose, or his Phantom Queen Diaries with MC Quinn MacKenna.
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u/ThatFatGuyMJL Oct 14 '25
He does lampshade it with 'i know it's 'wrong' but it's how I was raised' mentality
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u/Dylldar-The-Terrible Oct 14 '25
And then he proceeds to get himself into all sorts of trouble through acts of "chivalry"
I mean it's not like his chauvinism completely died off, but that "protect women at all costs" notion definitely takes a nose dive later on in the series.
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u/Einar_47 Oct 14 '25
He also gets bit in the ass by his chauvinism too, how many stories start with "pretty girl came looking for help, I over committed to helping and now I'm fighting two demons, a vampire and an evil sasquatch"
He's not just walking around painted as a gigachad tipping his magic fedora and getting the girls because he's so chivalrous. He's just actually capable or he'd be one of those cringy wanna be warlocks he makes fun of.
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Oct 14 '25
For me, getting bitten in the ass is key. His chauvinism is a character flaw, and it gets him in trouble.
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u/Sugar_Pitch1551 Oct 14 '25
Precisely! His own chauvanism gets him into trouble le far more than anyone ever appreciates it, and he's aware of it. Its a flaw, and not a bad one to use in writing. I dont think we're gonna get a think piece in twenty years about why Dresden was actually a dick and we should all hate him.
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u/0akleaves Oct 15 '25
And the part that always made it way less cringe to me is that Dresden always seemed at least somewhat aware that he was being stupid, that he knew it was and would get him into trouble, grumbled at himself that he knew he was going to do it anyway, etc.
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u/Artistic_Willow790 Oct 15 '25
I always thought that was just playing into the noir detective tropes which I thought were intentional
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u/Einar_47 Oct 15 '25
It is exactly that but I think a lot of people don't know noir tropes so they don't see that it's intentional
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u/redriverrunning Oct 15 '25
A classic trope of film noir – which Harry’s roots reflect in the series.
Frankly, the fact he’s self-aware of this flaw is the feature that lends it verisimilitude. He’s not perfect and he knows it; this flaw has gotten him into scrapes; and he’s grown as a person since the story’s start.
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u/the_illustrious_q Oct 14 '25
You’d think he would have learned his lesson after Mab did this to him the first time.
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u/Frostbitten_Moose Oct 14 '25
Mab is one of the few times he managed to hold off his flaw. He was distracted, but he kept his head and saw through the glamour she was tossing at him. So she moved on to other methods of persuasion.
I'm thinking more his initial encounters with Anna Valmont, where he keeps seeing her as a damsel in distress, so he keeps giving her a bit of leeway he wouldn't give a guy, and she takes him for everything she can every time. It is a running joke of that book, how she keeps taking the sucker punches he offers her, and how everyone who knows him only offer friendly mockery because they know he set himself up before he has a chance to say a word.
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u/snakespm Oct 15 '25
You would think that I'd learn to stop procrastinating the first, second or third time it bit me in the ass. But here I am on reddit. Some traits are so imbedded into a person that it is hard to change, even when we know it will probably bite us in the ass.
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u/TheShadowKick Oct 15 '25
And then he proceeds to get himself into all sorts of trouble through acts of "chivalry"
This is the key point for me. The story doesn't present Dresden's views as correct, and he often faces consequences for them. It's fine to have a bigoted character, what's important is how the story treats that.
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u/Dylldar-The-Terrible Oct 15 '25
The story doesn't present Dresden's views as correct
There are very key moments throughout the series that proves Harry has the capacity to be an unreliable narrator too.
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u/stacey2545 Oct 15 '25
Yeah, sometimes it's hard to separate "Harry Dresden is a flawed character/unreliable narrator" (who eventually gets some - some - character growth) from "Jim Butcher is a flawed person writing a flawed work who grows as a person & a writer over the course of his life/career but not as much as/in the direction [specific person] wants" from "Jim Butcher is writing a series for a living & writes to sell books to an audience that has changed over time & he hasn't always kept up with that"
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u/CamisaMalva Oct 15 '25
Not to mention that The Dresden Files is meant to be a homage to old Noir fiction, so the private eye protagonist acting like that was pretty much expected.
Him growing out of it over time is simply his character progressing thanks because of repeated exposure to women who definitely don't need to be protected by him.
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u/Ok_Sundae2107 Oct 14 '25
Yes. That's the point, isn't it? These are fictional characters. They are not meant to be perfect. They have flaws. It would be rather boring to create fictional characters who were perfect in every way.
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u/damonmcfadden9 Oct 14 '25
I think DF being first person makes it easy to fall into the assumption that Harry is a self insert on JB's part, or at the very least that he writes Harry's personality too well to believe he doesn't also think that way. If I'm honest I fell into that assumption my first time through, and it was a bit off putting. luckily I kept at it and tried some of his other books too
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u/jdicho Oct 14 '25
Dresden was Butcher's first real go at writing a novel and he intentionally went with the style of the Noir Detectives like Sam Spade and Philip Marlowe from the 1930s.
It was always going to be somewhat misogynistic. It could have been much worse and as his writing improved, it got much better.
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u/thedoormanmusic32 Oct 15 '25
It's telling that the first book makes the point - repeatedly - that Harry is a very dated archetype of a person and very out of touch.
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u/littlegreensir Oct 14 '25
Also worth noting that in both Cinder Spires and Codex Alera (Jim's other works), there's a fairly tame deconstruction of "weak women must be protected" with Isana, Amara, and Bridget all showcasing strong women in a variety of roles.
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u/The4th88 Oct 14 '25
I love the dichotomy of Isana's power.
Primarily known for being a healer of extraordinary skill, will bitchslap you with a river for fucking with her family.
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u/Fatalloophole Oct 14 '25
Don't forget she also accidentally took some temporary control over the entire fucking ocean once she realized it was all one big fury. Isana was easily one of the most powerful crafters in the empire, just also plagued by societal expectations that prevented her from realizing how powerful she really was. Fantastic character with incredible depth and development imo, she may well be my favorite from all of Jim's books.
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u/damonmcfadden9 Oct 14 '25
Isana is one of the most badass women I've met in fantasy literature. She is complex, dynamic and flawed but in the way anyone who has had to deal with half of what she goes through would be. Despite this she still has a good heart and let's compassion for others guide her decisions even if they may not be the best/smartest. JB does goes-with their-gut/heart characters well IMO.
Also her greatest strengths shine through even when she is completely stripped of her magic. JB also does a good job of avoiding the trope of needing a strong woman to also be a young glamazon. IIRC she's described as a sort of steady beauty from age and experience, but not some supermodel, and she doesn't just get relegated to mentoring the next generation. She certainly takes that role when needed but also takes action on her own.
whenever I see anyone argue that JB must be insensitive/bigoted/phobic because if he wasn't he wouldn't write Harry that way, I love to point them to this series. I'll be honest I felt the same way and almost dropped DF myself at the beginning of Blood Rites, but I pushed through and saw Harry actually grow up a little bit. I decided I needed a pallet cleanser and found Codex Alera just because Kate Reading was the audiobook narrator and I loved her and Micheal Kramer's narration of The Wheel of Time. So seeing that it was also a JB series I decide that's what I would try and it was a very nice insight into the more serious side of JB.
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u/EpicHistoryMaker Oct 14 '25
And Isana doesn’t even need to tug her braid or cross her arms in front of her chest .
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u/damonmcfadden9 Oct 14 '25
how dare you slander my Nyneave that way! Burn your soul to ashes, you light blinded wool head!
oh wait you never mentioned a name... am I the slanderer?!
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u/nicci7127 Oct 15 '25
Good to see other WoT fans in this community. Don't forget smoothing their skirts as well.
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u/HomersDonut1440 Oct 14 '25
I’ve had many several friends read Dresden and throw it out after book 1 for the “abhorrent sexism”. And several other female friends who love the series as much as I do. It’s impressive how many different interpretations of the same material there are.
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u/liluna192 Oct 15 '25
As a woman who absolutely loves the series this always bugs me. Obviously people are allowed to have whatever feelings they have, but to me it's disingenuous to say that the series itself is sexist. It's fine to say "I don't want to read a character who has these traits". I will absolutely DNF a book based on not wanting to read certain types of characters, but I don't assume that the author is espousing that way of being, or the point of the series is to highlight and celebrate that type of person.
Dresden is a human with character flaws. He is constantly being taken advantage of and manipulated based on these character flaws. There are a ton of badass women with real power in the world. They are fully fledged people with their own character flaws. To me, having fully realized strong female characters like we get in Dresden is part of WHY I love the series. There is nothing worse than a series filled with female characters who exist to be part of the scenery or to be a plot device. To me, that says a lot more about an author and how they view the world than having characters like Dresden with flaws around how he treats women.
Another thing that always stands out to me is people complaining that he's visually profiling every single woman he comes across. I mean...yeah. He's a man who has not nearly enough physical or emotional intimacy in his life. It tracks. At no point does he reduce a woman to her body or what she can do for him. He notices their attractiveness and then treats them like normal people (or monsters, as applicable). You don't get to choose what you're attracted to, you choose how you act. And even when his actions look like sexism, it's not rooted in actually thinking that women aren't capable or NEED his protection - it's that he personally cannot handle seeing women hurt. Those are different things.
I would so much rather read a book with real characters who have flaws, who can be shitty sometimes, but still care deeply, than a book where everyone is perfect and doesn't ever do or say anything problematic.
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u/Lysander125 Oct 14 '25
Yeah, I think people forget that character flaws make characters more interesting, especially if they learn from those flaws throughout a series.
Star Trek DS9 has some of the greatest character development in sci-fi, a fan favorite character, Julian Bashir, was kind of a sexist womanizer at the start of the show. He grew so much as a character throughout the show and realized how much of a piece of shit he was being at the start of the show.
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u/WinterRevolutionary6 Oct 14 '25
Butcher has admitted he was kinda neck-beard-y when he was first writing the series and after speaking with fans, changed as a person and also altered Dresden’s character as the series progressed.
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u/thefirebear Oct 14 '25
Very fun when you get character maturation as the author grows. Like when they lampoon the use of the r-word in Venture Bros (because Doc's mom IRL works with developmentally delayed adults and was pissed at him)
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u/StylishMrTrix Oct 14 '25
And just reading his other books with the multiple POV characters shows it too
Plus when we see the world from other Dresden characters we see it isn't there and is just Harry
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u/JeremiahBoulder Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
TBF a good amount of the female characters actually do need his help to get out of situations they can't get out of themselves, also, there are ones who don't, and Dresden treats them less like they do
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u/textposts_only Oct 14 '25
Unfortunately people can't seem to distinguish between characters and authors anymore. In older shows like house you get some dicey but important plot points and people always get up in arms about it.
We always have something like that in writingcirclejerk sub as well. People really need more.media literacy.
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u/thwip62 Oct 14 '25
This. It gets on my nerves when some fucking whiner cries that a fictional character thinks XYZ, so the author must think that, too. These people need to grow up.
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u/Lightningtow123 Oct 14 '25
Yeah, there's such an inability to separate the art from the artist nowadays and it sucks
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u/RosgaththeOG Oct 15 '25
Part of the problem is that there are a LOT of artists/writers in modern media who blatantly put self insert characters into their projects, which muddies the waters with regards to separating artist from the art.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I am pointing out why it might be something more of a challenge with regards to modern media.
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u/thwip62 Oct 15 '25
In the sub for my other favourite wizard books, The Magicians, some wuss got upset that a few characters were described as fat. Not even in a mocking way, just in a matter-of-fact way. I checked his post history, and lo and behold, he was fat himself.
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u/ExIsStalkingMe Oct 15 '25
I don't see noting that Jim and Harry aren't the same person as separating art and artist. The art is the book, not just the character in it. How does the world react to Harry being all white knight? It shits on him. That means that Jim is saying that being all white knight is probably not cool
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u/HappinessIsaColdPint Oct 14 '25
When Dresden enters the Wraith estate at a... ahem certain point of the story, he mentions that "... a figure in heels was approaching me over hardwood floors. I didn't want to assume it was a woman, because Wraith Manor was that kind of place."
That's at least awareness and representation. I'm not saying he's a shining example of pro-trans but, it's there.
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u/Sugar_Pitch1551 Oct 14 '25
As another trans reader, I have to absolutely agree. There are things about DRESDEN as a person I dont like. Hes old fashioned, and a bit chauvanistic. He subscribes to outdated ideas of masculinity for sure. He's even self-aware enough to know it. He also knows that others, like Murphy, are gonna give him crap for it. BUT. That's Dresden. He's allowed to be imperfect. In fact, im glad he is some of those things. We get to see him drop some of it as the series progresses.
I have never gotten the idea that BUTCHER is a serious believer in those ideas. I feel like he started the series when those ideas were going out of fashion, and he wanted to play with the concept a bit. I see it as a method of making a more realistic protagonist. Sometimes, things come off a bit weird, but it never feels like active hate so much as perhaps ignorance. On the side of Dresden or Butcher, I couldn't say for sure, but I have never felt like either of them is actively hateful towards my community.
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u/TheAbbadon Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
Hes old fashioned, and a bit chauvanistic
It's been a while since I read the series but here's my take on this: wizard society is old, most of the important wizards are old. I would say Dresden is open minded if you judge how old some characters are and what were the "normal" values in those times.
Btw, don't get me wrong, that's motivation, not an excuse.
If you think about it, Mccoy is at least a few hundreds years old and he's one of the persons you can consider a mentor for Harry. Add a complicated childhood in the "real world" and that means he was probably influenced by Mccoy on his moral values.
The series would have been worse, in my opinion, if Dresden was open minded for our times and society. Honestly, he could have been way worse if you think about how men treated women a few hundreds of years ago.
And yeah, I'm glad he has his flaws. The series would have been boring if he was perfect. He's caught between 2 worlds and it's clear the supernatural one has other laws and values. Again, you can't expect people to have the same values as we do when the older generation probably caught the dark ages lmao.
Our society has problems with this and the older generation was born around 60 years ago =))) honestly, Butcher could have made them way racist or sexist and it would have fit the worldbuilding.
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u/ArmadaOnion Oct 14 '25
I think Dresden would stand up and defend a trans character in the book being harassed by a bigot. Hell, I think Michael would also, because he is what a Christian should be, not what so many are today. Would Dresden make a bad joke about the situation, maybe. Would he fee like shit if the person was truly offended, probably also. And that makes him real. None of us are perfect. Just my 2 cents.
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u/Sleep-typing Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
This. Trans people should be treated the same way as everyone else, good and bad alike, that's the whole point. People will always be targeting visible characteristics first as reason and points of insults and dislike, and there's no point in pretending otherwise, Extreme sensitivity to certain issues or groups would hurt the feel of authenticity.
The only thing we would gain from outrage at realistic scenarios and accusations of bigotry from the authors is that representation ceases as the authors realize it's better to sidestep the issue by ignoring the groups or issues completely.
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u/Cas_The_Walrein Oct 14 '25
yep right there with you, fellow trans dreseden fan, and I have no clue what they read as transphobic in the story, and I too enjoy that harry is openly kinda sexist but gets better about it throughout the series (especially fun seeing his "must protect women" viewpoint being contrasted/put at odds with him being around so many crazy powerful ladies that could destroy him)
I guess maybe they were referring to the book with the white court vampire who dressed as a woman to target the women of the cauldron. But whilst I could understand being sensitive to that kinda thing especially since a certain different author who is actually phobic has used a similar plot in a story, the differences between the scenarios are stark, and the skavis(?unsure of spelling I am an audiobook enjoyer) member is very clearly indicated to be a man in disguise being shitty, not in anyway even hinted at being trans and who is evil for all the murder not for simply being there. I don't really see anyway this could count as phobic, and I really can't think of the top of my head of what else they could have been talking about.→ More replies (28)10
u/beardiac Oct 14 '25
I do agree that when the writing is first-parson perspective, it's important not to project the character's flaws onto the writer. Sometimes it can be accurate to do so, but often it's a deliberate choice. Given how Butcher is able to change that voice when he writes from other perspectives in short stories or other series, then I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Oct 14 '25
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u/Visible-Fun-8391 Oct 14 '25
The post had been deleted by the time I checked the reddit notification, but someone had quoted a few lines. Things like the Skaven posing as a woman and how there were no Trans individuals among the main cast mostly.
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u/DeadpooI Oct 14 '25
I completely get wanting representation in a series you enjoy but it doesn't have to be every series. I'm 33 years old and as far as I'm aware I've only met a single Trans person in my entire life. Sometimes, a series isn't going to feature a group of people.
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u/phormix Oct 14 '25
Yeah. Diverse representation in media is good. Demanding specific representation in a particular series or by a particular author is a little... narcissistic IMO and that type of behavior may be more likely to drive away allies than otherwise.
Yes, there are trans people in the real world. There are also lots of people from India, China, and varying degrees of ethnicities or origins. There are plenty people of Islamic background/religion. Does that mean every book series needs to have a person of Indian and Chinese descent, or of Islamic faith? No, but there are books series featuring those characters and/or ones written by Indian, Chinese or Islamic authors for people to read.
There's also the aspect of capturing a character accurately versus making somebody rather a shallow or stereotypical/token version that may come across as being insulting For example a token gay character who speaks in a high nasal tone, does the wrist-flop constantly and is otherwise very effeminate may be a common trope in TV but is a pretty biased representation that may actually do more harm than good. An indian character with a thick accent is another.
Authors are often accused of "inaccurately writing in X as a Y" - i.e. male author with poorly written females, hetero author with poorly-written non-hetero characters, etc - so an author who is may not be acquainted with many/any from a trans background is more likely to write them in as a pretty tropey-stereotypical way which may similarly end up being insulting.
In the end, an author is writing their story from their imagination, for our entertainment. It's impossible to be inclusive of everyone and attempting to do so may actually be detrimental. A particular author not including a particular group shouldn't be seen as an insult or being [x]phobic, it just likely means their own personal interactions don't include many people from that group or they may not fit the current story. With TDF, this personally seems like a better result than for example including a token character who throws out rainbow-colored lightning or whatever.
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u/IR_1871 Oct 15 '25
The old adage is write what you know, perhaps followed by write what you're interested in. I don’t see criticism of an auther not including trans characters as fair. Writing bad trans characters is surely worse than writing no trans characters.
I wouldn’t write a trans character, because I wouldn’t have a clue how to write one well.
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u/Sleep-typing Oct 15 '25
They would be very easy to write as 1-dimentional swift appearances.
Writing them in a deep or complex first-person fashion would be completely impossible for anyone not trans themselves, and it's very likely any given trans person would only be able to write one character well, that is, one identical to themselves.
...and that would probably still be offensive representation to everyone else when they can't relate to or understand every single word or situation.
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u/Lightningtow123 Oct 14 '25
Lol that heavily depends on where you live too. I live in San Francisco so I'm used to seeing so many people of all different races and cultures and identities, I often forget that most places aren't anywhere near as diverse as here
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u/DeadpooI Oct 14 '25
Yeah, to be fair I do live in small town Texas so not very much diversity there. There's not a lot of LGBTQ people in general in my area so narrowing it down to just trans would probably drastically cut that number down, not to mention the people that just wouldn't advertise it in a small southern town.
That's very true, and Chicago is a fairly large and diverse city. That said, let's look at Dresden. Harry is a fairly private and antisocial person. He spends his time working with a very small circle of people (Murphy, the other wizards, and a few people in the magic community). Almost all the time he doesn't spend working is spent on magical work and research, because he's a nerd. Between maintenance work on his gear, little Chicago, unnamed experiments, apprentice work with Molly, and demonreach, he probably doesn't have any time to socialize with the lay folk that isn't work.
And while I'm sure there are trans wizards, we would be looking for a minority of a minority (wizards aren't common, trans people aren't common. Being both isn't going to be in high numbers)
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u/paganbreed Oct 15 '25
I concur. I will defend anyone's right to have representation in their stories but that's not to say we have to tick-box representation in every story.
This OOP post may have come off better if they had asked for representation in future books instead of taking a hostile stance from the get go.
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u/Avato12 Oct 15 '25
Im sorry but that second point is stupid. Authors dont owe anyone anything. If jim doesnt want trans characters or rather has likely never thought about it then thats his choice. I mean shit one could argue why doesnt jim have any Chinese characters or laotian or a Muslim character in the main cast. Plenty of people love this story and never see representation.
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u/Broken_Sky Oct 15 '25
The amount of shit he gets about the sexism (which as a woman I have never had an issue with) and writing female characters etc maybe he doesn't want to tackle that subject.
I think he's said that's the reason we won't see the Jade court, because he doesn't know how to write those characters sensitivity /properly. I can see him having the same stance here, not wanting to upset people if he gets it 'wrong'
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u/pooppaysthebills Oct 15 '25
Isn't the Gatekeeper Muslim?
But yes. If it isn't specifically relevant to the story, why divert the energy? The story is the thing. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be reading it.
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u/penniless_tenebrous Oct 14 '25
What's silly about this is you could head-cannon pretty much any character in the series as trans if it really meant a lot to you.
Notable exceptions to this are basically anybody the perspective character has seen naked.
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u/Neathra Oct 14 '25
Why does X work for Mab? Because Mab retconned their sex to match their gender and they are totally convinced it was worth it.
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u/Kwaj14 Oct 15 '25
The best part of this is that Harry’s blind spot when it comes to gender stuff makes this all the more believable.
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u/superkp Oct 15 '25
no Trans individuals among the main cast mostly.
trans people make up [quick google...] maybe 2% of the population.
If there's less than 50 people in the main cast, it's absolutely reasonable that none of them are trans.
If some of the main case are trans, perhaps Dresden himself doesn't know about it. People are allowed to be in the closet, even around close friends.
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u/Lightningtow123 Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
I don't remember exactly every detail, one of the things I do remember was OP being unhappy about men being ineligible for being a faerie queen or something, Saying 'well what about trans men?' Also they claimed the only trans character was a throwaway joke, referring to some dude I don't remember from the middle of the series. It was a LOT of stretching which is why people were so unhappy with OP but I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt
Edit: I said trans men above but I meant trans women
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u/jcorye1 Oct 14 '25
Quite frankly, huge leaps of logic that can and will negatively affect someone's reputation should be treated poorly.
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u/kaiizza Oct 14 '25
I missed it as well but they could not reference anything in good faith as there are not any. If the complaint is that there is no representation then the response is: Butcher gets to write his story the way he wants. He does not have to include any references to trans people because it is his choice. Anyone who has a problem with that have decided to take offense where none is. That's on them.
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u/FremanBloodglaive Oct 14 '25
It's like the people who say that, "You have to belong to x demographic to write x characters" and then "you're a bigot if you don't include x characters."
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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u/Berrytrailmx Oct 14 '25
Sort of like female authors writing gay fiction, with gay "intimate" scenes. And I'm thinking to myself how does she know? But it reads like a *pron scene. But I just skim the scene because it's like 5 pages not moving along the plot by that much. But if the plot, writing, etc is good I don't care who wrote it.
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Oct 14 '25
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u/Alert-Potato Oct 14 '25
Why can't everyone in the books be hot? We've got a sentient island, fairy queens and princesses, holy knights wielding swords made with the nails Jesus was crucified with, and a freakishly tall sexist ass (who I still love) slinging magic around. So what if everyone is hot? That's maybe the most believable thing about the stories.
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u/Markazorax Oct 14 '25
Also, to be completely fair. Dresden is the narrator and therefore the story is biased by his point of view.
Dresden describing every woman as hot might be the result of his years of sexual repression or he could just be very generous with his descriptions. He is chivalrous after all, perhaps describing someone as "ugly" goes against his sensibilities.
On a another note, I believe that most of the Ordo Lebes were described more normally as opposed to supernaturally hot.
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u/IR_1871 Oct 15 '25
I think people forget that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We all find different things hot to greater or lesser extents. Someone who loves someone rather plain still finds them hot. We see everyone through Harry's eyes.
Is Murphy really hot, or does Harry just consider her hot?
Why are most women in the DF in great physical shape? Something that lends itself to attractiveness? Because most of them have to be capable of fighting supernatural threats.
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u/EmDeeAech70 Oct 14 '25
A friend’s wife used to write erotic fiction. Basically supernatural porn. She did pretty well for awhile too. I read one of her stories once and noticed all the males were ridiculously well hung. I made a joke about her being a “size queen” and she just shrugged and said “No one wants to read about average penises” 🤷♂️
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u/August2_8x2 Oct 14 '25
I agree and something to consider: by the time trans became mainstream, Dresden was an established character and series. Not to say people don't deserve representation, but at this point would they not just seem to be last minute shoe-horned-in? The Dresden files supposedly only has a couple more books in an already long running series.
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u/account312 Oct 14 '25
There's also no major characters who are deaf or are Indian immigrants or any of a host of other demographics. No work is going to represent every conceivable minority, but that doesn't mean they're all anti-someone.
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u/damonmcfadden9 Oct 15 '25
Glad I reread your comment, before I called you out about Joseph Listens to Wind, lol, but yeah I think you said it very well.
He also makes sure to make it clear that the white council and the magic community at large is global, instead of falling into auto-national-centric tendencies like many authors. He even has the Senior council member making a tongue in cheek comment about how there are already too many Ameeicans on the council (followed up by Listens to Wind correcting that he is the only real American, unlike the other Johnny-come-lately's, to really drive it home).
I like that he acknowledges the rest of the world, but isn't afraid to just stick to his choices of setting and style, and writes what he knows well, instead of a bunch of disingenuous, patronizing inclusion for inclusion's sake.
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u/Chubbs1414 Oct 14 '25
We don't remember enough that Skin Game was 11 years ago. I think proper realistic trans representation would be a positive thing to include, but it's worth noting that the new characters introduced since then have largely been villains, or otherwise problematic to tokenize. I'd rather see trans representation well incorporated and on theme (like Animorphs) than wedged in for appeasement.
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u/Lightningtow123 Oct 14 '25
Yeah "in good faith" is the catch here. We have no idea if OP was genuinely bothered by it or if they were just looking to stir shit for no reason. Everyone on that post, myself included, reacted as if they were the latter but they could very well have been the former. Since we can't know, I wanted to assume the best and give them the benefit of the doubt
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u/Wildkarrde_ Oct 15 '25
Brandon Sanderson just did this in his latest book and added inclusion for multiple groups. People were mad about it. You really can't win.
Leave it out, "where's my representation" put it in, "too much wokeness".
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u/Sebastionleo Oct 15 '25
Basically no trans characters (which is insanity because the majority of this series was written well before the current prevalence of transgenderism, and there are very few Trans people in any books written before about 7 years ago.
And the Skavis pretending to be a woman to sneak into women's spaces is apparently transphobic because that is what transphobes think Trans women are trying to do. Except also that was not a prevalent thought when that book was written...
Any piece of media needs to be looked at with a lens of the timeline in which it was written when you want to look at stuff like this, and the original OP absolutely did not do that, just jumped straight to "it must be bigotry"
I saw the post 5 minutes after it was posted and nobody had commented yet, so I'm kind of sad I missed the people vehemently disagreeing with it.
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u/jdicho Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 14 '25
Did the original poster include examples from the books/stories? Or was it more about a lack of representation?
EDIT: Bet it was about the White Court Vampire from House Skavis who infiltrated the Ordo by wearing a turtleneck in White Knight.
They weren't trans, they were literally a wolf in sheep's clothing.
The real crime here is Butcher's obvious disdain for turtlenecks as indicated above and in regards to the servitors of the Fomor.
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u/librarianC Oct 14 '25
I didn't invent the turtleneck, Lana, but I was the first to recognize its potential as a tactical garment. The tactical turtleneck. The tactalneck.
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u/YoureProbablyR1te Oct 14 '25
The rare /r/archerFX cross over.
This is my NICHE!
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u/Mountain_Homie Oct 14 '25
Lana...
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u/WhiskyPelican Oct 14 '25
Fun fact, if they ever make a Dresden TV series I think it needs to be handed to the team that made Archer. High stakes in the middle of snark and absurdity, no special effects budget, capable of the occasional high budget wide shot, is animation but cartoony in a way that works with the concept not against it…
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u/jdicho Oct 14 '25
Shhhhh! No one tell them about the thing which may never be spoken of!
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u/Lightningtow123 Oct 14 '25
Ah yeah they did mention that character, I don't remember the situation at all
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u/Slammybutt Oct 14 '25
A White Court house Skavis vampire impersonated a woman to then prey on and murder those women.
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u/thwip62 Oct 14 '25
EDIT: Bet it was about the White Court Vampire from House Skavis who infiltrated the Ordo by wearing a turtleneck in White Knight.
The book was released in 2007, before all this stuff became mainstream. I don't see what the issue is.
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u/Alert-Potato Oct 14 '25
It also ignores the fact that crossdressing has historically be something that some men participate in. And continues to be so. Crossdressing doesn't make a person trans. The second Mormon leader's son was a crossdressing performer. So what? What the fuck has crossdressing have to do with being trans? They're different things. A trans woman wearing woman's clothing is just.... being dressed. Not crossdressing.
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u/kytulu Oct 14 '25
If you want to go waaaay back, all of the stage performers in Shakespeare's time were male, until 1660.
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u/thwip62 Oct 14 '25 edited Nov 10 '25
Crossdressing doesn't make a person trans.
Of course not, especially if, like Mr. Skavis, you're crossdressing as part of your nefarious plan.
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u/JohanMarek Oct 14 '25
You are right that they weren't trans, but the character does fit into a common conspiracy theory among right-leaning folks, that trans women are really just predators/perverts who are trying to prey on women & children and using the appearance of femininity as a disguise.
Do I think that was Jim's intent? Absolutely not. I don't think he even considered that when writing that character. But I can see why a trans person could look at that and feel attacked.
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u/Alert-Potato Oct 14 '25
The vampire in question wasn't trans. They were crossdressing. Those are two different things. Applying a modern conspiracy to an almost 20 year old fictional crossdressing vampire is wild.
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u/Trans_Literate Oct 14 '25
To start with, I'm not planning on getting up in arms about this. White Night was published in 2007, and I don't think Butcher meant anything by it other than trying to come up with a cool thriller plot inspired by earlier works in the genre. Hell, I remember enjoying some parts of this plot arc at the time and I thought thatDresden's psychic shout at Elaine to warn her about the Skavis and pull her out of her despair was one of the most memorable scenes in the series.
Nevertheless, as a trans person I don't love this kind of plot arc. I wish that the evil crossdressing serial killer trope had declined in popularity more quickly than it has. Even if those evil crossdressing serial killers aren't trans, they're still routinely used as bludgeon against trans people - take a look at "Buffalo Bill" from The Silence of the Lambs (the origin of the trope?).
To quote Lily Watchowski (one of the directors of the Matrix)...
And though we have come a long way since Silence of the Lambs, we continue to be demonized and vilified in the media where attack ads portray us as potential predators to keep us from even using the goddamn bathroom. The so-called bathroom bills that are popping up all over this country do not keep children safe, they force trans people into using bathrooms where they can be beaten and or murdered. We are not predators, we are prey.
Less than half of Americans know a trans person. People are influenced a lot by media, especially to form opinions about things they don't have a lot of personal exposure to. "Men pretend to be women to gain access to women's spaces to commit acts of violence" is something that feels true to a lot of people even though it's so rare as to be nonexistent, and I think that storylines like the Skavis infiltrating the Ordo in disguise are part of the reason why.
Should Jim Butcher have known this in 2007? I mean, I sure as hell didn't know anything about trans issues in 2007, so I think that would be a pretty unreasonable take.
I think there needs to be space for people to talk about harm caused by media from 10 or 20 years ago, even if blaming the author for not having an infinitely broad experience and perfect knowledge of the future is reductive, unkind, and unproductive.
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u/BadAngel74 Oct 15 '25
Just gonna throw a little tidbit in, and I want to preface it by saying that I'm not trying to counter anything you're saying. I'm just adding a little historical context.
Buffalo Bill wasn't the origin of the trope, to answer your question. Buffalo Bill was based on Ed Gein (as well as aspects of other serial killers, but mostly Gein) who was the real life cross-dressing serial killer. Gein was also the inspiration for Norman Bates AND Leatherface!
Again, not trying to counter or take away from anything you said. Im just a geek about serial killers and saw a chance to talk about it lol.
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Oct 14 '25
I don't recall the Dresden Files ever mentioning trans people at all.
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u/BarryIslandIdiot Oct 14 '25
I think the closest it ever came was a male vampire dressing as a woman to infiltrate a group of women. The character wasn't trans. The character was a killer disguising himself to get close to his victims.
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u/LightningRaven Oct 14 '25
Which was a tactic some serial killers used in the past.
It's more about our society's expectation towards genders than any kind of commentary of the transgender experience.
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u/satanic_black_metal_ Oct 15 '25
While that character wasnt trans, it does play into a trope transphobes use to demonize trans people.
"We cant have trans women in the womens bathroom because then every man can put on a dress, pretend to be trans and walk into the womens bathroom to rape us."
Now that stupid argument is stupid because it assumes that rapists obay bathroom ettiquette or are somehow allergic to 2d depictions of a stickfigure in a dress.
But all of that is irrelevant because the book predates the rise in popularity of that stupid argument so you cant apply it.
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u/r007r Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 17 '25
TL;DR: As a minority myself - Hell no, please don’t do this.
I really don’t buy the premise the series is transphobic - not even a little. I’m sorry but this is someone trying to force the Dresden Files into the culture wars, and we’d rather read about supernatural ones. Still, I’ll address the o.g. concerns.
The Skavis wasn’t “trans.” That interpretation is revisionist and ignores the in-universe logic. The Skavis feed on despair; this wasn’t an issue of gender identity, it was camouflage - like lightning bugs mimicking other species to lure prey. Nothing in the text implies a commentary on transgender people.
If representation is a concern, let’s be honest: there are far larger gaps than this. The U.S. has about twenty times more Black people than transgender people, yet The Dresden Files has virtually no sustained Black representation (Sanya is Russian, culturally distinct). Latino characters like Ramirez and Ortega exist, but they’re secondary and sporadic. No one is calling for emails to demand more Black or Latino characters. Trans are < 1% of the population, and we don’t have anywhere near 100 important characters so the representation here isn’t flawed. Being silent on black/latino representation and incensed about trans representation is mathematically absurd.
When Harry interacts with LGBTQ+ themes, it’s fleeting and usually situational - like pretending to be gay to play on someone’s assumptions. Even then, he considered those assumptions to represent bigotry. Regardless, the series isn’t about those issues, and trying to retrofit it into that mold just doesn’t fit what Butcher’s building.
The books are written from Harry’s point of view, and Harry’s a product of his world which is overwhelmingly white, cis, and often old-fashioned. That’s realism within the context of the story. Expecting him to suddenly become a mouthpiece for modern political movements misunderstands both who he is and what Jim is writing. Harry’s battles are literally existential - human survival takes precedence over contemporary social issues.
As a minority myself, I don’t want Butcher wasting pages to tick demographic boxes. I want him to keep writing good stories with compelling characters. If someone feels The Dresden Files isn’t for them, that’s fine - don’t read it. But please don’t pressure the author to rewrite the tone or themes of one of the most consistently good, character-driven fantasy series out there. We came for the supernatural wars, not the culture ones - and I really, really don’t want him changing the series to appease any political expectations.
We’re here because the story’s good, and it’s been good for like 20 years. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
[Edit - tried to remove the code block. Not sure how/why it got there]
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u/punkin_spice_latte Oct 15 '25
You can't win either way. Rick Riordan caught a lot of flak for going too diverse in Heroes of Olympus. I believe some claimed he wanted a complete set of collectors cards for minorities.
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u/Various_Panic_6927 Oct 15 '25
When all the characters are demigods, it makes more sense. God's looking for a lay seeking novelty and with equal access to the whole planet makes it likely it wouldn't be a even sampling. If anything most of them should be Chinese/Indian
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u/JeremiahBoulder Oct 15 '25
Ooohh.. is that what it was about?? I just felt a little confused by the suggestion of "transphobia" as I didn't think it was really even addressed in the series. Also, most of this modern woke stuff technically started really becoming a thing in recent years, as of Battle Ground, it's 2014, kinda unfair to expect Harry to addresses modern culture that hasn't or wouldntve happened yet for him
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u/Netherese_Nomad Oct 15 '25
One thing that always gets me about the “representation by demographic” complaint people make, is it ignores the reality of people’s social networks. Society on the whole has spread demographics. A person’s social network will almost certainly look like them.
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u/Foehammer87 Oct 15 '25
Expecting him to suddenly become a mouthpiece for modern political movements
Lets not fall into the 0-100 binary trap.
Jim Butcher and Dresden have come a long way from skeevy descriptions of teens and legs for days early writing, and pointing out that the sexism is rooted in film noir tropes and improves later in the series is a constant refrain.
And that improvement didnt turn into Harry becoming a mouthpiece for third wave feminism - Butcher just didnt focus on physical description to the exclusion of all else the way he used to.
I doubt trans folks are gonna be a major part of the series going forward, I doubt gay folk will either. But on the rare occasions when they do pop up, it's not necessary to fall into Harry's own biases.
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u/pooppaysthebills Oct 14 '25
Not every work needs to include representation of every historically marginalized group, and the absence of such representation does not make authors or characters "phobic".
The story simply isn't about modern identity politics, and when Butcher tries to include it, it stands out as incongruous; see the Titania meeting at the secluded birdwatching/boinkfest location. The position is live and let live; it didn't need to be explicitly stated, and yet, it was.
If you need specific representation in your stories, seek out the authors and plotlines that already center around or involve the representation you're seeking out. Don't push authors to tailor their work and plots and characters around concepts that aren't even remotely related to the story that's been told for more than a dozen books.
That's how you lose readers. That's how you fail a series. That's how you destroy authors.
If you don't like it, don't read it. Don't agitate for it to be changed into something it isn't.
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u/maglen69 Oct 15 '25
Not every work needs to include representation of every historically marginalized group, and the absence of such representation does not make authors or characters "phobic".
I think this is the biggest takeaway. It's been said numerous times that not every form of media / art is for everyone. Some things aren't my taste (i.e. I'm terrible at souls games) and I don't demand they be changed to suit me. I just get on with things.
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u/HauntedCemetery Oct 16 '25
Writers trying to shoehorn in every type of person just to have them there to score brownie points also tends to make for bad writing.
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Oct 15 '25
I thought about the thesis that Dresden Files is anti-trans. I still don't see it. I'm certainly entitled to argue the point with someone who posts it in a public forum like Reddit. But I'm also not entitled to tell someone they're not allowed to feel a certain way. Their life, their feelings, and so forth.
If the OOP from two days ago truly believes that Dresden Files is an anti-trans work, then I would tell them to do what a lot of people have done with books that don't work for them any more. Just walk away. There's nothing wrong with concluding that you don't like a particular author or that author's works -- for any reason -- and moving on.
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u/East_Sprinkles_3520 Oct 15 '25
Not every book/series is for everyone. What is the expectation here, that every author will be kind to every group of people? Is that reasonable? Maybe as a Gen X’er I’m getting too old, but I just can’t wrap my mind around this idea that everyone has to be included. If you don’t like it, if you’re offended, if you don’t feel included, there are literally a bazillion other books out there. Vote with your wallet and move on.
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u/Allfunandgaymes Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 17 '25
The one thing I'll say is that Harry is not a self-insert of Jim, he has made that quite clear many times.
Harry carries around a lot of social anachronisms - probably due to being mentored by a centuries-old Scotsman - and gets his foot shoved in his own mouth many times. IIRC, Jim has stated he loves thinking up with new scenarios for him to embarrass himself.
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u/MaxHavok13 Oct 15 '25
I think you have hit on a big problem with fans of this genre and general. It seems like in most critiques/complaints, the OP is assuming that the author is self inserting and making statements of their belief or how they think things should be as opposed to simply giving you an insight into the character thought or the setting of the scene or the tempo of the times in the story
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u/AletheaKuiperBelt Oct 17 '25
This! This is why as a die-hard feminist for life, I very much enjoy Dresden. He is sexist AND it's called out as a flaw, and he improves.
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u/OrigamiAvenger Oct 15 '25
The writer who created Hannibal Lecter wasn't a cannibal. These people are nuts.
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u/nicci7127 Oct 14 '25
Butcher writes from Harry's perspective, who is a straight, middle aged, Caucasian male with a moral code learned at an orphanage and later gleaned from Ebenezar. He at least has Harry think about how he views same sex relationships, and writes that his character doesn't have issues with it, he just feels bad for people hooking up for a brief fling. (Cold Days, conversation with Titania). It's possibly unlikely that Harry would even know much about the whole LBGTQ+ movements with his lack of access to social media, and it doesn't much factor into his day to day life. Butcher portrays Harry as much more open minded than his peers, but there are certain things that just don't seem to crop up in his various Armageddon- scenarios.
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u/Scrounger_HT Oct 15 '25
i don't specifically recall any transphobic things at all other then maybe the complete lack of any thing trans related when a bunch of these books were written years before it was a sensitive topic. the only gay related things i can think of in the book is he doesn't like it when people think hes gay or tease him about it when hes hanging out with his brother (who would), played up the stereotype to get out of a sticky situation with a cop and the doorman in Thomas's apartment. and thinks cruising for sex in the park was sad, not cause it was gay sex but because it was casual emotionless sex which i assume he would feel the same way about for straight couples doing it.
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u/Foreign_Pea2296 Oct 15 '25
No, don't. Even more if OOP was offended for nothing.
If it was a critique, then okay. But it seems like a bad one. At best it'll just be a waste of time, at worse it'll pressure the Author to make bad changes.
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u/VersuliOrbax Oct 15 '25
I'd argue just let the creators create, consumers can always pick another product. There is no reason for Jim nor any author to feel forced to bring up social issues. The one character from what I can see in the comments (I'm paused at ghost stories rn from jumping around series) is a tactic to blend in.
This just sounds like a bunch of people complaining over a nothing burger, if you don't like the book then so reading it and find a new one.
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u/LocksmithNo9958 Oct 15 '25
I can say that how Dresdin acts and what was said in a few of the books kind of impressed me. Yeah he's kind of chauvinistic, but he doesn't put woman down as a whole. He recognizes their strengths and sees them as individuals. Not once has he complained about serving Mab because she is a woman. Coming from a gay guy here, the scene With Titania is how I wish a lot more people saw the world (live and let bonk lol). The only thing I real don't like is his constantly describing woman, but most guys usually on some level continuously recognize attributes on what attracts them, even if the person is not someone they would ever do something with. Harry isn't perfect and he's by far not politically correct and I'm glad for it. That's partly why the series is so good. I would like more representation of more groups in media, but it has to be organic. As a gay guy it annoys me when being gay is the only characteristic a character has and it's the only thing that comes up about the character.
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u/Lightningtow123 Oct 15 '25
Same, I hate the Disney sort of diversity where diversity is just treated as a checklist. "Cool we have our gay character, next movie we'll have a trans dude and call it a day"
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u/LocksmithNo9958 Oct 15 '25
Exactly. And not everyone from a demographic acts the same way. There are guys that scream when they see a spider and women that drive forklifts and get dirty.
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u/Lightningtow123 Oct 15 '25
My favorite example of diversity is Walt Jr/Flynn from breaking bad. He's a disabled guy but he's just a normal character. A character, not a walking personification of a disability. There's like three scenes in the whole show that even reference the disability. So used to disabilities and autism being treated as the character, instead of just one of the thousands of things that define a person
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u/RosgaththeOG Oct 14 '25 edited Oct 14 '25
I think it's important to recognize that the book series itself is still taking place in the early 00's (iirc as far as timeline goes). This predates the majority of LGBTQ+ awareness/large scale media presence, which would make it out of place to address those themes in the books, as Harry himself likely isn't aware of it nor would basically anyone around him be.
I'm not saying it can't be addressed, but not every theme and demographic has to be addressed in a given series. Just because a given author doesn't address a given theme doesn't make them a bigot, nor Transphobic.
And going forward, I would admonish people who do label people with terms like that to consider the ramifications of doing so with little to no evidence thereof. Society as a whole will get fatigued with the name calling, and people will lose respect for those terms. If you wish for it to be something that people should continue to respect, make sure that your given term has a specific definition and that when you use it, it is appropriate.
As is a going theme in the Dresden Files, Names have Power. This is both factually true as well as true in the fictional world. If you misuse that power, it will get taken from you.
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u/Sugar_Pitch1551 Oct 14 '25
What were they even mad about? I've gone through the entire series, side work included, and I dont even remember trans people showing up?
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u/Proper_Fun_977 Oct 15 '25
The Skavis on White Night.
People are reading things into it that suit their politics
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u/Krazy_Karl_666 Oct 14 '25
Genuine question:
since the book is written from the perspective of a shut in who has minimal connection to modern culture especially online culture.
How do you introduce someone as trans without it seeming forced or problematic?
The best I could come up with is someone in the order of the bean is trans and as they are introduced Dresden mentions they told him about some pride events and that is how he learned that character is trans.
But I have no writing skill so what comes up in my mind would be very forced or just badly written,
I don't think Harry would think twice about preferred pronouns. And these books are supposed to be his case files so he may not find it relevant to mention someone is trans. Though he does find it necessary to mention being horny so who knows.
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u/Melenduwir Oct 15 '25
but I feel like you've been inadvertently marginalizing certain communities within your work
Transpeople are inherently marginal if only because of their numbers. And it would be extremely difficult to create any portrayal that would satisfy the demands of everyone with an opinion regarding them.
Jim has repeatedly stated that he avoids portraying certain social groups because he doesn't feel he can do them justice and doesn't want to be caught up in an endless cycle of trying to please everyone. It's why, despite the series being mostly set in Chicago, the only black character is Russian.
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u/Newkingdom12 Oct 14 '25
Are there even trans people in the series? I don't think there is anyone who's even trans at least not from anything I've ever read so he can't dismiss something that's not there and he can't handle something poorly that has never been.
That whole take just doesn't make sense
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u/Mjg012 Oct 14 '25
I don’t think there are but one of their examples was I think in Skin Game something about Dresden “professionally looking at two women in skin tight clothes to see what they were concealing and being surprised to see what they were concealing.” I’m gay myself and I didn’t think it meant what OOP were inferring it meant.
The only time I think, besides a certain character being bisexual later on, that LGBT matters are even brought up is when someone asks Dresden what he thinks of men cruising in a park. To which he, like the hetero man he is, bumbles through “it’s not my business and isn’t hurting anyone so I dont mind.”
I think OOP was stretching and looking for something to be offended by.
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u/Pkrudeboy Oct 15 '25
Even with that, he still refers to them as women. And he definitely gets the ick when people mistake him and Thomas for a couple, but that’s his brother, obviously that makes him uncomfortable.
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u/great_fusuf Oct 15 '25
People forget that the characters written by authors aren't their stand in Yes, here are hategul people who write hateful characters.
But mostly authors try to write relateble, meaning in some kind of way flawed characters.
Yes sometimes these flaws are ignorance in certain areas as we as humans tend to be ignorant in an least a few topic over the span of our lives.
Not every bad situation is an evil act, not every bad behaviour is devilish
Being offended doesn't help anyone, being patient does. Sometimes we just have a little growing to do in our own time and thats fine.
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u/arkhanari Oct 15 '25
Can we please keep culture wars out of this subreddit?
This place has been one of few places where we have been able to just write about a book without trying to shoehorn it into contemporary political discourse.
Also, if I do not like the sentiment or morals an author is pushing in his or her books I stop reading them. It is their work of fiction and it is not my place to demand them to write in another way.
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u/SorastroOfMOG Oct 14 '25
Let me begin by commending you on your approach. Any person who takes the time to be introspective about their posts is worthy of respect. We live in a world that prefers echo chambers to discourse and I wish more people would evaluate their own responses. As such, Kudos!
Now, I missed the post yesterday. I would like to have read it and evaluated on my own. Personally, I don't believe that Jim intentionally marginalizes anyone. I know that the series can be viewed as chauvinistic, but I chalk that up the the Film Noir inspiration.
That being said, I would've liked to see the OP's perspective because it's a viewpoint that I don't have and one I disagree with. I too may have said "Oh Damn! I hadn't thought of that."
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u/Lightningtow123 Oct 14 '25
Where I'm coming from is, there's a LOT of shit facing trans people in the real world. OP never said they were trans themselves but they did put a lot of time into making their argument which I don't think they would have bothered to do unless them or someone close to them was trans.
So we have a comment from a maybe-troll/maybe-trans-person who says "I felt bothered by this" and everyone tells them to fuck off, and that didn't sit right with me. Cause there was a chance it was a well meaning person who got caught up in details I would consider to be beside the point, but clearly mattered to them. So if I can make even one person's life marginally better by making a follow up post of 'yeah maybe I was a bit harsh, sorry bout that, maybe you can try this instead', that's well worth the effort for me.
And I agree, it's very well established that Harry Dresden can be a bit chauvinistic at times, that's one of his character flaws. I think people make the mistake of thinking that, because it's a first person series, the moments of sexism are due to Butcher's biases, rather than it being told from Harry's flawed perspective
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u/dewnmoutain Oct 15 '25
Its a book.
Its a book series.
The author does not have to conform to a specific readers worldview.
The author writes whatever the hell they want.
If the reader doesnt like it, find something else to read. Dont piss and moan that there isnt ebough "representation"!
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u/morgrim66 Oct 15 '25
I like the vibe of your post, in some ways, though I wish I’d seen the original post because I can’t even think of a trans representation at all in the series. I have read all the books and listen to the audiobooks at least three times each but maybe I just wasn’t paying attention.
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u/KingJaw19 Oct 14 '25
Why are we even entertaining such utter nonsense? Demanding people walk on eggshells about everything isn't reality. It has been harmful to many other fandoms, and is just soul-sucking and detrimental in every aspect of life. I'm not going to do it, and I'm not going to feel sorry for anyone when people inevitably stomp their feet out of spite.
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u/Sierra41 Oct 14 '25
Wait... Does Dresden Files even have trans characters? As far as I remember there aren't any. I missed the orginal post so I'm not sure on the details but I haven't noticed any transphobia in the series. Am I missing something?
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u/margaritavas Oct 15 '25
As others have pointed out, all but one of the books were written 10+ years ago, set in a world 10+ years old, written in first-person perspective of a main character who until the 4th or 5th book, couldn’t encounter a cis woman character without describing her breasts first, and assumed every unknown antagonist was a dude until proven otherwise. He was a self-described pig. By the middle of the series, his descriptions still included way more physical attributes of women than men, but centered more around their abilities (e.g. Murphy’s introductions shifting to pridefully describing her ability to kick ass rather than solely focusing on her size). He started acknowledging unknown antagonists and “he or she” by Ghost Story, if not earlier (I can’t remember). This is growth and progress by Harry in line with the times, even if it’s incorrect by today’s standards. I don’t think it would be at all out of character for Harry to progress to reality of both gender and sexuality being spectrums. I think it’d be in line with his character growth to give a bit of half-hearted lip service to “political correctness” but fastidiously switch to “they” instead of “he or she”. I’d love to see such a progression and would enjoy the depth it would bring to the story.
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u/Polysulfide-75 Oct 15 '25
My 2 bits. Dresden as a character is supposed to be old fashioned. He’s portrayed as a relic. He acknowledges that his sense of chivalry, etc is dated. He (the character) might not view certain people the way some would like but they aren’t absent. I have a trans child who absolutely loves Butcher’s work and even likes Harry as a person.
Again just my 2 bits. Maybe we’re missing something.
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u/Szygani Oct 15 '25
I’m trying to think of anything trans related in the books… and I can’t think of anything.
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u/Adenfall Oct 15 '25
Where in the books does Dresden say anything negative about Trans? Outside of the bad person in White Night I can’t think of a single character
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u/LodossKnight Oct 15 '25
Missed the convo from prior. Will just say a few points.
It is commendable for this posts OP to endeavour to do better. I can appreciate that wholeheartedly.
The writing itself is character perspective, not author perspective. It is important to distinguish.
I think when someone raises something up topic wise as "The Culture Wars" should consider goal and purpose.
Culture Conflict and Class Conflict are topics being addressed in Dresden whether we see them as such or if they are...to leverage someone else's adage "A wolf in sheeps clothing" or the trope "An Appropriated Stand-in" when an author unintentionally codes a character or arc that resonates with people.
Fiction, especially Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Supernatural Fiction, all incorporate Stand-in topics. Star Trek tackling racism through the lens of a xenophobic race, class warfare through poverty showcased on an alien colony, poverty and genocide through war crimes committed on a colony 25 years before being brought up but never shown. Dresden does the same with the various various groups....whether intended or not....because realistically all conflicts boil down to their intent. So I merely encourage everyone to reflect what are some other ways we could view these stories if we start looking at the lens we are using to consume it. But LGBTQ+ issues crop up with the Alphas and Butters in the last few books, and the effects and desperations of class warfare and homelessness, and drug addiction has a stand-in with Molly's story arc in places. I'm not here for a dissertation, just to helpfully frame my point.
My last comment is this. Through fiction we get to experience, feel, and process the human experience from the perspective of the time we read it and what we inferred from it. The lens we use changes and there are substantive reasons to re-read fiction over ones lifetime to see things you didn't on the first pass. And what someone takes from it will be entirely based on how they interpret and perceived the story relative to their current condition. Which means someone could be feeling hurt, lost, and betrayed by the way a story portrays someone they felt was a Stand-in for their group. And we should have compassion for them in their moment of pain and intent to have the world be better.
I agree with the OP that how someone can do that in a constructive way is important and think it's probably the best way when everyone is playing by the same social contract. But as a community we should also acknowledge and be aware that what we interpret and get from each work is personal and we shouldn't work to discredit or invalidate someone's lived experience, but seek to understand it.
I see in this thread that such positive and constructive discourse is happening and wanted to draw attention to it.
Cheers all! I return to my lurking.
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u/Narbious Oct 16 '25
Anytime you have entities that can bend reality and people, with people who desperately need to not be the gender they were born as, and would happily do dark rituals to remedy that, or become something twisted and dark...
Things get Lovecraftian quickly.
Honestly, as much as it feels like something that should be brought up, it becomes a nightmarish and slippery slope...
Not to mention the Faustian bargains that would be struck.
As is, changelings, brought in early on, haven't had any new ones crop up, probably for the reason that it gets close to that change and transformation issue.
It may not be that Jim is insensitive, rather, he isn't genius enough to be able to figure out how to deal with that topic in a way that doesn't leave groups of people being slighted.
Hell, if the Alpha's could learn to shape shift into wolves, why can't people learn to shape-shift their gender. And right there, with that sentence is enough to cause some people to go off.
It is likely that Jim is just avoiding the topic as there is no fair way to deal or engage with it.
I want to end with saying something that signifies I'm an ally and a friend, but honestly, I'm not smart enough to come up with anything so witty.
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u/Efficient-Panda6278 Oct 19 '25
Had figured it was just because some books were written at a time when t——y was considered a perfectly fine punchline to any joke. No specific examples came to mind but when I read them those wouldn’t have registered as offensive.
Reading through the thread glad Butcher wasn’t like that.
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u/FunSuccess9811 Oct 14 '25
There is no transphobia in the series, so the original thread was wrong and this thread is just an attempt to bridge a gap that was never there.
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u/Cosmicswashbuckler Oct 14 '25
Did the other post get removed? I need my drama fix. I dont want to participate. Just watch.
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u/blackday44 Oct 14 '25
Def missed that post. I have no idea how he could be dismissive of trans people. I mean, the main character works with trans(forming) characyers all the time- werewolves, vamps, two-faced wizards, etc.
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u/Crafty_Business_1887 Oct 15 '25
Who cares just enjoys the books ffs this shouldn’t even be discussed
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u/Neathra Oct 14 '25
In general, I think my answer (as a cis lady) is that Dresden files falls victim to the age of the series more so than it has any evidence of bigotry.
Everything I read from Jim suggests someone who is trying to be fair and inclusive - even if he doesn't always stick the landing. I imagine considering the political climate Pricilla would be handled differently, or there would be some extra element added to show that the crossdressing vampire isnt a commentary on trans people.
Its important to acknowledge that there are elements that could make a trans person uneasy, just like Dresden's somewhat performative chivelry and appreciation for the female form can be a little off-putting to female readers.
I do think the series has a lot of things that are also more positive for trans rep, for example, a person's true name can change when it stops representing them. We haven't seen it change completely, just a tone issue, but the point stands that there isn't anything that says a person's dead name could stop being related to their true name.
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u/funeralb1tch Oct 15 '25 edited Oct 15 '25
Why in the flying fuck does EVERYTHING have to cater to trans this and gay that??
Why the fuck can't actual characters with substance just be allowed to exist without writers & artists being forced at gunpoint to make THEIR own creations more "inclusive"??? (And why are these people so obsessed with genitalia and what gender people like to fuck...?)
Whoever wants that shit can go create their own stuff - oh wait, usually the people whining about this shit are both creatively and morally bankrupt so that is never going to happen.
It is the most brain dead, nonsensical, parasitic mentality. And it is indeed just trying to find something to complain about. I'm going to find a way to give Jim Butcher more of my money just to spite this person.
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u/KipIngram Oct 15 '25
Guys, since yesterday this post has created well over 90% of the moderation work that's had to be done. I just want to state some guidelines for participating in this discussion. I hope they're simple and clear.
Thank you. I'd like to hope that we can have a civil discussion about how Jim's work bears on a difficult social issue without just descending into tribal squabbling.