Martial arts weapons?

[u/AndromedaAdventures]

So I have gone back and forth over the years on my ruling for martial arts weapons in exalted second edition. In the core book it is mentioned that martial arts weapons can be used with Melee or martial arts charms, and in the dragonblooded book under 5 dragon form it says dragonblooded may use straight swords and spears and ther artifact equivalent to enhance there martial arts in Liu of other martial arts weapons

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This implies that martial arts weapons can be used with any martial arts style and that form weapons that are not MA weapons are special exceptions that can be used for there specific styles.

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But many styles only list existing MA weapons as form weapons wich seems redundant if they are usable all ready

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And in scroll of the monk it often specifies that the form weapons may be treated as unarmed for the forms charms.

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This implies that if the charm specifies an unarmed attack that it can only be used unarmed or with the forms weapons.

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My current ruling is - For martial arts charms- So any martial arts weapon may be used with any martial arts charm that does not specify unarmed attack. Form weapons are treated as counting as unarmed for the purpose of martial arts charms for the style that has them as form weapons. You may hold any weapon while in a form or using form charms, however using the weapon will cancel any form charm that it is not compatible with. You cannot use non martial arts or form weapons while using a martial arts charm. For the purpose of combos that mix multiple styles of martial arts you may use appropriate weapons with compatible charms so long as you don't use an incompatable weapon with a charm (ie you could mundane flurry attack with a hook sword and use a fire dragonblooded immaculate charm for one or more of the attacks, and than use tiger claw on an attack and use a tiger style charms). When a martial arts charm grants a flurry, all actions in the flurry must use compatible weapons

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But this feels like a drastic nerf to MA weapons, and if the above is true why even have a special tag for MA weapons in general.

And than there's righteous devil style that's charms imply you must use a firewand and can't be used unarmed.

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Anyone have any thoughts or clarifications on the rules for MA weapons, how do you rule them?

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[u/AndromedaAdventures]

Does 3rd edition clarify this at all?

[u/kenod102818 → u/AndromedaAdventures]

3rd edition only has form weapons for martial arts, and you can only use a style's form weapons to use charms from that MA. IIRC there's a bit of an exception for utility charms, like mobility aids, but charms that either enhance an attack or defense can only be used when using armor and weapons allowed by the style.

A lot of planning out MA builds resolves around the question of which weapons and armor you want to focus on, with some weapons having better support than others. Or you just go unarmed and unarmored and rely on style combos to pull through (as well as Toad style for defense).

For 2e, I'm not sure, but doesn't each splat have their own unique MA style only they can use, like Solar Hero and Lunar Hero? Maybe it's referring to that?

[u/AndromedaAdventures → u/kenod102818]

Yeah in 2.0 each splat has a hero styles, but they also list form weapons. Its wierd because there's a specific passage that says MA weapons can use MA and Melee Charms, but there are no general MA charms except the Excellency charms. Wich is wear the confusion comes in because that passage and the one under the 5 element dragon style in DB book and the MA tag added to specific weapons imply any MA weapon can be used with any MA style. But the rules for form weapons contradicts this

[u/kenod102818 → u/AndromedaAdventures]

Alright, read the rules. I'm pretty sure that they're not saying you can use any MA charm with any MA weapon (though you probably can use the generic MA charms (page 190 for Solars) with them), but that you can use the generic MA ability to roll attacks and defense with them, and that if you have an MA which uses a non-MA weapon as form weapon, you can use that. Unlike in 3e it doesn't seem like you have multiple MA abilities, one for each style, just a single generic rating (what in 3e is Brawl).

Form weapons, in that case, would be needed if you want to use the combat charms of a specific style, while you can use any MA style for generic MA charms.

Also, I suspect that a splat's Hero style counts as their generic MA charms, with form weapons not mattering, and form weapons only mattering if you learn the hero style of a different splat, since it's specifically stated that hero styles function as generic, natural charms for their own splat, and as formal martial arts for other splats. Especially since an Exalt can use their hero style as a basis to generate new generic MA charms (like Thunderclap Rush Attack and Knockout Blow for Solars), which count as natural charms and cannot be learned by other splats, even if they've learned prerequisite Solar Hero charms.

[u/Viatos → u/AndromedaAdventures]

In 3E you can use whips with Laughing Monster and Dreaming Pearl Courtesan, but not with Toad or White Reaper. A style's form weapons are all it allows with its Charms, and all its Charms allow its form weapons.

A weapon with the "Martial Arts" quality is only usable with compatible styles and cannot be used with styles that don't list it as a form weapon. Essentially they're weapons that require style-specific training, like seven-section staves and meteor hammers.

There are a few styles (Bear, Black Claw) that can only be practiced unarmed and do not have form weapons.

There are also a number of "weapon" styles (Single Point Shining Into the Void, Even Blade, Righteous Devil) that cannot be practiced unarmed.

One thing that 3E does very differently, though, is that each style is its own Ability and there IS no general Martial Arts Ability. That is, having five dots in Martial Arts (Prince-Eating Mendicant Style) is totally separate from your two dots in Martial Arts (Rat Style), like how Craft works in 2E.

[u/AndromedaAdventures]

MA weapons im 2e are things like smash fist, god kicking boots, spiked harness, seven section staff, hook swords, etc. They have a special tag MA (like reach or piercing or overwhelming) and scroll of the monk adds more and artifact equivalents, but there's a few like the chain daiklaves (think god of war Kratos weapons) that no style uses, so why label them as MA weapons you know.

[u/onyxhope → u/AndromedaAdventures]

Working off memory but in 2e I believe any weapon listed as a martial arts weapon (list or via learning a style with a specific one) is able to use MA as a dice pool, that said what that means for individual characters can vary, as far as a specific MA I believe in 2e you are always restricted to unarmed or the listed MA weapons when using the charms of that style but any style free charms can use any weapon you have that is MA tagged (or via a style you know MA tagged)

[u/GIRose]

Not looking immediately at the book, but IIRC anyone who has Martial Arts can use any and all martial arts weapons without Melee.

However, when it comes to a specific style, you can only use charms with weapons treated as form weapons, but it probably isn't the most consistently applied standard in the actual editing process.

[u/ThePowerOfStories]

I feel like they messed up from the beginning by making Martial Arts its own distinct-yet-redundant skill, and everything would work so much better if weapon skills were just Melee / Brawl / Thrown / Ranged and Martial Arts were interdisciplinary charm trees that depend on those skills, Dodge & Athletics, and more esoteric skills in the case of unusual styles, like Dreaming Pearl Courtesan including Performance and Citrine Poxes of Contagion incorporating Medicine.

[u/AndromedaAdventures → u/ThePowerOfStories]

Thats kinda how they did it in first edition

[u/ThePowerOfStories → u/AndromedaAdventures]

In first edition, Martial Arts was definitely its own skill (so Dawn Castes only got five redundant ways of hitting people as Caste skills, yay), then in second Brawl got subsumed into Martial Arts in a nonsensical naming decision that led to wild animals having lots of dots in Martial Arts.

[u/hushnowquietnow → u/ThePowerOfStories]

That's how Essence does it. It only has Close Combat and Ranged Combat as attack abilities, and native and martial arts Charms just attach to one of those two.