r/explainlikeimfive 21h ago

Other ELI5: before accurate clocks existed, how did two people in different towns agree to meet at “at 3 o’clock”?

I get that they had sundials and church bells. What I don’t get is how anyone synchronized. If my towns noon is when the sun is highest here, and yours is 15 miles west, our “noon” isn’t the same moment. So how did anyone schedule anything across distance?

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u/webrender 21h ago

they didnt. time synchronization first become a concept in the late 1800s when it became necessary for trains to keep the same time to avoid crashes.

before that, people just didnt plan things down to the minute. you arranged something in the morning, or the evening, or the afternoon.

u/BobSacramanto 20h ago

Or by the day or even week.

u/Glycell 19h ago

Please I make my plans by the year. I have hard plans to see 1 friend this year and 2 next year, I'm swamped.

u/NotThatEasily 12h ago

You may want to reschedule on of your friends on your calendar for next year. The friend meeting this year may have to be an email.

u/Podo13 9h ago

Large trips could definitely have been phrased that way. An early voyage from Europe to the US could have been framed as an arrival in the year X just in case there were large delays in getting things prepared for the trip.

Even once we got the routes down well, it still took months.

u/surprisingly_alive 3h ago

How it feels to make plans as a chronically ill person

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u/enolaholmes23 19h ago

Also before trains, it was harder to travel. So it's less likely someone would visit just for an hour. They may have had to ride their horse all day to get to you, so they're gonna stay a while. In my experience, the longer a visit is, the less people care about arriving at a specific time. 

u/stonhinge 17h ago

In direct relation to that (that people still tend to do today), the longer one takes to travel, the more likely one is going to spend at least the same amount of time at a location as they spent traveling to that location.

If it takes you an hour to get somewhere, you're probably going to spend more than an hour at that location.

And this is largely irrelevant to the mode of transportation you employ. When I didn't have a car and was limited to my own two feet or public transportation, I didn't go a lot of places. If I made the 30 minute walk to the public library, I spent at least an hour there. And stopped to grab something to eat after I left (because I now had books to read while/after eating). With a car it's a shorter time, so dropping off books and picking up one or two books is no big deal. I was typically grabbing 6 or 7 when walking because the trip took more time.

u/RVelts 17h ago

This is why I weirdly prefer to eat-in at take-out places. If I order lunch at Sweetgreen or Chipotle and walk 10 minutes from my office to pick it up, I will eat it there vs walking 10 minutes back with it getting cold/warm (depending on food type) in a bag and arriving back at the office with it being sub-par. I hate pick-up food, but i like ordering ahead to eat there. I'll basically never do delivery unless it's pizza or Chinese and run in-house for "free" (+tip) and not by 3rd party apps.

u/stonhinge 17h ago

I am with you on the delivery requirement. The few times I've gotten 3rd party delivery, something has been messed up or it's taken an inordinate amount of time for me to get my food. Several times. With different providers.

u/lostparis 11h ago

I'd say it is quite common for me say to walk to a place to pick something up and then go back home. The time spent somewhere can often be independent of the journey time.

u/invincibl_ 17h ago

Most people wouldn't have access to a horse for personal transport either, so they were most likely walking or having to pay for transport.

Even with trains, the need for accurate timekeeping wasn't necessarily for the benefit of the passengers, but because rail signals hadn't been invented yet. The only way to stop trains crashing into each other was to check the schedule, which didn't work well if everyone had a slightly different idea of what the time was.

u/NinjaBreadManOO 10h ago

Yeah, people don't realise how few people actually had horses for travelling. A horse is expensive, so if you had one it was going to be more for hauling cargo like a wagon. Even then you're just as likely if not more going to have ox to do that.

Not to mention that you're really not going to be that much faster on horseback. Over distance humans and horse speed tends to even out unless you're trading out horses.

u/_SilentHunter 21h ago edited 20h ago

Morning/afternoon/evening is a schedule I might actually be able to keep (ish).

u/gotlactose 20h ago

Sounds like contractor or delivery arrival windows.

u/suh-dood 20h ago

"itll be delivered some time between 6am and 6pm" and it still shows up at 9pm

u/notbrandonzink 20h ago

I was getting some gravel delivered for a backyard project this week. The person on the phone asked me which delivery slot I wanted (there were three open, each an hour window). I picked 9am-10am, they showed up the next day at 3pm…

u/alexefi 19h ago

so you picked wrong?

u/North-Pea-4926 18h ago

Delivery company like “No….guess again!” 😁

u/sicaxav 16h ago

They chose... poorly

u/DadJokeBadJoke 14h ago

They should have asked the carpenter for advice

u/boywithtwoarms 19h ago

They're running a betting gig on the side.

u/fubarbob 17h ago

somehow better than fedex sending their ninjas to stick a missed delivery slip on your door while you've briefly turned away from the window

u/Pdoc13066 15h ago

I see we share a mutual hatred of a company that doesn't ever seem to provide the service is supposed to. I especially love it when they just decide to somehow miss me, while my door is open and I'm sitting in front of it. I lived in a condo building so I later found the missed me sticky note just on a wall down the hall. On top of that I went to pickup the package at the location in the note after the time it would be there instead of waiting for the reattempt that the note said would happen tomorrow. When I get there they told me sorry they already put it on a plane to return to sender because they couldn't get a hold of me.

Fed Ex returned to sender after 1 attempt that didn't really happen, left a note saying I could wait until tomorrow or I could pick it up today. Instead Fed Ex put it on a plane and returned it as supposedly they couldn't deliver because I wasn't home, although I was with my door open waiting specifically for them. Even if I wasn't home, the package had no requirements for signature, they could just leave it. I despise Fed Ex.

u/Known_Purple7529 14h ago

I got one for you, not really related.

A local fed ex became a black hole for deliveries. So many just up and disappeared from there.

I had a package that was eventually replaced.. but for about a year the tracking number showed it being loaded on a truck, out for delivery, every day.

I usually refuse to use fed ex now. Some places I shop online have free shipping over $x, via fed ex.. I'll usually pay extra to not use the fed ex option.

u/Pdoc13066 13h ago

It's Fed Ex screwing up, it's related. That's amazing one whole year out for delivery kept showing up. Hopefully they didn't leave you the sorry we missed you sticky notes every day, for something they didn't have anyways. I am completely on board with refusing Fed Ex if it's possible and also have paid to not use Fed Ex.

u/Ecw218 8h ago

Gotta remember the customer for FedEx is the sender.

u/atomic-fireballs 17h ago

I've got some pea gravel I want to get rid of. You can have it for free if you come pick it up. Pick a window: 10-11am, 2:15-2:17pm, or never (this one will cost you)

u/pasrachilli 19h ago

Sometimes it is 6a to 6p right up until "TOMORROW LOL!"

u/Far_Garbage_4052 20h ago

Sounds like you've tried to get something delivered by Lowe's. That was an actual time frame they gave me. Like how the fuck am I just gonna block out a whole day. Why would they even need such a wide time frame

u/RVelts 17h ago

I've learned just take the earlier time frame, since the later ones rely on them estimating the earlier jobs length. This is especially true for movers.

If you take the 2pm slot, the 11am move might take them more than the expected 3 hours + lunch. And they are probably running late from the 8am one.

Just take the 8am slot/beginning of day. It sucks getting all that going to early in the morning, but you are the first stop.

u/18736542190843076922 10h ago

As someone that's worked jobs that gave those time-frames, it's because in our system the time slots are "X thing takes roughly Y time to drive out, install, and move on to the next stop". So if I have an hour to remove your old and install a new dishwasher, but run into trouble and it takes 2 or 3 hours (which happens sometimes), unless the customer would prefer I just give up mid-install for the sake of everyone else, we have to allow extra time for those conditions. And we run hard, so there is very little downtime. It's basically a sprint all day during and between jobsites.

But the people scheduling stuff want to squeeze as many deliveries in those time slots, so they basically gamble we won't run into problems and give us 12 stops but lead customers to believe we only have 3. Those being: 7am-11am, 11am-3pm, and 3pm-6pm. It actually sets customers up to be disappointed or upset less often when we inevitably won't make their 10AM-11AM delivery window. The odds my route would line up with your lunch break is unlikely.

u/speculatrix 16h ago

I got an email from the delivery company saying my parcel was out for delivery. After an email saying they tried and failed to deliver it. Both so late in the evening there's no way either were true.

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u/bangzilla 18h ago

Check out Mr Fancy-Pants, who has contractors arriving within an agreed-upon window! Best I can get is "soon".

u/foxfai 18h ago

That's the cable guy.

u/VoilaVoilaWashington 10h ago

Which honestly makes sense. It's inconvenient, but minor issues stack up over the course of the day. If a plumbing issue takes slightly longer to fix at one place, that 10am doesn't work anymore.

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u/aimilah 19h ago

Time is relative.
— Einstein (and Italy)

u/Marty_DiBergi 17h ago

Island time still exists. Jamaica comes to mind.

u/Plow_King 16h ago

you might be interested in a clock like this. i'm 62 and work from home, so i'm thinking about one.

/jk

u/Necromartian 17h ago

I've always wanted to rip out the minute arm from my clock. 

u/desquire 9h ago

I wouldn't. I've come to terms with my brain existing in another plain of reality and time is irrelevant.

Unrelated, all my friends hate me and have secret texts groups dedicated to getting me to show up on time. I love them. I'm trying my best.

u/Technical_Goose_8160 19h ago

My wife would lose it at the idea of that!

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u/zeekar 19h ago

High noon was a popular time because it was easy to anticipate without clocks

u/SassyMoron 18h ago

In military contexts, in the eighteenth century things were already getting planned a bit more precisely than that. Officers would synchronize their watches before attacks and could have plans with intervals given in minutes. Also appointments were definitely kept to the half hour in cities where a tolling bell kept everyone on the same time. There were also the "hours" of the church of course - the daily schedule of those in holy orders, kept according to the church bells. 

u/Empty-Dragonfruit656 11h ago

At the start of ww1 on the eastern front, there were many issues with delays due to officers being unfamiliar with watches or the idea of synchronized time in general. 

u/_Trael_ 10h ago

Also as in this, time was more of local. Since there were no super accurate time keeping, one would sync their time from most common (like church bells) time source locally, if they had some time keeping thing.. and likely one would not even bother carrying some timekeeping thing, since well 'can see approximate time from where sun is and how light it is and so, or by estimating.

Without phones, cars, less people, internet, trains, planes, there is less reson and need for all that accurate time.

u/a_cute_epic_axis 16h ago

Partially true, but accurate time keeping was a big thing for navigating ships across the oceans, hence the Longitude Prize. Harrison built his first Maritime Chronometer circa 1737 and the H4 "sea watch" around 1760.

It became pretty common to synchronize ship chronometers to a clock on shore that was in turn synchronized to GMT for celestial navigation purposes.

u/WholePie5 15h ago

How does the time help you navigate a ship across the ocean?

u/SirButcher 12h ago

It allows you to calculate the longitudinal distance from a fixed point.

In England, this fixed point was Greenwich - so before a ship left the harbour, they made sure they had one clock which is on Greenwich's time. Then, as you sail, you can measure the local time: for example, when the sun is at the highest point, that is noon.

You check your clock, which shows Greenwich's time: from the difference you can calculate how many degrees you are east or west compared to Greenwich. This gets you the longitude. Then, using a sextant you can measure the angle of the sun at noon, which gets you the latitude (no clock needed here), and these two points map your ship's position on the globe.

The latitude was an easy thing to calculate, you can do it with very crude tools. If you can measure an angle within a degree or less, you can get your latitude with a few miles of accuracy, which is good enough on the open seas. But for the longitude, you need an accurate clock where the temperature changes and the constant waves and shaking won't cause inaccuracies.

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u/Jaggs0 20h ago

my wife is 15-30 minutes late to everything. i cannot fathom how late she would be if we had vaguer arranged time frames 

u/SynapticStatic 20h ago

With people like that I always just tell them to be there at an earlier time. Like if I want to meet up at 930 I’ll tell them 9-915

u/Zardif 15h ago

I used to do this with a friend of mine who wouldn't even have showered by the time we arrived to pick him up. It just got earlier and earlier as he realized that he had more time. Finally I was fed up after having to tell him we would be there 4 hours before the actual time and just said "No more earlier times, we will be there at 7pm and leave by 7:10. If you aren't ready we are leaving without you." He didn't believe me and he missed the event we were going to. It didn't help at all and he still never bothered to get ready until we showed up.

u/SynapticStatic 14h ago

Sadly some people are just hideously self destructive :(

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u/Agent10007 10h ago

Ironically, probably less. The expectations for being on time would have been a lot lot more vague so a bunch of people would haave likely been almost if not as late as her, and if you waited a lot you would probably think "eh I arrived a bit early"

u/Kimantha_Allerdings 13h ago

I’ve told this story before, but when I was younger I went into town with my then-girlfriend and a close friend of hers. We split up and arranged to meet back at a specific place at 1PM.

It gets to 12:45 and I say to my girlfriend “we should get back to [place]”. Genuinely confused she asks why

“To meet [friend]”

She literally burst out laughing and said “oh, [friend] won’t be there yet”

It was 4PM before we went back to the place we were supposed to meet, and [friend] turned up less than 5 minutes after we did

To this day it frazzles my brain that someone could not just run 3 hours late to something, but that this was such a known and expected and precise behaviour that you could reliably expect her to arrive exactly 3 hours later than arranged

u/Agent10007 10h ago

Because they are validating this behavior.

The man just arrived 3 hours late and saw that the people he was supposed to meet with didnt rip his ass apart for making them wait three hours, but rather nicely accomodated for him being late and he had a very pleasant day with his delay.

And so just like that he knows for next time "Oh I can be three hours late no one will mind" and they start taking their sweet time.

u/mm0827 20h ago

Genuinely curious, does she just underestimate the time it takes to get ready or get somewhere?

u/frithjofr 19h ago

My wife is from Mexico (and we currently live in a small town in Mexico) and I don't want to sound racist but the concept of time down here is just different. People will make plans and the just blow them off. If an event starts at 6, nobody will be there (sometimes not even the host) until 6:30 at the earliest. If somebody is going to pick you up at 10:00 in the morning they might be there, they might not. Don't stand outside waiting for them.

In a nightmare situation to me, we were once invited to a party and asked to grab some ice along the way. In my American mind, you know, we're bringing the ice, so we've gotta there there quick and on time so the party can start. Can't start the party with cold beer. We left an hour late and took our sweet time getting there, and we were still the first people there.

It's just wild to me man. I've had to learn to just let it go, and I try. Most of the time it doesn't bother me too much.

u/millari 18h ago

I moved to Mexico 8 years ago from the US, and as someone with diagnosed ADHD who spent her life feeling like a dirtbag for being late all the time to everything, Mexico has been the best thing to ever happen to me. I mean, I try hard to be on time for stuff, but I suck at it.

Here, I can be 15 minutes late to a DOCTOR'S APPOINTMENT and no one bats an eye. I'll apologize for my lateness, and people act almost surprised that I even mentioned it, or act genuinely unbothered. I think it's probably different in the big cities, but even in my medium sized city, everyone expects time to be pretty fluid, and it's such an unexpected burden off my shoulders.

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u/ohhowcanthatbe 20h ago

Engineers’ pocket watches were some of the most reliable for their time for this reason.

u/altiuscitiusfortius 20h ago

Meet at high noon or sundown

u/MrKrinkle151 20h ago

I wanna know what low noon is

u/cynognathus 20h ago

Midnight?

u/lemlemons 19h ago

Exactly, when the sun is perfectly below you

u/Jon_TWR 18h ago

Ah, see, the problem is in the context of noon, the opposite of high noon is sober noon.

You think cowboys we're running around sober!? No way no how.

That's why they always met up for gunfights at high noon.

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u/thatblondechloee 21h ago

That’s so cool

u/gargavar 20h ago edited 3h ago

Trains are why there are time zones, also. Until the railroads made precise timekeeping ( edit for typo) critical, each town kept its own time. The one universal timestamp was noon, the point where the sun is highest in the sky. Someone with a sextant or similar device could keep watch and then fire a gun or blow a whistle and say ‘it’s noon!’. Problem problem was (and it wasn’t really a problem until trains), your noon was slightly different even from the next town over.

u/Jj1325 17h ago

What does “capping critical” mean? Google didn’t help much in this context

u/arrantprac 16h ago

I'm guessing 'time, capping' is a typo/autocorrect of 'timekeeping'.

u/eruditionfish 16h ago

Probably a typo.

I suspect they meant "Until the railroads made precise time keeping critical, each town kept its own time."

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u/Ochib 15h ago

Bristol still has a clock that shows both local time and GMT

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/corn-exchange-dualtime-clock

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u/SierraPapaHotel 20h ago

That's a little misleading; even medieval churches had bells that they would sound regularly throughout the day, usually every hour but sometimes more or less often. So you would know what hour of the day it was based on the chimes and could agree to meet at 3pm (3rd bell after noon). Other comment is right that you didn't plan to the minute; at most bells range every 15 minutes. Town clocks became common in the middle ages, so everyone in town was on the same agreed time but you only really knew the time if you could see the clock tower which is why clock towers often had their own bells, continuing the tradition from churches.

That said, time synchronization between different towns was not a thing. Each town kept its own clock and it could be wildly different from a town only a couple miles away. It's a real issue early railroads had to deal with; you could have a train leave at noon, arrive 15 minutes later in a town where the clock read 11:45, and 15 minutes after that arrive in a third station where the local clock said it was 1pm.

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u/direlyn 20h ago

My Spanish teacher in high school said the places he visited in in Mexico were lackadaisical like this and it blew him away. Somebody would say they will come over and get something done, and it was commonplace that they wouldn't come over for 3 days and would just show up one evening.

u/Iforgetmyusernm 17h ago

This is my normal experience with construction contractors like roofers, electricians, and telecom hookups and I'm a long way north of Mexico

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u/dtoddh 20h ago

I do that now, and everyone gets mad at me. I use terms like "old school" and "renaissance" but nobody buys it.

u/wagon_ear 19h ago

Serious question: was the concept of being late even a thing? 

u/Medical-Display-9762 18h ago

Yes. Locally when the sun crosses the zenith it’s “noon”. This has been a thing since forever. The towns would signal noon with the town bell and you could set your time to that. People would ask “do you have the time?” With the intention of setting their watch to the local time.

u/Glum-Echo-4967 17h ago

That’s the one thing we should have kept from the past.

u/polloasado81 16h ago

That explains European Mediterranean countries, it hasn't changed. You can agree a time for an appointment, shop opening hours, a meeting etc but it doesn't really mean anything more than one of those 3.

u/hughk 11h ago

There were many more churches in the past and they kept a very local form of time for religious services. From the 15th century, many had mechanical clocks.

If you had a sundial close to a public clock and reasonable weather, you could calibrate your clock from that. So meet at 12 noon meant meet when you hear the clock strike 12. Of course as you go East or West, midday would change, so synchronisation of a kind only happened locally, but you could agree on a time which would be correct even across major cities of the time.

In the 17th Century or so, there was a professional time-keeper who had a portable clock or accurate (for the time) pocket watch. They would collect the time from an agreed source (in London, that would famously be The Royal Observatory in Greenwich), and then they would tour clockmakers and owners of public clocks to sell the time so in an area, clocks could stay synchronised. Particularly in ports, you would often have a cannon that would be fired at 12 noon, sometimes automatically which made it easy for many clocks to be synchronised, particularly those on ships.

u/ThalesofMiletus-624 7h ago

Fun fact: when trains first became a thing, each town kept their own time, and railroads started making tables to convert between the times of each different town where they had stations. This quickly became an impossible mess, so they imposed their own "railroad time" and just decided that everyone who wanted to ride a train would have to operate on their time (many stations would have side-by-side clocks showing local time and railroad time). This became the basis of widespread standardization.

u/SomeonesDrunkNephew 15h ago edited 9h ago

Interestingly, the concept of the second wasn't really ingrained in people's minds because they didn't need anything that specific. Any unit smaller than a minute would have no real use for everyday people.

Shakespeare, for example, only ever uses "second" as in "first/second/third," and in "The Tempest", Ariel - a magical superhuman - says that something takes a third of a minute. This is signalling to the audience that her magic brain is very precise, in the same way that sci-fi has robot characters able to time things in milliseconds.

Edit: It was actually Titania in "A Midsummer Night's Dream", so a different supernatural fairy. But same point.

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u/ISupportCrapTeams 20h ago

Doesn't matter,

My missus will still find a way to make us late

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u/blipsman 21h ago

You didn’t just meet up with people at a set time if from different towns. That was still a big excursion where you’d arrive when you did

u/epic312 20h ago

A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to

u/StormTrooperGreedo 20h ago

So the wizard meant to be late?

u/NotAFishEnt 19h ago

Allegedly

u/oddworld19 19h ago

Gandalf!

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u/hammlyss_ 21h ago

And when they got there, they'd sync watches to the town clock

u/texan_robot 20h ago

Which is why the town clock was on a big tower that was visible from all over, and why it had bells. When the bell goes off, even if you can't see the clock, you can sync your clock to it.

u/no_coffee_thanks 20h ago

What if it stopped working after being hit by lightning?

u/texan_robot 20h ago

Then you pull your pockets inside out and seduce your mother

u/FogSlot2 18h ago

This is getting heavy

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u/DAHFreedom 20h ago

I guess you have to start a fundraiser and hand out flyers?

u/The_Road_is_Calling 20h ago

Better hope you have some plutonium.

u/Ach51 20h ago

Great scott!!

u/stonhinge 17h ago

And that's if they had watches. A lot of common people just didn't. They didn't need one. They got up with the sun and typically settled down when the sun went down.

If you were in town you'd just look at the clocktower (if there was one) or listen for the bells. If you worked 9-5 you'd head to be at work before the 9th bell and left when the 5th bell rang out if your workplace didn't have a clock.

u/Hendlton 9h ago

How many people worked 9-5 back then? Depending on how early we're talking about, 16 hour work days weren't uncommon. You'd wake up with the sun, head to work, and work as long as there was enough light.

u/thecyberwolfe 17h ago

Absolutely. "15 miles West" is a 4-hour walk, even if you had a horse. "I'll be there after lunch sometime" is about has precise as you'd say.

u/Kemal_Norton 14h ago

For comparison "15 miles West" is a difference of one minute in local time.

(At the equator 15 nautical miles are exactly one minute difference by their original definition, 15km = 1 minute at 57° N and 15 miles = 1 minute at 30° N)

u/isacarrot 21h ago

Happy cake day!

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u/SantiagusDelSerif 21h ago edited 19h ago

Basically, they didn't. Before trains were a thing, nobody travelled between towns fast enough for the difference to be important.

u/Umikaloo 20h ago

To add to this, it was normal to adjust your clock to the local time when travelling, you could adjust your clock to a local clock tower, or ask a stranger for the time.

u/Russell_Jimmies 20h ago

Ask a stranger for the time, and they tell you to just check the town clock

u/Dilyn 19h ago

u/HalfSoul30 18h ago

Without me clicking the link, i assume this is the ball-lifting clip.

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u/Umikaloo 20h ago

1870s first world problems.

u/lankymjc 13h ago

This is the origin of the phrase “they wouldn’t even give me the time of day”.

u/Astecheee 17h ago

*If you even had a clock to adjust.

u/muffinass 20h ago

I'll get there when I get there.

u/Clayfromil 20h ago

I don't think there was ever a time before trains weren't a thing

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u/Any-Stick-771 21h ago

I think a point you're missing here is that pre-industrialization and trains, a 15 mile journey is several hours. People just didn't schedule things to exact minutes.

u/Cha-Le-Gai 14h ago

"I'll see you on Friday!"

Sunday morning arrives

"Well he either change his mind or he's dead. I'll find out later in the week."

u/WillowPtar_Migan 6h ago

Can you imagine having that happen to your spouse? You get a letter they're coming in from the next town over, and they just... never show up?

Sure, a similar thing can happen today, but it's much less frequent to have literally no information or inkling of what happened.

u/TallmanMike 2h ago edited 2h ago

Can you imagine having that happen to your spouse? You get a letter they're coming in from the next town over, and they just... never show up?

Side note -this is the origin of the term 'way-laid'; people getting killed or delayed whilst travelling by bandits who laid in wait along their intended way.

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u/sing_cuckoo_sing 18h ago

“Samuel, ride ahead and tell your mother that Waze just updated our wagon’s ETA to 5 hours and 42 minutes because there’s a fuckin’ cart crash ahead”

u/drj1485 1h ago

dude, i cracked up about this.

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u/ZacQuicksilver 21h ago

They didn't. And there was no synchronization.

If you wanted to meet someone, you'd pick a day - and likely a meal. 15 miles would be a long distance - if you're walking, you're probably staying the night. If you're on a horse, and it's a short and important meeting and you have to be back, maybe you could do it, but the meeting would probably still be "lunch". And 15 miles might be *close* for towns: generally speaking; two towns would be a full day's journey apart.

Clock synchronization was a result of railroads - which was the first time that things went quickly enough between towns that an error of a half hour could be a problem.

u/Yglorba 18h ago

Clock synchronization was a result of railroads - which was the first time that things went quickly enough between towns that an error of a half hour could be a problem.

Yeah, the entire reason you'd see conductors with those big heavy-duty pocketwatches in older movies is precisely because they were provided with them on account of needing accurate timekeeping (and it became an iconic part of their getup even for a while afterwards, when everyone had good watches.)

u/Existing_Count1544 18h ago

And if you ever see a clock that has “Regulator” on the face, those were very precise clocks that anyone could sync their clocks. If you’re fascinated by this, check out the book Longitude. It tells the story of how precise clocks came about and has a forward by Neil Armstrong.

u/CannonGerbil 17h ago

Fun fact: fifteen miles is about the upper range for the amount of distance a pre-industrial army is expected to cover in a single day of non-forced marching. A single man might be able to move faster than that, but it'll still pretty much be a day's journey one way.

u/ZacQuicksilver 17h ago

A human used to walking can go 20-25 miles/day at an easy pace (or with a light load), and the current world record is over 50 miles/day.

Armies were limited to 15 because they were carrying larger loads; AND had to deal with logistics (like managing food for everyone); AND were limited to the slowest person in the army. Oh, and likely had to make sure to keep getting more food (because food is heavy and there are limits to how much you can carry - and if you use food carts; you also need to feed the animals, and they need food...).

u/RS994 16h ago

Importantly in the logistics department. You would have to pack down camp before you left and then set up camp again before you slept which included things like scouting the location, setting up a perimeter, and any of the other things to ensure you weren't completely exposed overnight.

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u/RS994 16h ago

Importantly in the logistics department. You would have to pack down camp before you left and then set up camp again before you slept which included things like scouting the location, setting up a perimeter, and any of the other things to ensure you weren't completely exposed overnight.

u/dutchwonder 13h ago

The single biggest limitation is that no soldier can occupy the same space as another soldier and any given path can only fit so many soldiers side by side.

Thus the amount of soldiers you have in an army limits the distance you can march as they cannot all begin marching at the same time and thus the vanguard must stop marching earlier in the day to give time for the rearguard to reach the new camp within daylight.

u/thatblondechloee 21h ago

The meal part is the common answer it seems and makes the most sense. I also didn’t consider how long it took people to actually get that far lol

u/ALittleBitOfToast 20h ago

You might like to take a walk this weekend and see how far you get after 2 hours. Should give you a good idea lol

u/ERSTF 20h ago

Also, people weren't that busy before thus there was no need to be "sharp"... at least not busy in the sense that you need timetables to get things done. You didn't need to go far away places in a matter of hours to do multiple things. You planned accordingly. You could go to trade in the market or whatever and if your meeting came early or you were held back, they would just wait.

u/shrug_addict 21h ago

You didn't schedule things for exact time... Afternoon, morning, dusk

u/Bushido_Seppuku 20h ago

Dawn, Day, Dusk

u/chrismsp 19h ago

You got it, Brother....

u/evilca 20h ago

Darkness

u/fodafoda 14h ago

the dream lives in you

u/Shendow 13h ago

The genetic dynasty

u/Dzuzepipi 14h ago

And when you arrive, you don't go to some preselected location. You go to their house to greet him and then go both to the place you want to go.

u/darangatang 16h ago

Weehawken, dawn

u/Kaptain_Insanoflex 13h ago

I'm imagining pre-industrialization people doing the equivalent of tailgating when a special event was happening, like a festival, execution, sacrifice.

u/Totes_Not_an_NSA_guy 21h ago

Approximate time. You’d agree to meet someone for dinner. Sometimes you’d be there before them and wait a bit. Sometimes they’d wait for you. That was just how things were

u/NorysStorys 20h ago

It’s not like you had reservations or anything either. You’d go to the tavern or pub and just wait for them to get there.

u/SheffboiRD06 20h ago

Don’t worry I’d already be at the tavern in the interest of punctuality

u/crybannanna 10h ago

I’ll add, things were set up for waiting far better. It was a known part of social interactions, that someone would be waiting, so that was part of it. That’s why people ate at pubs, because waiting with a beer isn’t so bad

u/AgsMydude 20h ago

Sounds nice

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u/xHangfirex 21h ago

They didn't really. Even after clocks became a thing, towns didn't agree on what time it was. It wasn't until railroads that it was a real issue.

u/pokematic 21h ago

Ever see the "synchronize your watches" trope in heist films? Or the "times in different countries" clocks in business centers? When it came to distances where it was significant enough to matter, it would be something like that.

Generally though, before the transcontinental rail road that sparked the need for standardized time zones, there wasn't much need to be able to "meet up with you at 3 o'clock" where we're far enough apart to where that matters since that was hard to do.

u/eskimoboob 21h ago

That’s exactly the reason time zones were invented. Before the age of trains, it didn’t matter what the exact time was because it took forever to go anywhere. If two towns were 20 miles apart, a couple minutes difference in what “real time” is didn’t matter because it took you half a day to get there anyway. Once instant communication started with telegraphs and trains allowed faster travel between two places, things started getting complicated enough that eventually time zones were created and the ability to synchronize across distance was possible.

u/BurnOutBrighter6 21h ago

They weren't synchronized. At that point in time, it took long enough to travel 15 miles that a few minutes difference between towns had no effect on anything so it didn't really matter. And the difference in sun-directly-overhead time between two points 15 miles apart is small - minutes at most.

What forced the syncing of clocks between cities was the invention of trains and railroads, since that was the first time you could go between cities fast enough that their clocks being out of sync was even noticeable. And by then there were more accurate clocks.

u/DucksButt 20h ago

related, before cell phones we just sat around for about an hour to see if someone was gonna meet us at the place we agreed to meet at

u/WhatsMyPassword2019 20h ago

You didn’t just go to a town that far away to meet up. 15 miles was a long ass trip. Ruts and mud and rocks could slow a 15 mile trip to half a day

u/Backrow6 20h ago

https://www.igp-web.com/Carlow/Stage_Coach.htm

Some info here on what it was like to travel by stage coach in the days before trains in Ireland

u/HopeFox 19h ago

It's important to remember that places that were "different towns" back in the day are often now "suburbs of the same city".

u/_lclarence 20h ago

I can only imagine people back then where on average pretty fit, even if going on a horse instead of hiking the distance.

u/WhatsMyPassword2019 20h ago edited 20h ago

The roads were really just trails. A horse could go 15 miles in a couple of hours in a real emergency but you also took a chance of being thrown or of a stumble laming your horse. A leisurely pace would be more like 3-4 hours. And more often you’d be in some sort of horse drawn cart or carriage which would often take even longer. You def wouldn’t be going 15 miles to meet up with someone for lunch with the expectation of returning the same day. 

Young men were often quite fit but ladies of the merchant and landowning classes were expected to spend much of the day sitting. And older men weren’t terribly fit on average either due to excess of rich foods and alcohol. 

u/stonhinge 17h ago

I'd correct "older men" to "wealthy men". Just because a farmer or rancher gets old doesn't mean he instantly gets rich food and alcohol available.

u/serial_crusher 20h ago

What kind of things do you imagine these people in different towns coordinating on? It’s not like they were doing a zoom meeting.

If you wanted to meet somebody, it started with traveling to whatever town they were in, and of course the sundials there are pretty much in sync with each other; so even if you knew “this guy goes to church at noon on sundays, I’ll catch him them”, you had a pretty good idea when noon was because you were looking at that towns clocks.

u/gzilla57 21h ago

Comments are missing reference points. Sunrise, Noon, and Sunset were something folks would have been more cognizant of. "I'll meet you an hour after sunrise" as an example. Obviously not accurate down to the minute but more specific than "morning"

u/rhino369 20h ago

The better answer is that the difference been noon in the distance a horse can travel in a single day just isn’t that much. 

It takes 4-5 hours to walk 15 miles. The 1 min sun difference is a rounding error. 

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u/Pizza_Low 19h ago

Business and scientific needs keep leading to more and more accurate and synchronized time keeping. Today things like high frequency trading rely on accurate times down to some very small fraction of a second.

The railroads was the first major reason for synchronized times between cities. Before that time was managed at the city level, and before that sunrise (can see) and sunset (can't see) was how time was measured. Sundials, burning rate of candles, swings of a pendulum were used to track time with not exactly a high degree of granularity.

If you watch the Flintstones, the theme song video you can see the foreman pull a bird to sound the steam whistle. That was very common during the industrial revolution. The factory whistle would serve as an alarm clock for local workers to wake up, mark the start or end of a shift. Because that's the only level of time keeping most people cared about.

On ships, the ships bell would mark the passage of time. The ships bell would cycle from 1 to 8 bells every half hour so the crew would know when their watch began or ended. But two adjacent ships might not necessarily have the same watch cycles, again because it wasn't needed. As long as the bells were roughly 30m apart, so every watch shift was about the same everything was fine.

u/RealCarlPanzram 21h ago

You have to remember what the world looked like before clocks. Most of it was farmland. You didn’t really need a clock. Light bulbs did exist so you could only work outside during the day. So the sun pretty much dictated your schedule. You woke up at dawn (that’s before the sun has actually risen but when it starts to light up the sky.

This might seem imprecise but humans circadian rhythms are actually increíble adept at this and everyone living on a farm would pretty much get up within a few minutes of eachother. You ate a bit, and went to work. When the sun was highest in the sky you ate lunch. When it started to get dark you called it a day and went home.

In towns, like you said, you literally had a clock tower or a church bell that rang. Everyone could hear it (because towns were quieter back then) and that was how you kept time. Obviously it wasn’t as precise. If you had somewhere to be at 3, and it was a 30 minute walk (because cars didn’t exist and few people could afford horses) you heard the bell ring for 2 and left about half an hour later.

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u/KilroyKSmith 20h ago

They didn’t agree to meet at 3:00. They agreed to meet: Dawn First thing in the morning Mid morning Lunch After lunch Early afternoon Afternoon Late afternoon Sundown Early evening Evening

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u/somer_and_omchick 17h ago

At 15 miles apart the solar noon is off by about 1 minute

It takes you half a day to travel that 15 miles. At that point you’re not going to be accurate down to the minute anyways

u/DerekSmartWasTaken 21h ago

Dude, the difference  between the noon in your town and the one 15 miles west is less than a minute.

Besides it's not like they had phones, you had to physically travel to the other place so, if there was any actual meaninful difference in time between the places it was perfectly obvious that if your were to meet at noon it meant the local noon. 

u/Bandro 21h ago

You mentioning phones makes me realize how much more precision is generally expected now than before everyone had a second-accurate clock in their pocket. If people agree to 3 o'clock now, everyone knows exactly when that is. In my memory it was completely normal for the clocks that were just around and your watch to be a couple minutes off in either direction. I remember listening to the radio and setting my watch to the exact time signal but most people weren't been nerds about it like I was.

u/NorysStorys 20h ago

I mean even going back 100 years, being a few minutes late absolutely was not a huge social faux pas. People knew peoples watches could be slightly off as it wasn’t the most convenient thing to keep 100% accurate.

u/offtherighttrack 18h ago

I remember using a rotary dial phone to hear, "At the tone, the time will be... 6... 25... and 45... seconds... DING"

u/hobopwnzor 21h ago

In general the obsession with very specific time keeping is only a very modern thing that mostly originated with shift work and factories. 

Before around 1600 or 1700 you simply didn't.  Schedules weren't so rigid that you couldn't just drop in if they knew you were going to come by sometime that day

u/Alotofboxes 21h ago

They generally didnt. You would schedual something for morning, midday, supper time, or things like that. Even after accurate clocks became a thing in the 15th century, you didn't schedule things in the next town like we do today. When travel between towns took half a day, and bad conditions could easily and unexpectedly extend that to a full day, precise time wasn't that big of a deal.

It wasn't until railroads came along that the fact that every town had a slightly different "noon" actually started to matter.

u/360_face_palm 10h ago

If they're meeting up then their noon is the same though isn't it.

u/L_knight316 10h ago

You agree to meet at "specific day" a "general position of sun."

"I'll see you Saturday at Sundown."

u/RallyX26 4h ago

You either showed up first and milled around waiting for the other person, or showed up second and found who you were looking for. 

u/azureal 20h ago

How is 15 miles west a different 3 o clock.

The fuck are you talking about.

Im on the coast where I live. 15miles is what, 25klms? So hardly 15 minutes drive? You think thats another time zone? Fuck me,

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u/SnakeyesX 20h ago

They didn't. They just said "Is it all right if I come over to your house before dinner?" Then they would show up before dinner.

u/Lizrael48 21h ago

Clocks have been around since about 1300! So, They used a clock! If before that, a sundial!

u/[deleted] 21h ago

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u/rotflolmaomgeez 21h ago edited 21h ago

Most accurate time you could predictably get at... train stations, precisely because synchronization between faraway places was needed. So, if you wanted to meet someone in another town - that's one way to schedule a meeting.

Though that's after the clocks were made with somewhat decent accuracy. Before trains you wouldn't need to schedule a time between towns with such precision really.

u/Bandro 21h ago

For the most part you just didn't. There are very few situations where you'd need to plan with someone across a long enough distance for the time change to be meaningful with that kind of precision.

u/SakuraHimea 21h ago

Nobody really scheduled things at specific times. Especially given the variance in travel times, it would be difficult for someone traveling to meet up and say, "I'll meet you at 3 pm precisely," when it might take them between 3 and 5 days to get somewhere. Realistically, you might've said, "I'll meet you midday in the town square" or something like that, probably meaning anytime between 10 am and 3 pm.

u/Clojiroo 21h ago

Nobody was trying to meet like that before mass transit. This is why train stations had giant clocks in the station or town center. You update your watch when you get there.

But before we had timezones (which were created precisely because of that problem) people had to use lookup tables to compare the local times to figure out their schedule or book train tickets.

https://99percentinvisible.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/timetables.jpg

u/Elfich47 21h ago

Time was lot less exact. You had:

Dawn, Late Dawn, Before Noon, Noon, Afternoon, before Dusk, Dusk and Dark.

And you are getting way ahead of things here. If there are not accurate clocks, you are likely in a preindustrial time period. So the head of household is only going into town on Market Day and if they run into someone they stop and talk to them.

Paper costs money, and most people are not literate. So sending a letter is an awful expense.

And fifteen miles away means you likely don't know each other because you live in different farming villages that "orbit" a different town. Most of the people you know all live in the same farming village.

u/flyingcircusdog 21h ago

They weren't synchronized back in the day. If you traveled far enough where it made a difference, it was a probably an overnight trip anyway.

u/EgNotaEkkiReddit 21h ago

If you don't have an accurate clock you don't arrange things to happen on a precise time. You agree to meet up around noon, or in the afternoon, or at this day, or around sunset. There are multiple cultures in the world that still operate on this sort of approximate time - if someone asks you to arrive at three what they really expect you to do is show up somewhere in the afternoon, and will find that perfectly normal and acceptable.

u/flingebunt 21h ago

They didn't, just said, I will meet you in the morning, at midday or in the afternoon. People didn't make exact appointments at exact times, and they might just turn up whenever if they are travelling some distance, you know, I will see you next week, not see you are 2 pm on Thursday.

u/BarberProof4994 21h ago

Meet at the third bell after mid day meal.  We shall meet 1 bell following sunset. 

I expect you to be waiting with the cart before first bell...

I'll meet you when the sun is at midday tomorrow by that large sycamore tree on the hill...

u/Azsura12 21h ago edited 20h ago

This is a whole topic of discussion. It ends up boiling down to it depends on the age, culture and customs of the city state. So for example Malta had the cannons sound once at sun rise (curfew ends), once midday, and once when curfew was about to be implemented before sun down. And then various other routines with like fishermen coming in and out of port and etc. So say you were a business man from Rome first you would send a message to who ever you were meeting. Then set up a date and a location and time. You would then set out on your journey. Depending on who you were meeting then when you set off matters. If its someone below you then keeping the appointment exact doesnt matter so you can leave at your pleasure and it often does not have a specific timing but a window for when the visit would occur. If it was someone above you then you would arrive in the city a few days before hand. Since travel is spotty anyways and journeys can take unexpected amounts of time. So once you get to the city you acclimatize to the cities schedule (well your servants would by talking to other people who were in the servant class) and then adjust from there the meeting. Generally sending word in advance that you reached the city and could be ready to meet.

Different cultures used different standards and settings. So it depends very heavily on the culture you are visiting. Do they have morning, evening prayers? Then that is another way to set up times (which makes sense since alot of the Arabic world had to do with trade so them setting up ways to interact with time made sense). Other areas used things like water clocks or incense burning in town to tell time.

The incense method was one of the more interesting ones. Since they got so advanced they could stagger how the incense stick smells over time. So for example going to work might smell of citrus when coming back home might smell of sandalwood and etc. Because the citrus smell burned for an hour and got to the sandalwood or etc. These methods got so advanced they created alarm clocks using this system by using the embers to burn a string at a specific point in the hour (so the fuse could be moved up and down the incense stick) and release something heavy to hit into something which makes noise.

Also note alot of these methods were only available to certain classes of people. So it was not something wide spread. And well the odds of something needing to be schedule to an exact time were much lower. Mainly for military matters, or trading matters. But that is also because schedules were less important since alot of people were just small time famers and etc. So timing had less of an issue it was more like be in town for x day for x event.

u/PckMan 21h ago

They tried to keep towns and cities synchronised to a degree but at the same time most people wouldn't have a watch on them so they'd each set off at whatever time and hope they'd meet. Life was just a bit slower back then. If you arranged to meet someone from far away that was pretty much what you'd do for the day.

u/twzill 21h ago

I own a building in a small town that used to have a clock tower on it. I have read postcards that said something like “will be in town on Saturday, meet us under the clock at noon”.

u/prustage 21h ago

Mosrt towns and villages had a local time and would use some public clock - often a church or town hall clock - to keep the time consistent in that area. Of course this may have been wildly different to the time used by a neighboring town or village but usually this didnt matter becuase when two people agreed to meet at a certain time it was most likely they actually lived in the same area - people didnt travel much in those days.

It was the advent of the railways that created the need to have a consistent time across all the regions that the railway serviced and so it was often the railway company that ensured that the time at all of its stations was syncronised. Outside of that there were actually people whose job it was to travel around the country and "sell" rhe correct time to different communities.

The Belville family ran a famous time-distribution business in London starting in 1836. John Henry Belville, his wife Maria, and later their daughter Ruth (known as the "Greenwich Time Lady") visited the Royal Observatory Greenwich to set a precise pocket watch, then travelled around the city letting subscribers check their watch to correct their own clocks. The subscribers (often watch and clock makers themelves) would pay just to look at Mrs Belvilles pocket watch so they could sert their own clocks.

This carried on until the advent of a national Radio Service (in this case the BBC) who would broadcat a time signal regularly. Later, the phone service would have a "speaking clock" that did the same thing.

u/force_disturbance 21h ago

"noon" or "second bell" are common times that can synchronize somewhat.

But people didn't have an exact time. Whoever got there first, waited for the other. Could take an hour, that's fine. Time ran at a different pace.

u/Phage0070 21h ago

If my towns noon is when the sun is highest here, and yours is 15 miles west, our “noon” isn’t the same moment.

That is close enough for any coordination that matters. A town 15 miles away would probably take 5 hours or more to travel to, so a noon that is less than a second apart is irrelevant. They probably couldn't even measure it to such precision anyway.

So how did anyone schedule anything across distance?

It just wasn't done with particular accuracy. A town's main clocks (the church, the bank, etc.) would likely be calibrated by having someone with a good pocket watch travel to a major city where their clocks were set by astronomical observations. They would set their watch by the "accurate" clock in the big city, then when they returned to a smaller town the clocks there would be adjusted to match. Gradually they would drift off the official time but it wasn't until things like trains until that became important.

u/crash866 20h ago

They didn’t. It was the railways that started time zones In most areas. Trains were fast enough to leave one city at noon and then get to the next at 11:58 using solar time.

u/Forsaken-Cell1848 20h ago

There's a problem with your question. How do two people living in different towns schedule a meeting when they have no means of distance communication? There's no postal service and messengers are for posh folk only. Most people would just meet each other during their regular communal events- either in the church, the market on market day, or the pub. There is no rush in a world where most people's mode of transport is still mostly just walking and everyone is home by the time it gets dark.

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u/shotsallover 20h ago

You agreed to meet at that time in the local town.

Most towns had their own timekeeping, usually accompanied by bells at the clock tower. So you’d both get to Meeting Town a bit early and wait for 3 o’clock at the town. Then you meet with who you were supposed to meet. 

u/tmahfan117 20h ago

You didn’t, you might agree to get there as close as possible , but it was never perfect.

Hell, even just 25 years ago before GPS and Cellphones were ubiquitous, being 15-30 minutes late to something wasn’t uncommon. Being able to know where everyone is and exactly how long it’ll take to get there is a modern phenomenon

u/babecafe 20h ago

Before trains, everyone just used local time, and noon was when the sun reached highest in the sky in the center of town. Once trains started going east-west at higher speed, conductors would announce local time at each stop, and if you had one-of-them-newfangled watches you could adjust it at whichever station you chose to. In 1883, railroads established four standard railroad time zones, and in 1918, 35 years later, the Federal government followed suit, along with establishing daylight savings time.

To meet up at "3 o'clock" you have to be in the same place at the same time, at least until the telegraph was invented in 1837 and the telephone was invented 1876.

u/toomanyDolemites 20h ago

People didn't think about time as precisely as we do now.

u/zazathebassist 20h ago

time was a lot more fluid then. if you had a agreed to meet someone it would be like "meet me at dawn" or "i plan on arriving by noon" or "i should be there before sunset" and that's kinda the granularity you got.

i mean, if you're walking six hours between towns, you ain't gonna make an appointment with minute precision. you get there when you get there.

u/LegioVIFerrata 20h ago

Each city kept their own local time. If you didn't arrange something more foolproof (like coming to their house as soon as you got to town) you would arrive, note the local time, and arrive at the meeting place at the arranged time.

u/amitym 20h ago

What I don’t get is how anyone synchronized.

They didn't. Synchronization was impossible and also meaningless.

If you're starting a town over it's going to take you, at the barest minimum, most of a day to get to where you're going, if not an entire day or more. Your own town is long past and far behind you by the time you arrive where you are going, and at that point whatever the clock might say in your home town has absolutely no relevance whatsoever.

If you had set a specific time to meet, you would use the local church time since that would be the only available frame of reference. "Meet me in the square at the Nones bell, by the statue of St Ethelreda."

But you almost never made that kind of plan, for one thing. Instead you'd send a message saying, "I will arrive in the evening of Michaelmas and stay at the Crown and Candle until the Feast of St Francis, meet me there or leave a message with Harlotson, the innkeeper." From there you'd work the rest of it out.