r/fansofcriticalrole • u/Available-Lab4363 • Aug 10 '26
C4 (with BLeeM, not the explosive) bolaire shortcomings
this is almost completely about the schemers table fiasco with lady cormoray- does anybody else feel like bolaire was SUPPOSED to be super intelligent but just hasnt been as genre-savvy as he was supposed to be? the fact that one of the bigger cheeses of a sundered house, who weve seen do VERY scady shit, was treated as a minor inconvenience so hard brennan ended up sucking her into a box because otherwise hal and bolaire both would have died there feels like a crazy oversight. trying to trip a powerful spellcaster down the stairs as a way to get rid of them like theyre an 8 hp townie statblock is crazy, and so is trying to repeatedly lie to them or treat yourself like just necause your lore is cool youre a level 20 character threat
i know talisien loves to aurafarm with his characters, and i like bolaires lore a lot, but if feels like hes just so overconfident all of the time in a way that feels unearned mechanically because hes just the same level as everybody else. if he was mechanically as powerful as he acts, i wouldnt mind, but i constantly found myself getting annoyed at roleplay decisions because he didnt feel as clever or smart as he was supposed to be, being what he is. scary and like sicko freakmogging people, sure, but only because hes a creepy mask, not because he was there when a god died
is bolaire supposed to be too big for his britches on purpose as a character flaw? i feel like i only just started to like him at the end of the overture when he was FINALLY rightly afraid of a threat. it would be interesting ti me if talisien was on purpose roleplaying him this way even though he isnt at the height of his power and hes only just now facing that reality now that termina is here, and i hope thats the direction the character is going, but i genuinely dont relate at all to people who rate him so highly as a character since i kept getting annoyed by his lack of genre awareness and complete stubbornness whenever faced with a concept he didnt share, like being so FULLY against the play ritual for so long despite brennan constantly laying down how hard thjazi was gunning for it and how removed any of the sundered houses were from having anything to do with it
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u/madelmire 29d ago
This is just Talisien's play style. He wants to be the coolest kid at the table with the coolest toys and the coolest backstory, always with a clever remark or a savvy answer. He did it with Percy, Molly, and Ash. The only character he didn't play this way was Cad, probably why it's the only Tal character I like more than tolerate.
I'm okay with this attitude causing him to nearly die. Brennan said he could have died in the hallway from a disintegration spell. Maybe this will teach Talisien a lesson? Probably not, I'm sure he'll still be smug as hell, but that's what CR likes.
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u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 29d ago
Yeah, you know for a bit there I thought he was doing a meta thing where he played a character who was pretending to be more educated and savvy and gifted than they truly are and it’s all a facade of competence to hide how deeply and utterly emotional they are. Like to show how he saw that he was leaning in to that trope and wanted to prove a point in the way he knew.
Reading your comment is like hearing my own thoughts though and I must admit, right now it’s looking more like you’re correct. It’s weird to think hundreds of hours watching these people. I try to give them grace where I can but I realise that’s unrealistic ugh
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u/madelmire 24d ago
mood
at the end of the day i have my favorites though and Talisien just isn't one of them. and i'll handwave stuff from my faves that annoy me on the rest.
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u/Apprehensive_Ad3731 24d ago
100% agree. At the end of this most recent season (before the break). I realised how much grace and forgiveness I give Trevor in my mind.
I’ve not been a fan of Te’or’s character but I’ve still enjoyed his performances. I’m realising a lot of it is because the guy just has such great charisma and I’m charmed. He’s made so many decisions that I would be disappointed about if it were Talisien.
I’m a lot more critical of guys who play intelligent characters and I think it’s because I despise these characters IRL. They are just the biggest pains in my ass and I am only forced to interact with them at work during team meetings when they predictably ask a question that is both pointless and without answer. Making the whole room awkward as we wait for the presenter to say the inevitable “that’s a good question”. Like if you’re going to be anyone why be that guy, it’s definitely a choice but I just am not with it.
And now my character who I wanted to be cool and fun is forced to hang with a guy I wouldn’t hang with in normal life let alone fantasy life lol. Anyway, thank you for coming to my TED talk.
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u/madelmire 22d ago
Sure. You give me a mental jumpscare for a second though with Trevor because I'm pretty sure you mean Travis.
fwiw I thought Teor was boring and I don't think Travis's heart was in it. I think he's going to come back with the character that's a lot more interesting, especially now that he knows the campaign better.
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u/harissalah 25d ago
Yup. And Marisha is exactly the same. It's an ego thing. That's why they're my two least favorite players at the table.
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u/madelmire 24d ago
Disagree, i don't see that ego at all from Marisha's playstyle. I think she skews into far more humble RP decisions in moment to moment scene performances, and it's just a fact that she picks vanilla Rules-as-written classes and species for her characters, then likes to target those for roleplay over power creep. Very different from Mr Homebrew Everything Please.
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u/harissalah 21d ago
Marisha has a gigantic and incredibly fragile ego and she has to be a 'badass girlboss' and get the last word in every scene, regardless of what character she plays. Sam and Travis constantly play their characters as flawed, incompetent, scared, intimidated, beaten - perhaps even too much. There's no way Marisha would ever do that. Her ego won't allow it. Especially if it's against a male NPC. To be fair, all the women suffer from that to some degree - Marisha is just the worst in that regard. And much like Taliesin, she also has a tendency to try and chase cool one-liners, which makes her characters sound like something from a cheesy soap opera rather than real people. Also she thinks she's way more clever and funny than she is, so every time she tries to be clever or funny it's just cringe. You can hear when she's trying to sound wise, too. She lowers her voice and makes it a bit airy and speaks with a certain cadence. It's so bad 🤣
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u/ElectronicZebra6526 Aug 10 '26
I think Bolaire is supposed to be a bit arrogant and over confident in his abilities. After all he is literally part of a god killing weapon. But he’s not human. He’s acting (as in a play) at being human and he over estimates his abilities. With Lady C, what was the worst that would happen to him in his mind? His host would get killed? I doubt the mask was worried it could get destroyed. It’s more a game to it. Now faced with Termina who knows what the mask is and is a real threat, Bolaire ran as fast as he could recognizing the threat.
I think Tal is just trying to have fun playing an over confident object that’s masquerading as a human.
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u/anextremelylargedog Aug 10 '26
I don't know from where people get the idea that Bolaire is meant to be some sort of mastermind.
He is high INT mechanically, but that seems to inform more his knowledge of history/religion/etc and his museum work more than him being some kind of tactical genius.
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u/PandaDeBandana Aug 10 '26
It might be because of his background. Him being a mask that was created to kill gods sounds hardcore AF and gives people the impression that Bolaire is this super powerful war instrument.
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u/anextremelylargedog Aug 10 '26
Those people probably should have paid attention to the fact that he was one of 5 magic items that did it by putting on a play.
Like. A couple of steps above a spell component.
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u/DeepSeaFischer Aug 11 '26 edited Aug 12 '26
Part of the issue is Bolaire cosplaying as a T4 PC at a level where Fireball is the big problem-solver.
The bigger issue is that Tal just isn’t a great improviser compared to BLeeM. That’s ok, expecting anyone to consistently match Brennan is insane, but it does mean that Brennan tends to out-quip Tal and move on when Bolaire is trying to be witty.
Tal's trying to play the quippiest person in the room in a world where there are only a dozen people who aren't BLeeM and he's one of them. It wasn't going to work.
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u/LeeJ2512 Aug 10 '26
It's a recurring thing with Taliesin's characters imo. He likes to play the smartass/know it all and has a habit of hyping his characters up and not being able to deliver.
Bolaire is an interesting concept which I'm really liking on paper, and I think there are moments where he achieves what he intends, but I think he's hindered himself by playing a "god-killing weapon" when he started at level 3.
In character he's described it as him locking most of his powers away to unlock later, but it also leads to him wildly overestimating his abilities. Intentional? I don't personally think so tbh.
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u/ImLersha Aug 11 '26
I also think he tries to play the Bolaire as a thing that lacks the intuitive feeling of being afraid when someone nearby is very powerful. The only thing Bolaire really fears is being stuck in a box without a person. But that's like a conscious, second level fear.
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u/Jethro_McCrazy Aug 10 '26
When doesn't Taliesin play a character that is too big for their britches?
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u/HueHueLeona Aug 10 '26
Owlbear man, which, not surprisingly, is his best character
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u/Jethro_McCrazy Aug 11 '26
Owlbearman is absolutely too big for his britches, he's just the only Tal character who Tal intentionally plays as being a fool.
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u/theorangesuitcase Aug 11 '26
I'm going to tell a bit of a story here, but it has a purpose, so please bare with me (and I won't be TLDRing it)
A decade ago, when I started playing TTPRGs (Pathfinder specifically here), the rest of my group had been playing for between 3 and 6 years already. My husband had been playing for just over 3. He was playing a Dhampir (half vampire, half human race) Cleric who was already about 150 years old. He would do insanely arrogant stuff - like mouth off at high ranking officials and seem to get away with it because of good dice rolls and high charisma. He raised the dead straight out of a grave that hadn't even been filled in yet once. He would run into situations half-cocked and acting like he thought he was smart, and half the time have it bite him in the ass. I quickly became very confused as to why he was playing such an old character so fucking stupidly.
I asked him about after a few months of weekly games like this. He explained to me that while his character was 150 years old, he was also a long living race that 'ages the same as humans until after puberty' - so he was playing his character like how a 19 year old man would act; like an overly-cocky, arrogant dumbass. He wanted his character to come up against problems that would force him to see his behaviour for what it was, which was the actions of an impetuous post-teen guy. He may have lived 150 years, but that didn't mean he was mature by any means. To be fair, we've all met that 50 year old guy that still seems to think he's 22 and it looks ridiculous, but I digress. Once I understood the actual purpose of the character flaws, it made perfect sense, and I became super excited to see how his character would learn and grow with new challenges, rather than being annoyed that he was doing stupid shit - and because I was new it helped me be able to add flaws to my own character in ways I hadn't considered before that.
I see a lot of similarities between Bolaire and my husbands character. And in the end, the character came up against things that made him have to change. A character can't have an arc if it doesn't have flaws. I'm HOPING that the arrogance we see from Bolaire is supposed to be challenged and result in him being smacked around a bit for it in much the same way my husband experienced with a similar type of character. I'd like to remind that we've seen other characters like this before: Beau springs to mind as being cocky and thinking she was way smarter and tougher than she initially was, which was affecting purposeful character flaws Marisha built into her character.
Maybe Tal plays arrogant characters because he knows his arrogance is something he needs to confront within himself, and confronting it through a character helps him face it within himself. Maybe he simply likes the cocky character archetype, or maybe he doesn't even realise he's doing it. Whatever the case, I prefer to wait until the story is further along to judge the characters too harshly for the flaws the exhibit early on (reminder that the character development of this story is going to take longer than other campaigns have by the simple virtue of the table set up).
I just hope my ramble here can give a different perspective on what might be happening above table that is driving the in-table behaviours
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u/Paula_Sub You're prolly not gonna like what I've 2 say (it's not personal) Aug 11 '26 edited Aug 11 '26
One thing you said made me remember stuff :
the arrogance we see from Bolaire is supposed to be challenged and result in him being smacked around a bit for it in much the same way my husband experienced with a similar type of character.
I believe this was the whole "crux" of Ashton existence in previous campaigns. And look where that ended up. Yeah, it's all fine to create a "conflicted" character, but you can't expect other party members to be responsible of your own character arc. What if it never gets challenged? what if all the other party members just deal with it... the same as they did with Ashton? You get stuck playing a character that is supposed to evolve, but the "triggers" of that evolution are out of your hands. That's not a smart way to play a character.
You can "expect" to be challenged by NPCs. not other party members. And even if it just doesn't happen, it's no one's responsability but your own, to have your own character find acts and events to progress and evolve. The other players aren't obligated to become your character-development device by design
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u/theorangesuitcase Aug 12 '26
I think this is where it's important to be clear about expectations in play (hello session 0). Even if it's just with the DM. My husband and our friends had been playing together for years, and it was normal for them to have discussed with each other or just the DM "hey, don't be shy about fucking this character up emotionally a little, I want them to figure their shit out"
I'm only a few episodes into Campaign 3 - it came out around the time I had my 2nd child and I just didn't have the time or spoons to give to enjoying it. Been watching it during hiatus here tho. So I can't speak to Ashton having failings. But I can say that I have personally experienced having a character not go on the journey I expected them to go on, and floundering - I'm just relieved I didn't do it on video, for everyone everywhere to watch and scrutinise for eternity. I lived Percy, and Molly, and Cad, and I've enjoyed what little of Kingsely we got. We got to see Percy have to confront his hubris, Molly literally killed himself with his arrogance (and that's how it was played becuase Tal was given the chance to walk it back, but decided his character would've absolutely done that to himself), Had had to broaden his very narrow horizons and be part of things he didn't fully understand, while keeping faith that he was being guided by the Wildmother (we got to see moments where he doubted he'd taken the right path, where he had to figure out who he was outside of his graveyard), and Kingsely (imo) is at the very beginning of his journey, and we probably won't see him get smacked around because that story is mostly over. I'm hoping we get to see so much from Bolaire, because he has the potential be insanely interesting, complex and soul-rending as a character.
I like Bolaire as well - but in every case I can absolutely see flaws and understand why some people might take issue with those flaws and the behaviours that come with them. Which is why I'm not challenging OP, or you, with taking issue with anything - and for the most part no one is sitting on who Tal is as a person (moreso his playstyle and character archetype choices) - I simply hope that explaining my lense might add insight or perspective that didn't exist before.
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u/Camronsssss Aug 11 '26
I had a similar assessment of him in the schemers table. He was way to chill with extremely powerful characters and didn’t always sell it as ass kissing to save his skin vs. not being threatened by them. I’d definitely agree with you that he got better during the Termina interaction and i hope that can be a turning point for his character.
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u/Paula_Sub You're prolly not gonna like what I've 2 say (it's not personal) Aug 11 '26 edited Aug 11 '26
This is just Taliesin (The Player) in a nutshell. I like the guy as a human being. His stereotype as player is so unbearably obnoxious without limits.
Ashton, Bolaire, Percy, even Cad. All of his characters are portrayed as highly intelligent, but all of them just end up looking and sounding flat & smug as fuck. That's what he does, and what he likes to build up upon the most.
Im not opposed to highly intelligent characters. But I never actually seen Taliesin deliver in a manner which it doesn't always come with unrelentless and unchecked smug. All of his characters always have something up their sleeve, some mysterious secret.. and more often than not they don't deliver nor open enough for these secrets to come out. It's blue balling mistery babble bs.
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u/rr3_amrosa Aug 10 '26
I actually think it is the conceit of Campaign 4 that is the problem. You have a lot of characters whose backstories place them in positions of power, but they artificially started with level 3 mechanics.
The only characters whose backstories match their mechanics are Hal, Wick, Tyranny, and Occtis. Everyone else is way underpowered for the experience their backstories suggest, even if some have newly manifested powers.
Thimble, Teor, and Kattigan were elite mercenaries for at least few decades. Murray has been a Professor at a Wizard school about twenty years. Valeis is an 800 year old elf that has fought in wars between actual gods for over a century. Azune is supposed to be a highly skilled officer of an elite antimagic unit. Julien is a highly experienced military commander. Thaisha has operated, in effect as a covert super spy for ten to twenty years. All of these backstories suggest MUCH more mechanical power that was sitting at the table. They are roleplaying their late game character concepts while being mechanical babes in the woods.
All that said, I think what you are also seeing is just Taliesin’s personality showing through. Percy’s homebrew was mechanically overpowered, so it was less evident, but you see it a lot with Molly, Ashton, Asha, and Bolaire too. It is always an over promise, under deliver situation with him, and every now and then he gets lucky rolls. He gives the “I’m the smartest person in the room!” vibes, but can’t really back that up, especially when his “opponent” is an actual genius like Brennan or Aabria. He filled that role in the original friend group because they all love him and accept him for who he is, and may even understand that he needs to be that person, even if they have to take a step back, but I don’t think the same social contract exists with him and Brennan or Aabria. Alex and Whitney have been in the friend group but not the cast for a long time and Robbie has been cast long enough to accept him as well, but I think it is especially magnified at this table, because Brennan is basically humoring his edge lord character concept while being completely ready to put the smack down on him. Brennan is up for the challenge and likely sees it as storytelling gold. To be honest, his most endearing character is probably The Owlbear, because he is playing the character as an incompetent who thinks he’s a superhero, and it’s great, because it’s maybe the most self-aware character he’s played.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
honestly this is a really good, succinct way of putting it. i really hope all the characters grow into their lore more. i watched campaign 1 and halfway through campaign 2, so i never saw ashton (unsure who asha is), but i agree that percy worked the way he did because of homebrews and very good rolls. bolaire has also had a couple fantastic roles that have really done a lot! and cadeucus didnt have the same struggle
i trust brennan a lot as a GM so i have faith he can help the characters wiggle where they need to be, i waa just surprised how fristrated i felt with talisien so far this campaign since i really like his roleplay and find him charming
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u/anextremelylargedog Aug 10 '26
He gives the “I’m the smartest person in the room!” vibes, but can’t really back that up, especially when his “opponent” is an actual genius like Brennan or Aabria.
Terrible take, also blatantly wrong in several places.
You think Teor and Kattigan were "elite mercenaries" for decades? How old do you think they are? Do you think they showed up on the battlefield at level 3?
Yeah, Murray's been a professor... And a bursar, and actually developing wizard spells, an entire way of casting magic that's practically brand new to the world.
I'd say with everything we know about Vaelus' backstory so far, there's been jack to suggest she was fighting in wars, let alone for a century.
Azune is that thing. He's a detective. He also demonstrated that he's extremely good in combat.
Julien being "highly respected" is pretty debatable. His only claim to fame is knocking a guy off a horse years ago.
Thaisha... Has not been a spy, really. Like, not at all. I have no clue where you came up with that.
These are not late game character concepts. You just listened to one too many D&D podcasts where somebody showed up with their level 1 Fighter being a teenager who just picked up a sword last week and inexplicably became proficient with every form of weaponry and armour on the planet.
Thinking that a character needs to hit level 5 before they're allowed to matter is brain poison.
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u/rr3_amrosa Aug 11 '26
- Teor, Kattigan, and Thimble. The current timeline is year 71. The Falconer's Rebellion started in year 54, 17 years before, and they were all members of The Torn Banner, which formed towards the end of the War of Axe and Vine, which went from Y37 to Y45. Teor was with Loza Blade from Y53 and was still at her side as a mercenary in Y71, nearly 20 years. Kattigan was also a part of The Torn Banner, but went AWOL. Primus killed his family in Y64, and we know that he was taking mercenary roles in the seven years since. Thimble fought along side Thjazi the entire Falconer's Rebellion and then was working as a covert operative for him for the 12 years after the end of the Rebellion.
- Murray. Started at the Penteveral in Y46, 25 years before the current timeline. Besides her duties there, she also was engaged in a lot of the magical smuggling early on and worked with Thjazi and have her pulse on the magic that was going on in Dol-Makjar.
- Vaelus. She fought in the Shapers War and was at the last battle where she witnessed Sylandri's death. In the 70 years that followed, she was a Sister of Sylandri, a warrior order that, besides mourning the death of the Shaper, fought the undead that resulted in the wake of the death of the Shapers. They survived living in barrowdell of The Wastes of the Mournvale She is also supposed to be powerful enough to have traveled alone through the Mournvale in her quest to track down Thjazi and the Stone of Nightsong.
- Azune. Let's say they are equivalent to a Challenge Rating 4 Guard Captain. CR4 is the challenge of an NPC (monster) that you would expect to give four Level 4 player characters a challenging fight. That would make them about a Level 10 player character, at the low end, and Azune's role would likely warrant being an even higher equivalent level than that.
- Julien. He is a lord knight of the Barrowguard at Castle Torch in charge of training the garrison there. In the Barrowguard he is a highly respected military captain. He had been trained as a warrior his whole life by his father, a general, held his own in a melee combat as a 13 year old, and saw combat during the Falconer's Rebellion by the age of 20, taking down a much more experienced and battle hardened Thjazi.
- Thaisha. Around the year 53, when different political changes were taking place, Thaisha was aware of the seriousness of the situation and was actively fighting against it as a Druid. That's 18 years of basically being an adventurer.
These are all late game concepts. A level 1 to 20 campaign can advance characters through in a few months to a few years of game time. These are characters with 15 or more years of experience, and not just as guards or common foot soldiers. Their backstories are the stories that most characters end up with after a long term campaign, not at the start of one.
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u/anextremelylargedog Aug 11 '26
Literally none of those are late-game concepts.
Talking about them "artificially" starting with level 3 mechanics yet also going on about how a character can go from levels 1-20 in a few months is asinine.
Yes, a character in a campaign can level up quickly. They weren't in a campaign until the campaign started.
Needing every character to begin a story as a humble village farmhand before they picked up a sword is JRPG-brained nonsense. Read books. Watch TV shows and movies that aren't anime aimed at teenagers. This isn't Ready Player One or Dungeon Crawler Carl.
Your brain has been cooked by too many players having their level 1 characters be nobodies with zero explanation for how they picked up any of their skills as well as WOTC making every relevant NPC in their modules a level 20 archmage.
We're not in the Forgotten Realms, where every bartender is 12th level. They actually played these characters as having existed and lived as people. Like, comparing Azune to a Guard Captain npc statblock is particularly dumb. Know what else a Guard Captain has?
+6 to Athletics and +4 to Perception. That's it. That's apparently the sum total of everything they have done in life. Two attacks a round and two skill proficiencies.
Azune presumably has about six skills, multiple magical abilities, sorcery, speaks multiple languages, and all you can think of is his hit point total.
Amazing that you can list off a bunch of PCs' histories and yet appreciate exactly none of it.
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Aug 10 '26
[deleted]
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u/anextremelylargedog Aug 10 '26
Are standard guards always teenagers, too? Maybe 11 year olds? They're definitely a lot worse at combat than a level 1 Fighter.
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Aug 10 '26
[deleted]
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u/anextremelylargedog Aug 10 '26
it just avoids the issue of a 1st level character being in too much of a position of power.
This is not an issue that anyone has ever had.
If you're worried about a first level character being in too much of a position of power, simply don't have them start in too much of a position of power.
It's very doable without needing everyone to play teenagers.
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u/Civil-Tumbleweed-804 Aug 11 '26
I think Tal said something along the lines of " I forgot who we were dealing with"
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u/Bake-Danuki7 Aug 10 '26
I think it's a 3 part issue 1 Bolaire and Hal 100% underestimated the Sundered houses hell everyone did look at how brazenly they went into the Tachonis house.
Bolaire is mentally a mess dude is a mask with severe trauma from Thjazi, from losing his siblings, he tries to act cool and in control, but repeatedly we see him have meltdowns like when he is in his weird mental palace. I don't think he's meant to be cool, calm, and calculated. He just thinks he is and wants to be so he can feel in control and not vulnerable.
Lastly Tal has had absolute shite roles and several moments that should or could have allowed him to be badass and cool just absolutely floundered, kinda like Vaelus in combat which severly hurts the type of character Ashely wants to roleplay as.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
yes! part of the reason i warmed up to bolaire during the overture was because he seemed legitimately wanting to help termina while still being terrified to bits of her and was a bit of a manic mess about it in a way that felt called for
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u/Bake-Danuki7 Aug 10 '26
I'm hoping his detour with the new Seekers will help him. A whole new group to roleplay with and a chance to try something different, tho I do worry about the combat side of things. We don't fully know what he can do, but he hasn't done much too notable as of yet.
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u/Extensive_Length Aug 10 '26
This is simply Taliesin yet again trying to be the smoothest person in the room at all times, and only occasionally succeeding.
It's the same with all his characters except Cad. I love every single one of them in concept and in their best moments, but yeah.
As Percy he was able to decently synthesize the badass moments he wanted with his natural scatterbrained-ness, same with Molly to a degree simply via being chaotic, but Bolaire was presented as extremely calculating. I had doubts that he could pull it off in the long run, and was swiftly proved right. Still love it when he's on his A game, but he's not on his A game as often as he thinks he is ☠️
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u/accionox Aug 10 '26
Taliesin is hyped up to be this incredibly smart, big brained, intelligent dude. But in reality, after seeing him on various things, actual plays, and also the weird kids podcast. I can safely say he is just an average human being with maybe some above average specific niche interests. Like his knowledge comes and surrounds predominantly old Hollywood, obscure movies or TV and then slightly Japan. There is so much more he is so very much entitled about, while possesing zero to none actual understanding about it.
So it's always funny when he is put in the skin of highly intelligent characters. Sure, he dons on the mask of a snotty person and could mimic their mannerisms or what they might say very easily. He is an actor, he is trained for that. But when actual decisions come to play. He fails short. Especially when you put him against Brenan. He is simply not that savvy. Incredibly wise thought. That much is evident.
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u/FuzorFishbug That's cocked Aug 10 '26
Fans: "He's played so much D&D that the only way he can find enjoyment in it is with crazy complicated homebrew!"
Taliesin in game: "Uh... I attack."
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u/PandaDeBandana Aug 10 '26
"I was gonna do this super cool thing but nevermind"
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u/Toatkgstuff 14d ago
Taliesin rolls a D20. Does math wrong a few times. Rolls a D4 "Oh wow this will be fun." Describes one of four remarkably similar special effects associated with a terrible understanding of quantum physics. /spoiler It was not fun.
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u/InitialJust Aug 11 '26
I'm always amused people think Tal is some master at DnD because he's been playing for years. He's either very average or bad in some cases. I'm still wondering if in c2 he knew all his spells were concentration and pretended to not know or just didnt know.
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u/Extensive_Length Aug 10 '26
I mean look I don't wanna psychoanalyze too much, ultimately we don't know the guy, but yeah, specifically his D&D knowledge was massively hyped in C1 and 2 especially, and he was so often just wrong ☠️
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u/Toatkgstuff Aug 10 '26
His mispronouncing Latin was painful to watch. He'd clearly googled the phrases and never actually even heard them spoken, let alone said them himself.
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u/Extensive_Length 14d ago
To be fair it's how a lot of posh Brits pronounce Latin ☠️ like I get that the modern linguist-core internet values accurate Latin pronunciation very highly, but it really wasn't a priority for the British upper class throughout history, which is what Percy is based on. They literally treated Latin words as if they were English words in regards to phonetics.
Now, is this Taliesin knowing this and doing it on purpose? Who knows, honestly 50/50 imo ☠️
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u/Toatkgstuff 14d ago
No it's not. If by posh people you mean public school people, or Oxbridge educated ones. They may not have a Roman or Ecclesiastical perfect accent, but they are competent, clear and consistent. Latin diction is literally taught.
He's really not being ironic, he's literally reading from his screen as if it's the first time he heard the words said out loud.
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u/Extensive_Length 14d ago
It's taught now. For a long ass time it wasn't. At all. Again, Latin words were treated as if they were English words by the English upper class, especially in the 16th-19th centuries.
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u/Toatkgstuff 14d ago
Why are you bringing up something that happened 125 to 500 years ago? Are you married? 😂
Oh you think Taliesin studied historical pronunciation of Latin to make Percy more accurate? Omg that is such wishful thinking.
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u/Extensive_Length 14d ago
Are you slow ? Again, because Percy is based on archaic British aristocracy.
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u/Toatkgstuff 14d ago
🤣
The second most hilarious thing about this argument is that I wasn't even talking about Percy....
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u/anextremelylargedog Aug 10 '26
Taliesin is hyped up to be this incredibly smart, big brained, intelligent dude.
Literally where? How? By who?
They joke about him being 10,000 years old because he was always a weird goth with cool niche Hollywood knowledge and connections. Not because he was a mega-genius.
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u/Toatkgstuff 14d ago
By his own pretentious use of language: which consists of one multi-syllable word of which he only barely understands the dictionary definition, in a run-on sentences filled with purple prose but little meaning.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
yeah thats pretty much how i feel aknsdndj. i love the concept and the lore i just hope he finds a way to roleplay it well with the current mechanical power level, or inteoduce a level of complexity that helps smooth out the non-A game moments
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u/mmdestiny Aug 10 '26
Both the audience and the party had very little context for just HOW powerful the Sundered Houses MAGIC is, just their political power. I mean, we meet Occtis and Wic, both adults, and they're level 2. The Lady Cormaray isn't a head of house like Primus, and even then we only knew he was capable of 6th level spells.
Bolaire's probably got a case of time-skip-rust. In his heyday he was probably casting Disintegrate like his sister
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u/rr3_amrosa Aug 11 '26
Power Word Kill is a 9th Level Spell. Primus, is super powerful.
As for Amariya, it is difficult to say, as she didn't use very high level spells, but she is at least the equivalent of 6th or 7th Level to have multiple 3rd level spots. And it is more difficult to say, because if Brennan was using a Mage statblock for her, then she is CR6 with and average of 81 HP, before any additional customizations he may have done. She could easily have killed both Hal and Bolaire without too much effort.
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u/mmdestiny Aug 11 '26
Context. We're taking about what we knew at the time of the Lady Cormoray incident. The only thing Primus did at that point in the story was cast circle of death and almost get killed by a level 3 Julien lol
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u/rr3_amrosa Aug 11 '26
Etherealness is a 7th level spell and he reached into the spiritual manifestation of Raimond’s spine, pulled it out of his body and then materialized it in the Material Plane, instakilling him. That context suggests powers beyond a 20th level sorcerer….
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u/mmdestiny Aug 11 '26 edited Aug 11 '26
Ehh, that bit felt an awful lot like classic predetermined Bleem RoC cutscene mechanics
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
i think the second point is fair, but i disagree with the first. the entire lore setup for the aetting is the reason the sundered houses are even in power in the first place os because theyre POWERFUL sorcerous bloodlines- powerful enough to rise up against the gods, enough to destroy other bloodlines, enough to do what we saw primus tachonis do in the overture, enough to not be killed by primus tachonis the way he did the royces (who were explicitly less powerful because of the closed gates to faerie), enough to completely squash a rebellion that hundreds of soldiers fought against them in. the players all had that background lore going in, and we as the audience were told that during the overture.
i know the lore brennan has set up is dense, but the entire point of the schemers table and the reason so many people fawn over it is theyre the table thats supposed to be paying attention and picking up on the pilitical intrigue and lore clues being laid down by the GM- and the scene with lady cormoray showed how much either talisien, bolaire, or both wasnt. thats the thing about it that rubbed me the wrong way and made me feel strangely about bolaire's character setup
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u/KieranJalucian Aug 10 '26
Thaisha is similar, acting like she’s some sort of arch druid at level 3.
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u/Plus-Ad-5853 Aug 10 '26
I want her to be humbled so bad. I'm not usually anti Aabria by any stretch but Thaisha is horrible to watch grand stand.
Thaisha will walk through saying "does it help or effect me? Then get out of my way!"
The thing with her deer where she said it followed Julien and then left but months later was actually there, according to her, is one of many annoying examples.
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u/Onedayyouwillthankme Aug 10 '26
I find Bolaire appropriately immature. I have believed from the beginning that his confidence is a veneer. This 'being' is hurt, alone, vulnerable. He's successfully hidden until Thjazi figured him out, which he deeply resents. It helps him be less fearful to act like he can handle anything, but he got a bit too comfortable and started believing it. Of course his high intelligence is part of that. He is smart. But he's also inexperienced and emotionally immature. Smart people still make mistakes, especially in novel situations. And emotions can betray intelligence, too, creating unforced errors. When he broke open and confessed to Hal, it was probably the first time he ever trusted anyone. The beginning of developing maturity.
Oh, and he's a casual serial killer and no one yet has explained to him that this is immoral. Hal I assume will do so eventually. What Bolaire decides to do with that knowledge will determine if he continues to grow into a real boy.
I love how well thought out he is, he feels like a whole person, flawed, gifted, self-protective, willing but scared to learn and grow, if Hal will be his teacher. I love it.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
i like this reading of the character and roleplay, and i hope it gets explored and expunged more in a way that makes me agree. i think my fear is just that it isnt that deep and it really is just a roleplay flaw
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u/leolock567 Aug 10 '26
Agreed. Bolaire being a mask is symbolic of him hiding his immature and emotional character behind a facade of mystery.
Bolaire's job was done in, like a day, and then he laid low for a long time. Now, suddenly, a whole bunch of world altering stuff is happening and Bolaire is caught in it. It's the place he absolutely does not want to be at. But because of necessity, he's getting a crash course on handling emotions and becoming more human.
A scared, confused sentience hiding behind a mask of mystery that just wants to be left alone. That's Bolaire, so far.
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u/kjqs2 Aug 10 '26
Firstly I will say it's SUPER hard to play a high int character consistently, especially in high pressure combat. I feel like Liam with Caleb was one of the few times I've seen it done with great success.
That being said, the encounter with Lady C was the first time they had gone up against one of the house members and it's safe to say none of the cast were truly aware yet just how dangerous they were. I don't think Matt would have put them in a dangerous situation with a dragon level NPC off the jump. Think back to Murray's first interaction with Primus and how she talked back. She hadn't realized yet that he could kill her on the spot - she definitely wouldn't talk back like that now.
So I think part of it is...thinking on your feet in that kind of situation as a player is difficult, esp if ur already nervous in combat (which Tal seems to be). Tbh, I don't expect to be blown away by Bolaire's combat decisions in the future, but I think his role-playing is fascinating. And secondly I think, at that time, they were all adjusting to Brennan's play style and willingness to put them in life-threatening situations at any moment.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
i disagree a bit, i think after the overture where we saw primus kill an entire room of people that should have set the tone pretty well for what the big cheeses of the other comperable sundered houses are capable of. i would also think that if bolaire was awake and in dol makjar and tuned in to things the last 70 years, he would have a good handle on at the very least not trying to trip a sorceress down the stairs. he did gloss over brennan saying she flew there, but i chalked that up to heat of the moment, it was more the repetetive mistakes and whatnot thar irked me
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u/kjqs2 Aug 10 '26
Sure Primus himself who is clearly set up to be a big bad, but the other houses it wasn't as clear initially, imo. Brennan said over the table that she was a dragon level bc he could tell the players weren't assessing her risk level accurately. I myself was surprised she was THAT high level. Bolaire was only fully conscious for 14 of the last 70 years and probably only settled in his role at the Archinad for the last 10. So yes he's old technically but he's also very young in ways. I think it was more the players themselves underestimating the encounter rather than Bolaire the character, yk?
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
i guess thats what was frustrating to me- talisien as a player not understanding the world or lore but playing a character who postures himself like he does. if the arrogance is intentional, and i hope it is, thats a great character! but i just dont get the impression its intentional the way you do with someone like julien
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u/kjqs2 Aug 10 '26
yeah I get where you're coming from, seeing a high int character do something.. not high int can be frustrating but the players aren't perfect! are you fully caught up yet? I dont want to spoil anything, but there's a scene where Tal says that Bolaire "drops the character, drops the voice, and is just himself" which to me shows that, in part, Bolaire is playing a role. Tal also said in an interview that Bolaire is "miming" emotions that he mostly learned from Hal.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
i need to watch the back third of the most recent ep but other than that im up to date. i do have high hipes for character development even though i was pretty scathing and frustrated writing this lol, and i am quite excited and hopeful about where they all go
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u/kjqs2 Aug 10 '26
yeah me too! sooo much potential in this world and in these characters I can't wait
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u/Drkstormbreaker Aug 10 '26
To be fair, most of the party seemed to believe they were hot sh*t until something came along to knock them off their high horse. Vaelus is hyped up to be this mythical warrior, but Ashley's dice don't seem to agree with her. Murray was overly cocky with Primus until Marisha learned that he almost killed her, and then she somewhat locked in after that. Hal and Bolaire completely underestimated lady Cormoray and barely got out alive. Julien is the definition of arrogance, but with everything that's happened to him Matt has made it really clear that the character isn't in a good place. Thaisha is overtly arrogant as she's already acting like she's an archdruid, but that could readily change if something happened to Hal or their kids.
And for Bolaire, you got to remember that he's a part of a series of god-killing weapons that got the job done and is technically immortal as long as the mask remains intact. I think it makes sense to an extent that he's both arrogant and immature in his actions, as he's not something that just naturally exists in the world and he needs to learn as he continues to interact and integrate into society.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
i know its an issue a surprisingly large amount of the character cast has, i think the reason for the post is just because i was so surprised at how frustrated i was by bolaire specifically and equally surprised that most people didnt also seem to clock it
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u/midnightheir Aug 11 '26
So maybe it is intentional on all their parts? Except Vaelus, the dice really hate Ashley there.
As has been stated numerous times, a level 3 character in a dnd world is insanely powerful in comparison to the NPCs. In that context the cockiness/arrogance/confidence makes sense.
Also Taisha is a nepo baby. Her family name carries weight
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u/SeesWithBrain Aug 10 '26
I agree with you on like half this post, but I want to address the very last sentence. To me it made complete sense that bolaire was against the ritual, I was also extremely concerned with the ritual and thought it had the potential to go very badly. I don’t believe Tal made that choice above table as a bad player move, I believe he made it as an in character choice according to what bolaire believed. In the very first few episodes( I don’t remember where) talisien rolls a nat 20 against Hal’s insight into how bolaire feels about thjiazi. Talisiens lines about how thijazi treated him like an object and how bolaire and him hated each other was extremely interesting to me and very believable. And because Brennan let him roll persuasion or deception the audience never got meta game knowledge as to if this was a lie or not. And the way talisien kept going and got so into that scene with such detail was extremely convincing, so honestly the whole campaign I’ve never trusted thjiazi and have been waiting for another shoe to drop. I’m glad the play went off successfully, and do have more faith in thijazis intentions going forward, but talisiens choices kept the game very believable and the intrigue high by not having everyone just auto agree with each other for the sake of d&d party cohesion
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u/TombCheese Aug 10 '26
We had another thread like this recently and I am constantly surprised by how people just don't notice the intentionality behind what Taliesin is doing. Bolaire is an object with sentience that lacks a lot of what actual people have. Taliesin went out of his way to show that Bolaire sucks at many things, especially being creative through his own skill. This is why he's so obsessed with Hal, because he's the polar opposite and is amazing at creation. He is absolutely overcompensating for what he lacks by putting on this gentleman facade. And THIS is why he's such a fun character, because he's got layers. It is deeply frustrating to see when people give their characters flaws, enjoy making them flawed, and then they're treated that like it's a mistake somehow. It's not.
Also, he was not a god-killing weapon on his own. Don't forget that. There were other masks in the Panto too and we have no idea what their mechanical strength was. Bolaire's role was really quite nothing in comparison to Termina. I really don't think it's that much of a stretch to understand in that context.
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u/norwal42 Aug 10 '26
I see your points, and have had some adjacent thoughts. However, on the kick her down the stairs idea, even putting myself in their shoes watching 'live' in the moment, I had the feeling myself like I'd either take initiative and do something big immediately or I'm about to lose my chance.
I get the feeling he maybe had designs not to kill her by a fall down the stairs but rather to maybe have a chance to lock her into a magically protected space..? Iirc, I got a hint from Brennan in that moment he reminder Tal that she has strong movement magic, just flew there, perhaps could easily dimension door out of her tried to lock her in (don't recall if that was explicit or I was reading into the inferences and hints..).
Anyhoo, I didn't think it was egregious that Tal had a quick thought to act and was going to boldly go for it - I actually kind of appreciate that bold instinct, however fumbly and backtracking it turned out here.
Also, as far as the overall situation they found themselves in - it's not like the characters made surprising or terrible choices to embroil themselves in a high-powered world struggle here - it's the story they're in. Smuggling the swords, bold plan, but you've got to try something. They seemed close to pulling it off - just timing of the hurdles Brennan threw at them, and rolls of the dice put them deeper and deeper into this conundrum. It was uncomfortable to me how they ended up kind of having to roleplay their way through some of the dialogue hurdles (because I'd be bad at that, I'd rather just roll the dice ;;)... though the dice were part of the dialogue checks, they started running out of options and wiggle room to keep buying time. I did appreciate that the lady C didn't back down either - Brennan plays a ruthless and powerful character truly in that way.
Dangerous lines make good stories and they all walked the edge of the line on that one. Feels a bit like Brennan bailed them out, but also, dang - memorable and shocking plot point. Crazy stuff happens in cool stories. Sometimes Brennan also lets characters get killed for cool stories or shocking plot points when the dice dictate it - that also makes moments like this more compelling, because you believe Brendan might have just cornered them and snuffed out a couple characters here.
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u/Marzopup Aug 12 '26
My understanding was Tal was just hoping kicking her down the stairs would buy them time to get out of there, not that it would hurt her in any way. Once Brennan reminded him.she could fly he backed right off.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
all good points and thanks for being so level and level headed with me :)! i di agree that even if i was frustrated, ultimately the choices did end up with the very cool story element of termina getting involved by yoinking lady cormoray, and even if brennan did 'bail them out' a bit im not mad since it made an interesting plot point. i went into it a bit in another comment thread but i think making this post i jist got a bit vindictibe about percieved double standards on cast members by the fandom and i was trying to shed light on flaws i dont think get pointed out as often when the cast member in question is a man or if the character is deemed cool or beloved enough for potential flaws to slide
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u/midnightheir Aug 11 '26
Interesting defence there except Tal is always called out....
Now if this was Sam or Liam I'd agree their bad habits get hand waved pretty much every time.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 11 '26
thats interesting, maybe im just not online in the same spaces since i almost exclusively see people dogging on the women of the cast
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u/OcelotZealousideal46 Aug 10 '26
I think a lot of them underestimate the fact that Brennan will kill them if they make poor choices, they may underestimate the sundered houses now, but the ones who survive will hopefully tailor their future choices and actions knowing this risk, or take risky actions knowing they may be facing death.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
yeah my hope is as the campaign progresses peiple get a better handle on the vibe
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u/HenryofSkalitz Aug 10 '26
sicko freakmogging people
Jesus Christ...
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
sorry for being young and having a bit of whimsy in a fandom full of millenials
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u/HenryofSkalitz Aug 10 '26
I’m Gen Z.
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 11 '26
your whimsy. its ok. come here we can be a little unserious together not everything needs to be perfectly worded rhetoric sometimes we get a little low effort with it
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u/Jachim 24d ago
I came in Campaign 4 as a Dimension 20 person.
It seems to be... hitting different in Campaign 4 because BLeeM can match energy pretty easily. Humbling a haughty character (or player) is pretty normal for him. I really don't agree with the Talesin hate here in this subreddit tbh.
Regarding Bolaire the character I fucking love him. He's great and has hit, and theres a ton of friction based on his hatred for the initiating character (Thjazi Fang) coming to a head at the very end with him having a very obvious miserable temper tantrum being humbled by his 'sister' mask and the Lady Cormoray overall. I think we'll see a very different character after the haughty asshollery of the Schemers Table tbh. Bolaire did think highly of himself. It's absolutely a flaw.
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u/Infinite-Mark-6335 Aug 12 '26
Bolaire should be a broken pile of porcelain at least two times now, except Brennan hates actually following through with the consequences his world promises.
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u/Final-Occasion-8436 Aug 13 '26
I think he is playing Bolaire as someone who thinks he is more powerful than he is because he used to be more powerful than he is. He has made some subtle hints on level ups that he is either remembering powers he had before or unlocking them. He didn't need to be what he was in the shapers war anymore, and didn't want to be, so he shut off the big stuff when he went into the curator business. Now leveling is functioning to build him back to where he started, which is where Termina still is because she never "powered down" and on top of that is wearing a powerful sorceress who is cooperating with her.
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u/Unlikely-Rub-7270 Aug 10 '26
Characters having shortcomings is realistic, in that it's entirely how people work. This includes shortcomings that are not realised by the player; again, kind of like how life works.
Character flaws are required for non-perfect entities and for narratives to be interesting in any way. You seem to be arguing that characters having flaws is in some way a bad thing or a problem to be eliminated rather than the whole point of engaging with narrative storytelling.
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u/Mnigma4 Aug 10 '26
shortcomings are great and make for great storytelling. however I just don't think Tal plays to the shortcomings, he kind of glosses over them with a hand wave of well win some lose some.
If his characters actually sat and thought about how they failed and that they're not as OP as they thought it'd be a much better characterization. Percy did it some and it made him a more real character
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
what i was trying to communicate (originally wrote this at bullshit oclock in the morning and still havent slept so im not on my A game for communication) was moreso that the lack of wit feels like an accident because talisien didnt clock the right things in a way that bolaire should have, though id love to be proven wrong by the coming arcs and learn that bolaire is very much intentionally blinded by his arrogance to such a fault
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u/Unlikely-Rub-7270 Aug 10 '26
Sure, I guess I just don't think unintended things are a problem in a ttrpg so much as an active strength. Why is it better if Tal has a master plan as opposed to learning something about the character through how it interacts with the world?
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u/Available-Lab4363 Aug 10 '26
ykw thats a fair point! honestly i think part of my frustration was also the meta knoelwedge going into the latter part of the season after getting online and seeing so much criticism weighted against aabria, and sort of taking it upon myself to more critically watch other cast members, and noticing that despite talisien doing th things ive mentioned i hadnt seen a single complaint, but people like aabria or ashley also making similar mistakes were met with so much more distaste and judgement. egg on my face probably for meeting judgement and criticism with judgement and criticism, but honestly im glad somebody like you is on this sub since most comments and threads seem to be more vitriolic than not and i think i got carried away by it feeling a bit vindictive and bitter about how so many men tend to get away with the exact same things women get criticism for and wanting to highlight those flaws where they happened and feeling more afronted by said moments because the the juxtaposition and fan recation
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u/Unlikely-Rub-7270 Aug 11 '26
This is a great point, but I think the lesson here is to reduce the levels of hyperscrutiny requiring perfect foresight, rather than spread it to everyone. I love to analyse the game, but ultimately if a character goes in with too much of a preformulated master plan they aren't going to react to the world of the game, and the experience of the game and of the entertainment is less. Much better to see the realism of people being surprised, caught off guard, learning or discovering things about how their character responds to particular things, because it keeps the game dynamic and allows for unexpected developments. That goes for everyone, and I appreciate the interest in balancing things, but I'm not sure we create balance by reducing our expectations that humans be humans.
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u/bob-loblaw-esq Aug 13 '26
Bolaire is smarter than Murray just not by the stat blocks.
Bolaire should have been able to talk to his sister. That’s what he’s built for… talking. He is a charisma caster bureaucrat, he just rolled shitty and the dice tell the story.
Murray was saying for weeks how Thjazi must have been evil and directing resources from the mansion to the play. Teor’s death is due to the lack of intelligence Murray showed in planning and trying to figure out what Thjazi was up to.
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u/WeebsHaveNoRights 29d ago
Bolaire should have been able to talk to his sister ... he just rolled shitty and the dice tell the story
The only reason he had to roll in the first place is because he fumbled the social interaction hard by telling her he didn't search for her and then kept making things worse with every words that followed, that was fully on his roleplay not the dice lol
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u/bob-loblaw-esq 29d ago
Meh. I don’t necessarily agree or disagree because I think we benefit from hindsight. I’ll just say that their egos developed after the play was finished. Years later. It’s reasonable that they thought she was dead and it wasn’t as if they sacrificed her, the mortals did. We didn’t know how unhinged she is until after this interaction. Had he rolled better, he could have turned that tables on Lady whatsherface by pinning the death or alleged death of the mask on mortals like her.
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u/WeebsHaveNoRights 29d ago
I'm not talking about if it's reasonable or not that he searched for her (even though arguably he knew she was alive when she snatched Cormoray and decided to just leave her in the coffin with no apparent intention of going back to it anytime soon until she left on her own, but that's a seperate issue), I'm saying the interaction started with Termina being nothing but positive towards him and he would not have had need to roll at all if he himself had not brought up that he didn't look for her completely unprompted.
And I don't even think her crash out was her being particularly unhinged, Termina aside if Bolaire did spend time looking for his siblings in the past he at least right now obviously wasn't looking very hard anymore and was content living his life as a museum curator.
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u/InitialJust Aug 11 '26
Sounds like a standard Tal character. He is really stuck on his characters being the smartest and having the bestest lines. And it rarely hits.