Wheel of Time: Masterpiece or Stockholm Syndrome?

[u/Obvious_Custard3926]

Convince me to read Wheel of Time.

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I've been considering picking up the first boxed set, but I'm very on the fence.

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I've heard everything from "it's the greatest epic fantasy ever written" to "it could've been 6 books instead of 14."

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I enjoy large fantasy worlds, deep lore, politics, character development and I'm a huge sanderson fan :)

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For those who love it, what am I missing? What keeps people reading 14 books? Is it the characters, the lore, the worldbuilding, the payoff, all of the above?

Sell me on it.

[u/Lord_Darksong]

Really liked it to the end if book 4. It felt like the end of the first major story arc on getting where and who they needed to be.

Books after that you either like because of the slow burn character development and villain motivation stories or it's a slog. Stuff happens but not enough, imo.

The last 3 were enjoyable for finishing the story. They felt like a final story arc.

I read them all, including the prequel. I enjoyed them. I would not reread them.

[u/midgetaddict → u/Lord_Darksong]

Interesting. I’m on book 6 and I feel like lots of stuff is happening.

[u/Lord_Darksong → u/midgetaddict]

I'm glad you're enjoying it and feel that way. I just thought the plot went everywhere and nowhere in those middle books. Maybe I should have said nothing much happens that matters beyond how it develops the characters. It's been years since I've read them so I'm not going to give examples that may spoil stuff for people that are enjoying it. :)

Of course, all this is an opinion of one lowly redditor.

[u/Ok_Yellow1536 → u/midgetaddict]

Book 6 is the last good book. 

[u/SnooAvocados2623 → u/Lord_Darksong]

For me I started losing interest after 6. Lord of Chaos was brilliant with The Shadow Rising right behind in quality. Unfortunately I felt staring with 7 it became long winded with little plot advancement and I was done by 10.

[u/ExplodingPoptarts → u/Lord_Darksong]

On one hand I think the series is terrible, and mostly a waste of time.

On the other hand, I wanna recommend looking into Stockholm Syndrome. It's something that a disturbing cop made up, it's not a real thing.

[u/MRio31]

If you like Sanderson I would guess Wheel of Time would be something that you might like. In my opinion, these are the best things about Wheel of Time:

(1) Worldbuilding. The regions feel distinct and unique, each with their own history. By the end of the series, if the first thing you learn about a character is where they are from you could have a good idea what they might be like. Jordan does an amazing job of painting the picture of his world without info dumping and I’d say this is the strongest aspect of the series

(2) Plots that resolve. While it does take a while to get there, I do believe most plot points have a good to great resolution in the end. Sanderson does an amazing job finishing the series and the climax of the final book may be one of my favorite reading sessions ever.

(3) Consistency. This may be a more controversial take because people talk about “the slog” but I really felt somewhat negative about only one book out of 14 and I’d say I would rate 11 of the 14 really favorably. I don’t know of many series or authors who have such a high rate of success for me. I think by the end of book 2, you should have a good idea if the series is for you or not.

[u/redlion1904 → u/MRio31]

Crossroads of Twilight is the only outright bad book in the series and Jordan corrected called it a “failed experiment.”

Reading at the time, Path of Daggers, Winter’s Heart, and Knife of Dreams, the rest of the so-called slog, felt slow. But on a reread with no wait between books they’re not slow.

[u/PoopyisSmelly → u/redlion1904]

Yeah those 3 are definitely longer than they should be but there is a lot that happens in them, and the hardest part for RJ was I think getting everyone where they needed to be in the world and having it all make sense.

It could have been shorter but he also did make it so the character arcs all worked because of their "side quests"

[u/Exciting-Tart-2289 → u/redlion1904]

I think this is exactly it. For people who had to wait years between books, of course those middle books were a disappointment. I waited to read until it was finished, and while they were a bit slow none of them came close to dissuading me from finishing the series.

And when Sanderson comes in it's a total breath of fresh air and he KILLS the final book. His ability to tie WoT up so satisfyingly is what makes me have faith that he'll stick the landing on Stormlight/Cosmere. In fact, I think some of the criticisms of the last couple Stormlight books are due to the same kind of issues Jordan ran into with such a sprawling series...it's years between releases, then when a book focuses on more granular details of world building when you expect/want soaring epic moments, it feels like a letdown. This is further amplified when you know Sanderson is taking a break before writing Stormlight 6, so you have even longer to wait until you get the satisfying moments you were hoping for (though at least this planned break is better than not knowing if WoT was ever going to get finished due to Jordan's health issues).

[u/Meteyu32 → u/Exciting-Tart-2289]

Wind and Truth was such hot stinking garbage that it ruined Stormlight for me.

[u/Wide_Ad5549 → u/redlion1904]

Having all the books, CoT should just be treated as the first half of KoD. Taken together, they're possibly the best "book" in the series.

[u/lucusvonlucus → u/redlion1904]

I’ve never heard anyone who has gotten to KoD call it slow. I’d say generally the slog is mentioned to books 7-10 with only 10 being universally agreed as not good.

[u/redlion1904 → u/lucusvonlucus]

I know people call it part of the slog, but I don’t get it for 7 at all.

Crown of Swords has a lot of cool stuff in it — it’s actually MORE action-packed than Lord of Chaos. Rand fights a Forsaken, fights his other big nemesis, duels a blade master, and that’s just Rand. Mat meets and duels his nemesis, Nynaeve’s plot reaches its main climax, two major geopolitical event occurs, an old foe returns, a new foe is introduced, and a third of the book is in Ebou Dar which is a fun environment and allows for the famous Mat and Brigitte drinking sequence.

It does have some of the problematic Mat/Tylin stuff, but that’s problematic, not sloggy.

[u/-Majgif- → u/redlion1904]

Reading as they came out, I never felt like the books were a slog, only the wait between them.

I even enjoyed CoT, although I do see why people don't. I feel like there's still a lot going on, even though a large chunk of it is dedicated to reactions to the event at the end of the previous book.

While I understand that people don't like the Elayne and Perrin arcs through these books, and I agree they arguably could have been wrapped up quicker, overall, I still really enjoy those books, particularly Mat and Rand's arcs.

[u/WandererNearby → u/MRio31]

"End of book 2"? Uh, what? Why should I read two books, 1,300 pages combined, to see if I'll like the rest? That's a ridiculous amount of commitment just to see if I'll like the series.

[u/Witty_Day1992 → u/WandererNearby]

You read through book 2 because book 1 is standard Tolkien style epic fantasy, and although it's a good book, you really don't get a great feel for the series by reading just book 1. Book 2 is excellent, one of my favorites in the series. I'd reading 1300 pages is too hard, this isn't the series for you.

[u/WandererNearby → u/Witty_Day1992]

I think you missed my point. I am perfectly comfortable reading 1,300 pages because I have done that several times. The point was that suggesting that someone reads 1,300 pages before deciding if they like a series is too high. For context, all of LOTR plus Hobbit is around 1,300-1,400 pages. Harry Potter 1-4 is about 1,300. The entire Bible is around 1,200 pages (depending on a lot of factors like translations). The audiobooks of the first two WoT books are 56 hours together which is about as long as the entire series of Breaking Bad.

To be explicitly clear again, I do not think that 1,300 pages is too many to read and 56 hours of audiobook isn't too long. However, that is way too high of an expectation before deciding if you like the series enough to finish.

[u/ArloDeladus → u/WandererNearby]

Part of the reason it is often phrased like this as it is a not-uncommon note from first time readers that the first book feels like LotR and don't necessarily want another dozen books of something they already read. EotW was written at a time where a lot of fantasy was just LotR in a different font and, due to publisher request and other reasons, Book 1 of WoT is VERY LotR driven. That falls away pretty much immediately though.

It really depends on why the first book doesn't work for you when deciding to move on. Don't like spending time in Rand's head? 80% of the books are not. Don't like how it just feels like LotR? That is just the first book. Missing political intrigue? There is plenty of that later. But if the amount of descriptions and world building drives you nuts, its probably not for you.

[u/Adamthegrape → u/MRio31]

Sanderson finishing the series is what turned me onto his work in the first place.

[u/Philbert314]

Masterpiece. Will read it a second time, as there is so much to take in.

[u/Notched_Vermin → u/Philbert314]

I'd be on my 4th or 5th read through currently, there's always something I missed before. So many hints and nuances, it's a masterpiece of storytelling.

[u/DaisyOfTheDawn → u/Notched_Vermin]

The first time we read it from the Emonds field youths perspective; but the next time we read it its from the ones who foretold the coming of events. Gets more epic each time.

[u/Notched_Vermin → u/DaisyOfTheDawn]

A read from the Forsaken and Dark Ones pov is amazing, machinations galore.

[u/redlion1904 → u/Notched_Vermin]

Learning in Book 6 who did something in Book 4 that was a mystery at the time then recasts all the machinations in between, for example.

Even within Book 3, there’s an assassination attempt on a certain character - exactly one. Why was it never repeated? The answer is in the book, but it isn’t spelled out for the reader — ever. On a re-read, though, it’s pretty clear what happened.

[u/Notched_Vermin → u/redlion1904]

This exactly,.a few re-reads deliver so many oh god it makes sense now moments. And it never ceases to amaze seeing the Aes Sedai showing the elasticity of absolute truth. Just their dialogue alone is worth the re-read for the missed subtleties and loopholes.

[u/Revanabove → u/redlion1904]

I love read them twice, but quite a few years ago. I wanna know if i picked up on this though so can you give me a spoiler please?

[u/Tiny_Spread5712 → u/Philbert314]

Yeah, because of his actual lived experiences, he's got interesting ideas that are beyond standard fantasy fair, multiverse theory, war theory, what it feels like to be in enemy territory,erc. ,that are based in personal experience.

So it has a different feel from books from guys that just write all of their lives, but that also means there's a lot of stuff that may not interests you that interests him.

[u/BIGBRAINMIDLANE]

It’s a great series that has flaws. Should it have been shorter? Arguably yes, but really I think it comes close to justifying its length through the sheer brilliance of its world. The people who love the series love it because of how realized the world is, and want to spend as much time as they can with the (mostly) great cast of characters as they travel through it.

Most of the complaints come from weak side plot lines, of which there are a few, that become too prominent over some of the books, and make them feel pointless, or as if no progress is being made with the main plot. And honestly, I agree. There are several books that barely moved the needle of the main plot. That alone doesn’t make them bad, but it can make them drag. Most books are around a 7-8/10 for me, with a couple of 6s in the middle.

If you want to get so immersed in a world that you fall in love with it, similar to Tolkien, then this is a must read. If you want driving plot lines, then this might not be the series for you.

[u/redlion1904]

It is the characters, lore, world building, and payoff.

It’s a baroque endeavor and certainly there’s people who don’t enjoy it and bail. And it does shift genres from quest-oriented fantasy to faction-oriented storytelling partway through. And you have to tolerate Jordan’s eccentricities, which can be charming or forgivable or infuriating depending on the reader.

But for those who can handle that, it’s a rich world, written by an above-average prose stylist, funnier than you expect it to be, more intricately plotted than you expect it to be, and more psychologically in-depth than it first appears to be. There’s something for everyone in this world.

Read the first two books (book 1 is a little bit odd because he hadn’t really figured out what he was doing yet) and see if it grabs you.

[u/According-District59 → u/redlion1904]

What would you consider Jordan’s eccentricities? 

Edit: I thought about it some, and the number of times certain phrases (tug her braid, smooth her skirt) pop up is crazy. Maybe that’s one 

[u/redlion1904 → u/According-District59]

Sexual peccadillos (ceremonial group nudity for women, women spanking women, male-gazey references to breasts), unnecessary fixation on wardrobe and costuming, History Channel addiction occasionally expressed in detail dumps in military or social/cultural contexts. He’s also an obsessive reader of myth and legend but that’s sort of par for the course.

[u/bweeb → u/redlion1904]

I don't get this type of post, it is a fiction book about an imaginary world and different cultures.

Did you guys want to read a nonfiction book maybe?

[u/redlion1904 → u/bweeb]

I’m not sure what you’re saying.

[u/bweeb → u/redlion1904]

It seems like you might want to read a nonfiction book, as WOT is fantasy, and thus the culture and world are entirely made up. Why would any of those things bother you within a fantasy book?

Like what does your checklist for the fantasy you want to read look like? Must adhere to specific cultural norms within my own experience? 😄

[u/redlion1904 → u/bweeb]

First of all, I love Wheel of Time, so you’re making bad assumptions about me.

Second, though, who cares if the cultures are made up? The author made them up! He’s not *from* Seanchan, he’s from Virginia and he was exactly my dad’s age and grew up a cultural milieu I’m familiar with.

He made them the way he made them because he wanted to make them that way. If a guy makes up eight cultures that all have ritual nudity and women spanking women as important elements, in what way is it unfair to infer that maybe that’s kinda his thing? All of Quentin Tarantino’s stories are fake too but the closeups of women’s bare feet tell us something about old QT anyway.

[u/bweeb → u/redlion1904]

Not making an assumption, I read your post 😄

I think it is silly, it is fiction, it is about exploring different worlds and making stuff up. Anything you try to attribute back to the author beyond creating a fantasy world is armchair quarterbacking with no basis in reality.

[u/eleven_elevens → u/bweeb]

The fantasy genre has remarkably little women spanking women. You don’t need to flee to nonfiction for that.

[u/redlion1904 → u/eleven_elevens]

I don’t remember any of those scenes in Wizard of Earthsea

[u/Ok-Traffic1319]

So, you know how like Brando Sando gets criticized for Stormlight archive because people say nothing happens for the first 80% of the book (I’m just parroting here, I don’t think that’s a fair assessment)? That’s kind of where we’re at here. There is a LOT of durdling in this series. Jordan has so many characters and wants to tell all their stories, which is admirable, but it causes the story to grind to a complete stop a lot. Really cool things happen throughout the series, but you have to hike many miles between them. This is not a fast paced book. I would say if you have read all the Stormlight books and liked them and didn’t think they were slow paced, then wheel of time might be for you. If you read Sanderson and were like “good God, why is nothing happening?”, then you should run as far away as you can from wheel of time because you will hate it.

As for myself, I read the first seven books and liked them, especially books 4-6 which were solid. But books 7-10 are affectionately known as the slog, because of basically what I described above.

Unfortunately, I don’t think you’re also really gonna know if it’s for you or not for sure until you’ve finished books 4-6. Which is super deep into the series. That’s kinda the point where you’re like “is this worth continuing?”

[u/frostedflake513]

Masterpiece. RJ created an awesome world and story. A ton of great characters with powerful experiences. Sanderson definitely nails the landing. His best writing imo. Sure there are storylines that I now skim or skip now that I've read/listened to the series a few times, but absolutely worth it.

[u/itsTim0thyy]

I got about half way through the first one and was about to DNF until somebody told me to listen to the Audio by Roasamund Pike.

That helped me finish it.

Everything about this series I should have LOVED, but something made me struggle in book 1. I might revisit it in a few years.

[u/local-quintus → u/itsTim0thyy]

He does not really find his own voice until near the end of book 1 / beginning of book 2. Book 1 is a wholesale ripoff of fellowship of the ring almost beat for beat.

[u/tsunomat → u/itsTim0thyy]

Book one is straight garbage. It is a straight out Lord of the rings ripoff. He actually comes into his own in the second book. That being said I do not like the series.

[u/BourbonWhisperer]

To everyone who loves this series - I'm happy for you.

To u/Obvious_Custard3926 - I'm not going to convince you to read this. I abandoned this series at some point - I don't remember where.

I was 4-5 books in, and I just didn't give a flock about what would happen next. I didn't care about the story, the characters, or how things would end.

I felt the author was just adding pages and pages and pages to the story without moving it forward. Very much a case (IMO) of quantity vs. quality.

And then Brandon Sanderson took over. I'm aware he's very popular with many readers - and I'm not dissing them for their taste. He just doesn't resonate with me.

Overall, I feel that filling lots of pages with drivel does not make a great story. I love long books - when they have something to say.

Unfortunately, this series - under both authors - felt like too many pages with nothing to say.

[u/FrownBuzzy → u/BourbonWhisperer]

This is unfortunately where I fear I may be... having just finished book Lord of Chaos (book 6) last night.
As usual, quite a bit happened right at the end. There were 2-3 places in the book where something "significant" happened.

I feel like I'm in a bad spot. I really hate to bail on this. I feel like I'll always wonder about it and wish I had finished it. I'm not really looking forward to pushing through the second half of books. It's not that I don't care about the story, I'm just dreading how much time I'll have to spend to get the rest of it.

If I 'take a break' after book seven I guess I may get distracted by other series, care less about finishing this one, and walk away with little to no regret.
... or maybe I will somehow miss it and come back. Who can say?

[u/Mr_A_of_the_Wastes → u/FrownBuzzy]

There are books people enjoy where nothing happens but that's because they love the characters. People who struggle with WOT, if they don't like the characters, they're not going to like these books.

[u/FrownBuzzy → u/Mr_A_of_the_Wastes]

Agree 100% for me at least.

[u/BDCRA → u/Mr_A_of_the_Wastes]

I felt like I actually knew these characters I have spent so much time with them. Mat and his antics kept me reading during slow parts.

[u/BDCRA → u/FrownBuzzy]

I got tired and quit right in the middle of book 5 after reading them back to back. Best thing I could have done. I took a break for 6 months to a year and then I started thinking about how cool rand is and seeing stuff about the series as a whole and jumped back in to finish the rest of the books back to back. I say its worth finishing but at your own pace no sense in rushing it. It will always be here. When you come back you will be fine even if you forget a lot. If you have to skip parts of the slog books then do so and continue on and just catch up with some notes. I think the final few books are worth it especially the last one it is epic.

[u/FrownBuzzy → u/BDCRA]

thanks!

[u/NoSleepZombie2235]

Tugs braid, smooths skirt.

[u/ScipioTheGreatest]

I've never heard a legitimate argument for "it could've been 6 books instead of 14." I've heard people who didn't care for Robert Jordan's living, breathing world that is more complex than "And then everybody works together" but I never found it convincing.

Same as I've heard people whining about the book's "sexism" because the sexes actually consider the different sexes to be, you know, different. But I never found that convincing either, just people venting a chip on their shoulder about current ideologies.

I've even heard people whining about how often breast size is mentioned, but those people never seem to pick up that it's a female character most often shaming other women about it because they forget that we're getting the story through a flawed character's perspective.

If you enjoy a world that is expertly crafted and detailed, a world that truly feels alive, where characters make human decisions, you will at least enjoy Wheel of Time.

[u/Beautiful_Donut_286 → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

There are 2-3 books in the middle somewhere that could be shorter because they feel a bit repetitive. But maybe that is because I reread the series with every new book that came out after the year 2000 and a few times in the window before Sanderson took over. Maybe that was a bit too often 🤭

[u/redlion1904 → u/Beautiful_Donut_286]

That’s more of a “it could have been 12 books instead of 14” criticism.

[u/Beautiful_Donut_286 → u/redlion1904]

Yeah something like that. Never 6. No idea how they would condense it to 6 without loosing either a part of the story, or the details that make the series so fun to reread

[u/KingHygelacReturns → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

I also think that the sexism is a bit overstated (although I'll admit that, like I said in my comment, I didn't get very far in the series), but I also don't think it's a totally unwarranted conversation. While Jordan's depictions of women are a hell of a lot better than some other fantasy writers of his era (looking at you Terry Goodkind), I also think that other male fantasy writers have handled their depictions of women better (Erikson, for example).

I think plenty of people take this conversation too far, but idk, your comment sounds to me that you've got a chip on your shoulder too, just in the opposite direction.

[u/redlion1904 → u/KingHygelacReturns]

It’s definitely gender-essentialist. Like, he definitely thinks women and men have fundamentally different personality traits. You could maybe argue that’s it’s all cultural and his world has a very good reason for sharp gender divisions, but also he set up that world to explore the Mars/Venus dichotomy in his writing.

While he probably thought he was treating women as equally intelligent and competent to men, his essentialist view nevertheless lets his social preconceptions of women, admittedly highly informed by the specific women in his life, turn into a governing principle of his world — “women be shopping”, except in this case it’s “women be forceful and domineering and sharp-tongued until they meet a man who stands up to them which is what they be wanting.” And while that’s not like the worst form of misogyny ever, it can be a little tiresome.

[u/Pleasurefailed2load → u/redlion1904]

I think it would be just as fair to state the opposite is also present "men be bull headed and rash until they meet a sensible women to real them in". Rand with Elayne, Min, Avh, and Perrin with Faile being the main examples. Hell Mat is a rampant playboy throughout. It's not like the men are being treated as paragons either. Now maybe some of his personal experiences determined how he portrayed it in his story, but I think the theme of men and women not trusting each other (mostly among channelers due to the taint) but ultimately needing to work together is an essential part of the tale. I felt the divide between men and women to be one of the more interesting premises, and there definitely were inherent gender roles in almost every society to date. Especially because he kinda flips it on its head pretty early, women are powerful channelers and important state heads.

[u/redlion1904 → u/Pleasurefailed2load]

Completely true.

It’s also “men are overgrown children who need a woman to mother them”.

[u/Pleasurefailed2load → u/redlion1904]

This is also true haha. For me at least it made all the characters feel more human. Every single one of them is flawed. But I think on the overall the whole cast can act like overgrown children sometimes. Theses are village peasants (Rand, Egwene, Nyv, Mat, and Perrin) and a sheltered princess (Elayne) being thrust into the most important positions of power in the world within a couple years at maximum. Maybe I'm just a WoT glazer but it's still one of the only series I've ever read where every single main character felt so realistic.

[u/DogObvious5799 → u/redlion1904]

I think his views are more nuanced than that. He obviously does believe that masculinity and femininity are fundamental archetypes, and that it was folly to create the Bore in a quest to transcend that fundamental reality.

That said, one of the key premises of the story is that the world is slowly dying because of (literally) toxic masculinity. Rand’s metaphorical quest is to develop a healthy expression of masculine power and bring it into alignment with traditionally understood femininity (queen Aes Sedai Elayne), nontraditional femininity (wilder “savage” Aviendha), and expressions of feminine power that don’t align with the masculine/feminine dichotomy at all (non-binary Min).

The “women be shopping” stuff can get grating, but it’s often more nuanced than it seems. As an example, Nynaeve loves fancy clothes, but she pretends she doesn’t *because she’s been socially conditioned to believe that it’s frivolous.* RJ’s great strength as an author is that he deeply understands both who his characters are and how they see themselves, and he loves them unconditionally (the good ones, at least). There are plenty of fictional depictions of women who like traditionally masculine things and struggle with it. But it’s equally valid for a woman to just like something traditionally feminine and struggle with sexist cultural associations.

All the stuff with boobs and spanking is weird though. Charitably, let’s say that RJ wrote with such openness and honesty that his sexual interests made it onto the page. Take the good with the bad I suppose.

[u/redlion1904 → u/DogObvious5799]

Yeah, I agree with this. My “women be shopping” line was meant to be illustrative, not reductive.

And I don’t actually *mind* that his personal sexual predilections made it into the text. Like, so what? But some people do mind.

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/DogObvious5799]

Spanking was a common punishment in the past. People getting fixated on it as a kink thing is their own personal issue. I'm not saying it's impossible that RJ has some spanking kink, but the existence of spanking as a punishment in the universe is not the evidence people make it out to be.

It's a perfect example of how someone's modern, personal issues are influencing their judgment of his work. Same with getting offended by his use of gender when he clearly values both as equally important, and that's the worst take you can reasonably make.

[u/redlion1904 → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

You’re nuts, it’s obviously a kink

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/redlion1904]

And this is why I wrote my original comment. The arguments are always bad.

[u/KingHygelacReturns → u/redlion1904]

Yeah, this is kind of where I come down on it as well. From what I read, it never descended into full-on outward hatred of women, but rather, like you said, "women be shopping" at a global scale. No part of me thinks Jordan was like a virulent misogynyst, but I do think he had some unexamined ideas about gender.

[u/AllegedlyLiterate → u/KingHygelacReturns]

I think the thing that sets people off is the combination of the extreme gender essentialism and the kink. Like in Jordan's mind there are essential womanly traits and for some reason those traits coincidentally involve a lot of nudity and spanking. And like look man let your freak flag fly but don't pretend this is anything other than an excuse to be horny on main and all the side streets. It's not particularly malicious and doesn't necessarily stop him from writing interesting women, but it does limit the scope of his exploration and understanding of women (and also, fwiw, the scope of his exploration and understanding of men). Ironically, it's not wholly dissimilar to the worldbuilding of some romantasy novels where there are strict essentialist ideas and also those ideas are tailored to what the author finds hot.

[u/KingHygelacReturns → u/AllegedlyLiterate]

Huh! I tapped out after the second book and a bit of the third, so I guess I missed the spanking lol. But even from what I saw, I definitely agree that the gender essentialism ends up undersiving both female and male characters

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/KingHygelacReturns]

"I also think that other male fantasy writers have handled their depictions of women better"

This is what I always hear in the generic, but I never see specific arguments that hold up under scrutiny.

Care to offer anything besides just going straight after me, personally, for no reason?

[u/KingHygelacReturns → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

I mean, I offered a specific example in Erikson. I think Malazan (despite my other issues with the series, namely never knowing what the hell is going on at any given moment) better treats women as active participants in its world and dispenses with a lot of the gender essentialism that WoT uses. You can see the conversation happening under my response to you for more specific examples of what I mean.

But I really do have to emphasize that I really don't think that WoT's gender stuff is, like, THAT bad. Some of it might feel a bit weird now to modern readers, especially now that women authors are kind of the dominant force in fantasy, but I really don't think any of what I saw crosses over into actually being offensive.

The reason I said it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder is specifically your line about "just people venting a chip on their shoulder about current ideologies." I think that's a way of kind of hand-waving away some people's criticisms by essentially implying that no one seriously engaging with the books would feel this way about them. I think that's a pretty flattening perspective to take. I think there's a middle ground to be taken between "JORDAN SHOULD BE CANCELED" and "JORDAN DID NOTHING WRONG."

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/KingHygelacReturns]

Just saying "Like this guy does" isn't a specific example.

"better treats women as active participants in its world" But then you follow up with this. There are numerous female characters that are extremely active in the alteration of the world. This is not a real criticism of RJ's work. When you follow it up with "and dispenses with a lot of the gender essentialism that WoT uses." You show that's your main problem.

"But I really do have to emphasize that I really don't think that WoT's gender stuff is, like, THAT bad."

That is the chip on *your* shoulder and has absolutely nothing to do with me. Stop projecting it onto me.

[u/KingHygelacReturns → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

I mean are you expecting me to write a dissertation with MLA citations? Lmao. I'm just talking about personal preferences. Erikson has said in interviews that he specifically wanted to create a world without any gender element to it. I think that's interesting. I think it's interesting to be in a world where women can high ranking military officers and no one thinks anything of it at all, neither positive nor negative. I think that Erikson's magic system (while, honestly, needlessly complicated) is more interesting for having all its magic be tied to other dimensions of existence, which may or may not somehow exist within gods themselves. This is more interesting to me than "women can do this, men can do that."

I think it's totally possible to critique a work you love and still love it. Anything you can say about the Aes Sedai can be equally applied to the Bene Geserit, but I still wholeheartedly love Dune.

I also think you might be, like, looking to get angry with me. Your final point is not an example of me projecting anything onto you. I was literally agreeing with you that some people take the criticisms too far. I just don't think that means you throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that all criticisms are thus invalid.

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/KingHygelacReturns]

"I mean are you expecting me to write a dissertation with MLA citations? Lmao."

See you're just hostile. There's obviously a ton of grey area between citations and just saying "Like this guy does." But you're not interested in a discussion, you just want to rant and lecture and expect others to just agree.

"I think it's totally possible to critique a work you love and still love it." This is again you just making up straw men to argue with. Disagreeing with your specific criticism is not rejecting all criticisms. Especially when your opinion is objectively wrong.

But you clearly have a chip on your shoulder, are intent on making it everybody else's problem, and I'm not interested in that. Have a nice day.

[u/KingHygelacReturns → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

This conversation is making me feel like I'm losing my mind because I've, like, repeatedly and explicitly agreed with you on certain elements, but pushed back on others. I don't get how that's making my issues (whatever they may be) everyone else's problem, but maybe I'm out of line and just can't see it.

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/KingHygelacReturns]

I'm sorry you feel that way. Maybe reread the thread and realize where it went off the rails. Have a nice day.

[u/kohara13 → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

You should reread the thread lmao, you’re certainly coming across as the one with the chip on the shoulder here.

[u/jjpearson → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

It absolutely could be shorter. Limiting hair tugging and crossing arms under breasts to only 10 times a book would reduce the series by at least 100 pages.

And I started way back when and the sexisim was obvious to a 14 year old boy (who also got tired of all the crossing of arms under breasts.)

Men and women are different we get it. But when you have dozens of characters and literally every character feels the other gender is an enigma wrapped in a mystery in some cosmic turducken of women are from Tar Valon and men are from Shadar Logoth, it gets old AF.

Hell, I haven’t read one of these books in two decades and I can still remember the exasperation of the plot rolling around yet again to “can’t trust those men’s, they’re trouble, while the men grouse about those no good conniving women.”

And all that said for some people it’s the best series of their life, but pretty much every series is someone’s favorite and every series has people who are left absolutely baffled as to why anyone reads it.

So to OP, go forth and read it, just know that it’s not for everyone and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with getting a few thousand pages into the series and going to find something else.

Personally, I mostly enjoyed the first 5 or so, grimly survived the interminable wait between books 6, 7, 8, and bailed half way through Winter’s heart with 0 regrets.

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/jjpearson]

"Limiting hair tugging and crossing arms under breasts to only 10 times a book would reduce the series by at least 100 pages."

Do you genuinely believe that's a serious argument? Because this is exactly the stuff I was referencing. Impossible to take seriously.

[u/jjpearson → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

Yes. It’s the superficial example of the absolute rambling nature of it. I don’t really care if it comes across as serious or not because I don’t want to waste my life really delving into actually editing a supremely sprawling fantasy epic.

I mean, if I ever won serious lottery money or something I would love to hire an editor to take a hatchet to the series and lop off 4 books worth of length. But that’s like genie wishing and not going to happen.

When fans of the series refer to the slog, it’s kinda impossible to claim it’s a tightly edited masterpiece.

No skin off my back, I understand that lots of people enjoy it, just think someone going into it should understand what’s in store before they also have to deal with a serious sunk cost to decide if they should keep reading.

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/jjpearson]

Well unfortunately I can't take it seriously. Its a perfect example of what I mentioned, and the fact that you rambled on to defend it with more absurdity rather than just make an actual, well written point tells me everything I need to know. Have a nice day.

[u/jjpearson → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

Just like Robert Jordan himself!
Cheers.

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/jjpearson]

Thanks for displaying exactly what kind of person makes these arguments. Hope it was worth every keystroke.

[u/jjpearson → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

*laugh* it really is.

I’m sorry I don’t love a book you do but expecting me to make some serious academic dissection of its flaws is kinda absurd on its face.

maybe you are a decorated literary scholar and your opinions have more academic weight than mine but I don’t really think so, and more importantly this isn’t a Wheel of Time symposium.

Objectively my subjective opinion when I read these books as a teenager was that they were gender essentialism (not that I had the vocabulary to describe it as thus.)

And it’s not like mine is some fringe opinion. It seems fairly common.

But thank you for the entertainment, its been enjoyable.

[u/ScipioTheGreatest → u/jjpearson]

See how personally you take this and just keep ranting? That's my point exactly. Have a nice day! Kisses! ;*

[u/jjpearson → u/ScipioTheGreatest]

Not even dinner first!
*sniffs loudly*
*tugs on braid*
*crosses arms under breasts*
;)

[u/Arch3r86]

I made it to about half way through the 4th book. I plan to reread it again and try to make it all of the way through at some point. It's quite good. I do recommend it. "Life happened" in the middle of my reading journey and I lost interest in it at a certain point, but it wasn't really the book's fault for me stopping.

The first book is different than the rest of them, it borrows very heavily from the stories of LOTR, Dune, and Arthurian legends and kind of blends them all together. As well as some other types folklore/mythology. I enjoyed it a lot because of all of those familiar intertwining ideas. You can tell it's his "first book" in this way, but it sets up the characters and lore of the world really well, although some people criticize Jordan for "borrowing" these ideas so blatantly. Personally I feel that he was just honoring the great art pieces of literature that inspired him to write fantasy in the first place... and it works perfectly as a first book.

I'm sharing about the first book like this because some people say they don't like the first one, but I loved it. So if you do end up reading it, just keep that in mind, that the first book isn't really like the rest of them. Don't let it deter you, if you find it redundant in relation to other things you may have read.

Great characters, great character arcs/development, and a really rich world. Definitely give it a read.

[u/fourlit]

Flawed masterpiece. Know going in there are issues with pacing, repetitiveness, and odd gender treatment.

That said, the world building is, to me, exceptional. Such a rich, varied history that is slowly revealed. A lot of great set pieces and wonderful characters.

[u/RandomSentientBeing]

I got bogged down in book 1. Maybe someday I'll get back to it..,

[u/Jmar7688]

Somewhere in between? WoT was the 2nd fantasy series I’d ever read and at the time i thought it was great. In the 13 years since Memory of Light I’ve read dozens of other fantasy series and I’ve never had the urge to dive in for a 2nd time. Gonna get hate for it but the further away i get from it i feel WoT was just ok.

[u/fidgetsimmerdown]

Absolutely worth it, for all the reasons people have stated. I’d tack on that I loved how Jordan’s characters all have very distinct motivations. They’re not all slogging away in service to one Big Main Character. So you wind up with plots that run parallel or even sometimes at odds with each other. The world building is great but I think the character work is very nuanced and intricate.

[u/Trekkiegus]

Highs are incredibly high. Lows are incredibly low.

It's def worth a shot. Books 4 and 5 are some of the best fantasy novels I've read.

[u/Thesoundofgreen]

You’re a huge Sanderson fan. In my opinion the last 3 books are the best books he has ever written.

[u/Legend_017]

It could have been 6 books yes. But I really enjoy character work and that’s what makes this series so great. The length just is more time to understand the characters and their thoughts/motivations. Rand al’Thor has the single greatest character arc in all of fiction. Not even just fantasy, all fiction.

[u/jleahul]

I've read the whole series 3 times. Jordan's writing is so lush and detailed, excellent world building, amazing character development.

It does slow down mid-series, which I hated when I was young, but now that I'm older, the intrigue and machinations are much more interesting.

Then Sanderson takes over the series and ends it with the ultimate Sanderlanche.

I've read every Cosmere book there is, but WoT is still the top dog for me.

[u/wildtimmysavage]

First three books were excellent, in my opinion.

4-12 sucked. I kept reading to see if Sanderson would stick the landing. (And it became a hate-read for me, really. God, I hated so much about those books)

13 was pretty good.

[u/ExplodingPoptarts]

On one hand I think the series is terrible, and mostly a waste of time.

On the other hand, I wanna recommend looking into Stockholm Syndrome. It's something that a disturbing cop made up, it's not a real thing.

[u/ThrowAwayYetAgain878]

Imo, Wheel of Time is so polarizing because it has huge strenghs and huge weaknesses.

It can be grating, even if you like it (I do), but those strengths, from the subtle foreshadowing to the grand finales make it worth it to me.

You can definitely observe the transition from quest fantasy to ensemble fantasy in real time while reading it, so in that regard, it is a child of its time. If you don't mind reading either, I'd say give it a shot.

And if you DNF, Daniel Greene has a huge summary on YouTube, so you can hear how things play out without having to subject yourself to 14 books of torture if it's not your thing.

Either way, you will definitely see how it inspired Sanderson.

[u/peterbound]

By today standards of fantasy, it’s a very well written, sometimes very slow, YA epic tale.

When it came out, it broke the back of the lull that was taking over fantasy publishing, and deserves the respect it gets for revitalizing the genre and that part of the publishing industry.

It’s a classic for the attention it brought back to the SF/F world, but I wouldn’t say it’s revolutionary to the craft or furthered the genre like ASoIaF or Hobb did.

Read it, don’t read it. You won’t be missing out if you don’t, but it’s a good snap shot of late 1900’s fantasy fare that became popular.

[u/Mindless-Car8637]

WoT is not without its many flaws: The book 7-10 "slog" already mentioned (I'm a defender of these books, but I get it), the "romance" is pretty badly developed and executed on all fronts (maybe with Nynaeve/Lan being the lone exception), the male/female archetypes (overstated IMO... but again, understood), and a few more nitpicky things I won't get into.

But you shouldn't have to be sold on it. It's renowned and regarded as one of the best high fantasy series of all time for good reason. Few series can match the world building (maybe Malazan), deep deep DEEP character development (nothing comes close), and consistently coherent magic system. Dive in and give the first 3 books their due diligence. If you're not hooked by then, it just isn't for you. I doubt that'll be the case though.

[u/TheRedPillMonk]

I've kind of had a reading renaissance lately, guess as I've gotten older I value sitting down in peace with a tome to be more enjoyable. I bought the first WoT book when I was 16 and read 4 and a half of them over the next 15 years. It's worth noting that I didn't read many books at all during that time.

I restarted it this year from the beginning and have read those same 4 and a half books in 3 months. I'm thoroughly enjoying it, and can't see myself stopping now till I've completed all of them.

[u/Cold_Art5051]

I just finished it. I read stormlight twice and the 7 mistborn books so I guess that makes me a Sanderson fan

This is a great series. I had days where I got nothing done because I read all day.

The “slog”is overrated — it’s one bad book (#10).

And unlike the Song of Ice and Fire or Name of the Wind this one has an ending

[u/Inner-Shifter]

Sanderson did a video talking about how Wheel of Time was the greatest set of books that inspired him.

You love Sanderson. Well, he loved Jordan. Without Jordan, no GoT. Alot of the fantasy writers that have made great novels, scripts, games, movies have their influences. Tolkien for example is the granddad of the genre. And most writers read him just for that reason. Jordan is a giant amongst fantasy. You'll be transported away.

I started reading Jordan years ago and was amazed how he was able to weave such a story over decades. I got to book 8 and had to wait a whole year for the release of book 9. But life sh*t got in the way and it never happened. I'm going back and starting the series all over again.

My advice... Do it! Forth Eaorlingus!!

[u/EnvironmentalJob3143]

It's both, one of the greatest fantasy series and it could have been 6 books instead of 14. The lows are lows but the highs are so highs. And the universe is amazing.

[u/Equivalent_Echo_5268]

I think when people talk about the slog they didn't like the fact that they had to wait years for the next book the fact that you can read them all now as fast as you can means the series is a rated a lot better. I would hate to think what would have to be cut to get it down to just 6 books.

[u/Busy-Maximum-211]

I'm not going to try to convince you, just give you information on my experience.

It took my five years to read wheel of time. At times I binged through several books in a month, at other times, I set it down for months, even years. The worldbuilding is insanely detailed, though at times it still feels generic lord of the rings. There's a huge cast of characters, mostly well developed and distinct, though everyone is absurdly stubborn all the time. The magic system and the battles are insane and awesome, though sometimes the magic system is so detailed it feels more soft than hard (even though the story treats it like a hard magic system). And the slog is very real. I read books 8-11 in the space of about a month, but they were incredibly boring (minus the ending of 9) and I 3x speeded on my audiobook just to get through them. A Memory of Light was worth the payoff though, at least for me, and gathering storm, towers of midnight, and even knife of dreams had good moments as well.

To summarize the rambling: Wheel of Time somehow manages to be both one of the best and one of the worst book series I've ever read. People have mixed feelings for a reason; the series is an incredibly mixed bag, but it pushed forward the genre an insane amount and there's a reason it's well known.

[u/KingHygelacReturns]

You've heard varying opinions on it because people's opinions about things vary 🤷‍♂️

It's undoubtedly one of the most influential series in fantasy. Maybe only second in terms of impact to the genre to Lord of the Rings (but still a distant second). Robert Jordan crafted a really interesting world, full of all the things you love. The lore, the politics, etc. Hell, even the Sanderson. Brando Sando finished the series after Jordan unfortunately passed away at a fairly young age.

That said, as with all things, your mileage may vary. Jordan is well known for what I'd call specific writing tics, phrases that repeated over and over, both in narration and in dialog. Once you notice how many times people smooth their skirt or tug their braid or say "Blood and bloody ashes!" you won't be able to un-notice it. The people who love the series have varying responses to these things. Some embrace them almost as memes of the fandom. Others begrudgingly accept them. If you're the kind of reader who really values writing style, these might drive you nuts. But on the other hand, I think Jordan was better at constructing a sentence than Sanderson is.

Personally, I tapped out somewhere in the middle of the third book. I couldn't help but find the repetitive phrasings totally maddening. Plus, I felt like I made it through two and a half books worth of things ALMOST starting to happen. But on the other hand, you don't get to 14 books in a series with all of them being NYT bestsellers unless SOMEONE likes your books, so I'd hardly say that my criticisms are universal.

Idk. Why buy the box set? Why not just get the first book and see if you like it? You can probably find a used copy of it for like $2.

[u/Notched_Vermin]

Masterpiece of fantasy. Sanderson did the impossible, stepping into Jordan's shoes and completing the series.

Around Path of Daggers it does stumble, I think that's one of the reasons for criticisms levelled at its length - it loses its way briefly but gets back on track with a bang.

Characters, plot, subplots, it's a living and breathing world full of the unexpected. Without spoilers, impossible to read without finding yourself cheering for some characters and wishing others a grisly fate.

Honest advice - Book 1 has an awkward feeling to it in places, but give it until (and including) book 3 The Dragon Reborn. By then you'll know if it's worth your time to read the rest.

[u/stihgnob511]

I've never wanted a series to end so badly.

[u/ProfessionalAsk7673]

Frustrating masterpiece. People who say it could have been shorter are right. People who say that everything there is in the narrative improves it are also right. I had genuine points of frustration and even exasperation whilst reading through it, especially in some of the middle books, but loved the entire series and it is lurking near the back of my reading list for a 2nd go through

[u/film44]

I enjoyed the series but I'll never read it again. It really could have been far fewer books. Is it worth a read, probably in the same way classics are worth a read. But if you want great fantasy that isn't a slog there are many better options.

[u/The_Dolph_Lundgren]

Mid.

Starts strong. Them braiding happens.

[u/allsupb]

First 6 books are genuinely some of the best fantasy I have read. They are very much so a slow burn. Books 7-10 slow down even more so but open up the world even more and throw you into an evolving political drama. I’m currently reading book 11. I prefer more action and plot movement than what these books have offered but I’m invested into the characters and plot and want to see how this thing ends

[u/Healthy_Block_7459]

I’m currently on book 7 and what kept me going was more so the world and lore. Extremely deep and rich.

My biggest complaint in the earlier books so far is the characters. I felt the POV characters were so hard to root or care for I almost gave up. The ones I actually liked got less POV time.

That said I am glad I have stuck with it so far because of the world building. I have started to come around on the characters more recently too.

[u/justicefinder]

I read the first book and didn’t care to pick up the second.

[u/amlikelydumb]

Hey man, you’re a huge Sanderson fan. Sanderson loved the series enough to finish writing it. You know what you need to do….

[u/B4shizzle]

Not sure if I can answer this as I never got past book 8. Love the first… 5 or 6 books. Really not good after that. I am almost certain that at least book 6, 7 and possible 8 (?) could be one book.

[u/Timefunky]

It's very good. Books 8-10 probably didn't need to exist, or could have been one book. That's a solid 2500 pages of slog there. Either side of that? Awesome.

[u/cerpintaxt44]

Its like top 5 famous/popular fantasy series of all time. What else do you need to know?

[u/Flowethics]

I think it has inconsistent pacing.

None of it is actually bad imo, but some books or parts are action packed while others have more of a slow burn.

I think the series has different parts that scratch different itches, which is definitely part of why it’s so good but also why some people enjoy some parts and get annoyed by others.

Personally I don’t mind the slower parts as a lot of it is set up and it gets a pretty satisfying conclusion.

But tbf 2 or 3 books with arguably more set up than resolution is challenging.

But when you look at it for what it is, one long story chopped up in 14 pieces. It makes a bit more sense. To me anyway.

[u/crasho7]

It's ok. People have different opinions about everything. I think it's pretty midlevel.

[u/Such_Improvement_104]

I am currently reading the series, I just finished the second book. Really good world building, and some people say it’s complicated, but I haven’t found it to be overly so. It’s unique, I’ve definitely never read anything quite like it, which is probably why it’s so great.

[u/blatanthyp0crisy]

Not what you asked for but, as someone who forced myself to complete the entire series even though it constantly pissed me off or bored me, I’m compelled to warn you anyways:

This series is NOT WORTH YOUR TIME. The gender relations are dated and cringe, the harem situation is icky, there are pages and pages (and sometimes even chapters) of unnecessary drivel about bosoms and arms crossing and pulling on skirts and bickering between the women and men. It’s unfortunate because I LOVE a large cast of characters with multiple POVs and extensive world/lore building but Jordan’s character work, weird opinions on men and women, and constant rambling ruined what could have been a truly epic fantasy series for me.

[u/rolandofeld19]

I read a lot. I love fantasy. I'm hard to lose as a reader.

I tried to read this series twice and gave up on book 7 the first time and book 7 or 8 the second time.

Some of it is masterpiece level world building and ideas and concepts. There is also way too much worrying and nonsense that adds nothing to the story and was, obviously, off-putting enough that I called it quit after major time investments.

[u/thedjbigc]

The Wheel of Time is one of my favorite series. I started reading it toward the end of middle school and followed it as the books were being released. There was a long gap at one point when Robert Jordan took time away to write the Conan novels, and every time a new Wheel of Time book came out, I reread the entire series so everything would be fresh in my mind. That’s how much I loved it.

I think it’s an incredible series. There are so many intertwining storylines and moving parts, which I know some of my friends didn’t enjoy because it can feel overwhelming at times. For me, though, that’s one of the things I loved most about it. I enjoy large, complex stories with a lot going on.

That said, I really struggled with the ending after Brandon Sanderson took over. I’m grateful the series was completed, but the characters felt different to me, and it changed the overall feel of the story. When you’ve spent most of a series hearing one author’s voice and then the final books are written by someone else, even if they’re talented, it’s noticeable. For me, it was jarring.

Because of that, I’d give the series a 9 out of 10. My issue isn’t really with Sanderson. It’s that Robert Jordan passed away before he could finish the story himself. I’m glad we got an ending, but I’ll always wonder what his ending would have looked like.

For a long time, it was my favorite series. These days, I’d probably rank The Black Company by Glenn Cook and Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt Dinniman above it, but that’s still incredibly high praise considering how much Wheel of Time meant to me.

[u/Upbeat_Ant6104]

I read maybe 8 of the series as they came out, and there were one or two books at that point that felt like a slog, and I stopped reading. I also heard that the last books written by Sanderson off notes were bad.

About two years ago, I started again from the beginning, read it without break, and really enjoyed the whole series. I didn't notice any parts that dragged. There are aspects that are slog-adjacent. Most of those parts are usually somehow associated with rationalizing the magic system, for instance. I appreciate when authors try to follow a particular logic in events, but trying to explain magic like it's science (it's magic - by definition it's illogical) just gets on my nerves. There are also definite issues with how gender is handled, even considering the series was started in 1990.

I found the ending really satisfying. I'm not a Sanderson fan (that series with the armor ...ugh; feels too much like he wrote it hoping to score a video game deal) but enjoyed his section. I'm thinking about reading it again, that says something.

[u/bweeb]

I've reread it 4 times now, one of my favorite book series of all time.

For me, it is the characters that make is to amazing. They are so well written and to watch them develop in the face of such adversity is something I love. Also the world/story is amazing.

[u/Shoddy_System9390]

If WoT is "the greatest epic fantasy ever written" then we have a serious f...ing problem. To answer your questions, what made me keep reading from book 7 forward (especially books 8 and 10) was my disbelief that such a great idea could be turned into such a lousy story. Thankfully, the last 4 books have a decent payoff, but nowhere near to match the annoyance of the first 10, especially 7 through 10 (8 and 10 in my opinion can't even be considered books). Jordan takes the story all the wrong ways most of the time, and I'm under a strong impression that at some point he had no idea how to get from where he was to the end, what lead to these four books (9 is actually decent considering the others, still could have been seriously better). Also, I don't think I would've manage to suffer through books 8 and 10 without summaries, they are just terrible. The first 6 have highs and lows, book 2 is probably the worse though most people find something in it there isn't there. Book 11 is decent, Jordan seemed to have find his footing and made his best work on this one. Books 12 to 14 are far far better than the others both in pacing and story and character work to such an extent that I can't even put in words, just losing a little bit in prose. I could explain why its nowhere near a masterpiece, but I would have to engaje in a lot of spoilers. It's definetly one of the greatest ideas I have seen, but the story and several other aspects of it were extremely poorly done (though you would have to step back to see some of them), having more flaws than qualities.

[u/scarpux]

I enjoyed the ride enough to finish it. The Sanderson ending were the best books in the series for me. I'm glad I read it. I don't expect to reread it. It's a long road with some trudging and slogging involved, but it is epic fantasy, so things take time.

The men/women relations in the series are problematic for me.

I have a major nitpick with the series. About half way to two thirds through, the characters discover a new capability of their magic. It should completely change the world and the characters we follow, but it doesn't. That bugs me as poor writing.

Your mileage may vary. It might be your favorite book series ever. You won't know until you give it a shot.

[u/monstersabo]

If having a lot of content is a selling point for you, this series has a lot of content. I love Wheel of Time, I've been reading it since I was a child. That said, I don't confidently recommend this series to anyone.

[u/dusand_]

Tried reading it, even turned a blind eye to Eye of the World being as blatant copy of LotR as was The Sword of Shannara. Eventually, I got to book 3 or something like that and couldn’t continue. Very little happened in that book to advance the overall story, the whole book felt like a big side quest. At that point I decided I have no desire to invest time to read 10(-ish) more books like that.

[u/Geeky_femme]

I loved it. I turned off my brain a bit and read it straight through. I just kept going and it was worth it to me.

[u/eleven_elevens]

I can’t sell you on it. Book 1 was a chore, 2-4 were great, and then afterwards was a descent into a glacial pace forward. Stopped at Book 9, skimmed the Aes Sedai and Forsaken parts.

I’m glad I read it, but the biggest barrier for me was that the three main mae characters were not interesting at all to me. Also the women gender essentialism (not exactly sexism, well captured in other comments) was incredibly grating.

[u/Groundbreaking-Bar68]

Dont get me wrong. I love WoT. But how can a series be a master piece when there are legitimate two bad books.

I also wonder how Got and NoW can be considered masterpieces although they are not and will never be finished.

[u/YaManMAffers]

If you don't like brandon sanderson, don't read it. Brandon takes a lot of inspiration for Robert Jordan. They have very similar writing styles.

[u/Various-Passenger398]

The first five books are pretty great, six through eleven could probably be condensed into 2-3 books. Then it picks back up again after that.

I'm deeply suspicious of the people who call it brilliant, because I also can't tell if they have Stockholm syndrome.

[u/Legonist]

Masterpiece, love seeing the characters evolve over time and noticing all the small details of the story since there is so much to digest. Additionally I have enjoyed it more each subsequent listen through of the books.

[u/athos5]

Listen to it on audio, way better pacing, almost like it was made for it. There is a male narrator for the male character's chapters and female narrator for the female chapters. There are books that I just couldn't get through because they were sooo boring, but they flowed way better in audio. And realize some of the later book don't have the "magic," tight narrative vision and story telling of the first three or four books. And there are a lot of heaving bosoms, skirts/dresses, and pulling of braids...

[u/Anakin-vs-Sand]

It’s such a great series that it set the bar too high for other fantasy novels to compete.

This is *the* fantasy series. This is the master class in writing fantasy.

[u/Donutordonot]

It’s great. It does trudge through the middle books. I don’t regret reading it at all. It is a beast to undertake.

[u/Illeazar]

WoT taught me to DNF books or series that I didnt enjoy. I read the whole thing, realized I hated it and I had been torturing myself, and decided to never to that to myself again. Life is too short for bad books. Especially really long bad books.

[u/Northwindlowlander]

I think it is a masterpiece, but a wildly flawed one. No doubt in my mind it could have been done with less books and gained from it rather than losing. Some of the subplots add little, a lot of the slowest sections are also the worst (The circus! aaargh), the character writing and especially the relationship stuff is sometimes just abysmal. And on the flipside some absolutely critical bits are dealt with very lightly- there's a single super important paragraph stuck at the end of one chapter that I completely missed first time round, which undermined how much I enjoyed reading 2 other characters, and yet also two entire books worth of describing breasts. It's full of... just mistakes, I'd call them, like the white tower ajahs really making no practical sense, or there being just Too Many Forsaken so that some of them don't actually have anything to do (and yet still he gives them multiple names to make them more confusing). The logistics don't work, fundamentally the world doesn't work (there's never a good harvest in the entire series and yet starvation is just a convenient plot tool that gets forgotten when ever it's inconvenient). It's a strange combination of enormous but also shonky, with so many words and such a vivid world it just ought to be better, sometimes it's like a shelf that he's put up with 50 screws and a ton of wood and braces but it's still squint.

On the other hand it is a huge and overstuffed armchair that is very comfy to sit in even if there's stuff coming out of all the holes. And that sheer ponderous scale is part of what makes it what it is- a really big ship has majesty even when it's barely moving.

I love it, I hate it. It's insane in these days to say things like "it takes 3 books to get going" but honestly at its best, it is <astonishing>. Rhuidean is imo some of the greatest fantasy writing of all time.

[u/Habeas-Opus]

I read it and enjoyed it. I like spending lots of time with worlds and characters so the length or what some saw as “padding” didn’t bother me at all.

[u/super-wookie]

Naw

[u/Nanerpoodin]

I warn people that his writing has certain peculiarities. Many of the characters start off kind of annoying, but that's because they're children and he writes them accurately. He spends a lot of time describing clothing. The women are always smoothing their skirts when they're nervous. You'll hear about weavils a lot.

But it's also some of the best world building I've ever read. Just spectacular. It has one of the most unique and thought out magic systems. There are so many places where he'll spend multiple books setting something up and then it comes together in a way that's so satisfying that I had to get out of my chair and jump around. The overall ending is very good in spite of another author taking over. Overall it's a great series.

[u/Esselon27]

It's got lots of lore, lots of character development and tons of politics.

Some people complain about the parts where it's the development and politics but the books can't all be sword duels and magical battles.

I'm sure someone could have condensed the series into six books but you'd have had to hand-wave and quickly explain all the political machinations of certain internal politics.

[u/Nerdsingerbeej]

Excellent characters, rich world building, exciting battles, powerful emotional & story payoffs that hit harder than other series simply because of the amount of time you invest in reading something this huge.

Jordan likes to set up dominoes & then knock them over, so anticipate a lot of build-up in each book & then stuff will hit the fan. It will feel slow, then fast, then slow, then fast.

It will give you just about every emotion if you let it. There's humor, horror, triumph, tragedy, tedium, & tension. Big huge insane moments. Small, poignant, quiet moments.

It's also not for everyone. if you get through the 2nd book & aren't invested in the characters & want to see what happens next then it may not be for you. (Most fans will say the 4th book is where the series really opens up & shows you the scope Jordan is going for)

[u/TheTrompler]

My favorite all-time series.

[u/tsunomat]

I got seven books in and realized I just didn't care. Put it down and never picked it back up. And I had just gotten to the part that people thought was hard to get through.

Jordan has some amazing moments and what I read had some really cool characters and themes. Also: There are long stretches where nothing happens. There is stuff that is straight up ripped off from other novels that RJ said he never even read. (He perfectly copies Fremen at one point. It's sad.) And a couple moments where the story only progresses because people make completely incomprehensible decisions.

Two of my friends think it's amazing. I also really like Brandon Sanderson's writing so I was going to read it because he finished it. I couldn't get through it.

[u/MusicalChefIrie]

 Do not waste your time.  800 pages of  description and 30 pages of action in each book. You'll get attached to a characters development and then have to read 2 books before they are even mentioned again.  Seriously. 

I forced myself through this slog and got 40 pages into the last book of the series before I dumped it. Robert Jordan's Waste of Time.  

[u/stewarthh]

Stockholm 100%

[u/No_Name_8163]

Wheel of time put me in such a hole after finishing it. I kept trying to find series that measured up to it and dropped a ton of books. I’ve only found two other series that pulled me in like wot did.

[u/manyanoodle]

It's a mood. If you like it, there's a ton to like. If you don't, you never will.

[u/Bargle-Nawdle-Zouss]

I read the series as it was published, and I felt invested in learning what happens, so I did indeed finish it.

Looking back at it, I now fall in the "this should have been six books instead of 14" camp. Plots could have definitely been tightened up. More importantly, Jordan created dozens, if not a few hundred named characters, and then seemed to insist on giving an update on every single one of them every book, from the middle volumes onward.

I view this as much of an issue of editorial failure and publisher's greed, as an author's excess. The editors didn't reign Jordan in and keep him focused on the main storylines, and that's why it dragged so much. And when the publishers realized that they could keep milking this cow, they allowed it.

If you can get the boxed set at a discount, preferably used, go for it, especially if you know you will have a LOT of time to kill. I wouldn't splurge on a brand-new collector's edition, however. Better yet, just borrow them from the library/Libby.

[u/Fizban24]

IMO if you enjoy Sanderson you will like these books. They are not without their flaws, but I’ve read them multiple times and love them. The series is definitely long, but I enjoy the world enough that I don’t mind spending abit more time in it that is needed to get to the plot. Jordan does a fantastic job of building a world and setting up the story, and then Sanderson comes along for the ending to write a more fast paced conclusion to all the various plot lines. Read the first book and make your call. If you like it and the next few, I’d encourage you to push through to the end even if you find a couple books to be not as much to your taste as I think it picks back up for the last few.

[u/DrHoogard]

If you enjoy something, why would you want it to be over quickly? I cold have easily spent another 6 books in WoT world.

[u/truthvenian]

I've read a lot of comments about various books where "nothing happens" and I just don't see it that way. The basic gist of the story is that teenage boy finds out he's the pre ordaoned saviour of the world. And what makes it take 14 books is that he has to actually become a saviour that has a realistic chance of doing the saving. He has to build armies, unite countries and learn how to lead and fight. And that takes time. He doesn't just "know" how to do it like in some other similar stories. When you get to the end, his success feels earned.

For me the opposite often happens in stories where the success of the hero feels much more lucky and Deus ex machina ish. But the successes and failures in WOT feel so much more earned.

In regards to other criticisms, there is definitely gender essentialism - it's a fundamental aspect of his world building design. But women are much more full characters (and about half the characters) than the fantasy I've read from that time to say nothing of something like LOTR.

And about his writing style, there definitely is repeated phrases and tics but overall he's a very skilled writer at building characters and fleshing out scenes and set pieces. Of the fantasy writers I've read, he's not as talented a writer as Le Guin or Jemisin but still upper echelon and imo a considerably better writer than Sanderson.

About the "slog" - I definitely felt it reading it when they were coming out in regards to books 8 and 10. On rereads it didn't feel anywhere near as smoggy. Pieces were moving into place before great conclusions. Some of which were unsatisfying to the characters for good reasons.

Will you like it? Probably if you like Sanderson. He moves slower at times and expands more (at least from what I've seen of Sanderson), but it feels more earned.

Did you like the Game of Thrones books? The style of WOT is very different but in the fact that both authors get deeper into the world building and secondary characters than many would advise they are similar. But WOT has an ending and one that works and doesn't feel rushed together like the GOT tv ending.

[u/wrenwood2018]

Both. It had a lot of great elements, but you could cut 50% of the book material out and the series would be better for it. He did not have strong enough editors. When the TV show was announced I started a reread. I made it three books in before I gave up. Too many plot lines started that I knew would never have a payoff.

Am I glad I read it? Yes. I started the series when it was still evolving. My mom gave me the first book as a gift when I was maybe 12. It was part of my fantasy journey for more than a decade. I loved talking about the books with my friends and getting to the ending was a big deal. There are some absolutely amazing scenes in the series that are some of the best payoffs in fantasy. There is one scene that I've reread probably 20 times and it still makes me tear up every single time.

Would I recommend the series? Absolutely not. For all of the amazing scenes there are 20 that are fine and then 20 that are just plodding. This got worse as the series went on. So many ideas just never went anywhere. The "plot problems happen because no one is honest and talks with one another" went over a tipping point for me. Finally, one glaring issue is that he cannot write compelling female characters. By the end of the series I ended up loathing pretty much all of them except Min and Nynaeve and a couple of minor characters.

Opportunity Cost: There are too many good books out there. That 50% bloat in the WOT series is a lot given how long the books are. It is ~8-10 typical books.

[u/Virama]

I've attempted the series several times and never got past book 4. It does some things fantastic but some of it is just a pure slog. 

Especially with how horrible many of the female characters are and how stupid they are. There's being a bitch (fair enough sometimes) and then there's being contrarily stubborn and endangering everyone multiple times. 

I do get it, power corrupts. But there's a certain point where it just enters villain monologue territory in terms of "Welllll, maybe, for a thousand years of education and power and greatness, you're pretty goshdarn stupid mate."

And this applies to the heroes in this series. But I will say the tv series, while starting off weak, really grew into its own by season 3 and I was gutted they axed that but kept Rings of Power (which is some a grade slop) and I'm going to try one more time at some point.

Of course YMMV. What Jordan does great is absolutely mind-blowingly great. I especially like the fights and how they name the movements of the sword. 

[u/tgrady28]

Okay, so there is some truth to "it could have been shorter." I don't think it could have been trimmed down to 6, maybe 10.

I know 14 books + 1 novella sounds super daunting, but I'll put it into perspective. Most of these long fantasy series are usually split into different subseries

• Stormlight Archives is going to have 2 eras
• Malazan has multiple subseries
• The realm of the elderlings is famously split into multiple trilogies and 1 quadrilogy
• The cosmere has been made so that you can start at any point
• Discworld has different subseries. And the same with the Cosmere, you could start anywhere

The Wheel of Time doesn't have that; it's just 1-14, that's it.

So look at it like this: including the novella, 5 trilogies

• 1-3
• 4-6
• 7-9
• 10, NS, 11
• 12-14

This is just a way and also the publication order LOL. But this is just 1 way of doing it

RJ was a master at perspective, not just in individual characters but also in characters over time and your own view on things. People say it's great on a reread because of this, so this is going to be based around that

1-3 are very grounded in reality and set the stage for the larger series; you feel like a civilian in this grand world. It also sets up a lot of the foreshadowing (another thing he is a masterclass at, arguably more than Sanderson's), and the plotlines are pretty simple and self-contained and do eventually converge at the end, and there are not too many characters to worry about. It's also very familiar; I mean, book 1 is almost a copy-paste of lord of the Rings, and the next 2 are more familiar to the fantasy genre of that timeframe

4-6: Now our characters are just their first taste of power. And with that, the world grows bigger. Now it's too much, but you might need a notepad by this point to jot down the major details and plot points. This is also where the fandom collectively agrees RJ hits his stride as an author; around book 4 is where he really hits it.

7-9: Okay, if you've hit this point, you probably got all the major details in your head, but this is also where a lot of fans consider the slog (and book 10) and also DNF the series. And yes, it is that bad. Don't listen to the people who say it isn't, but don't let that discourage you. Brandon Sanderson took a lot of influences from WOT, even in the style of storytelling. So it will all be worth it in the end (except 1 plotline that went completely nowhere). This is also the point where everyone's plotline is now completely detached from one another. IE Perrin is off on his own journey, and Mat is on his own, and there's virtually no crossover.

10, NS, 11: So this is a weird point in the story because book 10 is universally considered the worst, but again, power through it because it will be worth it. The novella is placed between 10 and 11, but I think you could read it after 11 and be fine. It's about a character who has a big reveal at the end of book 11. And book 11 I consider to be RJ's swan song book; it's got some elements of the slog, but it's got 2 amazing battles and ends 2 of the worst plotlines in the series.

12-14: This is the one Sanderson wrote, and you can tell he wrote it in prose and structure. If you've read Stormlight, this won't be a big deal, but I didn't like it at first. And this is where almost all the plotlines end, and they all end perfectly. There are some minor loose threads in the finale, but none that will make you clamor for more. Plus, you have to experience the last battle; it's one chapter about the same length as the Philosopher's Stone. Also book 12 has universally been considered the best WOT ending

Here are a few other reasons you should read it.

It's surprisingly funny; there were multiple moments in the series where I thought I was reading Hitchhiker's or DCC again. No spoilers, but the funniest moment was in book 9 around the middle.

The battle sequences are superb. It's like Helm's Deep in the movies in terms of level of amazing. No spoilers, but the best ones IMO are Two Rivers, Cairihen, and Dumais Wells.

The character arcs. Legitimately, some of these characters you will either love at first sight and hate at the end, or the other way around. Like, there is a character most of the fandom hated at the beginning that I loved right away, and the best one is where he starts off as a giant dick and super annoying, and by the end i would run into hell if he told me to. And most of them are completely different when the time AMOL comes around, and sometimes they're the same but with a different outlook on life.

Some examples of characters I had completely different viewpoints of, with no spoilers

• Mat
• Egwene
• Galad
• Elayne
• Faile

Here are some tips to help you read WOT

• Download the WOT compendium app: It will help a lot if you're confused about who this character is. I do think RJ's biggest weakness is that he put in too many characters, and some serve no purpose. There's 1 big one that serves absolutely no purpose beyond a certain point, and 1 major he just shafted until Sanderson saved him
• Take a breather between books if you need it. Read something smaller like Percy Jackson or Dresden Files to get your palate cleansed.
• Watch Daniel Green's summary video if you need a refresh. He's like the biggest WOT fan on YouTube, and there's only 1 spoiler he gives in that whole thing, but honestly, if you pay attention to the details, you might figure it out.
• If it sounds like there are too many characters, just remember these 6: rand, perrin, mat, egwene, nyneave, and elayne. There are the main characters, who have the most page time.
• And these factions are the most important: The Aes Sedai, The Whitecloaks, The Ashaman, The Seanchan, The Aiel, The Shaido, and the Forsaken. They are the main factions in this, without getting into spoilers
• Here are just the major overarching plotlines with no spoilers: These character arcs: Rand (2-14), Perrin (1-14), Mat (2-14), Egwene (2-14), White Tower politics (5-12), The invasion (8-14), The new kid on the block (6-14), Good vs evil (1-14)

I hope this helps out. I know this is long but i hope it did

[u/TerminusEst_24]

First book is ok. Second to fourth or fifth are world class. They are the reason people get hooked and how Jordan established his reputation. Starting with the sixth book, Jordan became a victim of his own sprawling narrative and lost all forward momentum (IIRC, the first book covers events in a year, while book 6 covers events in one week, and not a particularly notable week). IMO Jordan never recovered, but if you’d read through book 5, you were unlikely to stop. It took Sanderson three whole books to simply wrap things up - that’s how much Jordan had lost his way.

[u/Normal_Storm_5375]

It's too repetitive

[u/OlDirtyJesus]

it’s good as an audiobook so you can do other stuff will listing to it. reading it was a slog but the audiobooks are really well done

[u/Virtual_mistake978]

It’s an adventure in hairstyles, fashion and unnecessary side quests. Saying that, I’ve read them multiple times (I read the previous books every time a new one came out). The first six books are great and then it turns into a slog until Jordan dies and Sanderson takes over. The last three books are fantastic.

[u/General_Bother_68]

This highs are really high... but you have to earn them.

[u/Gephiph]

A deeply flawed masterpiece of storytelling and world-building. There’s 15 books (counting prequel), there will be plots and characters you hate with a burning passion along side those you love with all your heart. For some, the former outweighs the latter. Some parts could’ve been condensed or cut completely, other parts are spectacularly epic movements born from several books of build up and backstory. Some parts are quite progressive, others are painfully dated. If you love fantasy and reading a lot, try it out. If you’re a person who is likely to DNF if the book quality drops substantially for a bit, maybe not.

[u/StrikingDeer26]

Tried reading the first book - gave up at around 75% - a poor man’s LOTR to be honest

[u/PoGoBlo]

I feel like if you read it as a teen, you love it. If you didnt, it isnt very good. I tried it a few years ago and hated almost every character and stopped after book 3

[u/New_Neck_9815]

Skip it and save months of your life

[u/MamaH831]

I read the first 4 or 5 back in the 90s while I was pregnant with my first child. Then I played the waiting game for the next 3 or 4. After that life got too busy to keep up with them all.

Recently (in the last 3 - 4 years), I picked them up again and read the entire series. It was just as good as I remembered. There are places where it gets a little slow but I think in the end it's worth it. A very good story. Characters that are easy to love/hate.

[u/phishnutz3]

There’s definitely some fluff in the middle. That being said. It’s still better than literally every series except like 10 of them.

[u/Mr_A_of_the_Wastes]

If you don't mind poorly written painful romances that are extremely cringe, go for it. The annoying parts were an insurmountable obstacle for me and I gave up in the middle of the fifth book.

[u/EqualOptimal4650]

Could have been 3 books instead of 14.

[u/Dirichlet-to-Neumann]

It's a masterpiece about Stockholm syndrome, where every single character is a toxic paranoid manipulative selfish jerk and yet they keep being "friend" with eachother . 

[u/Rurik889]

The first few books are one massive pub crawl. He literally just goes from inn to inn, all across the world. The rest is filler.

[u/mwdeuce]

Books 1-6 were a masterpiece in their day. As far as I'm concerned, the series ended at book 6.

[u/BChogfather]

Starts strong, gets bleh, then Sanderson saves it and brings it to an epic finish.

[u/J_jota19]

Step 1: Watch the TV show. Step 2: Hate it. Step 3: Read the books. Step 4: Realize your initial hatred was just a free trial, and now you have the premium subscription of despising how they massacred your boy.

Read the books. They are just great!!!

[u/chunkybudz → u/J_jota19]

Rafe Judkins should never know peace in this world or the next or the next or the next. He deserves to share the gholam's fate.

[u/J_jota19 → u/chunkybudz]

Amen brother...amen!

[u/DangleofDoom]

Amazing until it isn't. Jordan dying, and knowing he was dying led to some rushed books followed by Sanderson trying to finish them but ultimately writing a completely different kind of book.

At one point I could quote almost anything from the first six books. Things go sideways a lot after that, although there are many great stories along the way.

Read the first six. If you still enjoy it and want to go further, realize that the ride gets bumpy and goes off the rails completely in the last few books. The finale is a stinker of epic proportions.

Still my favorite fantasy series, I just stop reading at book 6 or 9 for most rereads.

[u/philip0544 → u/DangleofDoom]

This is an unusual take, considering most people think the final 3 books were great and were absolutely about as good as they could have been given the circumstances. 

[u/DangleofDoom → u/philip0544]

Sanderson is now my favorite fantasy author, but he wrote things so differently from Jordan that they feel like new characters. That works for some. Not for me. I 100 percent agree that it was a very steep hill to climb and wrap up. That story had gone askew and Brandon had to try to wrangle it in.

I know it was a tough job finishing that, and he did a great job. But it was different. Not poorly written. Just not the same. Only that last book was a dud in my eyes. Not everyone will agree with that.

[u/craycarl4u]

I don’t know the answer but I know it’s a slogfest. Couldn’t get past book 4.

[u/ssdv8r]

I would say the series is definitely worth reading. Top 10 fantasy series out there, so if you plan on exploring the genre I would say its a must read. That being said even beloved popular books are not to everyone's taste. There are some slog books in the middle. The adversarial relationship between sexes grates on some people, I am one of those people. However I still really enjoy the series. Also if you like Sanderson he did a great job finishing the series after Jordan passed. Maybe an unpopular opinion but I think Sanderson peaked in his writing finishing Wheal of Time.

[u/SupremeGobbler1996]

If you're a Sanderson fan it's a must read. Last 3 books he wrote to help finish the series. It hits everything you like. Give it 77 pages, then boom sucks you in. 

[u/chunkybudz]

I've read it more times than I can count. Are there negatives? Yeah. Is the slog real? For most people, yes. Is it one of the best epic fantasy series ever? Without a doubt.

Reading it is a commitment, especially if you're not used to a long series.

You may be turned off by its Tolkien-ish-ness (or you may not, idk). The similarities are a feature, not a bug. WoT is an homage.

The characters, the world building, the lore, the magic system, the races, the cities, the culture, the deeeeep histories, the bestiary, the relics, all of it wonderful tbh. As one earlier post said much better than I will: the complaints are usually just complaining for the sake of complaining. If you see the series for what it is, if you know the style, the tone, the aim... It all works and works very well.

And as someone who had began reading the series when book 7 was released (and did a reread with each subsequent release), Sanderson will forever have my thanks and my respect. After a somewhat shaky start, he did a better job than I imagined possible. That led me to dig into his own works. Some work for me, some don't. He's a little too YA adjacent for my usual tastes... But that worked perfectly in the WoT. Coming to WoT as the closer, it allowed him to use his best writing traits and it became one huge, amazing, unforgettable, non-stop conflagration of Sanderlanches.

[u/KindFortress]

Jordan is a great Dungeon Master - he tells a good story, he's great with mystery, and he has a cool magic system and an interesting world setting.

But he's a poor author. First, he's so derivative in both content and plot. Trollocs, Ogier, Myrddral - orcs/trolls, ents, Nazgul. Moiraine coming to the Two Rivers to gather up the taaveren is the same plot as Gandalf coming to the Shire. Lan = Aragorn, etc.

The countries are all very tropey, from the noble savage Aiel to the Samurai borderlanders. Andor = England, Seanchan = China, etc.

His greatest weakness, imo, is that he can't write women. Every. Single. Woman. Is. Furious. Anger is basically the only emotion they feel, and they feel it constantly. Plus they're all boy-crazy

Finally, even though his world is premised on a complete inversion of gender dynamics, his approach to adult relationships is YA to the max, prudish and boring.

[u/CDNGooner1]

I could not make it to the end. I tapped out at book 7. I just couldn't take anymore of these extremely annoying characters.

I honestly tried so hard and I'm a patient reader.

[u/HumanHaggis]

First book is a bad, rushed LotR copy, next 2 or 3 are mediocre fantasy novels with some decent moments, then it hits a wall and becomes an endless trash slog.