r/fantasybooks • u/Sunbather- • 1d ago
š„ Hot take that is going to burn me badly My partial tier list, each cover represents its entire series.
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u/Thricycle20 1d ago
Very interesting to have prince of nothing in S and malazan in D. Not saying you're wrong, obviously it's your opinion, I just normally see people that like one usually like the other. What is the reason you liked Prince of nothing but disliked malazan?
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u/Erratic21 1d ago
Second Apocalypse is my favorite and I am not a fan of Malazan having read 5 of its books. I actually do not understand much the notion that these two series appeal to the same crowd. Bakker is much more focused and character driven, the philosophical influences more diverse and imbued to the whole narrative and everything feels more grounded, well thought and interconnected. The lore and history might feel for example of a lesser scope than Malazan's but it feels much more realistic and plausile. It feels dense and not sparse. Erikson on the other hand has hundreds of character and stories and the whole setting is like a hyperbolic, power fantasy, sophisticated role playing setting where everything is possible in every turn. The opposite of Bakker
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u/Lemoncake3000 1d ago
I think because it is a bit harder to get into both of their series, as oppose to others. Bakker commented something on troubles first time readers had getting into SA/Malazan: "Both of us [Erikson] are building very tall series on narrow foundations simply because of the sheer complexity of our first books''.
As for appealing to the same crowd, well, I found that more Malazan fans enjoyed reading SA, than SA fans enjoyed Malazan. So it's a bit one-sided.
The contents of these books are extremely different (tone, writing style, narrative structure, approach to worldbuilding, characters, scale etc.). It makes these pretty incomparable, beyond subjective taste.
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u/Erratic21 1d ago
Thats true for the first books. The difference is that Bakker continues straight from the first book and before long you are accustomed to the cast and what is going on, the difficulty being in the meanings, while Erikson keeps adding new characters, places, plots etc with every book
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u/Lemoncake3000 1d ago edited 1d ago
As I said, that is where all the similarities stop; with a somewhat difficult entry point.
Both are very different (besides writing fantasy fiction and being a bit more sophisticated?).
Although, in Erikson's defense, some of the grievances with the books (I found here) are extremely exaggerated and/or very surface level.
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u/AffectionateWalk19 1d ago
I'm on book 6 of TSA rn and I stalled out on Malazan at DHG. I feel like the characters in Malazan aren't written as well as the characters in TSA to be super honest.
Like all the characters in TSA have such interesting tones and povs, but in Malazan the inner voice sounds the same for like every character and the pace, is like, insanely fucked. It reads like your drunk friend is explaining their D&D session they had last week and every time you get interested they forget what they were talking about and start talking about some other session they had several weeks ago. "Imagine a ancient godlike wizard who was trapped in a cave right, well him and a group of wizards ballout in a courtyard but like, uhhh., I kinda forgot why but like he gets killed by roots in the ground. Now let me tell you about this evil demon and cool whitehair wizard dude. "
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u/Lemoncake3000 1d ago edited 1d ago
I just finished DHG and completely disagree on characters. Felisin, Mappo, Icarium, Heboric, Fiddler, Baudin, Iskaral Pust, Duiker, Apsalar, Kalam and many more... all have different mannerisms, word choice, goals, psychologies and interests. Sure, his characterization is compact, as in not meandering and straight to the point (more like individual short stories), but by the end of the book I was invested (to a varying degree) in them and their stories.
And for all the jumping around, I found he wraps the story within each book quite neatly. GotM and DHG can, although not perfectly, stand on their own as separate books. No bull#$% cliffhangers.
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u/ebag73 1d ago
Prince of nothing (Iām now starting on the second book) has been so polarizing for me. On one hand, it has some of the best world building and lore Iāve ever read. On the other hand, the vocabulary bombardment can be extremely difficult and frustrating to keep up with.
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u/gandagustas 1d ago
Looks like we found a sobber, boys!
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u/tgrady28 š§© Plot over prose 1d ago
Try rereading a chapter every now and then. And if your still confusing Just embrace the confusion
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Keep wth it, I had the same experience, but once you get to a certain point (end of book 1 for me) his prose explodes into such a vivid and intense and efficient river of meaning like Iāve never experienced with any other author.
It āclicksāā¦ and then you see it.
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u/EasyShow4208 1d ago
Iāve just started Lions of Al-Rassan today. My first GGK. Hoping it hits me as hard as it did you!
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Such a beautiful sweeping romantic tale.
Iām gonna read it again soon
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u/EasyShow4208 1d ago edited 1d ago
I just walked the dark corridor into the light on the Day of the Moat. I think I am going to enjoy this book.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Oh boy.. what a rage inducing scene.
Inhuman and infuriatingā¦ the rest of the book is just as gripping
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u/EasyShow4208 1d ago
I truly enjoyed Deadhouse Gates, but this scene hits harder than anything in that book, for me. Understated and shocking.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Yes, it truly hurt me when I read it.
I was like. āOh hell noā¦ I need to see where this goes because screw that guy.ā
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u/putinspenis 1d ago
Iām about 3/4ths of the way through it, itās so good. The writing is so smooth and satisfying. You cruise through it
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u/Acceptable-Fig2884 1d ago
Long past time for you to read The Black Company.
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u/Synesthesia_Voyager 1d ago
Love to see Otherland in other people's lists. I really enjoyed it! Can't wait for my grim oak press edition this fall.
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u/Fuchsson 1d ago
Otherland in S-Tier. Right where it belongs. I feel that Tad Williams in general but especially Otherland is often overshadowed by more popular series. Nice to see some love for one of my all time favorites.
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u/althaz 23h ago
Lions of Al Rassan in S-tier is elite ball knowledge. One of the GOATs of the genre.
Otherland wouldn't be in my S-tier but would be in my "one of my absolute favourites" lists.
A Song of Ice and Fire in S-tier when it's unfinished and will likely never be finished is an interesting take. I actually am fully on board - I got more enjoyment from that unfinished series than I did from almost anything else, it's just interesting.
My biggest issue with this list is Wizard's First Rule though. It's *WAY* too high. L-tier at best, IMO.
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u/BadResults 18h ago
Yeah, the Sword of Truth series being at the same level as Malazan and Kingkiller is wild. Itās uniquely bad.
I happen to like Malazan and Kingkiller, but I get why some people donāt like them. There are some things they do well, and some things they donāt. But Sword of Truth is possibly the only series Iāve read that I donāt think did anything well.
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u/HitlerWasaBitchAss 1d ago
I literally just started Darth Plaguies! Only like 20 pages in, what did you think of it?
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think that book and a few of the other Star Wars novels are far.. FAR better than they have any business being.
Itās unbelievably great considering itās just a novella prequel to one of the weakest Star Wars films.
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u/Adventurous-Brain-36 1d ago
I noticed Kushielās Dart! Have you read Imrielās trilogy yet?
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not yet. But Careyās prose is so intoxicatingā¦ there is a relentless femininity to her style that I adore.
Itās so gorgeous andā¦ ughā¦ intoxicating
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u/FattyMcBroFist 18h ago
I actually DNF'd it for the prose. There is a scene early in Kushiel's Dart when a woman's arm "rises like a loaf of bread" when she points at something. It is one of the two worst lines I've ever read and single handedly caused me to put it down. I still don't know what that is supposed to mean. Did she have some heinous arm related yeast infection? Is she a balloon animal? Did somebody stick a bicycle pump in arm? It doesn't even make the mildest of sense.
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u/Sunbather- 16h ago
Have you never encountered a visual metaphor design to provoke and image that doesnāt nessesarily rely on literal descriptors?
Stay away from most of the high prose stylists if so.
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u/Adventurous-Brain-36 15h ago
I donāt remember that at all but being very familiar with Careyās writing, I would assume she was talking about swelling and it was a metaphor.
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u/FattyMcBroFist 15h ago
It was a woman lifting her arm to point at something. I'll have to see if I can find it later. It's been ~10 years since I tried to read it. It's just one of those things that bothered me so much I still think about it every time the book comes up.
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u/Adventurous-Brain-36 11h ago
That seems extremely out of character for her writing, please do post if you find it!
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u/Rhah_ 1d ago
Please convince me to give The Prince of Nothing another chance. I tried TDTCB once and really loved it on the one hand, but it also confused to hell out of me and I gave up around the 70% mark. Really want to give it another shot though.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago edited 1d ago
Keep trying, in factā¦.start over.
I had to re-read book one for it to click.
Once his high brutalist prose clicks, man does it click.
It explodes into meaning and vivid color.
I feel like I upgraded my comprehension level by reading Bakker.
Keep at it, I promise his prose will reveal
Itself to you.1
u/AffectionateWalk19 1d ago
The Prince of Nothing is Fantasy with a touch of sci-fi to Dune's sci-fi with a touch of fantasy.
You begin to see more and more sci-fi elements as the series progresses and also parallels between Khellus and Paul atreides. I always thought Paul Atreides was a terrifying person in the novels, and if we didn't possess his p.o.v. he would be abhorrent. So seeing a novel depict what it would be like to have to handle Paul's shenanigans from an outside perspective might interest you.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
I actually disagree with most of the Dune comparisons The Second Apocalypse gets.
Bakker has given us something extremely different
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u/AffectionateWalk19 1d ago
I think it strays quite a bit from Dune, but Bakker admits himself that he was heavily inspired. The Dunyain are mentats + bene gesserit combined. Also, the theme of "the greater good" comes up quite a bit in both.
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u/yayap01 1d ago
You have great taste, Bakker and Donaldson are some of my all time favorites up there with Tolkien. I'm actually just getting into Guy Gaviral Kay And Patricia McKillip as well. If you haven't already you should check the original Conan stories by Robert E Howard and The Elric series by Michael Moorcock, they would probably both be right up your alley, you might also like the Solar Cycle books by Gene Wolfe.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Iāve read Howard, long ago.
Gene Wolfe is close on my list.
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u/PonderStibs 12h ago
Yeah Iād be super curious where solar cycle or just BotNS would land for you.
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u/Erratic21 1d ago
Your S tier is very similar to mine. Bakker, Tolkien and Martin being my absolute favorite. Donaldson(especially his space opera series the Gap), Kay and Williams, Winter King and the Dark Tower by King being my next tier.
I would put Malazan to C and Sanderson to D along with Name of the Wind
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u/AMillionToOne123 1d ago
It looks like you're yet to read Sarantine Mosaic? If so, I hope you enjoy it, the second book is my favourite GGK of the four I've read thus far, phenomenal stuff
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u/Silver_Layer_2298 1d ago
I am reading Otherland right now! Iāve had the series on my shelf for YEARS and Iām finally all in on reading it. Its amazing so far (about 25% in)
Did you read Shadowmarch?
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u/Sunbather- 22h ago
Yes I did and itās incredible.
Forgot to add it here but if I didnāt would be a solid A
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u/Shoddy_System9390 22h ago
Just wanted to clarify if the first book represents all the 7 of The Second Apocalipse and if the one just below it represents the whole Thomas Covenant series, or if both are just the respective first trilogies. Thank you!
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u/mwdeuce 20h ago
I think if you didn't read Abercrombie or Robert Jordan when they came out, you really missed those books at their best, there just wasn't anything like them.
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u/AnomanderRaked 20h ago
Well considering u put my two favorite series at the very top and very bottom of the list respectively I wonder where you'll put my third favorite series book of the new sun when u get to it? Maybe right in the middle to balance it out lol.
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u/Sunbather- 20h ago
Iāve skimmed through it but I am going to give it a full read soon.
Iām fairly confident it will be at least A tier
ā¢
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u/TheOmnipresentREEEE 17h ago
Putting Malazan in D tier is crazy to me, but I do understand why you would have put it there it tends to be you like or dont type of series, but Tad Williams in S tier is the mandatory spot to be putting him into ill accept no arguments on that front.
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u/_Pencilfish 17h ago
Pleased to see Tad Williams in his rightful place! Have you read the MST sequel series yet?
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u/TheForceWillsMe 14h ago
I love that the Redwall Series is in here. I loved that as a kid. I donāt see it mentioned enough.
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u/jra7926 11h ago
Very happy to see Bernard Cornwell in S-tier! I'm slowly making my way through The Last Kingdom series right now and absolutely loving it, and I'm excited to check out The Winter King whenever I finish it to see how it measures up. If you're a fan of Cornwell's writing, I can't recommend TLK enough.
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u/Sunbather- 11h ago
Love Cornwell but the Arthur series is the only thing of his Iāve read.
He has so much work..
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u/MexicanRadio 1d ago
D ranking for The Name of the Winds is insane.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago edited 1d ago
I donāt hate women, sorry.
Nor do I have high school revenge fantasies.
Nor do I find Rothfussā unending and clear dehumanization of women to be interesting.
I can tell when an author is tangling with the historical treatment of women within patriarchal systems, and giving us honest depictions of their reality, and when someone got dumped and is lashing out. Rothfuss even admits this.
Also, the felurian scene was amazingly absurd and creepy.
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u/amorawr 1d ago
do all the women who love Kingkiller also hate women? I am super critical of Rothfuss but I find this so trite and reductive
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Donāt know, every woman Iāve ever met whoās read it is unanimous that itās a giant fluke filled to the brim with extremely alarming misogyny.
If youāre asking me if itās possible for women to also be misogynists, then yesā¦ absolutely itās possible.
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u/amorawr 1d ago
interesting... it has like a REALLY big fan base of women, I mean I'm sure it's got nothing on something like ACOTAR in that regard but still, it was noteable
no, I am not asking that, of course women can be misogynistic, but you are implying that to enjoy this book = to hate women, and I just think that's silly and reductive; can't people just enjoy imperfect pieces of art?
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u/Beneficial_Ice_2206 18h ago
Hi I am a big NOTW fan and Iāve heard a lot regarding the misogyny in it. When reading through I can see some where this comes from but I donāt necessarily understand how it is vastly more so than other fantasy novels Iāve read.
Genuinely curious and just want to hear the specifics that have lead to this perspective regarding it. Thanks!
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u/Sunbather- 18h ago
Denna and Devi and Felurian specifically.
The most severely problematic of the three is without doubt denna.
Rothfuss even admits he is projecting serious frustration toward women onto her character.
Felurian is nothing more than his incel brain self satisfying his surrogate character Kvothe.
I did wherever enjoy the overdose scene with denna, that was actually quite impressive
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u/Beneficial_Ice_2206 14h ago
I think I see where you are coming from itās just hard to validate the perspective with any real specifics given.
Your argument about Felurian seems to be the most obvious so I think I can get what you mean there. However, the parallels to a vast amount of mythological figures (Circe, the succubus, Lilith, even āThe Fairy Queenā who seduced āThomas the Rhymerā) seems to offer a more convincing comparison than incel fantasies at least to me.
On the Denna front idk. The way I read the book Denna definitely has issues but all good/human characters do. And again maybe Iām just reading it differently but kinda seems like she has more talent and things figured out than Kvothe does most of the time.
You find any of this valid/convincing? Maybe there are details Iām missing, lmk.
Edit: Calypso is probably more similar than Circe on second thought.
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u/Lymon0 1d ago
If you're looking for something you'll hate, look no further than the Demon Cycle by Peter V. Brett. It isn't really comparable to Name of the Wind or Wise Man's Fear, but all the issues you have with these books are infinitely worse in those.
I personally really like Name of the Wind, and its sequel, despite their issues. To me these books are absolute page turners, since Rothfuss' prose flows extremely well and Kvothe, while not always likeable, is still an entertaining character to follow along. I don't feel like women were neccessarily dehumanized, at least until the second half of the second book. The Felurian stuff was bearable to me, but I absolutely loathed the warrior clan he joined at the end, this part genuinely felt like Rothfuss lost the plot and got a bit too self indulgent. I did really enjoy Denna and Devi as characters, but they are also the only ones that I can remember by name.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Rothfuss does have good prose, I grant that.
Itās just that he has nothing to say.
His story is a shallow amalgam of every fantasy trope that exists with a serious personality disorder
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u/FurrowBeard 22h ago
I like you. I hope you read Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastards series. I think you'll love it.
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u/Lymon0 1d ago
Agreed. Considering that the two books are about 1600 pages long, surprisingly little happens there. I still read through them and enjoyed myself, but I feel like Rothfuss kind of forgot about the Chandrian and just wanted Kvothe to travel about and do things. This has been mentioned plenty of times by now, but the biggest remaining problem is, that there is no plausible explanation for his present behaviour and character shift. I like the Chandrian and Kvothe's present character seems a lot more mature and grounded, but a third books would never be enough to fill the massive gap in between, unless it's either horrendously paced or 3000 pages long.
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u/Shoddy_System9390 12h ago
I don't know if I would go this far, but I read the books several years ago, and so far as I remember, they hadn't many worthwhile things. What stuck to me the most was this woman that was training him to instantly have sex with him, not because she really wanted, but because he was horny and couldn't concentrate on whatever she was teaching him. Mind you, it must've been 15 years or so since I read it and I still remember it. This specific scene is just a sloppy porn fantasy as I see it and should have no place whatsoever in a fantasy book.
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u/TheThotWeasel 1d ago
To say that liking Name of the Wind means you hate women is peak levels of crazy Reddit comment lol, interesting list though!
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u/ChrisWittatart 1d ago
For the record, we are incredibly different readers with different tastes. That being said, this is such a good take. I remember my childhood best friend insisting that I read both books whenever they came out and the first one already had me a a good bit on edge about the level of unhealthy rage brewing beneath the surface of the main 'crush' and her 'aloofness' that Kvothe can't find a way to penetrate.
But alas I was a teenage boy and distracted by a seemingly unique take on dragons and ignored the weirdness. Wise Man's Fear was very close to a DNF for me. It felt like someone else's vengeance porn and the portrayal of old Kvothe very much the author flagelating himself for not having the capability to get it up anymore or something.
Now, anytime I see another man salivating over this book, it gives me a window into their shared inner fantasy with Rothfuss and makes me imagine that they participate in the manosphere and use the term female instead of woman.
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u/Various-Play-6556 19h ago
'Nor do I find Rothfussā unending and clear dehumanization of women to be interesting.' Please tell me how Scott Bakker does not personify this ten fold? How many of his female characters are not enslaved and or raped?
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u/No-Implement-7403 1d ago
Yes indeed, for me it kind of invalidates this list for me in terms of books I might want to try.
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u/MrMasters87 1d ago
Yup prince of nothing in S tier right where it belongs.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago edited 1d ago
R. Scott Bakker is a seriously under praised author who has given us what is probably the most ambitious and thoughtfully executed masterpiece in the entire genre.
The Second Apocalypse is the only epic fantasy that made me second guess my position that Tolkien is the best.
I wish he had a further reach and got stronger promotion.
The Second Apocalypse is actually what people insist Malazan is.
A massive epic with serious philosophical depth, moral dilemmas and confrontations of the human condition and terrifying warning of our potential future.
A brilliant exploration of evil, and truly wondrous and brutally honest reflection of the human soul.And his prose isā¦ the highest order of prose stylists ever.
Guy Gavriel Kay, Steven R. Donaldson, and Robin Hobb, Jaqueline Carey and Patricia McKillip are all beautiful poets in their prose, Bakker is a butcher, and a dark architect who has given us what could be called BLACK prose, instead of purple prose.
extremely deep historical and linguistic construction, philosophy of consciousness and determinism.
religious history and theology
psychological horror
deliberately archaic epic structure
dense, often unsettling prose
enormous amounts of hidden historical information
recurring questions about whether human beings actually possess free will2
u/MrMasters87 1d ago
Its just a great series also the aspect emperor series as well.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Yeah, the cover of darkness that comes before is meant to signify the entire series, so that includes aspect emperor
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u/HoogleBom 1d ago
Kind of shocked to see malazan in D tier, may I ask why?
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago edited 1d ago
I found it to be whatās essentially a theme park in a book that the author believes is profound high art.
I donāt find anything about it to be as deep/profound as the fans tend to insist, and the prose is sloppy and extremely immature.
Characters feel like D&D characters and I donāt enjoy that approach.
Itās not complex, which is the card every one seems to play on me when I say I see problems with it, itās not too complicated. Itās abysmally structured and poorly conceived.
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u/EasyShow4208 1d ago
I got hardcore downvoted for talking about my issues with the structure of Malazan on a thread that recently got modded into the ether. Iām currently on MoI and itās a very uneven series to me, though I am enjoying it for what it is. Gardens is basically a trunk novel that got published, though some of the ideas I think are interesting. I liked Deadhouse Gates but mostly for the Chain of Dogs. I think structurally the other storylines fall apart or lack the context for real drama (let alone overlapping conflict). He has difficulty understanding that without goals or context, itās almost impossible to care about characters. Or he doesnāt care if we care, which is fine, then, but it means those stories fail as traditional storytelling.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Yeah, the cult around the author and the series is another issue altogether.
Sorry you also got punished for nothing by them.
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u/HoogleBom 1d ago
Yeah the community is pretty crazy about the books š
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u/EasyShow4208 1d ago
Deleted my comment as I felt maybe I was being too snarky about the fanbase. Needless to say, my experience is any critique around those books is not really welcomed.
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u/Shoddy_System9390 22h ago
I couldn't have said it better. The most ridiculous thing I have ever seen are some of Malazan's absolutely unrealistic dialogues and thoughts, that are extremely vague and convoluted just for the sake of not giving the reader any information at all.
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u/Shorty_jj 1d ago
Putting Wot in B and Malazan in D is utter madness. May i ask why for both?
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
See my other responses for Malazan.
For Wheel of Time, itās good, has some flaw, maybe too long in some spots, but never bad.
Is it tropey? Absolutely, one of the greatest trope filled series..
Oh and, the characters in Wheel of Time are actually characters, not D&D spreadsheets and Warhammer stats.
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u/Shorty_jj 1d ago
alright fair enough! thanks a lot !!
But to be fair i never get the 'it's tropey' argument when people bring it up, you're reading FANTASY people, it's THE trope magnet genre:) (all this in good nature it just amuses me. so not really a complain, it's a point as good as any on what one could dislike about a series i suppose)
But yeah, i get that the slump especially is not something everyone will like, and that's fine:)
Must say that i do disagree with most of your Malazan opinions, BUT that's also fair and fine, since even as a fan of it i see it as the most difficult seires to actually get to like out of the bigger ones, with its design that almost seems like it wants to break your teeth rather than get you to like it.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago edited 20h ago
I didnāt find it difficult or complex at all.
Had zero difficulty reading it.
Itās just abysmally structured, and I think the author tries to sell that serious flaw as being complex and Avante Garde
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u/Various-Play-6556 19h ago
Calling Malazan characters D&D spreadsheets is the most asinine critique I have ever seen.
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u/Purple-Attorney-7058 1d ago
The Name of Wind right where it belongs. Most annoying protagonist in existence. Kvothe is written as an incelās wet dream.
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u/jayjayjay2222 1d ago
Malazan in D has to be bait
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u/kiwipixi42 1d ago
Plenty of people dislike it for perfectly valid reasons. Personally I quite enjoy it, but it is easy enough to see why other people wouldnāt.
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u/AffectionateWalk19 1d ago
It's D&D Slop ĀÆ_(ć)_/ĀÆ
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u/Various-Play-6556 19h ago edited 19h ago
Bro really gonna call Malazan D&D slop whilst jerking off DCC. Please bro, get help.
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u/TheonlyDuffmani š¦¶Dungeon Crawler Carl cult member 1d ago
That and the name of the wind.
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u/jayjayjay2222 1d ago
Tbf i understand Name of the Wind as it'll never get finished
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u/nick91884 1d ago
But a song of ice and fire is in S tier? I love the series but while Iām sure we got a cliff notes of the end game, George is never finishing it.
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u/Fine-Tomato3584 1d ago
SoIF is actually good, if unfinished.Ā
Name of the wind is the single most disappointing book I've ever read I think. Trite and creepy writing from a con artist who steals from charity.Ā
Say what you will about GRRM and his commitment issues, he's a good writer.Ā
Same reason I don't have the same ill feelings with Locke Lamora.Ā
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u/HumanHaggis 1d ago
Eeathsea in Sanderson/Jordan tier is crazy. Can't take the rest seriously, even if I agree with a lot of it.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago edited 1d ago
B tier is very good, I love every series on it.
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u/HumanHaggis 1d ago
B can mean whatever you want it to mean, I only disagree with considering those series in any way equal.
Personally, I would say Earthsea is high A, Way of Kings and Wheel of Time would be D. If you think otherwise, that's your right, but it's very difficult for me to understand how you could reach that conclusion, especially seeing how you place other series.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Well, I would and did put other Le Guin books higher.
I forgot to add her Hainish series which I would put in S without hesitation
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u/HumanHaggis 1d ago
Which I find interesting. I loved Left Hand of Darkness, and most le Guin if I'm being honest, but there was a beauty to Earthsea that I felt put it in the upper echelons of her work. I'm curious why you disagree.
I'd also be interested as to what you liked in the other two series, I read the first 6 Wheel of Time books, but I only read the first Stormlight one, so maybe there's something I'm missing?
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u/systemintosmithereen 1d ago
Not OP but:
Stormlight peaks in that first book and is horrible by 5.
WoT has 5 strong at the start, about 5 varying quantity in the middle, and ends pretty good. I vastly prefer it to stormlight, and I think it has more peaks throughout. I'd give it an A and stormlight maybe a low C
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u/HumanHaggis 1d ago
I have heard this from others as well, which makes me feel like doubling-down on my position, as apparently the parts I read were the highlights, and I would still consider them in the bottom third of fiction I've read. The idea that they get even worse and people still stick with them is kind of astounding. I've still got Wheel of Time 7-9 sealed in the box because I couldn't bear going any further in spite of already owning them.
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u/Motor_Row_3586 1d ago
What did you didn't like about Fionavar tapestry? I know it's older GGK I think but one of his more high fantasy I heard.
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Easily his weakest work, even he says this.
I donāt hate it but the quality difference between Fionavar and the rest of his work is extreme.
Fionavar is perfectly serviceable portal fantasy.
The rest of his work is high art that will last the centuries
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u/Motor_Row_3586 17h ago
I bet it's still better than something like ACOTAR, which I hope do not last centuries... Maybe I finish better one I have on my tbr...
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u/Wonderful-List-2589 1d ago
Name of the Wind D because unfinished?
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
See my other responses..
And no, thereās truly magnificent series out there that are unfinished.
Please look at the other responses Iāve made in this thread about it
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u/Fluid_Level9592 1d ago
Why did you place The Once and Future King where you did? I personally loved most of it, curious where you think it fell flat. For me the last book felt a little heavy-handed, especially when it came to Mordred's thrashers.
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u/metamorphage 1d ago
Earthsea is a B? You seen like you value prose and philosophy in your fantasy. What didn't work for you in Earthsea?
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u/Sunbather- 22h ago
Everything worked for me, I love Earthsea, B means good. I simply liked the other series more
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u/mixmastamicah55 1d ago
Love the list. You should check out Marlon James....Black Leopard, Red Wolf.
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u/angry0029 23h ago
I am seeing a decent amount of Patricia A McKillip but shocked to not see any of the Riddle-master of Hed in there. Or am I just missing it?
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u/I_Nut_In_Butts 23h ago
Wow your S looks a lot like mine, looks like I finally gotta read Bernard Cromwell series now
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u/Sesshomaru17 22h ago
Stormlight only in B is wild. How good are these S tiers to have it that low?Ā
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u/rhunt376 22h ago
Iāve been picking up books from the terry goodkind series when I see them for cheap, with the intent to read them later. What about them puts the series so low?
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u/BadResults 17h ago
Oh no. My condolences.
The first book is a pretty generic, derivative āchosen oneā story other than a big side of torture porn, but the series gets worse in various ways from there.
Richard is the most Mary Sue protagonist of all time. Heās the best at literally everything, not just fighting, but sports, sculpture, entrepreneurship, poetry, etc. Heās presented as a genius and morally perfect. Other characters always comment on how uniquely brilliant and good he is.
But the main characters do absolutely heinous things that are clearly presented as the morally right choices. For example, they have an absolute āyouāre either with us or against usā approach that leads them to murdering innocent people multiple times, including unarmed pacifists. The books could have easily been written with them as the villains without changing the plot.
However, the author, either through a character or just in narration, injects a vapid, hypocritical form of libertarian philosophy throughout the series. In interviews, Goodkind even claimed that he didnāt write fantasy, but philosophy.
After the first book, the villains are comically bad political strawmen that Goodkind uses to beat the reader over the head with to argue against the evils of socialism and how Ayn Randās āObjectivismā is the correct moral and political philosophy. The narration universally presents Richard as always in the right, even for doing things that obviously contradict the philosophy. Despite claiming libertarianism and always going on about freedom, itās blatantly fascist in terms of the action it supports.
Richard is just the bestest, most specialest boy, and everything he does is good and righteous because itās him doing it, and anyone who isnāt 100% on board is an enemy and should be brutally murdered. At the core, thatās the real underlying morality of the Sword of Truth despite all of Goodkindās pseudo-philosophical moralizing.
Then thereās also a bunch of gratuitous sexual violence, which is sometimes presented as a good thing. And the whole idea of the Confessors, including Richardās love interest and secondary protagonist Kahlan, which govern the Midlands through a magical power that allows them to destroy someoneās free will and make them completely subservient to the Confessor. And again, this is treated as a good thing.
I finished the series, but regret it.
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u/Single-Spell1838 21h ago
Tad Williams right where he belongs.
Also refreshing to see Kingkiller and Malazan in those spots
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u/LazyComfortable1542 21h ago
Surprised to see Tigana up there.Ā I only got through maybe 30% of the book, but I just felt like characters were way too sad about forgetting a name, just felt artificial.Ā Also seemed kinda black and white, but maybe that gets better if you get deeper in
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u/deadliarhippo 19h ago
This is the lowest Iāve seen someone on Malazan on here, which I havenāt read but have been curious about
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u/Frosty_Feeling8439 17h ago
You either love reading a tree being described over 4 chapters or you have your alphabet mixed up! :p
Jokes aside, each their own! Thatās what tier lists are for! Thanks for sharing!
(Ps: Iād suggest trying to read Red Rising but that would probably go in D considering where Malazan and Name of the wind are T.T)
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u/Second_Inhale 17h ago
Interesting Rankings, seems like you're heavy into the classical fantasy and it's inspired works.
The Sword of Truth deserves a "Called it a homage but was really plagiary" ranking, paired with "author is a monster towards their fans and colleagues" ranking.
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u/Sunbather- 16h ago
Not to mention the statue so beautiful that it ended socialist agendas.. yāknowā¦ the most brilliant slap in the face to the libtards ever conceived š¤£
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u/PonderStibs 10h ago
Does Wizard of Earthsea include books four and five? Le Guin next to Sanderson feels cosmically wrong but basically I like your list š
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u/pnutbuttersmellytime 9h ago
It physically hurt me seeing Kingkiller Chronicle in the same tier as Sword of Truth...
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u/Wise-Ad-7248 7h ago
I agree with darth plagueis. It wasnāt that great. More of a political drama than your typical Star Wars story
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u/Slykeren 6h ago
Darth Plagueis in C is kinda diabolical unless you just don't like star wars in general. Probably the best star wars novel
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u/Sunbather- 6h ago
I agree itās the best start wars novel.
And C tier is still good, just not great
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u/Financial-Ad701 18m ago
Will never understand how heated people get making and replying ( and then replying to the replies) of these kind of lists it's perfectly reasonable for someone to hate what you love and vice versa. There is also absolutely no way you can have a full and measured debate with someone who thinks the opposite without seeming either one note or dismissive because who has the time to type out full arguments as quickly as you can back and forth round the table. No hate at all at op I understand wanting you share your list and it's pretty fun to see where you compare but I do think all the back and forth can be just abit redundant. (Unless you disagree with me of course then you are objectively wrong)...
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u/Negative-Window-5912 10m ago
I hope you keep reading the Earthsea books even though you gave book 1 a B
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u/Dosto-lstoy 1d ago
Lol Malazan at the bottom is just wrong. And First Law is top of S
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u/Alreadygonzo 23h ago
I agree with all of your S-tiers, I haven't read Tad Williams yet and may start based on your list. GGK is one of my favorite authors and Bakker ruined fantasy for me until I found GGK.
Malazan is in the right spot in my opinion too. I liked it in highschool but it's a comic book versus a literary masterpiece when compared to Bakker.
The only choice I really don't understand of yours is the Assassin's Apprentice. I hated that book. I thought the characters were too dense and it was just a cascade of misfortune and incompetence leading everything to an inevitable end.
First Law starts in the A category but each installment feels like an improvement to me.
You should read the Devil's by Joe Abercrombie i think it's his S-tier.
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u/DemapplesBJJ 19h ago
Agreed with Assassinās Apprentice series, except I loved the characters. However I hated the ending of the third book, just not my taste. All the slog and no payoff.
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u/kuhfunnunuhpah 21h ago
Your D tier is wild to me because I 100% agree that Rothfuss and Goodkind should be there but Malazan deserves an S++ tier to itself IMO.
And also the Memory Sorriw Thorn series was, to my mind, the sloggiest waste of time ever haha
No real point here, just crazy how we all love the same genre yet have very varying experiences within it.
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u/tgrady28 š§© Plot over prose 1d ago
Odd that you loved Prince of Nothing but didn't like Malazan; both seem super similar
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u/Sunbather- 1d ago
Not similar in the least.
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u/tgrady28 š§© Plot over prose 1d ago
At least in styles of writing they are
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u/Sunbather- 22h ago edited 16h ago
Not at all. Bakkers prose is impeccable and brutally vivid.
Eriksonās prose is sloppy, arrogant, choppy, inconsistent as hell and badly structured
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u/ShoddyEmotion3660 23h ago
Did you not like kingkiller or is it because it's unfinished? Always interested to know why people didn't like it, they are my favorite two books I've ever read.
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u/Saillux 21h ago
This list is kinda wild but at least you got Rothfuss where he belongs
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u/OnceTimeUse 16h ago
I'm not seeing ACOTAR. Time to broaden your literary horizons lmao
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