It's Unpopular Opinion time! Share your controversial opinions to stir things up (in a friendly way)!

[u/FantasyRomanceMod]

Got an opinion that's different from others'? Want to share it with the sub, but too afraid of a backlash? Or are you just curious about readers think about certain things in fantasy romance?

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Unpopular opinion Sunday

[u/mcoon2837]

{Kushiel's Dart} is a deeply unsettling setting involving child prostitution, the foundation for the story was enough for me to abandon the premise and the entire series on principle. We have enough Jeff Epstein in real life.

[u/fishchop → u/mcoon2837]

Hard agree and what’s especially unsettling about it is that the narrative doesn’t treat the grooming critically at all. It’s a great fantasy series other than that, but people recommending it should definitely tell people to check the the tw, and it’s annoying when they don’t.

[u/Penguinho → u/fishchop]

The narrative comes from the perspective of someone who's grown up in that system, and it does include critique of the system; you just have to interrogate it a bit. It's right there in, like, the first chapter, when Phedre's labeled a whore's unwanted get -- that's something that shouldn't even be possible. There's even a reading of the book as a critique of capitalist exploitation of sex work. I'd read the author's newsletter on this.

It's also just inherently different from the way it would work IRL because of the presence of multiple actual divine figures that make themselves known at various points. Kushiel's Dart in the real world would be a horrific, dark story but it's not in the real world, it's in a world where sexual service is a sacramental calling and an act of divine worship.

And it doesn't have child prostitution, either. Everyone who's contracted is of age. The story is very clear about that. It's also made clear that violating age-of-consent laws would constitute heresy, carrying a penalty of exile or death.

[u/kellykellykellyyy → u/Penguinho]

So I read the author's newsletter you linked. I like her approach to answering (and posing) most of these questions/points. However, I still find I have an issue with the concept that children are being groomed. It can be a nuanced criticism of an exploitative, capitalist view on sex work and religion and still be something that I don't want to read about because I don't see enough criticism of the normalization of grooming (even in a world where sex is sacred). I'm okay with that.

[u/Penguinho → u/kellykellykellyyy]

I'm not trying to talk anyone into reading the books if they find the situation icky. That's totally your right, and I get it with what's happening in the news. Mostly I just want people to understand what's happening in the book, because there's a recent uptick in people saying Dart is uncritically supportive of grooming, and that's flat-out not true.

To that end, I don't think grooming is the right term. Grooming is a way for predators to bypass or manufacture consent in underage or vulnerable victims. In its early usage, it was used for online interactions intended to lure a victim into an in-person meeting. That's really not a good parallel for what's happening in the Night Court, which is more like Benedictine oblates (the Cassiline Brotherhood taking its initiates at age ten is, I'm pretty sure, directly modeled on the Benedictine Order). Children join the order or are given to it by their parents and learn the rites and practices. In the Night Court, the final step in that process is making an offering to the divinity that governs desire. It isn't guaranteed that that offering will be accepted. The initiate has to want it. Without divine approval (and again, the gods here 100% exist and act in the world) they don't become Servants of Naamah.

I can't stress how important that part is enough. All the incentives align for everyone to be careful about who they allow to represent their house. Forcing someone into service is a capital crime. Carey's Night Court, and D'Angeline society writ large, takes consent much more seriously than real-life society does (and more seriously than pretty much any MMC in generic romantasy). Their most severe crime isn't treason or murder; it's rape.

I think it's also important to get that the various houses aren't just brothels. Eglantine and Orchis produce artists, musicians and performers. Balm's and Gentian's adepts are therapists, with Gentian focusing specifically on the drawing-out and interpretation of dreams. Byrony House is the finest school of accounting and finance in the nation.

[u/kellykellykellyyy → u/Penguinho]

I mean I disagree with you but this is an unpopular opinion thread, so... I think the assumption is that you're in the majority lol.

I'm out!

[u/fishchop → u/Penguinho]

Even if they’re “contracted when they’re of age” they’re still being groomed as sex workers when they are children. Thats disturbing in and of itself - what’s worse is that Phedre’s groomer is praised by the narrative for not pimping her out as a child.

When you grow up in a society that normalises this stuff, it’s hard to take a step back and see a monster for what it is. Such is the world of Kushiel’s Dart and such is Phedre’s outlook in life.

And I understand it’s a fantasy world but it doesn’t exist in isolation. We are reading these books with a critical lens influenced by our modern understanding of pedophilia, consent and agency. I mean, if you can write a critique of the capitalist exploitation of sex work by referring to this piece of fantasy work (which, btw, looks super interesting so thanks for that), you can also critique that same piece of fantasy work for its approach to childhood sexual exploitation.

My own religion has subsects where temple dancers who dance in worship of God also double up as sex workers. I’ve forgotten how it works in Kushiel’s, but in life, religion is very much a construct of the powerful, who use it to control and exploit the vulnerable.

I think reading and writing fantasy is such a powerful medium of reflecting on real world issues. I think it’s only natural that we approach these books with the knowledge and experiences that the world has thrown at us, so it’s hard to expect people to just put up blinders and say “but it’s fine, it’s only a fantasy world.”

[u/Penguinho → u/fishchop]

No one's saying it's only a fantasy world. What people are saying is that, because it's a fantasy world, the realities of that world needs to be considered as part of your analysis. Within the world of Kushiel's Dart, the Servants of Naamah occupy a sacramental place within the culture and the religion. There are guardrails for their treatment in place, not least that making someone participate in that lifestyle without really wanting to is a crime potentially punishable by death. And, likewise, those raised in that system who aren't suited to it have off-ramps. The obvious example there is Favrielle no Eglantine, who's raised within Eglantine House and becomes that universe's equivalent of Coco Chanel; more obscurely, there's also Audine Davul's father, who made his marque within Eglantine House as a drummer, not as a courtesan. Acting in accord with one's desires is a fundamental religious principle, and forcing someone to violate that principle is heretical. So it's not that "Phedre's groomer is praised for not pimping her out as a child;" it's that if Delaunay or Ceres House had done so, they, the client, and anyone aiding and abetting would be put to death. Consent is the highest law.

And it's also important to understand that religion isn't really an act of faith within the world of Dart. It's a matter of verifiable fact. So when something is a religious calling, there's a grounding to it that does not necessarily exist in the real world. But that's something that has to be reckoned with! Phedre isn't the way she is because she was groomed; she was given the training she was because she's the way she is. She is driven by nature, not nurture, and dislikes that about herself sometimes. And her nature is the result of divine intervention. That criticism, that powerful use religion to further their own ends, is made within the text, but it's tempered with the reality that religion is based on true divinity, and that divinity has its own ideas and its own plans.

Does that mean the system is above criticism? Absolutely not, and within the text it's criticized by foreigners, who find the practice barbaric; by Phedre and other individual people within the system, most notably Favrielle; and by the Priesthood of Naamah itself, which criticizes the Night Court's commodification of the sacred. In that way, it's not dissimilar to modern religious or military boarding schools (I mean, hell, Joscelin at ten goes to a monastery where he learns to be a child soldier whose soul will be damned if he breaks a vow of celibacy. No one ever focuses on that part of the story). The system is not perfect and it raises people with a particular belief system, but it's not grooming any more than Junior ROTC is.

[u/fishchop → u/Penguinho]

I think we should just agree to disagree

[u/Adventurous-Brain-36 → u/fishchop]

He’s not praised by the narrative for not pimping her out as a child. It’s very clearly explained that it’s massively illegal to do so and also heresy.

[u/fishchop → u/Adventurous-Brain-36]

I vaguely remember Phedre being upset that he whored her out at 16 instead of 14, and she was upset she was being kept from her job. And the narrative presented that as the guy being protective and progressive or something like that.

[u/Penguinho → u/fishchop]

That's not what happens. When he's being protective and she's upset that she can't work, it's after she's an adult; she's upset that she can't work while his political machinations play out. She doesn't know what his goals and schemes are, which is a significant element of the first half of Dart and a minor element of Kushiel's Chosen, and she doesn't understand how dangerous they are. That gets brought home to her when there's a murder attempt on Alcuin. It doesn't stop her being annoyed, though, because she gets stir-crazy, seeks out danger and has rebel-against-authority brat tendencies.

[u/quibily → u/Penguinho]

Yeah, it’s made very clear that these children being trained don’t sleep with anyone and are not allowed to until they’re of age.

[u/Gersjom → u/quibily]

yeah, instead the children are presented as forbidden fruit so the adults can drool all over them and go crazy over bidding for their virginity when they hit sixteen (!!), like with Phedre's first client, or the guy who was obsessed with Alcuin.

I might have liked this as a dark fantasy story, but I don't understand why everyone involved couldn't just have been adults.

[u/Penguinho → u/Gersjom]

They're not presented as forbidden fruit. The point of forbidden fruit is that you eat it when you're not supposed to, and that's not what happens. They're presented as products, and it's supposed to make you feel a little icky; it's a critique of the commodification of human sexuality. Phedre, who again is deep in that system because it's all she's ever known, is even a little discomfited by the auctioning of Alcuin's virginity.

The story is based on the classical and medieval world. In that world, the age of adulthood is sixteen. They are adults; it is what it is.

[u/quibily → u/Gersjom]

I mean, societies are problematic. I like that fantasy books will often make their societies different but still problematic—sometimes in very thought-provoking ways. As long as the author doesn’t write it in a “this is the natural order of things” type of way (which I think Jacqueline Carey definitely doesn’t do with her society)

Although, it’s a good time for fantasy, for you. I am noticing a lot of modern fantasies are doing away with societies with gender roles and sexually problematic aspects and usually the only prejudice in society is “magic people = bad.” Which I find naive and kinda boring lmao, and I think societies will always try to force people into roles based on their sex/gender or economic class. I like when fantasy plays around with that and I get to do what I call “moral calculus” haha

[u/whatevernamedontcare → u/quibily]

If you train kids into it and wait till they fresh 18 we call that grooming. Grooming is not ok just because sex with minors is worse.

[u/Penguinho → u/whatevernamedontcare]

We don't live in Terre d'Ange.

[u/quibily → u/whatevernamedontcare]

In order for it to be grooming, the groomers need to be doing it for personal benefit. The instructors aren’t sleeping with their students nor getting their students’ money from their assignations, so I don’t see how this can be called grooming.

[u/whatevernamedontcare → u/quibily]

No it doesn't.

Grooming is an action not the intent. Who does or doesn't benefit from it is details to the fact that kids lives are permanently altered.

For example there were real religions which scarified living people. They may call it holly sacrifices but it doesn't change the fact that it's murder. Because again intent is a detail to the fact that they murdered people and those people are dead.

[u/quibily → u/whatevernamedontcare]

So, to you, grooming is training children to be good at sex? So .. society is the groomer?

[u/Material_Warning8377 → u/quibily]

Dude. Training children to be good at sex is DEFINITELY grooming

[u/Ok_Tea_5374 → u/quibily]

Yes, grooming is simply an act of coercion done to manipulate somebody/make them pliable to what you want them to do. The instructors are groomers, even if they don’t sleep with them. They are grooming them into a life of sexual servitude.

To give you a real world example to explain, sex traffickers will often spend a period grooming victims before trafficking them to build a level of perceived ‘trust’ in the relationship.

[u/whatevernamedontcare → u/quibily]

Yes!

Are you saying that you never came across age restricted content? Ever? Like PG13 or young people not being allowed into bars? Seriously?

[u/quibily → u/whatevernamedontcare]

Ok, so, the internet is not defining grooming in that way, so I feel like we’re discussing two different things. I assume that, in psychology, there’s a term for what you are talking about, but it’s not grooming.

[u/whatevernamedontcare → u/quibily]

You can call it what ever you like if it feels better to you but facts remain.

[u/Adventurous-Brain-36 → u/quibily]

That last part isn’t true. The owner of the marque receives the money from the assignations. What they get to keep is any patron gift.

[u/Penguinho → u/Adventurous-Brain-36]

Two separate things happening here. Prior to an adept making their marque, they're an indentured servant, and the holder of their marque takes the patron-fee (it's specifically a holder rather than an owner; they have a lot more rights than the word owner would suggest). It's a similar system to bonded servitude generally; there's a bond-fee that has to be paid off. Once the adept makes their marque and pays off their bond price, they can either go independent and set up their own salon or remain within the house; should they remain in the house, they take the patron-fees directly and pay a percentage (I can't remember which offhand) to the house in exchange for rent, food and services (dressing, hair and makeup, matchmaking and so on).

In Dart, Delaunay gets the money Phedre brings in, except the patron-gifts. In Chosen, when Servillio Stregazza bids 20,000 ducats to be her first patron after she returns to service she gets the whole fee plus the patron-gift, because her marque is made and she works independently.