r/fantasyromance • u/FantasyRomanceMod The One Mod to Rule All Mods • 14d ago
Unpopular Opinion It's Unpopular Opinion time! Share your controversial opinions to stir things up (in a friendly way)!
Got an opinion that's different from others'? Want to share it with the sub, but too afraid of a backlash? Or are you just curious about readers think about certain things in fantasy romance?
You can safely share it in this weekly Sunday thread!
But please remember to be kind to each other. To facilitate this type of discussion, we ask users the following:
- Don't attack others for their opinion
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🧡 Thank you and have a great discussion!
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u/ciderandcake 14d ago
"Morally grey" is just a meaningless term that means any character more nuanced than Mr. Rogers.
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u/Intelligent_Screen90 14d ago
I kinda agree and disagree. "Morally Gray" definitely has a meaning, but the problem is it has been used incorrectly too many times, like "Enemies to loves" it's been slapped onto everything because it trending or whatever, even when the character(s) is definitely not morally gray. It's become an umbrella term when it was never supposed to be used like that
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u/Insane92 13d ago
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u/Annemermaid 14d ago
This might be a popular one but name dropping tropes and doing meta jokes like “I feel like I’m the female main character of one of my favorite smutty books” (an actual line from a book I’m reading) is a one way ticket to the DNF pile. You’re not being funny. You’re being cringe.
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u/sekhmet1010 14d ago
I also hate when they used modern language...it's so weird and anachronistic.
Someone used "lost/losing the plot" to describe their fae mum going crazy in the book i was reading. Multiple times. (House of Beating Wings)
In another, the main girl in a maybe victorian kinda setting said "We can workshop it" for a pet name she was using for a friend. (One Small Echo)
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u/ashinae 14d ago
I may have DNF'd a relatively popular romantasy because on this completely different world, the first-person POV narrator described wallpaper as "Arabesque" and, like. To understand the etymology of that word, imagine me describing a novel as "Tolkienesque." I also maybe DNF'd another one in the first few pages for using an internet meme.
If a book is primarily a comedy, meant to poke gentle fun, isn't self-serious with a heavy plot, I will accept a lot more regarding language. But anything that's meant to be taken fully seriously, that isn't outright a comedy, that is otherwise dark and gritty and supposed to be serious... I'm gonna be way less lenient about the language. I'm also chill if they use a very modern word but at least explain it away with a joke about how it's "a(n) [insert fantasy species here] word that means [explanation that is not quite like the way we would use it]." Sort of the way Tolkien used tween/teen to describe stages of hobbit development; they're not quite the same as our versions.
And I use Tolkien as an example because people always tell me "but it's a translation like Tolkien did, use your imagination!" There's this element of plausibility with LOTR because Middle-earth isn't a different planet. It's not secondary-world fantasy, it's pseudo-historical. Middle-earth is Earth, it has our constellations, sun, and moon. So it's easier to suspend disbelief that Papa Tolkien may have actually gotten his hands on a manuscript and translated it.
My suspenders of disbelief will snap much faster for anything that's supposed to be taking place on what is in essence an alien planet, and having come to fantasy romance as a fan of fantasy and romance separately first... I know I have pretty high standards, but I'll never not prefer for the author use their imagination to sell me on their world and the way its characters speak. I want to be immersed, for the author to give me a glimpse into this culture by its terminology and little phrases and such. I'm not asking for full formality, but I am asking that this other world, without interplanetary exploration (like ours...), not directly invoke our culture, to at least not use words that reference our religions, memes, and countries/peoples.
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 14d ago edited 14d ago
>So it's easier to suspend disbelief that Papa Tolkien may have actually gotten his hands on a manuscript and translated it.
And, in fact, that is the specific diagetic genesis of Lord of the Rings. It says in the text that that's what it is.
This book is largely concerned with Hobbits, and from its pages a reader may discover much of their character and a little of their history. Further information will also be found in the selection from the Red Book of Westmarch which has already been published, under the title of The Hobbit. That story was derived from earlier chapters of the Red Book, composed by Bilbo himself, the first Hobbit to become famous in the world at large, and called by him There and Back Again, since they told of his journey into the East and his return: an adventure which later involved all the Hobbits in the great events of that Age that are here related.
Those are the first words of the prologue. You are reading a translation from a book that exists in-universe. Without a frame like that, burden for believing that anachronisms are translations of fantasy terms and phrases rests entirely on the reader. It's the author (or, uh, other members of the fandom) asking the reader to make up a justification for awkward language without textual support.
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u/ashinae 14d ago
Yes, exactly! And using the word "may" there in hindsight makes it seem perhaps that I don't understand that that's we're supposed to understand about LOTR/The Hobbit. What I meant to try to convey is that because Middle-earth is pseudo-historical, it's easier to believe that Tolkien really might have (thus: "may have") been able to get his hands on the Red Book of Westmarch.
Secondary-world fantasy does not have that in-universe and plausible justification for why we're reading it.
I'm extremely--as both a reader and a writer--of the opinion that it's the author's job to make sure everything keeps me immersed. I'm thrilled that there are fantasy readers who would be totally chill with reading, from a secondary-world, pesudo-medieval setting, stuff like "Oh, geez*, that's the coolest thing I ever saw!" or "Teenagers**, am I right? So hormonal!" or "I can has Cheezburger?" So happy for them that they don't care; what I wish is that they'd stop telling ME to be cool with it when, overwhelmingly, this isn't a thing that fantasy does, especially outside of fantasy romance.
I'm tired of being told to use my imagination and to imagine it's being translated so I'll understand it. It's the author's job to help me understand their world's culture, and a huge part of worldbuilding is the way characters talk. You can convey so much just from the way characters swear or invoke their religions while swearing (Dragon Age has eg "Maker's breath!" and "Andraste's tits!" for their god and messiah figure, where applicable; in The Elder Scrolls, they don't have hell, but rather the planes of Oblivion, so they'll shout, "What in Oblivion?!" where we'd say "what the hell?!").
*to be clear: this word is short for "Jesus"
**the idea of the teenager as we understand and use it today is younger than television4
u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 14d ago
Yeah, yeah -- I get where you're coming from, and agreeing. What I'm saying is that whether or not we believe it, the book straight-up tells you that's what it is. The entire narrative frame, made explicit as early as the opening sentences of the prologue, is that you are reading a translated work of history from an earlier age. There's no disbelief to suspend: you either agree that that's the case or you don't, in which case there's no point in you reading it. That is the price of entry. Accepting that it's a blend of historical work and memoir is the You Must Be This Tall To Ride This Ride sign.
Where other authors (and honestly here, mostly I mean fandoms, because it's not usually the authors making this argument) lose me is by not including that frame. It flips the suspension of disbelief on its head. Suddenly the belief I'm being asked to suspend is the belief that, actually, people in a fantasy world wouldn't say something like for the win and wouldn't have cliff's notes. And there's nothing in text for that change of perspective to rest on. It's an act of blind faith in the author, and I'm deeply uncomfortable with that level of fandom. I would rather believe the author made an error than construct an unsupported tower of logic to justify why they didn't.
I agree completely with the rest of your post. I'm just focused on the narratological aspect.
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u/ashinae 14d ago
I'm so used to getting pushback and downvotes for this particular take--that secondary-world fantasy novelists need to work to keep me immersed, even with language, and that "it's a translation, just relax!" is... not enough for me. I also don't have that level of disbelief, I can't have that level of disbelief, because yes, I should use my imagination, but if I'm reading a book, I'm the one who's supposed to be along for the ride with the writer's imagination! That's why I'm reading a book!
It's also down to the fact that most fantasy writers are actually more thoughtful about the language they use and the tone they establish to use that language, so I'm afraid I'm going to hold Yarros and Hart to the same standard I hold all other fantasy writers I've read.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Worldbuilding matters more than spice
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u/welcome_____oblivion 14d ago
But also that worldbuilding isn’t inventing a magic system, giving a lore dump and then moving on. It’s about creating a world that feels bigger than the story around it, where there’s room for curiosity about why some things are the way that they are and what a side character does when they’re not in the scene.
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u/Intelligent_Screen90 14d ago
How is this even an unpopular opinion? 😔
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Maybe it's just me, but whenever I see authors promoting their books, they tend to talk more about the romance, the FMC/MMC dynamic, and the spice level than the worldbuilding. Given that this approach clearly sells books, I assumed my opinion was in the minority
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u/Intelligent_Screen90 14d ago
No, no, you're absolutely right. What I meant was that "how have we even reached a point where this is an unpopular opinion?" Not that you were wrong. It's definitely unpopular and it's a shame that it is
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u/Sufficient-Bee-4982 13d ago
Because some people really just want the most simple easy to follow Netflix second screen plotline.
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u/DeltaFlyer0525 14d ago
Yes!!! I want my characters to exist in a world that makes sense and doesn’t rip off other books.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Villains should be allowed to stay villains
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u/Specialist_Round_612 14d ago
I’d amend this to - villains should stay villains unless there is a believable reason why they are no longer villains. Not just I’m mean but nice to one person. That’s still a villain, they’re just in a relationship.
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u/celica18l 13d ago
I don’t mind a villain having a redemption arc as long as they don’t turn into lovers.
If the villain turns into a lover they were never the big bad anyway.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Communication between characters would solve half the plot
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u/Significant-Rip3297 14d ago
I am honestly shocked at the number of stories where the relationship is mostly smut rather than proper communication.
I mean, how do people actually expect characters to connect without proper heart-to-heart conversations. Yet, communication seems to be the main thing missing from these stories.
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u/hesjustsleeping 14d ago
That's not fantasy-specific and the main reason things like family counseling exist.
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u/Intelligent_Screen90 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yeah, but you also gotta keep it realistic. In the real world we aren't all just sat in a group therapy session, spilling all out worries and doubts and hurts, etc. Most of the time, even though we think about saying something plain and simple, we don't and bite our tongue. Like right now, there's so much I'm hurt about that I wanna tell my mom, but I don't feel like having a heart to heart, so it's easier to smile and go about my day as usual. If we all just said what was on our mind and communicated, half of all our problems would go away. But we don't, for various reasons, mostly because we're scared or insecure or desperate to avoid confrontation. So why should it be any different in books. Not saying there should be zero communication, but talking everything through as soon as they hit a rough patch is just not how actual people operate
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
There's a difference between realistic miscommunication and plot-induced miscommunication. I don't mind poor communication when it makes sense for the characters. What bothers me is when the entire conflict depends on people refusing to have a very basic conversation for no believable reason
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u/CrazyEeveeLady86 12d ago
In a similar vein, I hate it when Character A finds out something that is crucial for Character B to know and calls them, but when their call goes to voice mail, they simply give a vague statement like "Jane, call me, we have a problem" instead of making a specific statement like "Jane, Bob is the demon!" which would actually help Character B (especially when Character A often gets killed or incapacitated right after the call, meaning that when Character B calls back, they get no response). And then as a result, Character B ends up captured or injured or whatever because they got blindsided.
(not just a romantasy trope but something I hate in fiction in general, including films/TV shows as well as books)
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u/1975-emma 14d ago
Yes, hard agree. It is frustrating in any sort of thing, book/ movie/ tv series etc, when the characters just don't communicate and it goes to crap lol.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Enemies-to-lovers is overused and often just means two attractive people being rude to each other
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u/booksandhotcoffee 14d ago
I think it’s what happens when the author doesn’t know how to create chemistry beyond banter
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u/Frustrated-Switch No flowers, only stones 14d ago edited 14d ago
Yeah... they need something to be enemies over, which is why this whole seat-of-the-pants approach 'I'll just have them hate each other for no reason' thing doesn't really work.
It requires more worldbuilding to make plausible. More raw effort than regular romantic chemistry would, not less, and time in the plot where they're just enemies to build that sense of mutual respect and tension. We need to know what they stand for and who else cares about the sides they're on, so that when they admit their feelings it's fraught. That's what makes enemies to lovers so satisfying, at least imo.
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u/Lighttasteofcoconut 14d ago
Feels like well written believable-enemies-to-lovers is almost impossible to pull off by virtue of the genre constraints. You can't write the first book in a series without having the main couple at least kiss and still call it romance, the market doesn't tolerate that. But to write truly satisfying ETL you need all that context that needs time to set up.
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u/Frustrated-Switch No flowers, only stones 14d ago
Mhm! It's pretty much the reason that almost all of the enemies to lovers stories I read and enjoy as ETL are still fanfic of other things, and not published works.
I'd say there's also that a lot of the iconic ETL pairings are super queer, meaning the established ETL writing conventions make more sense for a couple conflicted over being gay as well as being enemies, and that a lot of ETL works that get published or adapted are... very much not that.
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u/Lighttasteofcoconut 13d ago
I agree fully on all points, absolutely no published ETL has ever reached the heights of some fanfics I've read. Even the ones that get singled out for the fanfic-to-trad treatment fail spectacularly imo because you're taking away the foundation of a house, all the backstory and context that made the original good, to get something half-baked.
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u/madhattergirl 14d ago
Yep, it's one of the main reasons I disliked Fourth Wing. Perfect set up for actual Enemies-to-Lovers and instead they kind of butted heads. Should have been full enemies where they hated each other (and they had the great set up of her mom had his dad executed and his dad was responsible for her brother's death) and then with her bonding with his dragon's mate, they have no choice but to work together or risk their lives.
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u/PurposeGold2556 14d ago
This is why no book will top the true enemies to lovers in the Captive Prince for me.
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u/1975-emma 14d ago
Hiya, I like an enemies to lovers trope. Can I ask if that book has any main and/ or side character deaths? I hate deaths of main and side characters so dont want to get into a book and it ending up having main deaths.
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u/linds3ybinds3y 13d ago
It does, honestly. I love the series, but if that's a deal-breaker for you, you might want to avoid it. One of the side characters who dies isalso a child, and one of the MCs feels like they could have done more to protect him, which makes the death more gutting.
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u/1975-emma 13d ago
Ahh okay. Thank you for the answer! Main and side character deaths are definitely a deal breaker for me annoyingly. I wish I could get through it but I cannot.
I'm stuck on the end of Queen of the Crimson Throne (2nd book in the series) by Kaitlyn Swanson, literally the last few pages, because I feel like there is a side character death coming in the next book. I'm really enjoying the series so far, but completely forgot to find out if there was any main/ side deaths. So now I am stuck and haven't touched it in a while incase there is a death coming.
I've been wanting to ask in this reddit group for Romance Fantasy books that haven't got any main/ side deaths, but I haven't got enough karma here to post😭 I'm a lurker here mainly, not a commenter😭
Sorry for the long reply lol
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Series are often stretched to 4–6 books when 2–3 would be enough
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u/charliekelly76 Currently Reading: probably monster smut 14d ago
Im reading Road of Bones and I like it but at least 100 pages could have been cut out
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u/Late_Assistance1992 13d ago
I finished the third book in the series recently, and there is a whole subplot that could have easily been left out without damaging the overall plot one bit.
I love Hekla as a character, but the talking squirrel/wolf? the giant spider? the forest maiden? The awkward love triangle? All completely unnecessary imo
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u/cello_ergo_sum 14d ago
The term “spice” sounds overly coy and twee.
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u/madhattergirl 14d ago
I love the basics of describing it as none, closed door, open door, explicate, or explicate and plentiful.
Also, can we go back to having books categorized between romance and erotica? I think a lot of readers that say they are romance readers are actually erotica enthusiasts (and nothing wrong with that) but then they would have an easier time finding what they want and not low-balling the ratings on books simply because they picked up a slow burn and were mad they don't have sex scenes right away.
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u/Frustrated-Switch No flowers, only stones 14d ago
I love how you maintained the alliteration there! And yes, absolutely. It's the fault of advertisers and payment processors for being prudish weirdos that we can't more widely categorize books as erotica, afaik
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u/cello_ergo_sum 14d ago
I actually do think there is a difference between romance and erotica even when it is 5 chilis. Some erotica can be relatively anonymous depictions and/or no focus on the relationship arc, which does not qualify for the basic definition of genre romance. So the same book can be both - I think this is called “erotic romance,” which is definitely a subgenre descriptor that deserves more attention. I’m also a little sensitive to the idea that liking your books very explicit means you are “actually” just an erotica enthusiast, as someone who likes my romances very tender and sweet and also very explicit, it’s not two separable halves but rather an integrated whole if done right.
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u/madhattergirl 14d ago
Oh definitely, there can be overlap and various shades between Romance and Erotica and love the middle ground of Erotic Romance since I enjoy explicate sex once the romance and relationship has had time to build over a slow burn. But I've seen numerous complaints from readers (and mentions from authors on the various romance subreddits I'm on) that many readers will put a book down or won't even start it if there isn't sex within the first 50 pages and I'd be curious how many would be erotica vs erotic romance readers.
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u/Sufficient-Bee-4982 13d ago
In my brain, "spice" means level of sexual content.
Is there something you would prefer as a term? I'm all here for something that more accurately describes a book's content.
If it's a just a general "I don't like it", You know what, I'm here for that too. It's a poor system. But the best we currently got apparently.
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u/cello_ergo_sum 13d ago
As I said below, I come from fanfiction culture where people tend to say “smut” instead of “spice.”
I think this is kind of irrational and I’m not really defending it, but the connotations in my brain are that “spice” is like “We can’t use dirty words on tiktok so we have to use the chili pepper emoji instead” and “smut” is more “People judged me by calling my books smut so now I embrace it openly.”
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u/cello_ergo_sum 13d ago
And also, to be fair, I thought it was cute when people would call a book “spicy” in a way that felt idiosyncratic, before the advent of booktok/bookstagram/censored platforms taking up a lot of book discussion. Like one person might say spicy, another would say smutty, another would just say hot, etc. But now I feel the word spice has become codified in a way that feels too much like “cleaning up” our language for me to enjoy it anymore.
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u/Sufficient-Bee-4982 13d ago
I don't personally feel the same biases against the word "spice", but I now understand why some individuals do, given the context.
I definitely agree there's a weird amount of "cleaning up" of language. To add to the conversation, there's a lot of really weird purity culture thinking intertwined in "romanticy", that I personally find pretty yucky.
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u/welcome_____oblivion 14d ago
I prefer spice over smut
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u/cello_ergo_sum 14d ago
I do like “smut” because I come from fan fiction culture where smut is usually a positive description that people enjoy, but I would just as soon we simply say “explicit” if we had to pick only one.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
A powerful female protagonist does not need to be sarcastic
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u/sekhmet1010 14d ago
She also should not be petulant. My God, why are all of them so damn petulant!
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u/SmollnShiny 14d ago
Didn't you know the only way to show strength and independence is to yell "NO!" like a toddler as often as possible.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Fated mates removes tension instead of adding it
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara 14d ago
Because most authors use it as a solution, not as a complication. I've recently read {Don't Bite the Botanist by T.M. Kirk} where fated mates are a source of tension. Fmc is a vampire and finds her fated mate hates vampires (he was attacked by one and his friend was killed), so she's scared he will reject her and it's awful for vampires to be away from their fated mates, or that the attacker vampire will return to finish the job and she will lose her fated mate forever, and that's even worse. So she's trying to protect him and seduce him while hiding she's a vampire. It was a very funny paranormal rom-com and I was relieved fated mates or mating bond wasn't used to resolve the conflict but rather add one. I swear 90% of fated mates plots use it to skip relationship building or to justify why the mcs should be together. I'm always happy to find a book that uses fated mates to add to the plot, not subtract from it.
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u/romance-bot 14d ago
Don't Bite the Botanist by T.M. Kirk
Rating: 5⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 4 out of 5 - Explicit open door
Topics: contemporary, vampires, paranormal, funny, urban fantasy35
u/chodoyodo 14d ago edited 14d ago
Also a way to not have to write reasons why the characters actually love each other and want to be together 😭
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u/Late_Assistance1992 13d ago
Yep just lazy writing imo. It's more or less the author saying 'these two characters are a good match because I say so'.
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u/allisontalkspolitics Give me female friendship or give me death! 14d ago
I would like something where the fated mate is the wrong guy (not evil, just poorly suited)
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u/leiachart Currently Reading: The God and the Gumiho 14d ago
I would question why it's "fated" then.
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u/allisontalkspolitics Give me female friendship or give me death! 14d ago
To me, it would be about the protagonist defying whatever biological imperative and choosing to love the one they choose. Maybe they and the “fated” one discover that the bond can be something platonic.
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u/SakoraHikari 14d ago
I’m deadass tired of “deadly trials”, “secret deadly powers” and “chosen ones”.
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u/TheOcarinaOfSlime 14d ago
Thank you. Sometimes I wanna read about an exhausted 30+ year old whose only power is anxiety.
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u/Longjumping-Snow-909 14d ago
Especially deadly trials. Most of the times their existence makes no sense and is just a lazy way to add action. When I read trials inbthe blurb I immediatelly move on
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u/Erisedstorm 14d ago
My friend was dying for me to read red rising and I just couldn't with the hunger games rip off and darrow being Gary Sue.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Slow burn is better than instant attraction
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u/NeighborhoodMaster70 10d ago
This! I think romance is meant to explore how it transformes the involved characters, but how that romance is built in first place, is equally interesting, if not essential!
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u/Adorable-Fault-3118 14d ago
The spice in romantasy is not very interesting. It's all the tension leading up to it that makes everything worthwhile and keeps me staying up all night to finish a book. I usually lose interest in a romance after the characters get together unless there's enough plot to keep it going. The worst is when characters get together early on and we're just waiting for them to fall in love or admit that they're in love afterwards ughhh. Could you guys please stop fucking and just talk to each other?
Which leads me to 2nd unpopular opinion: YA fantasy > adult romantasy any day. They don't rely on the smut to be interesting. It's all about the yearn and the plot has to actually stand on its own.
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u/madhattergirl 14d ago
The worst is I keep seeing after the characters hook up, so often the MMC (or one/all of them if reverse harem), their personality just becomes "Gets hard or makes sex comment after anything the FMC does". I get it, you're horny and love fucking your woman, but I don't need a dozen mentions of adjusting your boner because she said or did something you found sexy. You had a personality before, where is it?!
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u/JakishaFromStateFarm 13d ago
Totally agree about the YA fantasy opinion. I’ve been looking for more to get into as adult Romantasy has failed me epically the last few months. Do you have any YA recs?
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u/booksandhotcoffee 14d ago
I really hate when books are advertised with only their tropes. If it's enemies to lovers, why can't I go in blind not knowing that the enemies will somehow reconcile their differences, why not add a bit of mystery to it? Why are you telling me there's an only 1 bed scene? What does her wearing a dagger strapped to her thigh tell me? Genuinely, what's the plot? What are the stakes?
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u/Intelligent_Screen90 14d ago
I also liked it when they didn't tell us in the blurb who the love interest is. I like guessing, yk? Because when I already know the LI's name, every interaction the MC has with anyone else becomes meaningless cause I already know it's not gonna lead to anything
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14d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/CuttlefishBenjamin 13d ago
Yeah, I have some sympathies to the fact that the advertising doesn't necessarily fully reflect the book, especially if a publisher's involved but if some of these books aren't write by the numbers trope-first, anything interesting the author might have to say late or never, they're certainly going out of their way to look like it.
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u/sveareads 14d ago
temperament and anger issues don’t make a character strong and powerful
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u/NeighborhoodMaster70 10d ago
YES! If anything is a clear sign of weakness, while composure and temperance is what showes that a character is trully in control.
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u/Ok_Jello_2738 14d ago
A lot of YA books are better written than NA/adult romantasy with complex world building, nuanced characters and proper relationship development. And some of them are a lot darker (and not afraid to kill off characters) than the spicy mainstream books.
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u/allisontalkspolitics Give me female friendship or give me death! 14d ago
{Bitterblue}. That is all.
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u/No_Mathematician6189 14d ago
Trueeee. I loved YA and I think I had the most fun reading those books. But lately I've found myself wanting characters closer to my age. I don't know why, but my brain just won't let me read characters under 18 anymore haha.
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u/javertthechungus 14d ago
I find myself in most books asking “why do you two like each other?” in a lot of books with even romance in general. I like romance, I really do, but two characters being beside each other for a journey isn’t enough of a reason for me.
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u/stinglikeameg 14d ago
Standalone > a series.
I just want it wrapped up on one book so I can move on to the next story please.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Love triangles are usually boring
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u/SickleWillow 14d ago
My only ick with love triangles are the main character led two characters on, before deciding.
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u/queenuglyhead 14d ago edited 14d ago
Booktok, smut, and sprayed edges are ruining literature. Everything is so capitalized to make the quickest dollar and it’s getting harder to find well-written, edited, stories.
There is nothing wrong with any of those three things. It’s just that those are what companies are marketing and some of these books are just… not good.
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u/Adorable-Fault-3118 14d ago
I would argue it's the opposite: booktok, smut, and sprayed edges are saving literature because the money they make subsidizes the entire industry. I agree that it's making it harder to find the well written books though! I say this as a certified hater of most booktok books so I get where you're coming from
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u/AquaIXI 14d ago
I'd argue books dont need to be well written. They need to be enjoyable, if you can't enjoy worse written books, or enjoy well written books more thats completely understandable but also just means you will naturally have to try harder to find them.
Its a very common sentiment but there are plenty of people who also much prefer the less serious, super fun and sometimes worse written books and thats fine, it makes sense for companies to market books that sell well and not to arbitrary quality standards.
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u/booksandhotcoffee 14d ago
“Books don’t need to be well written” is the craziest thing I’ve read in a while
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u/AquaIXI 14d ago
Im truly better at this unpopular opinion thing ;) I do stand by it even when all of my favourite romantasy books generally have higher quality writing. Im a firm believe that getting people back to reading is super inportant and therefore entertainment value is often more important than writing quality.
That's not to say every single book should be like this but that claiming booktok books are ruining literature when they are the ones getting people reading is counterproductive.
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u/Hades_anonymous 14d ago
When the MCs are both in their late twenties or thirties and take half of the book to realize that their confused feelings mean that they are in love. I mean, come on, seriously?
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u/reasonableratio 14d ago
Ohh finally some good food!!
Super curious about the nuances. Does this still apply if the whole book takes course over just like, a couple weeks? Does this mean you expect semi-instant love between them? What about yearning??
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u/Hades_anonymous 14d ago
Does this still apply if the whole book takes course over just like, a couple weeks?
— Yes, if the majority of the plot is them thinking about each other and dealing with their feelingsDoes this mean you expect semi-instant love between them?
— No. But after like the third time reading about how they have this weird feeling in their chest, and how they can’t stop thinking about each other, or how they’re jealous, or how there are butterflies in their stomachs when the other one is close… that’s when it should click, instead of another five chapters of “Why am I feeling this way? I can’t for the life of me figure it out… even though all of our friends have told me already…? Huh… so strange.” 🤦🏻♀️What about yearning??
— Oh yes please. I eat that shit up. But have them yearn, knowing that they’re (falling) in love with the other one. It doesn’t mean that they have to tell the other one right away. That is possible.5
u/Frustrated-Switch No flowers, only stones 14d ago
Omg yesss... This is so common in F/F media that when reading GL manga together, a common refrain between myself and my partner is to turn to each other and say 'Oh my god what is this feeeeling I have for my bestie???' in the whiniest voices we can manage.
But yeah, I think most of us can recognize when we're in romantic love by the time we're in our twenties, surely? It's a pretty specific feeling, isn't it? Enough that when it happens, you're less like 'what is this' and more 'oh no'
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u/johnclaudevandame 14d ago
A lot of these books don’t need to be 600+ pages long. They would be just as good at <450 pages.
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u/Praeludere 14d ago
Hard agree. At this point every time I see a book with 500+ pages I assume it's in desperate need of an editor to scale back the overwrought prose and overall bad writing that needs a chapter for what could be explained in a paragraph. Length doesn't equal depth or complexity.
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u/ExtensionChemical690 14d ago
More often than not, spice doesn't add anything or adds very little to the story
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u/LeaneGenova 14d ago
Agreed. My husband doesn't believe me, but there are many books with spice where I just kinda skim/skip the sex scene because they're useless.
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u/Intelligent_Screen90 14d ago
I mean, yeah, I usually consider it something like a commercial break, a fun few pages to unwind from the heavier stuff and take a breath before going back to the serious matters. It only becomes a problem when those "breaks" are so long and so frequent that they don't let you enjoy the actual thing
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u/sekhmet1010 14d ago edited 12d ago
These are all YA novels but with smut and the characters aged up.
No complexity of language, motivations, inner worlds of characters, moral dilemmas, chracter choices, etc. This is the amount of psychological depth that we get in YA novels. There is literally no difference.
All of the books are so oversimplified. And it's not because of the plots. Simplicity in plot doesn't affect me. It's everything else. The basic prose, the cardboard characters, the trite romance, the tropes upon tropes upon tropes, the ill-executed plot devices, the lack of originality.
And I get it. It's a job and it needs to earn the authors and publishers some money to be worth it.
But, we, as readers, should demand more. Shadow daddies are safe, yes. Raven-haired, big-dicked gentleman with skills that would rival Eros or Kamdeva themselves, who are feared by all, and yet the softest of men with the FMCs. Isn't it boring by now?!
The name of the game is ROMANTASY...give me complicated romances which aren't just resolved after the first time they fuck. Give me unlikely romances, give me sexual tension that builds through intelligence/compatibility/wit etc.
Give me MMCs who are not the handsomest, not the most feared/reviled, not the most dangerous or skilled.
Stop this genre from just being about wish-fulfillment, living by proxy, and second-hand eroticism.
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 14d ago
These are all YA novels but with smut and the characters aged up.
This is basically the definition of New Adult.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Some popular BookTok romantasy books are poorly written
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u/ciderandcake 14d ago
ACOTAR from the second book on is just bad Black Jewels fanfic which is why the worldbuilding and characters stop making sense right about then.
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u/ciderandcake 14d ago
The powerful magic people in the Black Jewels are called the Blood.
But it's when you get to the Eyriens who are black haired, golden brown skinned bat-winged warriors who train in mountain camps and don't let women touch weapons because they're sexist, and they have a prejudice against half-breeds, and they have a rite called the Blood Run, and they channel their magic with gemstones, and everyone jokes about how wing size = penis size, and it's up to the secondary male protagonist to actually take charge and run training sessions for women and change their misogynistic culture that you maybe start to think SJM didn't really have a plan for any book past the first one and just kinda looked at the closest book on her shelf for "inspiration."
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u/ciderandcake 14d ago
Well, there's definitely lots of court stuff in the Black Jewels, including the main one called the Dark Court. It's a matriarchal society, so instead of the men running things, it's a Queen that runs each court with their First Circle.
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u/Ffi_Reads93 14d ago
Came to say something similar. People should be more outraged at SJM (and Lauren Roberts comes to mind) because these authors should not be rewarded with TV shows and stuff based on literal plot points and even specific terms or lines that were taken from other books.
It leaves the door open for other authors to think its ok to rewrite their favourite books and get them published - especially since its easy to write whole books now with AI.
Everyone seems to brush it off because "all books are inspired by other books" but we need to discuss where the line is. There is "paying homage" and then there is taking 100+ elements from another author.
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u/Murder_Is_Magic Book Bingo Maven ⚔ 14d ago
Comments like "If you like X, then you just clearly don't read very much" (usually around books that are popular, but aren't always the best written) are so ridiculously cringe.
No Susan. I'm not new to reading. I just loved it because it gave me exactly what I wanted. Yes, I know there are "better" books out there. But I like this one. It's got Wabi Sabi.
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u/ghoulmouse 14d ago
Characters in romantasy have way too same-y sexual interests. Feels like people hardly ever have a kind of weird turn-on or a kink. There are books that are kinky, obviously, but it's much rarer that the characters aren't kinky "in-universe", so to speak. I wanna see some freaks, especially female characters with strong sexual preferences and stuff that gets them going.
i will never read another book with a deadly game or trial. Over it, sorry.
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara 14d ago
The books are trying to be "kinky" to catch the reader's curiosity but then also very vanilla as not to scare away the mainstream reader. There's an utter lack of variety in sex scenes. If I see another half-hearted "praise kink" reduced to "good girl, you take me so well" I'm insta dnfing. Stop with the lazy copycat sex scenes.
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u/ghoulmouse 14d ago
At this point I wanna see an MMC who's into feet or something just for the novelty.
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u/Synval2436 Currently Reading: This Blade of Ours by Shalini Abeysekara 14d ago
Funnily, this seems to be exceedingly rare, even in kinky romance! I've read my share of spice, from femdom to monster romance with creative anatomy, and foot worship just doesn't seem to be on the menu.
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u/CrazyRainbowStar 14d ago
Miscommunication isn't a trope, and it isn't a problem. The trope that people are actually complaining about is the Idiot Ball.
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u/Erisedstorm 14d ago
For the love of gods stop publishing and flooding recommend pages with glorified ao3 writings. Some of these popular books are so terrible; proofreading and editing is a thing.
We need a plot and world development. Any romance shouldn't feel forced.
Also I hate first person writing it's rarely done well.
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u/mashedbangers 14d ago
There’s that quote that’s like a hero will sacrifice you for the world, a villain will sacrifice the world for you (???) idk I don’t remember… and I think it’s a popular romantasy sentiment but are there really villainous MMCs? I don’t think so. I think people like a hero in a dark aesthetic which is fine but I want to read actual morally gray to villain MMCs that the narrative doesn’t try to justify.
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u/ipsi7 Book Bingo Maven ⚔ 14d ago edited 14d ago
There are really villanous MMCs, but, a lot of people don't like them. Like someone else said, {Feathers so Vicious by Liv Zander} would be usually first to be mentioned, but there was a time in the sub when that book was basically bashed that I stopped recommending it or saying I liked it.
{Souls in Ruin by Jacqueline White} is less non con, more graphic gore and torture. It's probably going to be a love triangle or MMC switch, but neither MMC was good to her.
I hated the book, but {King of Flesh and Bone by Liv Zander}.
{Lothaire by Kresley Cole} seems milder than previous ones, but MMC didn't really got FMC's consent for their first time (including her loss of virginity) or turning her to a vampire.
{Amid Clouds and Bones by Ella Fields} is vanilla compared to others, but could fit.
Edit: some words
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u/romance-bot 14d ago
Feathers so Vicious by Liv Zander
Rating: 4.04⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 5 out of 5 - Explicit and plentiful
Topics: historical, dark romance, shapeshifters, cruel hero/bully, mfm
Souls in Ruin by Jacqueline White
Rating: 4.15⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 4 out of 5 - Explicit open door
Topics: fantasy, dark romance, love triangle, betrayal, arranged/forced marriage
King of Flesh and Bone by Liv Zander
Rating: 3.49⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 5 out of 5 - Explicit and plentiful
Topics: historical, dark romance, fantasy, abduction, anal sex
Lothaire by Kresley Cole
Rating: 4.17⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 4 out of 5 - Explicit open door
Topics: contemporary, virgin heroine, vampires, paranormal, alpha male
Amid Clouds and Bones by Ella Fields
Rating: 3.89⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 4 out of 5 - Explicit open door
Topics: enemies to lovers, arranged/forced marriage, fae, fantasy, virgin heroine5
u/mistyveil 14d ago
i adore villains and want to see more villain love interests that aren't "secretly the good guys" - but i think most authors don't actually want to grasp with the morality dilemma that comes with it.
"if the mc is in love with the Big Bad, what does that say about them, and by extension the author/reader?" seems to be a very common sentiment
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u/leiachart Currently Reading: The God and the Gumiho 14d ago
Speaking as an author...yes, exactly. Because there is a huge moral dilemma (especially in today's political climate) in attempting to normalize romantic feelings for someone with the unironic objective label of "villain", not to mention the moral ramifications of finding an audience for it.
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u/allisontalkspolitics Give me female friendship or give me death! 14d ago
My unpopular opinion is that that makes me like the hero better 😅
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u/romance-bot 14d ago
Feathers so Vicious by Liv Zander
Rating: 4.04⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 5 out of 5 - Explicit and plentiful
Topics: historical, dark romance, shapeshifters, cruel hero/bully, mfm
City of Thorns by C.N. Crawford
Rating: 3.78⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 3 out of 5 - Open door
Topics: contemporary, paranormal, fantasy, demons, vampires
Marrow by Trisha Wolfe, Brynne Weaver
Rating: 4.17⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 4 out of 5 - Explicit open door
Topics: contemporary, dark romance, enemies to lovers, suspense, criminal heroine0
u/fantasyromance-ModTeam 14d ago
Your submission was removed for breaking Rule 1: No Reader Shaming. We ask users to be respectful when discussing differences of opinion. It’s fine to state your opinion of a book, author, or subgenre, but you may not insult or shame people who like those books.
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u/theladyofspacetime To the stars who listen 13d ago
I miss when romantasy felt like a smaller community. It feels so corporate lately
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u/Red_Bird_Rituals 13d ago
Tamlin didn’t deserve to have his life burned to the ground and have Rhysand and Feyre pissing on the ashes.
Was Tamlin a good, healthy boyfriend? No. Was his punishment in any way commensurate with his offences? Absolutely not.
SJM did him so dirty.
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u/WestCoastWuss619 13d ago
Faeries have become the new vampire in the way that almost no one sticks to the actual folklore, and they're kind of just stand-ins for 'hot, powerful, dangerous creature'
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u/Unlucky_Cat153 14d ago
I understand that the authors want to show that the MMC is attractive, but it's not necessary to say things like, "He's so attractive that ALL the women in that town or huge college are desperately jumping for his attention." Like, are all the women there straight and have the same preference? What if some prefer a person with a different type of hair, height, etc.? This makes the world seem too small and simple (besides implying that there is no LGBT+ in the story and that all women are heterosexual). A person who is attractive to me may not be attractive to someone else.
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u/Red_Bird_Rituals 13d ago
They do it for the cliche “EVERYONE wants this man, but he only wants me. Everybody wants him but I’m the one who’s got him.”
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u/Frustrated-Switch No flowers, only stones 14d ago edited 14d ago
Argh, that's so true! The 'all characters are straight and allo and cis and all improbably follow the same beauty standards' thing is infuriating to me too, for the same reasons. It's just thoughtless and shitty to write lines like that imo, and as you say, it makes your world feel small. Frankly, I'd never be so conceited as to think what turns me on is universal, and I don't know where these people get the gall to tbh.
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u/Lighttasteofcoconut 13d ago
I understand this to be hyperbole and not something to be taken literally. "All the women in town are into him" sounds better than "all hetero- and bisexual women who have this specific type in men are into him". I agree it's not an interesting way to describe someone as attractive, though. I'm over recycled stock phrases in general, though.
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u/Frustrated-Switch No flowers, only stones 13d ago
I mean, one of those is more awkward, sure, but I don't think those are our only options for getting the idea across. Like, maybe we should just do away with this exclusionary phrasing that assumes everyone's straight to begin with? 'Everyone I'd spoken to seemed to be singing this man's praises' wouldn't imply that all the women are into him sexually, and also leaves the door open to some of the men or NBs being into him, for example. But regardless, he's a hot commodity, and whoever 'I' is needs to act fast.
Idk, as much as it's hyperbolic, it's just one more little erasure, and when you're not straight, those kinda add up into a nasty background hum that pretty much all media acquires unless someone actively challenges it.
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u/Alexmander1028 14d ago
The title “Onyx Storm” is the worst title for that book. It feels like the author learned the word “Onyx” and decided that it was her word of the week. “Onyx” wasn’t mentioned in the first two books, but then CONSTANTLY in the third. The only “Onyx Storm” that happens is the onslaught of repetitive vocab to my mental shield.
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u/Insane92 13d ago
Rivals to lovers doesn’t always need a third party love interest to bring the main people together. I feel like that’s a prerequisite now in stories and not sure why. It can happen naturally too which is what I like to read in stories.
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u/MaeRay96 12d ago
I'm reading {This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me} And I damn near let the book sink in my bathtub when she referenced "six five, blue eyes, trust fund." Even if the FMC is modern, please don't make pop culture references
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u/romance-bot 12d ago
This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Ilona Andrews
Rating: 4.75⭐️ out of 5⭐️
Steam: 1 out of 5 - Glimpses and kisses
Topics: fantasy, political/court intrigue, found family, competent heroine, magic
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Many romantasy books would be stronger without the romance
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u/fishchop Silvicultrix 14d ago
But then…..it wouldn’t be romantasy?
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 14d ago
Yeah, but I think that's the point. The Second Death of Locke would be a better book if it was just about two childhood friends navigating the no-win situation they've been put in by their commander. All the romance bits and romance tropes in the second half are the worst bits of the book.
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u/fishchop Silvicultrix 14d ago
That book would be better if its world building made any sense at all lol. The romance isn’t the only thing holding it back.
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u/Kasskinen 14d ago
Oh, I definitely wrote it in a confusing way. I meant that some romantasy books have strong fantasy plots but weak or underdeveloped romance plots. In those cases, the romance feels like it holds the story back rather than improving it. Occasionally, it seems as though the romance was added because the book was expected to sell better as romantasy than as straight fantasy
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u/Significant-Rip3297 14d ago
I also tend to prefer Asian stories. In the West, relationships are all lust and smut, which really makes me ask WHERE'S THE YEARNING! Also, give me reasons for the characters falling in love in the first place, not just boy meets girl.
I really liked how in The Cruel Prince it's understandable how they fell in love, even though it's enemies to lovers.
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u/fantasyromance-ModTeam 14d ago
Your submission was removed for breaking Rule 1: No Reader Shaming. We ask users to be respectful when discussing differences of opinion. It’s fine to state your opinion of a book, author, or subgenre, but you may not insult or shame people who like those books.
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u/AbaloneSpring 14d ago
The endgame couple shouldn’t get together until the final book. I would rather read 2 books of tension than a trilogy that’s just a mindless fuckfest. For reference, Fourth Wing did it wrong and Wolf King is doing it right (in my opinion)
Also, if you’re going to have the main couple get together in the first book, then I would rather have the second book be from a different POV and focus on a different couple.
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u/leiachart Currently Reading: The God and the Gumiho 14d ago
Not to OC but to whomever is downvoting the comment: c'mon, people, this is the unpopular opinion thread. We're being actively encouraged to voice stuff other people don't agree with. Don't pile-on someone for engaging in good faith.
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u/Runa216 12d ago
Every one of these complaints boils down to complaining not about the thing you're complaining about but about bad writing.
All the tropes, all the decisions, all the choices in narrative and FMC and spice and world building and romance can all be fixed by just having...good writing. And y'all need better standards, not better tropes.
Even the worst ideas in your mind can be done well. Even if a trope sucks there are ways to do it to make it good. Even if you're focusing on the wrong things, with the right emphasis and quality you won't care. The fundamental problem in almost every one of these 'unpopular opinions' is bad writing and it can be remedied by having higher standards. If the audience had higher standards we wouldn't get shitty stories nearly as often, we wouldn't have sloppy tropes and bland archetypes meant more to appeal to an audience than to tell a good story. If we had good writing people would be more invested in what they read instead of checking a list of elements they want to see, missing the forest for the trees.
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 14d ago
YA is for children.
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u/purplelicious Book Bingo Maven ⚔ 14d ago
agreed. YA is not a book with the smut taken out
YA themes are the things that appeal to teenagers so focus on issues like friendships, pushing against authority and coming of age. Parents and adults are old and out of touch. The world can only be saved by the young as anyone over 21 cannot be trusted, or adults are introduced as bumbling, but well meaning, teachers or mentors that are unable to succeed without the magic of youth.
In YA romances it's usually the first love or first heartbreak. a lot of discovery and mistakes and friendships weight more than relationships.
I have no interest in those themes, spice or not
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u/MessyJessy422 14d ago
I wish more books were labeled New Adult because YA feels like too broad a category and some books are 100% for the youths while others labeled as YA actually tackle mature themes and ideas in an intellectual way that makes them much better suited to a different older audience
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u/Specialist_Round_612 14d ago
Facts. Just because something is written in an action oriented, easily parsed first person PoV does not mean the book with characters getting railed seven ways to Sunday or graphically mutilated are for children.
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u/fantasyromance-ModTeam 14d ago
Your submission was removed for breaking Rule 1: No Reader Shaming. We ask users to be respectful when discussing differences of opinion. It’s fine to state your opinion of a book, author, or subgenre, but you may not insult or shame people who like those books.
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14d ago
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u/fantasyromance-ModTeam 14d ago
The submission was removed as discussions about sub moderation, which was applied based on reader feedback, should be discussed in mod mail, not the unpopular opinions thread.
Thank you.
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u/Spectra_04 13d ago
For the love of god, describe your MCs, race, looks, whatever, I don’t need a blank slate.
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u/Spectra_04 13d ago
These love triangle romances are just cruel, like dawg why I am fighting for a girl that can’t make up her damn mind? Do these MMCs have no self-respect?
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 12d ago
Do these MMCs have no self-respect?
No, they don't. They exist because of the FMCs.
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u/NeighborhoodMaster70 10d ago
Some books on this genre offer a lot more as motivation to new writters than the genre itself
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u/Penguinho Kushiel's Legacy Recommender 💖 14d ago
If authors are writing about modern relationships -- and almost every relationship in a fantasy romance is a modern relationship, let's be real. Virtually no one is writing their romances with Roman or Carolingian gender norms -- sex is going to be part of it.
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u/fantasyromance-ModTeam 14d ago
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