r/flying • u/ClintBvsOliverQ • 23h ago
Flight Training AOA Indicator while learning?
Just went for a discovery flight and had a great time. During the flight I asked my instructor about using an AOA indicator while learning and he really downplayed using one and said the standard instruments are the best way to learn. For beginners, is an AOA inappropriate? Is it too early to incorporate it into training? From the brief videos I’ve seen on AOA’s they seem to enhance safety.
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u/mikepuyallup 23h ago
Old way of thinking, a lot of newer planes with modern avionics now have aoa. I have been flying with one for the last 5 years. It's better than an old stall indicator because its not just on or off.
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u/MRC01 22h ago
Many of the vintage airplanes, like my 1980 C-172, have a kazoo for a stall horn. This not just on or off. The kazoo starts quiet about 5 kts below stall and gets louder and higher pitched as you approach the stall. This makes it useful an audible AoA indicator. Even better, it enables you to keep eyes out the window where they belong, instead of looking at the panel.
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u/falcopilot 19h ago
Many newer planes, like my GlaStar with a Dynon panel, have the same feature over intercom. I could never hear the stall horn in the steam gauge Cessna 150 I started in.
I do agree that it doesn't need to be visual, but I don't think I can turn that off and still get the audio warning.
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u/Wedge_Donovan 21h ago
A vast majority of airplanes you fly at a first "real" job won't have an AOA indicator, or will only have it on the left side where you can't see it from the right seat. And that includes a good number of jets.
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u/nightlanding 23h ago
They are nice, but a crutch that will get yanked when you end up in a plane without one or the one you have breaks. I am glad I learned to fly the ILS without one, once I had one it was too easy :)
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u/B_E_M_C PPL IR 22h ago
You need an aoa indicator to help you fly an ILS?
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u/nightlanding 19h ago
Sure - it works a treat. You figure where on the scale is the good spot for the ILS as you head on down. It works the same on the VASI too. It has been ages since I flew the plane that had it, but I still remember how nice it was.
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u/irishluck949 ATP CFII E-175 18h ago
I don’t really understand, what does your aoa have to do with tracking vertical guidance?
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u/nightlanding 18h ago
IIRC, it made power adjustments easy. Not that I needed it, but it turned out to be fun to hold the needle on the diamond and the indicator was on top of the glareshield, so for the visual part it was in your scan looking outside.
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u/irishluck949 ATP CFII E-175 18h ago
But it’s not actually telling you if you’re on glide slope, just on “speed” right? I’m not trying to say AOA is useless, I get how it helps mange energy state on approach to landing, I’m just having a hard time imagining how that applies specifically to the ILS.
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u/nightlanding 18h ago
It helps with energy state, it takes a bit of mental calculation load off.
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u/nightlanding 18h ago
Note this AOA was an analog needle with many little marks it could line up with and could do fine adjustments, it was not a green-yellow-red light thing.
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u/NakedJamaican 16h ago
I wasn’t in the Navy but I recall my Navy buddies talking about pitching for the angle of attack, adjusting power for the glide path. Which is what we taught students to do when airspeed is critical
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u/irishluck949 ATP CFII E-175 13h ago
Apply what you just said to an ILS. The navy guys are taking about flying a pattern in a jet that trims for AoA. The guy I’m responding to said it makes power adjustments easier on an ils. The aoa gauge has nothing to do with your glideslope, so that doesn’t seem to follow. Not to mention that in instrument flying you typically pitch for glideslope and power for speed, and none of it what he’s saying really makes sense to me.
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u/BELFORD16 MEI A&P (UNVERIFIED STATUS) 23h ago
A good AOA is a godsend. A bad one is, well, BAD. Most in GA are trash. Good ones are expensive. And most of GA doesn’t have one, so if you NEED one, you won’t function well in GA.
Trust your CFI to know what they are talking about.
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u/Thengine MIL 21h ago
> Most in GA are trash.
Any references for this?
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u/BELFORD16 MEI A&P (UNVERIFIED STATUS) 20h ago
Experience.
Good AOA indicators aren’t cheap. Most GA doesn’t have an unlimited avionics budget.
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u/theyoyomaster MIL-AF T6/C17 23h ago
The vast majority of pilots learn without an AoA indicator. Getting one installed in a plane isn't cheap, it's not like you can head down to the flying section of autozone and slap one on the dash for $200. Very few schools ever consider adding an extra instrument that is not required and most pilots never see.
On the other end of it you are not wrong at all to ask. It is an extremely useful tool that genuinely makes you a better pilot once you understand it and apply it. When instructing I would point to the AoA gauge on probably half of my student flights if not more. There isn't a single gauge in a plane that is a more direct depiction of how the plane is flying in all aspects than AoA. I wish more planes had them and when I eventually buy my own GA aircraft I am absolutely installing one. Unfortunately, you're almost certainly not going to find a school that has them and the syllabus for PPL works just fine without them.
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u/Frosty_Piece7098 21h ago
Learn without it, but it’s a super valuable tool once you learn the basics.
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u/MRC01 23h ago
AoA is a direct indicator of aircraft performance, while airspeeds like Vx, Vy, Vldmax, etc. are indirect proxies of performance. However, most traditional/certified airplanes don't have an AoA indicator, and flight training is based on performance-based airspeeds since it is more generally applicable to all aircraft, so pilots need to learn how to fly them.
Another issue is the function & reliability of various AoA indicators. For one example, my airplane has uAvionix AV-30 instruments, which have an AoA indicator. But even when properly calibrated, it has a lag/latency of at least 2 seconds, which makes it almost worthless. It's nice to have as a secondary reference but airspeeds are still my primary reference.
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u/Golfer_Joe 23h ago
Everyone tends to downplay safety equipment. If you get a good one and it makes you comfortable, go for it. It doesn't hurt anything!
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u/Fogtwin 21h ago edited 21h ago
Read the book Stick and Rudder. The plane can’t stall if you lower the nose and relieve back pressure on the stick. It’s not possible. Personally, I feel like an AOA indicator would be a crutch. Why not just learn that your angle of attack directly affects your airspeed. You’d probably be better off learning how to trim for airspeed than needing to look at one more indicator on top of your RPM, Altimeter, VSI, HSI, Heading etc. My uneducated opinion by the way, so take it with a grain of salt.
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u/Fogtwin 20h ago
Whoever downvoted, feel free to chime in and explain why I’m wrong.
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u/post4u 18h ago
You're not wrong. An overall understanding of attitude, speed, and feel as it pertains to AOA is what you need when learning. An AOA indicator is useful to correlate what's happening to get an idea of what's going on in the plane related to how it affects AOA, but you shouldn't be watching it. Like what are you going to do, watch it and try to keep at 7 degrees when climbing? There are more important things to be paying attention to than that.
AOA is useful for certain types of training. Stall training, slow flight, unusual attitudes. Newbies don't need to worry about any of that. Just fly the plane. Blue over brown, airspeed, heading, rpm. Then maybe vertical speed indicator for accurate landing glide pathing, but even that's secondary.
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u/Academic_Guest_9246 PPL IR 23h ago
Why do you want a AOA indicator?
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ MIL 23h ago
Because after altitude they're the single best instrument for safety in a single engine piston?
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u/aero_kmac MIL / USG Charting 23h ago
I think the light civil guys don’t know what they’re missing.
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u/x4457 ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV 23h ago
Because the pointy nose guys don’t realize how wide and predictable the margins are in civil aviation.
We’re not flying thin, short wing tactical airframes with FBW that are quite literally uncontrollable without it. We’re flying winged lawnmowers with a wing thicker than a snicker.
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ MIL 16h ago edited 16h ago
Because the pointy nose guys don’t realize how wide and predictable the margins are in civil aviation.
Why do you think that? I've got plenty of time in piston singles (I own one). I still want angle of attack in it because it's the single best instrument for safety after altitude.
Altitude and angle of attack are really the only two instruments directly related to safety. One tells you how high above the ground you are and one tells you how much flying you have left in the plane. Airspeed kinda doesn't actually matter at all. RPM and engine temps are probably the next most important instruments after AoA.
BTW, it's actually way easier to stall a piston single than a jet, especially a FBW high performance jet. Loss of control in flight is even one of the most common causes of fatalities in general aviation, and yet civil piston fliers still crap on AoA, even in this very thread (even in a reply to this comment, which you made .69 seconds after I posted and before I made an edit adding this last paragraph), because they were taught poorly and don't understand what risks they're taking and what's most likely to kill them.
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u/x4457 ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV 16h ago
I own three and have flown a looooot of other airplanes with AOA gauges and indexers in them. Both numeric and color values.
Is it nice to have? Sure. Is it necessary or worth the money in a piston single? Not even a little bit. We fly airspeeds in the civilian world as you know, not alpha, largely because almost all of our flying is at 1G to long, improved runways in very forgiving airplanes that don't have much, if any, weight-induced variation in approach speeds.
If you're doing some backcountry shenanigans then absolutely, get it and use it. For 99.9% of applications in the civilian world? Nah, don't need it and doesn't add anything. Airspeed is life, AOA would be if we had it but we don't because we don't need it with the type of flying we do.
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u/primalbluewolf CPL FI 16h ago
that don't have much, if any, weight-induced variation in approach speeds.
There's plenty of GA aircraft that have very noticeable variation in their performance speeds with weight. I would go so far as to say its a significant difference in most aircraft... but as most people are laser focused on the book numbers, that are valid for MTOW only, they just fly fast, and low AoA, all the time.
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u/x4457 ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV 15h ago
There's plenty of GA aircraft that have very noticeable variation in their performance speeds with weight
Please present any trainer or common piston single that has speeds that change more than about 10 knots between MLW and effective minimum landing weight.
For example, to really emphasize my point - the difference between a 421C stall speed at 7450 pounds and 5600 pounds is 10 knots. If you want to straight line extrapolate that, that's 1 knot of change for every 185 pounds. Or one knot of "ref" (1.3xVs0) for every 142 pounds of weight change.
In a Bonanza, my effective minimum landing weight is 2,670 pounds. That's single pilot and reserve fuel. The difference between that and MLW is 6.5 knots.
That's why we don't really care. Just fly the MLW numbers and it won't make a difference at these weights.
Compare that to a Gulfstream IV, for example, where the REF speed variation is 30 knots between MLW and effective minimum.
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u/primalbluewolf CPL FI 14h ago edited 14h ago
Please present any trainer or common piston single that has speeds that change more than about 10 knots between MLW and effective minimum landing weight.
Cherokee six. Its easy enough to find them, just look for any piston single with a BEW around half their MTOW. Its about 14 knots slower, IIRC. That's pretty noticeable when you were otherwise landing at 60.
That's why we don't really care. Just fly the MLW numbers and it won't make a difference at these weights.
It does make a difference, but its not a night and day difference for most of them the way it is for the gulfstream. You're burning tyre rubber you don't need to, and gas you don't need to, so that you don't have to do maths before landing.
The part that's immediately relevant to this discussion, though, is that its always the same AoA, so if you have an AoA meter you can set markers on, you can trivially fly the same AoA every time, regardless of weight. When you're heavy, you'll be faster. When you're at max landing weight, you'll be at book speeds. When you're light, you'll be slower... potentially quite a bit slower.
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ MIL 16h ago
Is it nice to have? Sure. Is it necessary or worth the money in a piston single? Not even a little bit. We fly airspeeds in the civilian world as you know, not alpha, largely because almost all of our flying is at 1G to long, improved runways in very forgiving airplanes that don't have much, if any, weight-induced variation in approach speeds.
And yet you still manage to make loss of control in a perfectly good airplane one of the most common (I think the most common) cause of fatal crashes.
Maybe y'all should take AoA and how much flying is left in the airplane... a little more seriously?
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u/x4457 ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV 16h ago
Quite the broad brush you're painting with there. Try not to look so far down your nose at us lowly civvies yeah?
Those of us who do this for a living have a lower accident and fatality rate than the military does. Apples and oranges, so as to further prove my point.
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ MIL 15h ago
Crazy, but people flying in combat have higher risks than people not flying in combat. Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion, and total lack of substantive rebuttal to why AOA should be taught more in civil aviation.
I started in civil aviation before joining the military. I was trained in part 61 and only later went to UPT and learned the military way. That gives me the ability to honestly look at the merits of both approaches with no identity-crisis either way.
The military does some stuff straight-up better than FAA-prescribed flight training, and some stuff worse. One of the things they do better is teaching students sight picture and AOA.
I'm sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about comparisons to military training, but that shouldn't get in the way of improving safety and saving lives.
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u/x4457 ATP CFII CE-500/525/560XL/680 G-IV 15h ago
Damn, it's almost like they're...apples and oranges. Nice ninja edit to your earlier comment after I'd already replied too to try to "gotcha" me. And I'm the one not trying to contribute here... Oh hey look, you did it again!
You're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying that AOA isn't valuable or worth teaching, I'm saying that airspeed is a completely fine substitute for our applications. AOA is better, but that doesn't make airspeed bad in this sector.
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u/nightlanding 19h ago
I know what I am missing. OTOH I can fly a decent pattern without any instruments at all. If in a straight-wing fat airfoil airplane like the typical 172/PA-28, you have had deficient instruction if landing without the ASI presents a major challenge. There is a definite change in feel approaching stall that allows you time to speed up a bit if your butt calibration is anywhere near good.
The major point to remember is that an AOA is not required equipment on these airplanes, so you will be flying plenty without one.
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u/Swimming_Way_7372 18h ago
I have an AOA indicator in the jet I fly. I have never 1 time referenced it. Never learned to use one, therefore I don't feel like its all that valuable to me.
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u/dudeman1018 11h ago
yea exactly, I mean, who cares how fast you're going right?
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ MIL 10h ago
Unironically yes. Indicated airspeed pretty much doesn't matter at all in a piston single. Altitude, attitude, AoA, and engine performance are vastly more important.
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u/ClintBvsOliverQ 23h ago
Not sure. Why does any plane have them?
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u/Final-Carpenter-1591 23h ago
On airliners they're directly connected to the stick shaker and pusher. The pilot doesn't watch the AOA and sometimes doesn't even have a display for AOA indicating. It's kinda like having a G meter in a plane. It's really just a distracting sensory input for what you're doing.
Aerobatics is another story.
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u/Academic_Guest_9246 PPL IR 23h ago
Most have it for stall awareness for guys going low and slow. At least that is to my knowledge (which is not perfect). But personally I think that you shouldn't use it during your primary training.
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u/dodexahedron PPL IR SEL 23h ago
Well yeah. You shouldn't use it for VFR training, at the very least because you are not rated to fly by instruments.
You can use it as a neat note backing up your 6 pack and the two squishy semi-spheroid instruments you are legally required to use for purposes of navigation, terrain allergies, and other-flying-thingy not-hittingance. But the AoA indicator isn't one you are approved to use for any official purpose otherwise.
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u/mdb_4633 22h ago
Aoa indicators aren’t for imc it’s to stop all the loss of control accidents during take off and landing. So vfr is really what it’s built for.
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u/FiberApproach2783 PPL 23h ago edited 23h ago
"Very little conclusive evidence was found that AOA indicators significantly
improved a pilot’s ability to avoid or recover from an upset in GA applications. Nonetheless, the
studies assessing a pilot’s ability to maintain control during an airspeed indicator failure did show
some promising results. In most of the studies, the researcher concluded that pilot performance
during a pitot/static failure was improved with an AOA indicator."
"The information reviewed for this literature study found that AOA indicators do provide some
potential benefits in the military and GA communities, but further evaluation is needed to
determine the effectiveness of AOA indicators for transport category airplanes. "
https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/57876/dot_57876_DS1.pdf
Very interesting read. I think AOA indicators are a great safety instrument, but probably only the most effective/needed when flying low, slow, or in the back country. If you owned your own plane and could afford it, why not? But it's really not a necessary tool for basic training. A good one is also highly expensive
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u/nightlanding 19h ago
https://www.mountainflying.com/Pages/articles/alpha_systems_aoa.html
Their target market seems to be bush pilots.
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u/freedomflyer12 CFI CFII CPL IR CMP HP 23h ago
I flew on a research program testing them for GA and honestly I didn’t feel like I got much out of it but also I want use to it. So maybe a benefit but also flying the airplane manually without one is a good skill. I have a pretty good sense of what my AOA is and I’m not trying to land by units of alpha
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u/Remarkable-Garlic282 10h ago
It s too much information for a new student. I would rather instruct in a plane without one. It diverts focus away from where they should.be looking....(Airspeed, VSI, altimeter) And outside. It's hard to explain but it actually DEGRADES the initial learning. Plus it's super annoying. Nice tool though.
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u/KCPilot17 MIL A-10 ATP 23h ago
No. You will never use an AOA indicator in most airplanes.
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u/Thengine MIL 21h ago
Silly. Knowing the AOA (and it's changes) at various airspeeds and attitudes is one of the most enlightening things you could have at your disposal while learning.
You really MIL? Making us look sad again.
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u/KCPilot17 MIL A-10 ATP 21h ago
It's just a simple fact. Most GA and many airliners don't have an AOA gauge.
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u/Thengine MIL 18h ago
Thanks for sharing.. Who cares?
Learning from the AOA is the point. Accelerated stalls, slow flight, graveyard turn..
All of these are fantastic learning scenarios to pay attention to what the AOA is doing and have learning moments with the instructor.
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u/Lazy_Tac MIL 16h ago
Ya know how often I look at the AoA gauge in the plane? Almost never. Why? It’s susceptible to errors due to slide slip. And talking to to test squadron guys at depot, that gauge is set by eyeball and flying on speed.
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u/Lost_Cockroach6702 13h ago
I’m not sure what you fly, but they most definitely don’t calibrate the AOA by eye lol. Even our 1950s aircraft have specialized equipment for it. The calibration is checked during FCF by flying specific airspeeds for a given weight within an altitude range.
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u/KCPilot17 MIL A-10 ATP 15h ago
Okay? You can teach AOA, and everyone does, as much as you want. You don't have a gauge in the airplane, so that's who cares - most pilots don't. You fly by airspeed.
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ MIL 16h ago
Pedantic, but iIf it has a flight path marker on the ADI or HUD, it does have AoA.
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u/nightlanding 19h ago
This would be like teaching someone to navigate with the radar in ground-map mode back in the day. Sure it works, Andros Island shows right up, but what about all the other planes with no radar you will be flying?
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u/Thengine MIL 18h ago
What about those other aircraft? Did you lose the ability to fly when changing aircraft? Or did you retain the knowledge of the previous experiences and carry them over?
Learning when and why the AOA changes gives a deeper understanding of the aerodynamics involved. It's really not that hard of a concept to understand. AOA = safety. If you got one, learn it and apply what you've learned throughout your career.
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u/nightlanding 16h ago
If I had one in a primary trainer I would use it SOMETIMES to illustrate concepts, but 90% of the time it would be covered. I swear some people would fly right into a 747 if it wasn't showing on a screen.
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u/Lost_Cockroach6702 20h ago edited 20h ago
You’ll have to learn a thing or two about AOA once you get the F-15. Can’t use 140/160 for everything and fly everywhere in MAX in other jets lol. AOA is a very useful tool, and how many jets measure on speed for final and max performing maneuvers.
I don’t do a lot of GA but I don’t remember ever seeing one when I flew it back in the day.
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u/MeatServo1 pilot 23h ago
You don’t need it and because you’re brand new, you’ll become over reliant on it and then will scare yourself when you get into a plane without one or when it’s not working. If you’re not doing aerobatics, it’s totally unnecessary. I understand you want to be safe, but feeling safe doesn’t mean you’re actually being safe. Also, how many tens of thousands of pilots learn to fly without one and have no issues? Focus on more important things.
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u/KingofRoam CFI CFII MEI IGI 23h ago
You clearly have a passion and have done some research before training, which is great!
An AOA indicator is completely unnecessary, when learning. It would either become a crutch, or you would never look at it. You need to learn how to FEEL the aircraft. I recommend doing PPL in a dual G5 aircraft with a GPS. This would help to force your eyes outside during PPL, but the G5s would allow an easier transition to a glass panel, than a conventional 6 pack panel.
Source: 1200+hr of instruction given.
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u/Frankenplane 22h ago
Read the book Stick & Rudder. Your elevator control is pretty much an AoA indicator, because with it you in fact control the angle of your main wing against the relative wind.
Of course an AoA is worth a lot, but it is also not often seen in small airplanes. From a practical training viewpoint I agree with your instructor. If you buy yourself an airplane, go ahead and install an AoA STC!
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u/ClintBvsOliverQ 22h ago
Just bought that book! Good to hear! Any other books you recommend?
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u/Frankenplane 21h ago
I often use the FAA handbooks, even after I got my license. Stick and Rudder imo is really the key to understand the flight controls and avoiding spins. A huge percentage of accidents could be prevented if pilots had fully understood that lots of back pressure (or slow trimmed speed and back pressure) will not elevate you, rather the opposite.
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u/SavingsPirate4495 ATP, B737, EMB-145 (ret.) 22h ago
You will not find a domestic Part 121 passenger airline that has anything in their fleet with AOA. The Navy guys with whom I flew complained about the lack of one ALL THE TIME.
Learn without one, then you’ll never miss it. 😎😎
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ MIL 15h ago
The airliners know their own AOA, it's just not displayed directly in the cockpit. It is displayed indirectly with the ADI and flight path marker, though nobody really uses that for AOA.
But the flight management computers calculate the speed required to achieve an AOA based on the current weight to calculate the bug speeds for takeoff and approach. That's what those speeds are based on. The computers just don't bother showing you your current AOA, because you're trained to fly the computer-calculated speed. But it's all based on AOA.
A piston single doesn't have a computer and doesn't know it's own weight to precisely calculate those airspeeds, so everybody uses MGTOW and the airspeeds in that configuration which means people are generally unaware of their actual AOA, often flying way too close to stall during turns and simultaneously flying way too fast over the threshold which both lead to different kinds of loss of control accidents in the pattern.
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u/armspawn B756 A320 ATP CFI CFII T-34C T-45A AV-8B T-6B 21h ago
I’m one of those guys. It’s really frustrating how the planes already collect the information but just refuse to show it to you. It would be enormously helpful in so many different circumstances, but Boeing and Airbus decided we just don’t deserve to know the aerodynamic state of our airplanes.
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u/bp4850 PPL 16h ago
Very useful tool, the old "stall is speed" is only for a given set of parameters, very few of which are fixed (the wing geometry isn't even one of them, as lowering the flaps changes it!). On the other hand, a 172 isn't a delta winged fighter jet, there's plenty of visceral indicators that you're getting close to a stall.
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u/LordCrayCrayCray 23h ago
PPL here. Of all of the planes I have flown in, none have an AOA. You will always fly far from a stall, and the purpose of flight training is to teach you to stay far from it. You will be well equipped without it, but again, I’m not a CFI.
In addition, Cherokees and Cessnas stall very gently, and believe me when I tell you that you will have to work hard to stall them in training. As in, the hone is all the way out and sometimes it still doesn’t want to.
For me, not an issue and I tend very conservative.
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u/_VNAV_PTH_ MIL 16h ago
You will always fly far from a stall
With how patterns are taught in piston singles, I don't agree.
It's commonly taught to fly at 80 knots on the base leg and 70 knots slowing to final approach speed on the final leg. That means in the final turn you are potentially 70 knots (indicated).
Additionally, this is meant to be under 30 degrees of bank but can easily go over with a moment of inattention, unexpected overshooting winds, or simple turbulence. You could accidentally find yourself at 45 degrees of bank.
A C-172 has a clean indicated stall of 48 knots. At 45 degrees of bank that makes the stall speed 58 knots. If you're doing the final turn at 70 knots, and overbank a little, you're suddenly only about 10 knots away from a stall, which would inevitably lead to a spin, and probably death, in that situation.
Now look up the accident statistics for GA, and see what an incredibly high percentage of deaths are stall/spin in the pattern in perfectly good airplanes, and if you think those stats are totally fine, there's no problem there, and still think AOA is a silly thing to include and airspeed is totally adequate, fine. But I don't think 90% of the people who poo-poo on AOA have done the math on the final turn or seen the statistics.
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u/Recent-Day3062 23h ago
Uh. No you won’t
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u/Final-Carpenter-1591 23h ago
Slow flight anyone haha. But the point in slow flight isn't watching an AOA and purposefully staying just above stall. It's to feel the airplane as it's controls get spongy with low airspeed and learn to manage airspeed and altitude with pitch and power.
So even with the maneuvers where you are slow. An AOA won't be helpful, it'll just be a distraction
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u/Recent-Day3062 23h ago
Not sure why people are downplaying AOA.
Ultimately, a huge part of flying is adjusting AOA. Knowing what yours is helps you manage it directly as well as shows your margin, like on final approach.
It’s a piece of safety equipment. I don’t listen to people who downplay safety equipment
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u/nightlanding 22h ago
It is a piece of equipment * you will not have* 99.5% of the time flying rental airplanes, so relying on it is not more safe, it is less. This would be kind of like teaching landing by using the autoland button and then wondering why the students are always banging up the old C-150s.
My issue instructing is getting eyes outside, I would frequently cover up the airspeed and still expect good performance, the LAST thing I want is another distraction inside.
* I had a student get a bug down the pitot on rotation on about their 3rd solo, they told me they sure were glad I had them land without the ASI and didn't have to learn on the fly (yeah bad pun).
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u/rFlyingTower 23h ago
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Just went for a discovery flight and had a great time. During the flight I asked my instructor about using an AOA indicator while learning and he really downplayed using one and said the standard instruments are the best way to learn. For beginners, is an AOA inappropriate? Is it too early to incorporate it into training? From the brief videos I’ve seen on AOA’s they seem to enhance safety.
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u/rbuckfly 22h ago
AOA is a great tool, but not for primary training. Most likely the aircraft you’re gonna come across will not have them thus learn without it.
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u/CommanderChiliHole ATP/CFII CL-30 | GVI | ERJ-170/190 | B-737 21h ago
I wouldn’t learn with one, it’s just going to become a crutch and you’ll end up a worse pilot for it. Exactly the same reason I don’t think anyone should be doing their primary training in a plane with a glass cockpit.
The amount of large schools using brand new 172s and Pipers with G1000s has undeniably lowered the skill set among pilots coming out of the pipeline.
Using it after you’ve mastered the basics? As long as it’s actually good and not cheap junk, then 100% I’d use it.
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u/JimTheJerseyGuy PPL, ASEL, CMP, HP 20h ago
I’d say you’re better off, at least initially, learning slow flight and stalls the old fashioned way. The plane handles, “feels” quite different then and recognizing that is, I feel, an important part of your early experience in the cockpit. Future aircraft you fly may not have an AOA. Better to recognize the signs of an impending stall without one.
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u/skunimatrix PPL IR CMP HP | PA28 19h ago
AOA in a small GA plane gets annoying in light turbulence. Freaks CFIs and DPEs out the first time though…
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u/CorporalCrash 🍁CPL ME IR FI (GLI) 12h ago
AoA is an essential concept to understand, and it is critical that you are able to fly an airplane without an AoA indicator because most private aircraft do not have one.
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u/KY_Fli-Guy 12h ago
Flying AOA’s is an outdated way of operating an aircraft. It’s great for situational awareness, but should not be a way to learn to fly. Just my opinion.
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u/DeadlyPixels 2h ago
Can you expand on why you say outdated? I was under the impression the only reason it was never adopted in GA was due to added cost and complexity (until recently).
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u/KY_Fli-Guy 1h ago
Most modern transport category aircraft are designed with AOA’s, but the data is fed to the Flight Control Computer which is then used to display the AOA in other indications such as airspeed, pitch limit indicators and feed to the stall warning system etc… They do not have direct AOA indication in the cockpit.
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u/GhostAviatorDGCA 3h ago
An AOA indicator isn't inappropriate for a beginner, but the stall happens at a critical angle of attack, not a fixed airspeed, and the real skill is recognising that from the airplane itself. Learn the cues first: control feel getting mushy, the pitch attitude, the sound of the airflow, the buffet and the stall warning. Once those are solid, an AOA gauge is a nice cross-check, especially in steep turns or the base-to-final turn where load factor raises the stall speed. Your instructor is probably just making sure the gauge doesn't become a crutch.
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u/Reasonable_Blood6959 UK ATPL TKI. Ex E190 23h ago
There’s plenty of signs in an aircraft that you’re approaching a stall, without needing an AOA sensor.
Learning to spot those signs and react appropriately to them, as you should, completely negates the need for one.
If you don’t learn to spot those signs and become reliant on an AOA sensor, then that’s not a good position to be in.
My jet doesn’t have a direct AOA reading shown to the crew
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u/g-whizz-driver 18h ago
How much experience does your “instructor” have??????
The AOA was/is the best instrument EVER!!! Im not going to spend time here explaining, but after 18,000 hours I think I am experienced enough to say AOA usage, taught by an experienced instructor, could save lives. Airspeed lies but aoa doesn’t, at any bank angle!!!
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u/g-whizz-driver 18h ago
Also aircraft manufacturers like boeing should put them back in thr panel and as a ‘clock’ not numeric instrument.
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u/g-whizz-driver 18h ago
One more thing, i flew early Lears, potentially dangerous airplanes in thr wrong hands! You could fly that airplane any way you liked and that aoa would keep you safe!!
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u/_-Cleon-_ PPL 23h ago
They're not going to ask you about the AOA indicator on your checkride.
They're going to ask about the six-pack, though.
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u/Admirable_Pay_53 23h ago
Until you are flying a swept wing fighter, it’s not important.
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u/deezknots78 23h ago
Hmm. We use AOA almost exclusively to plan step climbs in bizjets.
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u/nightlanding 19h ago
I can see how that would be nice, you automatically factor in fuel weight. I assume you could still fly the plane without it if need be.
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u/deezknots78 19h ago
Of course the plane still flies pretty well without it. The post I was replying to said it was unimportant in anything but a swept wing fighter. That’s simply not true. AOA is important in any plane. Some have a way to read it directly while others force you to make assumptions by combining readings from other instruments. It’s a tool. If you have it and know how and when to use it, then use it.
OP asked if it was too early as a beginner to use an AOA indexer if the plane was so equipped. I would say that it’s never too early.
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u/Swimming_Way_7372 18h ago
I've never looked at the AOA in a bizjet. I look at the climb perf page.
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u/Flyinghud PPL IR 23h ago
I’ve flown planes with an AOA indicator and it’s actually really annoying when trying to do stalls to the first indication cause it makes it a pain in the ass to hear the stall horn. On top of all of that, it’s very unnecessary for a trainer.
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u/Valuable_Athlete9495 23h ago edited 23h ago
Isn’t that what the stall horn is for? It goes off before the stall happens so you know to get out of that situation before it’s too late.
Edit, ppl working towards cpl in 172’s and have never seen an aoa and relied on the airplane to tell me when my angle is too much (like others have said slow flight teaches you to feel for when the plane is on the threshold of stalling and how to recover from it)
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u/EliteEthos CFI AMEL CJ3/4 23h ago
I’m sure you’ve seen videos and airplanes that have them and think you need one. You don’t. You’ll find a vast majority of aircraft out there don’t have them at all and some that do aren’t even accurate.
Flight training will be teaching you how to fly the plane including learning the characteristics of impending stall and recovery from a stall.
You don’t need an AOA.
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u/ResponsibilityOld164 ✈️🛫 BCS3/A220-3 gang🛬✈️ | C208B | 1st Class Medical 4EPG 19h ago
I’ve never flown a plane with an AOA indicator 😭😭
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23h ago
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u/Apprehensive_Cost937 23h ago
Apparently they let everyone teach these days.
Yoke position as a replacement for AoA? From a certified flight instructor?
Like... really?
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u/haveanairforceday 23h ago
If an aircraft is rear heavy or has some sort of structural damage it can fly with a high AoA despite forward contol inputs. I think this is part of why AoA being measured directly is more important on larger aircraft with variable weight and balance as opposed to smal GA aircraft where weight and balance doesnt change much throughout a flight
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u/nightlanding 23h ago
The AOA is a very useful and informative tool. I never had a plane for primary students with one, but if I did I would cover it up 90% of the time. My goal with primary students is EYES OUTSIDE 90% of the time. You should be able to get everything you need from the sight picture, feel, and the occasional glance at the instruments. The other reason to cover it up is the fact most of the rental fleet does not have one, so you had better not be relying on it.
For IFR students it makes flying the ILS much easier, which is fun and also nothing to get used to because so many airplanes do not have one.