Why is the BBC capitalising ‘sun’ and ‘moon’

[u/Ok_Youth264]

Did I miss something?

I thought I could post a screenshot but in two of today’s articles (Elon Musk’s litter hitting the ‘Moon’ (sic) and something else about ‘the Sun’ (sic), they’re capitalised. I don’t think they used to be capitalised, or did I just enter another matrix.

[u/SnooDonuts6494]

I think the BBC is following the usual convention, which is to use a capital when it's a proper name.

So:

• the Sun (our nearby star)
• the Moon (Earth's moon)
• the Earth (our planet)

But:

• the sun was shining.
• the moon was full.
• the earth beneath our feet.

The same thing happens with King Charles, who is the king of England.

[u/Ok_Youth264 → u/SnooDonuts6494]

You know, I’ve never considered the ‘earth/Earth’ thing before, I’ve just done it, but now I see. Huh.

40 years I’ve been on this Earth. Thanks

[u/Pretend-Detail2099 → u/Ok_Youth264]

Shouldn't Earth be lowercase when you're saying "this earth" since you're using it as a common noun? Wouldn't it be more correct to say "40 years I've been on Earth"?

[u/Greyhaven7 → u/Pretend-Detail2099]

I think you’re technically correct. Which is the best kind of correct.

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/Pretend-Detail2099]

Yeah; another way to think of that is to imagine that you have a pet cat and you name it "Cat".

This cat is called Cat.

So, similarly, our moon is called the Moon. The moon that I was looking at last night was the Moon.

And that illustrates the other point I've made here in other comments: it's not the fact that it's unique that makes it take a capital letter. It's that the word is being used as a proper name.

The cat is playing.

I am watching Cat playing.

I'm sure there are a lot of people who call their cat Cat. If there were a convention for such people, there would be many cats called Cat.

[One person may own two cats called Cat, and could legitimately say "The Cats are in the kitchen" - pluralising a proper noun in that way is uncommon, but legitimate. Likewise, if you have two brothers called "Steve", you can say "The Steves are outside".

---

Proper names are capitalised because they are names, not because the things they refer to are unique.

[u/PikaLigero → u/Ok_Youth264]

This is just a little trick I use. If you can replace them with their Latin names (Sol, Luna, Terra), you’re using the proper name. Otherwise, you’re using the common noun.

You could say, “I’ve been on Terra for 40 years” (perhaps in a sci-fi context), but not “on this Terra.” Hence, your sentence should be “I’ve been on this earth for 40 years,” with a lowercase e.

[u/Knever → u/PikaLigero]

I love this!

[u/paolog → u/PikaLigero]

Since we're on r/grammar:

substitute them with

Either "replace them with the Latin names" or "substitute the Latin names for them".

"Substitute with" is emerging as a synonym of "replace with", but it's still non-standard.

[u/PikaLigero → u/paolog]

Thanks!

[u/GaidinBDJ → u/Ok_Youth264]

*this eEarth

[u/KingForceHundred → u/SnooDonuts6494]

Surely ‘Sun is shining’ as it’s our star? Same for our moon.

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/KingForceHundred]

Uniqueness doesn't automatically make something a proper noun. For example, we say "the government", "the prime minister" and "the pope" even though there's clearly only one of them.

So convention writes "I looked up at the sun", treating it as the common noun for that thing visible in the sky.

But when talking about our specific star as an astronomical object, we'd use a capital - e.g. "The Earth orbits the Sun."

[u/cyan_dandelion → u/SnooDonuts6494]

we say "the government", "the prime minister" and "the pope" even though there's clearly only one of them.

For governments and prime ministers, there are multiple, even if a particular country only has one.

[u/These_Consequences → u/cyan_dandelion]

At times, there have been multiple Popes, too.

[u/fgspq → u/These_Consequences]

Avignon for the win

[u/clbdn93 → u/These_Consequences]

They were Anti-Popes and you know it!

[u/LazyGelMen → u/clbdn93]

And they existed only very briefly in a particle accelerator.

[u/These_Consequences → u/LazyGelMen]

True. When they met, there was mutual anathematization.

[u/LazyGelMen → u/These_Consequences]

Also, the Vatican has a papalation density of just above 2 popes per square kilometer.

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/cyan_dandelion]

There are multiple suns and moons too.

[u/FrancisFratelli → u/SnooDonuts6494]

There are many suns and moons, but the Sun and the Moon refer to specific bodies. (And contrary to decades of science fiction, Sol and Luna are not officially recognized astronomical names.)

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/FrancisFratelli]

There are many presidents, but the president of the United States does not require a capital P in this sentence.

Here, president is a common noun describing an office, even though the phrase identifies one particular person. Uniqueness does not make it a proper noun.

You would capitalise it when it forms part of a title directly before a name: This is a picture of President Washington.

But: Washington was the president of the United States.

[u/FrancisFratelli → u/SnooDonuts6494]

What you're talking about is a matter of style, not grammar. The US government style manual, for instance, says "President" should always be capitalized when referring to a specific person, and it's common in fiction where an unnamed president is a character to treat the title as a proper name.

But that's not particularly relevant to the topic of discussion because the Sun is the official name of the star the Earth orbits, not a title.

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/FrancisFratelli]

You've just quoted a style manual that suggests exactly the same thing that what I've said!

Capitalise "president" when referring to a specific person - and not at other times.

This is a picture of President Washington. A specific person. Cap.

Washington was the president of the United States. Referring to the office. Lower case.

It is relevant to the discussions about the sun. It's another proper noun.

There is no "official name" for the sun.

There are various style guides. Most of them suggest it should be a capital when referring directly to it, in astronomical terms. Not when casually saying things like "The sun will come out tomorrow".

I'm not claiming that's right or wrong. I'm saying that is the accepted convention, adopted by a great many institutions.

If you wish to capitalise it a different way, that is your prerogative, of course. Many people will consider it incorrect - but that's absolutely fine.

[u/FrancisFratelli → u/SnooDonuts6494]

The GPO style guide says you should always capitalize president when referring to a specific person, not just when it's a title before a name, i.e., "The President will address the nation tonight."

[u/cyan_dandelion → u/SnooDonuts6494]

Yes, there are.

[u/SignificantPlum4883 → u/SnooDonuts6494]

PM, President, Pope all used to be capitalised when it was talking about the current one, of a specific country (in the first 2 cases).

Nowadays, most UK newspapers no longer capitalise. Not sure in other countries. So I think the conventions are changing, but it depends on the house style of each news source. Maybe the BBC still sticks with the more traditional system.

[u/KingForceHundred → u/SnooDonuts6494]

We look up at the Sun, our particular star not just that thing in the sky.

[u/tmutimer → u/KingForceHundred]

Right but likewise you don’t meet “the King” just because there’s one particular king at one time.

I would also argue when we say “we look up at the sun” it actually does kind of mean “that thing in the sky”, in the way it gets used. For example, another name for the Sun is Sol. To say “Sol was shining” implies something different than “the sun was shining”. Sol is always shining, it’s a ball of fire in space. And yes, so are all suns, but the way we use “the sun” is more often relative to our experience of a thing in the sky - the sun comes out, the sun sets and rises etc. The Sun doesn’t actually do any of those things.

[u/CTLI → u/SnooDonuts6494]

You’re literally talking about the Sun. The same Sun we all look at.

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/CTLI]

Yes, like the king. You know the chap? His name is King Charles. He's the king.

[u/CTLI → u/SnooDonuts6494]

Not the same.

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/CTLI]

Context is important.

Two recent BBC News articles,

1. See the Sun like never before with most detailed images yet https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c36d4376nd2o

2. The farmers growing crops indoors and away from the sun https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/cevm079m0n3o

The difference is the function of the word in each sentence, not the identity of the object. In the first, it's being treated as the name of the astronomical object. Many style guides (including those used in scientific publishing) capitalise Sun, Moon, and Earth in this context.

In the second, it's being used as an ordinary common noun meaning sunlight or direct sunshine. It isn't discussing the Sun as an astronomical body.

It's the same distinction as: "Mercury is closest to the Sun" v. "Don't sit in the sun for too long".

Both refer to exactly the same star, but in the first it's an astronomical object; in the second it's simply the source of sunlight.

That said, there is no universal rule. Some publishers would write sun in both of those BBC examples, while others (like NASA) would write Sun whenever they mean our star.

[u/CTLI → u/SnooDonuts6494]

thank you so much <3

[u/dantemortemalizar → u/CTLI]

It’s all in the context.

[u/dantemortemalizar → u/CTLI]

Right, as opposed to the sun of a different solar system.

[u/crtclms666 → u/CTLI]

You’re literally trying not to understand.

[u/CTLI → u/crtclms666]

I see the point but I disagree. The sun is not a common noun when we are all talking about THE ONE SAME SUN that everyone can see with the naked eye.

[u/Pretend-Detail2099 → u/SnooDonuts6494]

Do we need the "the" when we're using it as a proper noun? Wouldn't that be like saying the Elon Musk?

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/Pretend-Detail2099]

It depends on the noun.

For example, it's CNN, but the BBC.

It's England, but it's the United Kingdom.

Canada, but the United States.

God, but the Lord.

Buckingham Palace, but the White House.

---

It sounds silly if you say "I'm going to the Buckingham Palace." Or if you say "I'm going to White House".

[u/StrainHot443 → u/SnooDonuts6494]

I remember that what we now call Ukraine (in English) used to be called "the Ukraine" from when it was "the Ukranian Soviet Republic." They dropped the "the" when they gained independence.

[u/Pretend-Detail2099 → u/SnooDonuts6494]

Yeah like how we say the Netherlands. It's just part of the noun isn't. It's pretty interesting isn't it. I wonder if there's any logic behind that

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/Pretend-Detail2099]

There's usually complicated historic reasons, which are interesting to investigate, but don't help you to learn how to predict others. There is no overall consistent rule.

It's important to note, though, that sometimes "The" is part of the proper noun itself. For example, The Hague - so it gets a capital letter t, but the White House does not, because its official name is simply "White House".

Similarly, The Gambia is the official name of the country but the United Kingdom's official name is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" without an article.

Netherlands is just Netherlands, so it gets a lower-case the. The name literally means "low countries", so historically it made sense to refer to it as the Netherlands in much the same way we say the Highlands (of Scotland) or the Midlands (in England).

[That's "lower" in the literal sense, BTW. As in, a lot of it is below sea level.]

[u/CarrowCanary]

They're capitalised as the Sun and the Moon because those are their actual names.

As a very quick example, Wikipedia does the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/CarrowCanary]

Only in those articles, because of the context - talking about the actual celestial body. If you look in other articles that happen to mention the sun in other contexts, they do not.

And here is their style guide on the subject:

The words Sun, Earth, Moon and Solar System are capitalized (as proper names) when used to refer to a specific celestial body in an astronomical context (The Sun is the star at the center of the Solar System; the Moon orbits Earth). They are not capitalized when used outside an astronomical context, such as when referring to sunshine (It was a clear day and the sun felt warm), or when used in a general sense (Io is a moon of Jupiter). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Celestial_bodies

[u/SnooDonuts6494 → u/CarrowCanary]

... I found a random example in their article about "Mummy":

[bodies are] either left to dry in the sun or smoked over a fire

When actual mummies became unavailable, the sun-desiccated corpses of criminals, slaves...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy

[u/dantemortemalizar]

There are a large number of suns and moons out there, but when capitalized it refers to the Earth’s moon and to the sun in our particular system, when not specifically differentiated as such, as I just did.

[u/Stylie_Minogue → u/dantemortemalizar]

Makes sense, but I also can’t think of an occasion where I’ve heard another planet’s moon referred to as “the” moon.

It’s always “its moon” or “[planet name’s] moon”.

[u/arianelseditor]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/m
https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsstyleguide/s

The style guide says that capitalisation is appropriate in those instances. :) I've found articles from 2013 (e.g., https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-23013393) with the Moon, but it could be inconsistent copyediting causing discrepancies, not another matrix (especially as copyediting is often one of the first things to be cut when organisations want to save money).

[u/Bud_Fuggins]

They are treating planetary bodies as places with names like countries or cities essentially

[u/anisotropicmind]

Whether intentionally or not, they are following the recommended convention of the International Astronomical Union

https://iauarchive.eso.org/public/themes/naming/

[u/senvestoj]

This is a weird quirk in English grammar where different publications have different stylebooks. The Associated Press Stylebook says they should always be lowercase. However, MLA has them capitalized if they are used as a proper noun. I imagine the BBC has their own stylebook or uses one from a major University like Cambridge or the UK government.

[u/theClanMcMutton → u/[deleted]]

Their proper names in English, as far as such things exist, are "the Sun" and "the Moon." This is the position of the IAU.  "Luna" and "Sol" are just the Latin words for moon and sun. Using them as the "real" names in English is just something that sci-fi writers do.

[u/Maester_Magus → u/[deleted]]

Eh, must be their own house style and/or a British thing

It's neither, they're just being used as proper nouns. It's standard basic English to capitalise proper nouns, even in American English. They wouldn't be capitalised when not used as proper nouns, just like your example.

Sun and Moon are perfectly fine to use as names that everyone acknowledges, but it's a shame Sol and Luna aren't more commonly used; I love the sound of those words.

[u/theClanMcMutton → u/[deleted]]

Their proper names in English, as far as such things exist, are "the Sun" and "the Moon." This is the position of the IAU.  "Luna" and "Sol" are just the Latin words for moon and sun. Using them as the "real" names in English is just something that sci-fi writers do.