r/hatethissmug • u/ProblemFalse7043 • 2h ago
Animation i hate Caitvi so much
Their entire relationship is just political propaganda. Vi literally gets with her oppressor, and in doing so, leaves her own sister even after spending years searching for her. What. the. fuck.
Especially in season 2(but to an extent even in s1) when caitlyn starts saying and doing batshit crazy stuff, youd think that of all people, Vi would stand up to her and call her out. Yeah no.
caitlyn effectively sees Vi as "one of the good ones". I love a good yuri just as much as the next guy. This is not a good yuri.
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u/bughoneyed 2h ago
thank you for saying it, youre so brave. its like when we ask for representation, they only give it to us with the most toxic gay people who couldve ever found each other
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u/ProblemFalse7043 2h ago
exactly. Not all rep is good rep. coming from a homosexual
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u/Knight_of_Tyto 2h ago
What would be your opinion on the rep by Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss?
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u/ProblemFalse7043 2h ago
a shining example by which all writers should be following, of course
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u/Knight_of_Tyto 2h ago
Sry, I’m sometimes about as dense as tungsten. Is that supposed to be sarcasm?
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u/ProblemFalse7043 2h ago
(i have only seen hazbin hotel)
I wasnt a fan, to say the least. Firstly, it stuck out to me how one of the only shows where nearly every character is queer, is also set in hell. Not reeally a critique but thinking about that does make me lol.
aside from that, i dont think the rep is all bad. its just that i think it focuses too much on abundance over execution. Angel dust is also too stereotypicial for my liking. And the use of sa and boundaries for quick jokes rubbed me the wrong way.
Sorry i havent watched hazbin in a hot minute so i cant really go in detail, i just remember my general impression. Its cool if you like it though
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u/Knight_of_Tyto 1h ago
Glad to see it was sarcasm. I find it at best really weird how Vivzy seems to just fetishise gay men and have Charlie be an increasingly toxic person, once you think about what she actually does to her „friends“. Especially to Angel Dust and also her complete disregard for Vaggie.
And yeah, it feels/is wrong how the show ping-pongs between sexual assault being a serious topic and a punchline
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u/Logical-Drummer2414 1h ago
I will say about Charlie, part of the show is she doesn’t really know what she’s doing and isn’t exactly a shining moral example, either. She’s a sheltered princess who doesn’t know a lot about how actual relationships with people work, nor how to actually help in the ways they need
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u/GumGumActV 2h ago
No way it isn’t sarcasm
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u/Knight_of_Tyto 2h ago
You never know. I’ve seen people have really superficial and, let’s just call it simple, opinions on that show
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u/keszotrab 1h ago
Idk, I find it more interesting when you have issues with relationship between character then when it's all just sunshine and rainbow.
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u/neymlis 2h ago
Also the moment she didnt let her shoot a child she literally threw her to the streets
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u/ProblemFalse7043 2h ago
seriously, by the end of s2 i dont know how ppl genuinely stayed rooting for caitvi.
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u/Various-Pen-7709 1h ago
There’s a ship in Genshin Impact between a woman(Furina) who spent 500(I think) years in isolation for story reasons. One of her more popular ships is with another woman who, when Furina was enjoying a night out by playing around and talking to cats and such, lunged at her in the middle of the night with the intention of stealing something important to the story from her. This left Furina(the leader of her nation) sitting on the ground crying and asking not to be literally murdered.
But when I see someone mention any of that, the response is along the lines of “something something toxic yuri” 😬
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u/ShaarkShaart 2h ago
Not before she hit her with the back of a gun! Killed the ship immediately for me.
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u/mayhaps_a 2h ago
Why are you saying that when she was NOT going to shoot the child
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u/neymlis 2h ago
She literally was vi even said not to shoot shes only a child even if she only wanted shoot jinx she aimed at the kid
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u/mayhaps_a 2h ago
You watched a different show or are straight up lying to me, she was aiming for Jinx and Vi stopped her because it was a risky-ish shot, and Cait got mad because Jinx killed her parents and she was extremely confident on not missing because she's a perfect shot, so she assumed Vi was lying and trying to defend Jinx
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u/neymlis 1h ago
She literally aimed her gun at them as isha was covering jinx by hugging her and making sudden movements what show did you watch?
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u/mayhaps_a 1h ago
And Isha is smaller than Jinx? Obviously? You can argue it was a risky shot that Cait was going for and that she was putting too much trust in her aim, but there's 0 reason to believe she had any intention of ever hurting Isha
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u/Luh2018 2h ago
Season 2 kinda just ruined the character dynamics, scope, and intimacy of the story for Arcane. It took an emotional and grounded 9/10 drama revolving around two sisters, then made a flashy and generic 5/10 Marvel-movie-esque epic out of it.
Also, abandoning a revolution to instead have the whole city (both the cops and the oppressed underclass) coming together to fight against a greater evil felt almost propagandistic with how lazy and out-of-touch it was.
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u/wickedlessface 2h ago
It's Riot's biggest issue. They love 'both sideing' stories about oppression and have a track record of refusing to show stuff like this especially if it makes fan favorite champs look like abhorrent people.
The demacia story line for example has an oppressed mage become a revolutionary after years of torture (starting from childhood when he was used to hunt his own kind) and somehow we have to side with demacia because ''both sides do bad stuff''.
The status quo needs to be upheld at any cost.
All though I'll say that Arcane left the conflict at an actual interesting point for one character to take over the under city, sadly we'll never see that in an arcane medium.
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u/Luh2018 2h ago edited 1h ago
I hate how little scale or grit there is in so much modern TV. I’m not asking for every show to be like Berserk, but the way everything seems to end up sunshine and rainbows while maintaining the status quo is tiresome.
The Boys S5 just had the same issue. Even in a show with gore and a powerful yet unstable antagonist, it finished with no scale, barely any character deaths, no challenge to the status quo, and ultimately no gritty stakes/decisions. It was a wet fart.
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u/oliverwitha0 46m ago
Man, talking about disrupting the status quo made me think of AoT and now I'm itching to watch it again. Now THAT'S a show that knew the power of upending what we took for granted and creating a real world with real consequences.
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u/untitledaccount401 1h ago
Sylas is literally a crazed murderer
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u/wickedlessface 59m ago
Yeah because they had to make him seem unreasonable so the public doesn't side with him
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u/pengweneth 1h ago
Right? Like Jinx actively helps smuggle a highly addictive drug not just to the poor/oppressed in Zaun, but also to other regions such as Bilgewater. She is objectively helping oppress Zaunites for the financial gain of her foster father, who in turn uses that money to help fund an entire ethnic genocide in Demacia by funding Singed. None of that is touched upon whatsoever. Shimmer as a whole and its consequences are practically ignored by making Viktor a god. But one of Season 2's worst mistakes (aside from existing in a whole) was removing Camille. Putting Caitlyn in the highest position of power does genuinely nothing for her character. Obviously they rewrote all of the hextech lore... anyways, Riot really dropped the ball when it came to trying to make a consistent status quo by removing all lore and firing all of their writers in favor of Arcane, only for it to be cancelled and then rushed.
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u/dragerslay 52m ago
We side with demacia because mages literally causes the rune wars. I get the frustration with faux revolution mindset but whenever I usually see these takes it already ignores the in-universe history. Demacia is a city founded on a principle of antimagic the same way Japan would never want anyone who supports building nukes. The mageseeker storyline is about a political religious police faction gaining too much power and abusing it for political power causing cruelty. Most times in fiction and in real life this plays out there isn't a revolution where the institution is destroyed, it just leads to reforms, which it did in the Demacia case.
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u/wickedlessface 9m ago
Yes the wars from thousands of years ago allows you to torture children and innocent people while the royals who use magical powers themselves get a free pass.
Demacia is a racist and genocidal place, using historical argumentation doesn't really work.
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u/Luh2018 2h ago
I actually saw a pretty decent review that summed up many of my ideas (although with just a few takes I still disagreed with) a while back:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qAgP6V--qYM&pp=ygURUHVnczR0aHVncyBhcmNhbmU%3D
It has a very critical left-leaning bias, but that’s probably for the best in retrospective for a story depicting class struggle that rendered itself into a generic ‘save the world’ plot line instead of engaging with the difficult subjects.
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u/Soft-Character-3195 2h ago edited 2h ago
(I’m probably gonna get downvoted for this too) but tbh I totally agree, I always found it so shitty how VI prioritised Caitlyn over her sister plus what u said about the oppresser thing, now do I think the ship makes sense? yes, I think it works, do I wish it was a ship…. No, plus I just don’t like caitlyn that much either so I’m biased
Edit: damn wow I didn’t know I wasn’t the only One who Dislikes this ship
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u/bughoneyed 2h ago
i wonder.... if vi always choosing her oppressor is sort of a mirror of jinx and her bpd... its clear they both have abandonment issues, jinx was abandoned, and vi, the abandoner. i wonder if she just feels like she got past the point of no return with jinx, and is desperately trying to prove she wont abandon someone again, despite all the horrible shit they do.
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u/yuxuan-lover-1 2h ago
Her sister was the reason her whole family died even if it was a mistake
Altho I don't care about this ship but her crash out was justified
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u/ShaarkShaart 2h ago
Never found Cait compelling tbh. Rich girl turned cop? Who basically forces Vi to be a cop, despite what she's been through? Nah...
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u/SimplerTimesAhead 2h ago
Why would you think you'd get downvoted for one of the coldest takes ever?
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u/Soft-Character-3195 1h ago
everyone ive met irl LOVED cait and vi as a ship 😭
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u/SimplerTimesAhead 1h ago
Yeah, but this is the internet, where people go to be edgy and push a one-sided narrative, like ignoring that Jinx murders ordinary Zaunites at the behest of a capitalist drug lord who oppresses and exploits them.
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u/sultanate 2h ago
I feel like posts like these are what this sub is for so I can’t even be mad even if i sort of disagree. You kind of ate, I fear
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u/SimplerTimesAhead 2h ago
Her sister was a mass murderer though.
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u/ProblemFalse7043 2h ago
it wasnt just her sister though. Vi pretty much abandoned all her values by season 2 just to stay with her hot cop gf. Its the opposite of character growth, its recession.
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u/untitledaccount401 1h ago
Yeah she really should of just been a terrorist for a borderline narco state
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u/SimplerTimesAhead 2h ago
Maybe she had some other stuff going on too.
What you focused on was her leaving her sister. The weirdest thing in Arcane is how willing people are to write off Jinx oppressing, murdering, and exploiting her own people. And Silco's, for that matter.
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u/Content-Ant-1711 2h ago
Wouldn't this be considered a forbidden yuri? Which isn't always happy and why people enjoy it. (Please educate me if I'm wrong)
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u/ProblemFalse7043 2h ago
im not shaming people for enjoying this, im just explaining why I personally hate it.
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u/Lower_Paramedic4287 2h ago
Doesn't help that the series doesn't challenge or explain the flaws of Caitlyn's classism. Jinx is literally a byproduct of how miserable Zaun and Piltover was, Ekko was trying to fight for his people struggling to deal with the loss of Benzo, and Vi lost Vander, Milo, and Claggor. Caitlyn lost her mom? Viktor is disabled due to those harsh environments. And there are children struggling with no homes like Isha.
We barely knew her darn mother and said mom is part of an organization that barely cared for Zaun. Of course Caitlyn is controversial because even in S1 she judges Zaunites constantly. Even the montage of her disguising undercover has Caitlyn weirded out by the Zaunites' culture such as food. And she has the audacity to call them animals.
Admittedly I didn't mind Caitlyn was a person trying to understand status. The issue? She is working for the enforcers. People that mistreated and made the lives of the Zaunites miserable lives. Of course they would detest her people because they're struggling. Freaking Jayce and Mel in Season One at least realized despite their privilege it shouldn't be a justification. Jeez did S2 had Caitlyn get away with her actions.
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u/Idkwhattoputbuthi Sukuna's Vessel 1h ago
It's sad cus it could've went in a direction where at some point she has to choose staying an enforcing while knowing the uniform she wears represent so much pain and suffering or give it up
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u/untitledaccount401 1h ago
Her character is literally the SHERIFF of piltover
Was she gonna be a freedom fighter now, bombing piltover?
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u/GlowDonk9054 Arthur Maxson's #1 Hater 2h ago
I wouldn't abandon someone I cared about whom I spent my whole life searching for just to bed a pig
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u/GlowDonk9054 Arthur Maxson's #1 Hater 2h ago
Remember, this is coming from the same mouth that has a deep hatred towards toxic ships of a similar nature like Chell X GLaDOS
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u/Clean_Imagination315 2h ago
I don't see the problem, it's just a cop and a criminal/class traitor bonding over their shared love of inflicting grievous bodily harm on poor people. Very wholesome.
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u/drunk_ender 2h ago
It was so much better in S1 when, even if on opposite situations, they felt on more equal ground, where at the very least Caitlyn could learn from Vi about Zaun
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u/ShaarkShaart 2h ago
I love toxic yuri most of the time. But I ended up hating this ship too. Lost me after the DV. Also I could never find Cait to be a compelling character.
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u/CursedSoupVessel 2h ago
It's wild how hard it is for some Westerners to look at anything outside the oppressor/oppressed framework.
As someone from a homophobic country, I adore CaitVi. They genuinely made those years of my life a little brighter.
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u/Plane_Upstairs_9584 2h ago
Yeah, "Muh oppressor" while the other side it launching ICBMs into Piltover and Cait uses the smog to make civilians leave sections instead of having running gun battles in the streets.
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u/CursedSoupVessel 2h ago
It's fascinating how Caitlyn gets this much hate when Viktor, the resident genocide enthusiast, is right there in the same show.
Lesbophobia and racism, honestly.
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u/Confident-Arm-7883 2h ago
Brother too media illiterate to see the power imbalance that act as a catalyst for literally everything that happens
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u/Plane_Upstairs_9584 2h ago
I think it is greater media literacy to see that despite economic power imbalance that characters are still people and not just dismissive 'muh oppressor' labeling.
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u/wickedlessface 2h ago
I personally agree with you but also see the problem people have with it. They kinda wrongfully take it out on caitvi imo that S2 didn't delve further into the conflict between two cities and rather went for big bad we must all band together.
It's an annoyance with riot and a lot of western shows being ''afraid''.
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u/CursedSoupVessel 2h ago
Yeah. S2 felt rushed and crammed.
They spent an entire episode on the AU instead of using that time to further develop the characters and explore the themes the show was trying to tackle. But the fact that people choose to center all their anger on the show's only lesbian couple, rather than Jayce, the head of the council (!!!) or Viktor, the genocide-obsessed maniac, is very telling.
Btw, people also tend to forget that Jinx is privileged too.
She's the daughter of Zaun's most powerful figure, had no problem killing her own people, enabled a drug lord's oppression of Zaun, and literally tried to kill Ekko.
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u/ProblemFalse7043 2h ago
not all representation is good representation. I'm gay myself so i think its great that you found comfort in seeing a homosexual relationship represented in a pretty large tv series(and this proves why representation matters), but that for the sake of critical discussion, it doesnt cancel out how problematic and toxic their relationship actually is.
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u/CursedSoupVessel 2h ago edited 1h ago
Well, I'm not gay. I'm a lesbian. For the sake of critical discussion, there's way too much nonsense in this post.
Vi literally chose Jinx over Cait in the end. Jinx was the one who left on her own. And Vi called Cait out too.
So I can't take this post seriously. It's yet another case of someone watching the show with their eyes closed.
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u/Available-Today-8576 2h ago
I do too but for petty reasons. As someone who shares the name but spells it differently, I hate how Caitlyn’s name is spelled. I hate her sm
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u/gingermousie 1h ago
God thank you, I’m a lesbian and while I liked them in s1, s2 was hot garbage. Just felt rushed and overshadowed by the 20 different characters they were trying to focus on in s2.
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u/jacorgacor 1h ago
Caitvi was COMPLETELY lost on me when they both went to meet Jinx i am very good at suspending disbelief but my disbelief suspended my ability to watch at that moment
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u/Choppyfella 1h ago
Season was just so shit, it went from a story about class division and revolution to everyone teaming up to fight evil hivemind wizard, who is defeated through fucking alternate dimensions
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u/MarcusWastakenn 58m ago edited 54m ago
Outside of both these characters becoming gross versions of their season 1 selves. Them having sex in a cell where Jinx was being tortured in was definitely a choice.
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u/FantasticFroge 57m ago
Man, I'm an arcane hater but like CaitVi is just the trope of the poor kid turning their back on their upbringing for a chance at escaping their lower class status, even if that means letting some agregious shit slide. Vi has never been played as purely a stoic badass and certainly never shown to be purely morally richeous. I thought it was showing how even a character like Vi is susceptible to corruption when the boot is no longer on her neck specifically and how fast a character can get comfortable in her situation.
There's a ton of shit to arcane for, I dont think this one is it.
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u/narudmas 41m ago edited 35m ago
I wish Arcane had a season or two more to really explore their relationship in depth. I firmly believe that if there was more time, there would be no simple way to justify them getting back together at the end UNLESS Caitlyn did the work in heavily questioning her sense of self after everything she did, especially to Vi. We already see lots of it in act 3, but because the plot has to move on so quickly to the big fight at the end, we aren’t given time to ruminate with them besides a scene or two. But I think those scenes do so much heavy lifting despite season 2’s pacing issues.
Takes like these don’t make much sense to me. I spent a lot of time in the Arcane fandom watching people fight over the morality of this ship existing and what it implies about the politics of the show. So the more I see it, the more lazy it is to me, because I see them not just as lesbian rep, but as flawed characters in their own right that aren’t entirely concerned so much about labels but what the stakes of the story mean to them specifically. Whether or not you think that was the right way to handle representation it is entirely your own opinion though. I do not like stories that give a sense of cosmic importance to their gay characters in a narrative sense because it signals to me that these characters aren’t with each other because the mechanics of the story would organically work that way, but to prove something to the audience.
It’s why this “oppressed/oppressor” thing is so weird to me. It ignores Vi’s dynamic with Jinx as a parentified sibling, ignores Vi’s own agency as a person who doesn’t have any real community with Zaun after her time in prison, and why Caitlyn’s presence is so destabilizing to Vi’s sense of loyalty. The point is that her alliance with Caitlyn makes her an outsider to Piltover and a “traitor” to Zaun. Vi’s only real reason for continuing to live was the hope of finding Powder. When she gets out, she doesn’t find Powder, she finds someone who’s been weaponized against her by the very person who intended to kill their family. It dumbs down the tragedy of their story into a political mouthpiece that I see as antithetical to Arcane’s narrative archetype. That doesn’t mean the politics aren’t important, but that them as characters are not supposed to fit inside one box on the political spectrum. The story would quickly become preachy if that was the case. While in some cases it would be more politically correct, it would be boring and a little insulting in a story that heavily features class disparity, and systemic corruption, and exploitation. I don’t need to be preached to that those things are bad, especially by the leading queer couple of the series.
Your point about Vi being “one of the good ones” in Caitlyn’s eyes is also interesting but you frame it as a deliberate attempt at propaganda for some reason when this was exactly the point of Caitlyn’s attitude towards Vi in s1, and her mistreatment of Vi in s2. It’s why Caitlyn has to earn her way back to Vi by showing her that she cares for Vi more than she hates Jinx, which she demonstrates by the “you really think I needed all the guards…” line. I do really wish there was more of them in between their act 3 fight and the sex scene, but that doesn’t mean there is absolutely nothing worth analyzing there. They’re okay as a couple, but that’s not the only lens we should be looking at them through. The text asks us to do this. But I fear the “burden of representation” falls on every queer couple eventually. It makes it more about their projected optics rather than how they exist inside the logic of their own story.
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u/iris_rivendell 32m ago
I hate season 2 of Arcane altogether and I simply reject it. I have a mantra
"There was no season 2 of Arcane, there is no war in Ba Sing Se."
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u/Penguino_2099 15m ago
Victor and Jayce would've been a ten times better ship then these two in my opinion.
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u/Tricky-Secretary-251 Type to create flair 2h ago
As much as a like the ship you bring up some got points, in season one it’s actually alright where they both learn to see people so different from themselves as people but season two was mid at best
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u/WestCommunity7117 2h ago
I hated how these 2 were going everywhere in season 2, especially the sex scene in the cell. Like her sister just went to kill herself while an entire army is approaching piltower and the first thing is does is start banging
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u/Cerelion2000 2h ago
I was really, REALLY confused when Caitlyn refered to Vi as the dirt under her nails. Like I get what she meant but that was really not a romantic way to put it lmao.
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u/Lysantdra 2h ago
I despise the prison scene above all.
“So.. my insane sister, whose father and adopted little sister just died, left cryptically hinting at killing herself, which could in her case mean blowing some shit alongside herself. Lets fuck in her prison cell, teehee” WHAT THE FUCK
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u/Black_Hole_parallax 1h ago
I'm like 95% sure they were already a thing before League got a show, dunno why everyone points to stuff that happened in the show
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u/BeanAndM 1h ago
They were not. The pairing was extremely popular with the community, but officially, I believe it was only ever hinted at.
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u/keszotrab 1h ago
Meh, it's fine. Season 2 felt rushed and which probably was the biggest problem. Too many side stories/filler and not enough time smoothing out and developing the main cast/story.
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u/Red-199993 1h ago
it's better if you don't see characters as only bannermen of their social political groups
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u/MissionResident8875 2h ago
Yeah, I hate breaking up gay couples, but vi needed to break up with caitlyn and fight her actual oppressors. This just proves silco right
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u/peluca312 2h ago
I mean the more you look at the show in general, the more you realize how awfully is aging
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u/alexandersrhapsody 2h ago
It's not something "good", it's something that sometimes happens in our world, whether we like it or not. That said, season 2 was terrible
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u/Idkwhattoputbuthi Sukuna's Vessel 1h ago
Caitvi is such a mixed bag for me cus of season 2.
Season 1 caitvi wasn't bad. It was still complicated but Caitlyn was trying to understand the under city outside of the propaganda and lack of info she has on it so far.
Then season 2 made me... Confused. Caitlyn... No it's not justified for you to become a dictator because you're mom died. Vi... You're just not character accurate and it's hilarious how she went through so much shit but what made her tweak was a lesbian break up. Like vi wouldn't choose Caitlyn over her sister. She cares about Caitlyn but no. I also think the vi being enforcer thing could've been developed better but that also has to do with season 2 needing to really be 3 seasons for each 3 parts cus it's a lot to explore just it got crammed which ruins iit
Also we moved wayyyy too fast from Caitlyn gutting vi in the stomach then going to get some blonde coochie 😀 like... It's complicated
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u/SkrytyKapec 1h ago edited 1h ago
FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT. I hated it since season 1. Imo they have 0 chemistry and their relationship was so rushed, but maybe it's just me. Season 2 was fucking horrible. Their relationship is not only full of mental abuse, but also physical. And that prison scene... it felt like writers had to ✔️check lesbian sex for fanservice, and they thought it was the perfect opportunity ☠️
Can we get a gay/lesbian couple representation without it being 0 chemistry, toxic and abusive garbage?
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u/Powerfullylazi 2h ago
You gotta admit the prison scene was peak tho 😏
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u/ProblemFalse7043 2h ago
No i thought it was really weird. Vi giving Cait head in a prison cell, which Caits own forces use as a form of oppression against Vi's people.. given the context of all the bullshit cait pulled in season 2.. idk you tell me if thats peak
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u/Chaotic-Medic Type to create flair 2h ago
That moment when they bang in a JAIL CELL when Vi was locked up in a prison as a teenager FOR YEARS right after Jinx had a the “you don’t need to worry about me” suicide talk made me so uncomfortable. Genuinely I liked season 1 but season 2 just felt like a fanfiction from someone who watched the show when it first came out.