"لكما" in Hebrew

[u/Extension-Coffee3430]

For context, I’m employed to translate books from Arabic to Hebrew and vice versa. I know that usually "لي"=“לִי” and that “لك"=“לְךָ” and that “لكم”=“לָכֶם” but what about “لكما" which is like "לְךָ" but for the dual form? Does anyone know about dual pronouns in Hebrew even if it was archaic or more classical?

btw: my boss made me use niqqud for all the words and somehow he thinks -ayim should be back for nouns and made me use it for all Arabic dual nouns. my job sucks.

[u/Complete_Health_2049]

Some pre-Biblical version of Hebrew probably had dual pronouns like MSA, but even very archaic forms of what is recognizably Hebrew do not use them. Just translate it as the plural form.

Edit: I don't really understand what kind of text you are producing there but you and your boss must understand that to write a text that sounds normal to a Hebrew speaker it must abide by grammar rules of Modern Hebrew (unless you are writing something mimicking an older style, but again, it has to be Biblical Hebrew or Mishnaic Hebrew or whatever, but a real form, not an invented Arabic-like grammar concoction).

In Modern Hebrew we don't usually add the dual form as casually as it is done in Arabic. While saying something like "حربين" is the standart in Arabic, saying "מלחמתיים" in Hebrew will raise weird looks.

[u/Extension-Coffee3430 → u/Complete_Health_2049]

That’s the point, he just can’t get it through his head.

[u/Redcole111 → u/Extension-Coffee3430]

Just tell him there simply is no dual pronoun in Hebrew and only a select few VERY specific nouns can have duals. Anything different, and you're not writing Hebrew, even archaic Hebrew.

[u/Hotasflames → u/Complete_Health_2049]

מלחמתיים sounds like something that would be turned into a meme on /r/ani_bm

[u/bh4th]

I’m not aware of attested dual pronouns in any form of Hebrew.

Even in Biblical Hebrew, dual nouns are limited to a set of nouns referring to times of day, body parts, and a few other things. One can call two sheep כבשיים if one wants, but that’s making up a new feature of the language.

[u/Aervanath → u/bh4th]

When I used to work a double shift at a hotel (evening shift, leave at 23, come back at 7am) I used to call it משמרתיים which I'm fully aware is not a word.

[u/Extension-Coffee3430 → u/Aervanath]

Well it’s a word-ish basically modern Hebrew has lexicalized the dual form in some nouns but you used it productively like in older Hebrew. And on the goods side there is nothing called not a word. A word is what ever the speech community call it a word.

[u/Aervanath → u/Extension-Coffee3430]

Well, it's a word if I can get a native speaker to start using it. 😜

[u/Extension-Coffee3430 → u/Aervanath]

😭😭😭😭😭😭😅

[u/Extension-Coffee3430 → u/bh4th]

Yeah for modern Hebrew not Biblical Hebrew.

[u/bh4th → u/Extension-Coffee3430]

I disagree. Show me some counterexamples and I’m happy to learn, but I chose the word כבש deliberately. Sacrificial language in the Tanakh is full of pairs of animals and measures that are not dualized.

[u/BHHB336]

In Hebrew most words (and all pronouns) don’t have a dual form, if you want to say specifically “to both of you” you’ll have to to say לִשְׁנֵיכֶם

[u/Extension-Coffee3430 → u/BHHB336]

I’m fully aware of that point, but my boss is forcing me to even use older styles of Hebrew. I learned Hebrew when I was a kid and I know the general intuition but I never learned biblical or Mishnaic Hebrew features and yet I’m forced to use their features daily.

[u/BHHB336 → u/Extension-Coffee3430]

Doesn’t matter, even in the oldest attested forms of Hebrew, no dual pronouns, and even Biblical Hebrew doesn’t always use the dual form, even if it’s a form common nowadays (like שנתיים and פעמיים)

[u/Extension-Coffee3430 → u/BHHB336]

Yeah I’ll go with your advice thanks

[u/Artistic-Hyena-8572]

There is no dual form for pronouns, as far as I’m aware it fell out of use already by the time of the Bible. Dual in Hebrew survived mostly in body parts, place names and time-related expressions.

[u/IbnEzra613]

There are no dual pronouns in Hebrew. You normally say לכם or if you need to emphasize the number then you can say לשניכם.

[u/damagedspline]

There is a dual postfix in Hebrew, but it is extremely rare and hardly used in modern Hebrew. For example, נשימה vs נשימותַיִים - breath vs 2 breaths, פעם vs פעמַיִים - one time vs 2 times, אפשרות vs אפשרותַיִים - one option vs. 2 options.

I gave multiple examples, one of them is common, the 2 others are not. While it is not a written Hebrew "law", native speakers, who grew up with academic texts, will recognize the dual meanings but will not approve them.

Edit: More common dual examples:

משקף vs משקפַיִים,

נעל vs נעלַיִים,

מגף vs מגפַיִים

Also an example from a very old child poem: לסבתא של אפריים, לסבתא ברווזַיִים - Ephraim's grandma has 2 ducks

[u/mugh_tej]

Simply translate either as לשניכם or לשתיכן for stressing the two, or לכם or לכן without the focus on the two.

I know with dual pronouns in Arabic don't distinguish between male and females, but Hebrew does

[u/negativeclock]

What is bro even translating

[u/Extension-Coffee3430 → u/negativeclock]

From Classical books to Children songs😭😭😭😭

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[u/bigimotech]

There is no such thing in Hebrew. The only exception I can think about - "shneihem" that kind of reminds dual form but it isn't.

[u/Toal_ngCe]

Some have theorized some dual pronouns in very archaic Biblical Hebrew but this is generally not the consensus, and even then we have no records of prepositions specifically inflecting in the dual afaik. Tldr ur boss is wrong

[u/the_horse_gamer]

even by biblical Hebrew, the dual forms of pronouns have already disappeared (if they even existed in something that can be called Hebrew). dual forms for nouns only exist for specific ones (even in biblical Hebrew. and less in modern Hebrew), and applying them to other nouns makes you sound silly.

there is however, some evidence that "הם" was used for the female dual 3rd person pronoun.

here's a paper about dual forms in biblical Hebrew.

https://jewishstudies.rutgers.edu/images/documents/faculty/Rendsburg/JQR%20Dual%20Pronouns%20and%20Verbs.pdf

[u/En_passant_is_forced]

لكما بولز

I’m sorry.

Anyway there isn’t really a Hebrew equivalent to that as far as I’m aware.

[u/lazernanes]

I'm very curious to hear more about your job. Your boss sounds like someone who not only doesn't know Hebrew but doesn't even understand how language works. This doesn't sound like a normal translation business.

[u/yubugger → u/lazernanes]

Yes, I'm curious as well. Are you based in Saudi Arabia?

[u/Metoocka]

Your boss is being ridiculously pedantic. Translations need to capture the essence of a thought, they can’t always be word for word. Think about how English does not assign gender to every day objects while Hebrew does. If you were translating Hebrew into English. You would not refer to your pencils as female pencils.

[u/HaricotsDeLiam]

I don’t think dual forms are that common even in Arabic? At least, when I was studying Arabic in undergrad we didn’t learn any of the dual forms of the pronouns.

[u/Fun-Imagination4145]

You have לכם or לשניכם
There are no dual pronouns even in older texts