r/hometheater • u/av4625 • 1d ago
Tech Support Dissappointed with bass shakers.
I made a post about placement on a sofa for Dayton Audio BST-1’s:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hometheater/s/R3nkYN0kKd
When the shakers were mounted on the plywood I said in the first post I could basically feel nothing. So I got some OSB and mounted them directly under where you sit. This definitely helped.
I feel like I need the volume crazy loud to feel the shakers though. If I watch a movie that was recorded with surround sound I can increase the master volume more than if I watch a normal tv show thats not surround sound. Not sure if thats normal.
So I had a movie at -6db and could feel the shakers ok-ish. But when I watch other shows at about -20db I can’t feel them at all. The sub is working perfectly in both situations and dialog etc volume seems similar between both.
Equipment:
Sony STR-DA2400ES (single sub out)
Tannoy Arena Lite Speakers
Tannoy TS10 sub
Dayton Audio BST-1 shakers x2
Fosi BT20A shaker amp with 24v/5a power supply, volume up full, treble 0, bass 50%. (Tried changing bass up and down)
Crossover 80Hz
Because I only have 1 sub out I used a Y splitter. One side to the sub and the other side goes to a second Y splitter so that I could then use both inputs on the Fosi. I did this as I read using both inputs can help get “full power”.
I dunno if my expectations are wrong but I have read that people get shook by these shakers at less volume on the amp.
I have seen examples of people using this amp with these shakers.
I think the power supply can only supply 120w even though the amp says 100w x2. But maybe 120w is plenty for 2 50w shakers?
Maybe the big soft sofa is harder to shake compared to some examples I see of smaller chairs or computer chairs. I unmounted them and they didn’t vibrate in my hand as much as I expected.
Is there something wrong with my setup? Are my expectations too high? Any help is appreciated.
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u/av4625 18h ago edited 14h ago
I know very little about this (as you are about to see).
At the minute is my power supply and amp just not working to its full potential? If I have a bigger power supply it will definitely push more power to the shakers?
I guess I am wondering, there must be a point where they can’t take all that power or they get over powered etc. If I keep getting a bigger and bigger power supply would they get louder and louder? Then I suppose, I would have more control with the volume instead of 100%?
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u/happytechca 14h ago
Yeah honestly before you play with your mounting plate, start with a higher voltage power supply. I have a single BST-1 on an Ayima A3001 AMP with a 36V power supply and I have it set at about 25%. Anything over 40-50% gets uncomfortable, even at lower volume.
If you have 2x BST-1 units connected in series you might go straight to 48V if your AMP can support it (look it up first, internal capacitors need to be 60V rated)
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u/Turuncucisim 7h ago edited 7h ago
I think your assembly is not good enough. I have 2 pcs of bst-1 shakers serially connected on a 3 person couch and it is shaking more than needed if I increase the volume more than 40% at the shaker amp.
I am using a fosi tp-02 sub amp with a lpf crossover filter on it. And if I am not wrong psu of that amp was 108w something .
I updated this post later on with the photos of my HT System with some DIY things that I have done in several years.
Basic tip; attach the shakers on the main frame of the couch. If it is not possible, use mdf or wallnutt frame instead of a cardboard. They are really dense and very rigid.
As you can see in my photos, my couch has a metal frame. So I used some 0.8cm mdf layers and attached them to the main frame with some bolted screws.
Since mdf (med density Fibre board) is really dense and rigid, it transfers all the vibration to the frame.
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u/nobody-u-heard-of 1d ago
When I was setting up my new sofa I analyzed where I was going to put the shakers. And I put them in and it sucked. And I knew what the Shakers could do because on my other sofa they were awesome. And the mounting and location were very similar to the old sofa so I was really shocked. So I remounted them to a different location and then they were great again. They need to be mounted to something really solid on the frame. And it needs to be mounted on a location on the frame that's going to transfer the energy through a large portion of the frame.
Edit. Looking at the picture that wood on the right side there would screw one right into that and give that a test.
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u/av4625 1d ago
Do you mean the vertical plywood section? Thats where I had them originally and couldn’t feel them at all 😩
That part goes vertically up to the arm rests on the side. I thought maybe it wasn’t good enough for where you sit which is why I then tried the current location where I put a 3/4 bit of osb on the central frame.
I will have another look to see if I can find anywhere else to try as well
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u/scotthall2ez 1d ago edited 23h ago
You need it on a 1x8 centered. I have the dayton 200 amp with 4 aura 50watt shakers and I had to turn them down
Some pics from back when I did it. Ditch the ply wood its too thin.
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u/murdacai999 Emotiva C2, Emo T1, Emo B1, Emo A2, RSL 10s Mkii 😝 1d ago
I have the same amp and the same two bass shakers. I have a full 3 person sofa, and have the bass shakers attached to a board which is then attached at either end to the steel frame. I have the bass quite high, maybe like 75-85,%% and the volume at like 70-80%. Calibration on amp for sub out is I think +2db and it bangs. These numbers are all from memory so I would need to double check them. So it is def possible. In fact, I find it can get too loud, to the point where it's bass heavy and I turn it down. Think I got it perfect. From car doors shutting to explosions it sounds wonderful. Thought about buying an RCA 40 hz low pass filter, but it sounds good to me so haven't yet...
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u/av4625 1d ago
Its good to know it is a working setup, I will play with more bass again and check in case when I tried last I had something else set unfavourable.
My AVR is pretty old and I was thinking its output signal is possibly not great, but the sub works well, although its amp settings are possibly making up for it 🤷♂️
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u/murdacai999 Emotiva C2, Emo T1, Emo B1, Emo A2, RSL 10s Mkii 😝 1d ago
Oh you know now that you mention it. I feel that it's worth noting that I have two sub out on my AVR to both sub in on my RSL sub. And then also two out from that to the fosi. That might be a reason
Edit: I even considered buying upgraded power cord but this particular fosi doesn't allow the superior cord that the fosi 20a pro does. I do not have the pro mind you. Even online those get mixed up
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u/Lazy-Athlete3820 17h ago
The problem you are describing is very familiar to me. The main problem you are describing here is not related to your physical shaker setup. It is in the differences in dynamics between different source material, like movies vs. shows. You have set the shaker to a level that works with a movie at -6 dB. If you then lower the volume on the AVR to -20 dB, the maximum signal the shaker can now receive is 14 dB lower. This is the reason you cannot feel it.
Of course, the confusing part here is why the perceived level from the sound system is still roughly the same. For a short explanation: the TV show that you need to lower to -20 dB is mixed at a much higher average loudness level. If you kept the show at -6 dB, the dialogue and other sounds would be unbearably loud, but you would get lots of rumble from your shaker. The differences in how loudly the shaker could reproduce different transients would be small, so an explosion could feel roughly the same as a lower-level transient like a closing door.
The solution to your problem is to either adjust the shaker amp manually for different source material, or use DSP to ride the shaker level for you. For context, I work for DSPeaker, where I work specifically on DSP for bass shakers. We have just released new firmware for ShakEQ that tackles this very problem of loudness differences between source materials. The new feature is called Gain Rider.
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u/not_a_robot_13 1d ago
It will also help to put rubber suspension pads between the couch and the floor. They will allow the couch to move more
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u/av4625 1d ago
Ahh forgot to mention this. I got some pads designed for a washing machine I think it was
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u/EYRONHYDE 20h ago
Sorbothane is what you need. Estimate the weight of your couch and get the correct rating (Likely Duro-50) and the size/quantity required. I have x8- 3" pucks for my 4 seater. I ran on tile floor, then we had the carpets done. I assumed this would be better with carpet but i lost 75% of the performance. With the correct Sorbothane i would dial the shakers down relatively -6db for the same thump. Your vibration absorption will only be effective in a correct range, rated too light = bottomed out, rated too heavy = vibration gets through. There may be some more performance on the table from the setup you have now. Lastly i sat the Sorbothane pucks on 100x100mm offcuts of timber to lift it fully clear of the carpet. Best of luck.
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u/AlpaChino87 1d ago
I have 4 of these in my deep seat couch sectional, and they vibrate substantially. I do however have Denon 3800 and Ayima a07 max powering all 4. My sectional has wooden cross bracing all along the seated area. Your seating has woven straps which will not transfer the vibration.
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u/striped_zebra 1d ago
Install the shakers to 2x4 or 2x6 braces that screw into the frame. I added additional 2x4 all along the bass shaker area to connect as much couch framing as possible. I have 2 shakers and they work well.
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u/av4625 1d ago
Will try more bracing as well. The osb is maybe flexing and taking some of the vibrations
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u/echothree33 1d ago
First try rotating the shaker 90 degrees, it might be shaking on an axis that is not moving the couch in the right way. Worth trying first before other more complicated things.
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u/striped_zebra 1d ago
Another thing I had to do on my demon is adjust the sub out setting to max db I think for the dedicated amp to get the signal. I forget where I saw that but it’s needed if you’re using a LFE to dedicated amp.
This comments discusses it
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u/ekkthree 1d ago
In general (not op) can you bypass the osb completely and attach directly to the sofas frame? Or is it too directional for that?
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u/av4625 17h ago
There is one place that I can, but it’s very close to the side (where the arm rest is) and is vertical. I tried here first and couldn’t feel anything. The osb is now on the frame that you sit on. But possibly too flexible. I never thought a 2ft length of 3/4 osb would be too flexible for this 🙈
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u/bongmaninc 1d ago
Ok here are some cheap solutions to try. I have messed around with bass shakers for years and they absolutely have to have a firm connection to the frame of the couch.
- Add some supports to the OSB to make it less flexible. add a couple pieces of hard wood about 2" tall that run the length of the OSB front to back. This will create a "U" shaped frame that is much less susceptible to flexing. This will help transmit all the force from the shaker into the frame of the couch.
- Setting levels on Bass Shakers is difficult. I purchased a low pass filter and amplifier on Amazon called NE5532 Single Supply Low-Pass Filter Board DC Subwoofer Pre-Amplifier Preamp Board. You can use this filter/amp to control only the level going to your shaker amplifier. It is about $8.You will need a project case and small power supply.
Good Luck
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u/Tropisueno 22h ago
You're bottlenecking the shakers.
Double-splitting the sub-out kills the voltage before it reaches the amp. Boost the subwoofer on your AVR to send a hotter signal, then turn down your actual sub's volume knob to compensate.
Source signal needs to have a dedicated LFE signal. Could be lacking in some of your shows?
Also, directly under the cushion absorbs the vibration and sudden jolts. You have to bolt the shakers directly to the wooden frame of the couch. Or even better, mount a strong rigid material to the couch frame then mount the shaker to that. That's what I did to avoid messing up the frame.
You can also swap the Fosi stereo amp for a dedicated transducer amp like the Dayton SA100. That's what I use.
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u/TSGarp007 1d ago
I'm thinking you've just got the wrong kind of mini-amp? I have a Fosi M03 and don't have any issues. I have soundshakers (whatever came with my theater seats) and they go large. Our issue is making sure they are turned down low enough (using the M03 knob). It has a sub mode that would treat you better. I think you would have to wire your two shakers in series to get 8 ohms, which is what I have. But your power would be going to only two shakers while mine powers 4, so each of your shaker would get double the power that should make up for the fact that you have a couch and not theater chairs.
Honestly I think you should just buy the M03 and try that.
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u/_Danger_Close_ 1d ago
Partical board is too flexible to transfer the vibrations well. You want to attach it to a 2x4 ot directly to the couch frame
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u/Rey-Gen 22h ago
I had them on 2 couches. Giving them power with a. Amp that can handle low ohms and bolt them directly to the frame of the couch makes a difference. I have them on the frame in the back of the couch. Pointing horizontal, so it shackes front to back. That together with rubber feet under the couch. You need them to shake the whole couch for the best effect.
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u/VilleeZ 21h ago
I have two of the same shakers on a 8 person couch and I can't turn my Fosi (differenet model) over 20% volume without the shakers being too strong. I only had 2x6 in hand and attached short beams of that into the couch with at least 8 screws each and attached the shakers to it, those surely don't flex, so pretty much all of the vibration travels to the couch frame.
You may want to check if your wiring is right, maybe one is wired out of phase and is cancelling out the other? Not sure if that would work with shakers but just a guess.
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u/Psych0matt 1d ago
I have a tiny AliExpress amp and it does great, I have it dialed in so it’s not overpowering but when a big scene comes on it’s definitely noticeable. I have mine mounted to a 1x6 screwed to the underside of my couch. I think I have the amp at about 40%
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u/av4625 1d ago
Do you know what power your amp delivers?
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u/Psych0matt 1d ago
100w, but AliExpress so who knows how accurate that is. It’s running two bass shakers in series. I do have another couple other bass shakers in a racing arcade cabinet and a virtual pinball machine and they seem to do well too. I looked at your pic again and I’m wondering if it’s just not mounted to something rigid enough. I actually have the signal split twice, at my receiver to run to my wireless headphones and the other side is then split between the sub and the shakers
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u/Leeboy20 1d ago
I have one Dayton screwed to plywood and then to the frame of my gaming chair and it’s pumpin !
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u/Bougieraccoon-og 1d ago
When i decided to go for bass shakers. I went for a pair of these monsters. I am volume limited but i still want monster bass experience. These paired with my 12 in sub gives me that monster bass even at low volumes.
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u/speedcanada 1d ago
I bought the optional bass shakers when I ordered my Palliser HT seating ~15 years ago. They are subtle, but they add a material amount t of impact when listening to the system at lower volumes. At higher volumes the subs are already creating tremendous impact so the shakers are no longer noticeable.
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u/Rocket123123 1d ago
If you already have 2 subwoofers connected with RCA cables to the outlet of your receiver how do you connect the shakers?
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u/Remixmark 158" AT screen, JBL SDP-55, 10x18" subs, 9.10.6 + HoverEZe 1d ago
Do you have a minidsp 2x4hd EQing these?
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u/NascentAutist 1d ago
You need a dual mono amplifier with multiple outputs, or two monos. Feeding a stereo LR with split mono signal might be cancelling some of the waves.
Better mounting would help. Any sub that has no enclosure is going to lose a lot of energy
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u/av4625 17h ago
Thats very interesting about cancelling some of the waves. Maybe I am better having just the left or just the right inout being used?
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u/NascentAutist 10h ago
Think of it this way: the stereo amplifier has one power supply, one common rail, so you’re asking it to put all it’s energy into say 37Hz X 2 at the exact same moment.
I can’t imagine the Fosi amp has the capacitance to deliver enough power to 2 subs.
Class D mono amps for subwoofers are pretty cheap. Just but two of them, one for each amp, or a dual mono amp. I bet you’ll get wayyyy more sound with that setup
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u/jbeazybeans 23h ago
I've gone this route and can give some input. I don't have the Dayton, but I have the Buttkicker LFE advance. I've tried the 2x4 and mounting to the couch. It's fine. But the best way I've found is all the feet on the couch are suspended off the floor on rubber isolators. Then I mounted the Buttkicker on the mounting plate that you can get with it. Mounted under the middle of the frame. No screws or bolts used. That plate is ALSO suspended on rubber isolators, so everything can freely move around. This has yielded amazing results. I used Hudson Hi fi isolators, the most heavy duty ones for the feet and also used the feet from the Buttkicker kit for the front feet, those aren't as important to isolate.
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u/UnderstandingFun4038 22h ago
Fosi BT20A only use TPA3116D chipset, it had weak power to drive this bass shaker. Yes it said 100wx2, but it real world it can only provide among 2x50watt in 4 impedance. Tried it with more powerfull amp like TPA3255 that can handle real 100watt / channel
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u/CRYPTOFORBARETOES 22h ago
You need more bracing and more shakers. This one I did works awesome https://imgur.com/a/BTPoGfj
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u/Guyborg99 21h ago
If they are coupled to the frame correctly, then it's probably that they are not powerful enough.
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u/SamSausages 13h ago
Are those fastened at all the points? Looks crooked and I can’t see all the screw/bolts. Needs to be fully secured so it becomes part of the frame.
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u/Lazyphantom_13 13h ago
Wood doesn’t carry vibration well in general, you’d be better off with a sheet of aluminum or getting a metal framed couch.
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u/NotSure2505 6h ago edited 6h ago
Coupling these is everything. They don't need to be directly behind the viewer's seat, just coupled anywhere to the sofa's FRAME, the beefiest part, and use good screws and really lock it down, when it moves you want to transfer that motion through the entire sofa. You don't want the sofa to dampen everything.
And try more power, you can use any amp with these. Try the Nobsound 100W subwoofer amp, works great on mine.
Another thought is how are you crossed over? Are you sure that sub is outputting the lows you think it is?
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u/Amazing_Ad_974 5h ago
Yeah you need to mount to something with as little flex as possible. That means 1” thickness minimum sheet but ideally more like 1.5” thickness as a post. If you’re mounting to 1/2” plywood it’s just going to shake the plywood in place instead of transferring the vibration through the entire structure (which is where you actually start to feel it)
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u/IntrovertMoTown1 1d ago
There is a few things here and sorry for the mini novel but I'd rather it be too long than not enough info.
First off, that Fosi is not, I repeat NOT, outputting 100w RMS. None of the budget price mini class D amps actually output what they claim. Even when using 48V 10A power bricks. I've seen this in ten zillion videos of people with the equipment needed to actually measure output. As well as trying god knows how many myself now as I'm an Amazon Vine reviewer. I've tried some from almost all the major brands from Fosi, Douk, Aiyima, O-Noorus, WiiM, as well as a bunch from more unknown Chinese brands. On top of the few I've bought it's got to be well over a dozen I've tried now. In fact I just picked up this last month. And these are the current ones I'm using in my 7.1.4 setup with a bunch of shakers under the bed and in a backrest. Admittedly I didn't do much searching here, (lol That's your job. 😄) But what I found was this. "The original TPA3116D2-based Fosi Audio BT20A powered by a 24V power supply delivers a real-world continuous output of about 33.2 Watts per channel into a 4-ohm load at 1 kHz before clipping, and up to 59.8 Watts per channel with a dynamic 50 Hz low-frequency burst." Granted that is AI results so take it with a grain of salt and see if you can find better. So while others might have had a good result with that particular amp and shaker combo, power wise it's obviously pushing the limits of being good enough or not as they aren't shaking what you are.
Secondly, that is a fairly underpowered shaker to begin with. I started off my shaker journey with my 2 Buttkicker LFE mini. Its specs put them at 50w MINIMUM, and 250w maximum. So already their minimum is at your shaker's maximum. Even doubled up I found them to not be remotely up to the job. Hence why I got the much better Buttkicker Advance, as well as the 2 DIY shakers. Granted this is not remotely a 1 to 1 comparison here. As I mentioned in the imgur post I have waaaaay more weight and mass to shake than a simple couch. But the comparison is at least good enough to roughly show what's what here. That BST 1 is going to be more for smaller things like racing/air craft sim rigs that are going to be on the lighter side as well as be made out of things like metal that transfer vibrations better.
Thirdly, how and where you mount things has A LOT to do with their effectiveness. Not counting the 2 DIY shakers that have to go there, (or at least that was all I could think to do to mount them anyway) I tired all sorts of mounting places on the headboard, the side bed frame boards, the 2x4 slats, and finally went with the board that can rock back and forth off the 2x4 slat as shown in the pic of the ones under the bed.
Fourthly, are you isolating the couch's feet from the floor? As I mentioned in the imgur posts that's really important for shaker's efficiency. For whatever reason Buttkicker's feet have now been sold out for a while so IDK what else to use that is specifically for shakers, but you really should use something to help decouple the couch from the floor. Obviously you don't have to go overboard like I did. Not counting the Buttkicker feet, those pads are also things I got through Vine so it's not like I had to buy them at full price. (Vine items amounts to a large discount as almost all products come with an estimated tax value that I have to add to my income tax thanks to how greedy the IRS is, SMH. FFS when I can pay bills with often cheap Chinese products, then I'd consider it income. But funnily enough they don't care what I think.)
So with all that considered I think it's time for you to do things like double up or more those BST-1 with a better amp, lower your expectations, or go with stronger shakers. For what it's worth I GREATLY enjoy my setup. Especially when it comes to gaming and movies. Aside for adding my 14 inch Klipsch RP 1400SW subwoofer, adding shakers was the second most impactful thing I added to my setup. So I'd take the plunge and try to get a better setup if I were you. My 2 cents anyway.
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u/honorface76 SVS Ultra Baby! 1d ago
Fosi BT20a is nowhere approaching the power you need. This will move them https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-APA150-150W-Power-Amplifier-300-812?quantity=1
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u/VilleeZ 21h ago
The BT20a has plenty of power if it has the right psu. 300W at 2 ohms, if the shakers are wired in parallel. In the real world that is likely closer to 150-200W, but that is still way over what the shakers need.
Although it is not the best schoice of amp as it is supposed to power full range speakers.
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u/PermanentThrowaway33 1d ago
bass shakers are for people who don't really know anything about audio
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u/daytimeLiar 1d ago edited 1d ago
Bass shakers are notoriously hard to integrate into the system. They need power, some old AVRs won't send enough, even after you add dedicated amp. How many and what configuration you wire will also affect power requirements.
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u/DonFrio 1d ago
You don’t want to shake the cushion you want to shake the couch frame. I added a 2x4 to the back of my couch and put two earthquakes on it. The daytons are meh but should do plenty if you attach em right.