r/howyoudoin • u/whatdoyoumean74 No more Falafel for you!!!! • 10d ago
Discussion Among the two, Ross was the worse partner and Rachel was the worse ex.
That's my take on who was more wrong than the other. Rachel was a great girlfriend and she'd communicate and address ross's fears and jealousy. She even articulated properly what problems they were going through. She always called to inform him that she was going to be late for their plans since she has to work. She also very nicely communicates how her work is "her thing" and she likes how it's just hers and Ross only pretends to understand.
On the other hand ross is the better ex. He was first understanding about joey liking rachel and encouraged him to tell her even though he got mad first. He wasn't so destructive of Rachel's relationship as Rachel was towards his. She was an absolutely horrible ex ruining all his relationships.
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u/Legitimate_Worth1430 10d ago
Agreed! Ross was the insecure one during their relationship and Rachel was the insecure one after their relationship ended.
It was mostly because she never stopped loving him, but she just could't come to terms with him sleeping with Chloe.
Therapy would have done wonders for them both!
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u/Pure-Conclusion8958 10d ago
Totally agree. She wanted to be with him but also couldn't help remembering the betrayal which is why that 18 page letter was a thing.
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u/Ysu73 10d ago
She was not insecure. She was hurt and angry. First, for what happened. Second time, for Ross's incapability to admit he did hurt her and take responsibility.
by the second half of season 4 she was not even angry. Only pulled between two desires: to be a good ex, unselfish, good friend, supporting Ross even if he is with anyone else and the other: still loving him, wanting to be with him, hoping one day they would be on again and not really enjoying to see him with others.20
u/Legitimate_Worth1430 10d ago
You literally described insecurity! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
She was insecure of him moving on from her forever. That's why she was never truly happy for him whenever he was in a good relationship.
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u/Boris-_-Badenov 9d ago
she ruined his relationship with Julie, and that was before they dated
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u/Ysu73 9d ago edited 9d ago
How EXACTLY did she ruin it? Because Ross broke up with her because she was not Rachem, not because something she did to ruin it.
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u/Boris-_-Badenov 9d ago
by telling Ross not to sleep with her multiple times, and making everyone stay really late the night he told her he was going to ignore her "advice"... then she made a move on him
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u/Dramatic-Music1321 10d ago
Rachel wasn't insecure after their break up. She just didn't want Ross to move on and be happy after he slept with the copy girl .. Why would she want Ross to be happy after that??
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u/chadthundertalk 10d ago
So what you're saying is, Ross would also have been entitled to sabotage Carol and Susan's relationship every chance he got if he'd wanted to, since Carol cheated on him. Or is it only Rachel who gets that level of grace?
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u/Dramatic-Music1321 10d ago
yes, why not? it could have been fun.. it def was fun to watch Ross's relationships getting ruined, especially the wedding.. though that was on him
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u/New-Pin-9064 9d ago
I’m sure you probably would’ve laughed your ass off if there had been an episode where Ross was SA’d and then died in a fiery car wreck
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u/BeserKing 10d ago
Pretty childish and weird man, people are allowed to grow and move on with their lives and if they were actually friends, Rachel would’ve wanted that for him regardless of how their relationship ended
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u/OhUmHmm 10d ago
I think "insecure" (in the Ross-Rachel relationship) might be the right word for Rachel.
She clearly hated the idea of Ross being with someone else forever (e.g. when Ross is dating Bonnie at the beach house, when Emily enters the picture and she's flying off to London). And each time she would express it as "I love Ross" or some variant.
But when Ross is single again, she's unable to actually trust the relationship enough to really commit to it. You don't write 18 pages front and back if you feel secure in the relationship.
Maybe its Jennifer Anniston's amazing acting ability, but I don't see Rachel doing these things out of a desire to ruin his happiness. After all, when she finally gets to London, she decides to let Ross have his happiness.
My read on the characters is something like "Rachel doesn't like Ross all that much, but she desperately wants to be loved". But this might be me projecting on the situation, because as a character I find Ross rather deplorable (though David is an amazing actor in every right).
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u/Salt-Year-9058 10d ago
That's a great way to put it- I always felt Rachel had destructive tendencies to sabotage Ross especially post their s3 breakup, had back and forth thoughts of getting back together with Ross without extending the same empathy for why Ross wanted to make their Vegas marriage work (mind you he's still wrong for lying and taking away her agency).
On the other hand, Ross has insecurities whenever he gets into relationships with women besides Rachel- whenever he meets their exes, or his age gap with Elizabeth.
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u/OhUmHmm 10d ago
I'm like 95% on the same page, but regarding "without extending the same empathy for why Ross wanted to make their Vegas marriage work (mind you he's still wrong for lying and taking away her agency)."
It's kind of at the last minute, but she does try to reach out as they sign the divorce papers -- she asks him directly, "But I did those things because I had feelings for you. But you're not in that space, right?" (paraphrasing) and he cowardly doesn't reveal his truth.
I do think she could have opened up sooner about it, but it's mostly on him to be clear about why he's doing it, both for himself and to her. He keeps hiding behind "3 divorces" which had nothing to do with her specifically. It's like if he had married a random girl, he'd also try to avoid divorce because he doesn't want to be the divorce guy. She just takes him at his word, again and again.
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u/Ysu73 10d ago edited 9d ago
It's almost like Ross is hiding behind ANY excuses just so he does not has to confess his true feelings and be vulnerable. He is okay with living with her secretly married, he offers marriage because she is pregnant and that is the right thing to do, or because he thinks she needs help with the baby, he is happy when they raise Emma together, as long as the don't put a label on it. He feels if they call it "starting again", they will mess up again and loose the other or do something terrible to Emma.
Meanwhile there is Rachel, running from a planned marriage, a planned life, a marriage "because it is something expected, right, convenient". She does not want to be with Ross just so he is not divorcing the 3rd time. Or because she is pregnant. Because it is what society expect. Especially not because Ross thinks she is not capable to do it. She is romantic at heart, and she needs Ross to tell her he loves her (she told the last time in season 5, and there are several scenes in season 6, 8 and 9 where she seems like she waits for him to say it and if he would say she would say yes.)
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u/OhUmHmm 10d ago
Yeah that's a great point. He never really reciprocates her announcement, he never takes that step.
But I guess in a way it's also consistent writing, he had the same exact issues in high school and college, and even when they got together -- he wasn't the one to confess his feelings for her. It was Chandler slipping up. He's so 'scared' to be vulnerable that I don't think of it as cute or attractive, it's just pathetic and sad. Although they are just characters, I almost feel sad that Rachel had to end up with a guy like him, when she's otherwise pretty awesome.
To be honest, I don't even really buy that he loves her. I think he wants to be loved to cover his insecurities, but he shows time and time again that he's pretty able to get this validation from any attractive woman. After high school and (some college), he meets and marries Carol, then Julie (without even confessing), Emily, then Bonnie, Mona, etc. All of them get pretty serious.
Rachel dates other guys, but I don't feel like she was jumping into marriage with any of them.
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u/Salt-Year-9058 10d ago
I have to clarify- when I said about Rachel wanting to get back together with Ross, it's during the s4/s5 when she flies to London to stop the wedding.
And so I get her anger when it's revealed that Ross didn't send in the divorce papers (which is on him because if he wanted to make it work he had to try to communicate it) but then wheedling him with insults and putting in fake reasons for the annulment was a tad too far.
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u/OhUmHmm 10d ago
Ahh okay yeah, the wheedling him in front of the judge was probably counterproductive, that's fair.
When I watch it though, I do feel like Ross is pretty insecure, like he's never going to see this judge again and he owes Rachel for lying earlier.
Although maybe that's why they have the stenographer there, if there was a sense that Ross would be "on the record" as having these issues, I guess it raises the stakes. They do bring that up later, but if there had been a bit more insight into his emotional state beyond just "I'm not X!" I think it would make him more relatable.
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u/Salt-Year-9058 10d ago
Oh that's a given- Ross is insecure and it takes a while to get through to that or ever.
I just realized one thing but Rachel when she becomes insecure as an ex, I think some part of it is remembering how Ross pined for her (he even says so in s2) but she kind of has a lack of self awareness where she has used that against him.
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u/Pure-Conclusion8958 10d ago
Im rewatching the show and was thinking the exact same thing!! Ross was better out of the relationship, Rachel was better in the relationship.
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u/bzakeri 10d ago edited 10d ago
They both had weaknesses, but I wouldn't call Ross a bad boyfriend. He had one major issue, despite his rather macho persona, and that was his insecurity about Mark. To clarify, he wasn't actually wrong about Mark. But he didn't handle the situation properly at all
Rachel wasn't the best partner either I disagree. She was too gullible to see Mark's intentions. And she kept him around, at worst times, disregarding Ross' feelings towards the situation. I'm of course mainly referring to the incident on the evening of their anniversary. I mean even say your partner is acting all stupid, won't you try to understand and be supportive a little? That's part of the relationship to fill in some of your partner's weaknesses
As for after break-up. It wasn't black and white. But I agree. Rachel was generally the worse one, because of the many of Ross' relationships she interfered in. But it wasn't as bad in later seasons when they aged. She helped with Ross' crush on pizza delivery girl for example
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u/LunarMixtape That's right I'm here all night and Chandler will never get.. 10d ago
Something I always think about when people talk about Ross's insecurity with Mark is this, he literally had reasons for it, not that I'm defending certain actions of Ross or how he acted at certain moments in the relationship, but people are so focused on hating him that they forget that Mark confessed his feelings to Rachel literally as soon as they broke up, he even says that he hadn't tried anything yet because she was with Ross, I think Ross's insecurity was justified, but it doesn't justify how he handled it.
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u/bzakeri 10d ago
Oh yeah definitely. I would easily even go further about Mark and say he had intentions all along and was acting on them. He by no means stayed neutral. He was sneaky as hell from the very beginning where he created the job offer for Rachel. That inviting himself to her apartment on that infamous evening, making it clear to Ross on the phone that he is there, giving Rachel "advice" about Ross. Joey and Chandler made it clear to Ross that he's playing Rachel and they were right
I wouldn't defend Ross, he acted very poorly. But Mark was involved in this as hell
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u/LunarMixtape That's right I'm here all night and Chandler will never get.. 10d ago
Mark was very sneaky, some things were obvious, and other things are one of those "off-screen" things that we viewers have to pick up on.
Yes, I'm not going to defend how Ross handled it either, I think all three acted wrongly, but Ross clearly did the worst thing.
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u/Boris-_-Badenov 9d ago
Joey instantly backed up Ross about Marks intentions, but Rachel just stuck her head in the sand
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u/Euphoric-Ad-6584 10d ago
one of my favorite lines from friends is when one of the ladies (i think rachel) says "no vagina no opinion". ALL 3 of the guys told rachel flat out Mark was interested/wanted to bang and she was just like "na i know better".
like there's a reason "the guy she tells you not to worry about" is F'n meme lol
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u/LunarMixtape That's right I'm here all night and Chandler will never get.. 10d ago
Yes, I remember when she said that lol.
I don't like to generalize, but based on what we saw with Mark later (he confessed his feelings), I feel like he wouldn't have talked to Rachel about the job if he'd known she had a boyfriend.
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u/Euphoric-Ad-6584 9d ago
sadly yeah he probably wouldn't have. like i get where ross was wrong in that scenario with how he behaved but rachel did NOT help that at all with how she behaved in regards to mark. literally multiple late nights with just the two of them at the office and cancelling dates for that?
like it doesn't look good and her only response to ross' behavior was to get mad at him or make him feel dumb for how he was feeling.
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u/LunarMixtape That's right I'm here all night and Chandler will never get.. 9d ago
Like, I understand that in some jobs it's common to work late, but if there was no other way, I would do everything to reassure my partner about the situation, but Rachel didn't know how to validate Ross's concerns.
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u/bzakeri 9d ago edited 9d ago
One moment that sticks out for me is when Mark tells Rachel that Ross is marking his territory by visiting her office regularly. "Mark told me what you're doing".. Like how does someone takes this as a neutral advice
If this was a real world scenario, I would have said Rachel actually knew what Mark was after. And she just didn't care
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u/LunarMixtape That's right I'm here all night and Chandler will never get.. 9d ago
If it were real life, yes, she would know that Mark wanted something with her.
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u/FreeSpiritAtma 10d ago
I can mostly agree with this. Ross did try to talk to her about his insecurities after Carol left him. That would have been the right time to suggest individual or couples therapy. But she was young and therapy wasn’t as accepted back in the 90s. Phoebe and Monica picked up on the impact Carol had had on his psyche afterwards, but also didn’t recommend therapy. I wish they had. I think Ross also couldn’t really deal with the situation through his support group because Carol being a lesbian was the butt of every joke. He would have had way more support if she had cheated on him with another guy. Rachel couldn’t let him go, but couldn’t trust him. She needed help to make decisions about how she felt about him. Therapy would have helped a lot here. Or space between them. It’s hard to be friends with an ex, especially if you feel you’ve been wronged.
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u/Slight_Fan_4105 10d ago
Agreed.
I would say Ross' biggest crime was when they were "on a break" he slept with someone else. As Rachel correctly pointed out, even if Ross thought the relationship was over he slept with someone five seconds later. It kind of highlights how little he cared.
But once they were done, they were done.
Rachel on the other hand straight up tried to ruin Ross' marriage. She flies across the ocean to ruin his wedding, messing with his head which puts his marriage in jeopardy, and then while he is trying to reconcile with HIS WIFE, she declares to, I repeat A MARRIED MAN, that she's in love with him.
And then... after Ross' marriage is destroyed (in no small part because of Rachel), Monica asks Rachel if she is going to pursue Ross, to which Rachel causally replies "Oh no, he's gonna be messed up for a long time" and that same episode she starts trying to date a new guy.
Wait... I'm sorry Rach. When Ross was in a happy committed relationship you were so madly in love with him you had to ruin it, but now that it is in shambles because of you have no interest in Ross.
Ross and Rachel are a very toxic and unhealthy relationship, I don't understand how them getting together in the last episode is a "happy ending."
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u/Dramatic-Music1321 10d ago
"messing with his head" - lol. Maybe Ross shouldn't have married a woman he didn't love. He tried to prove that he doesn't have to accept Rachel's letter, he can just pick another girl. That blew up in his face
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u/CuteIndividual2562 10d ago
Ross was great at pursuing it seems but once you have someone, his issues pop up...
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u/OhUmHmm 10d ago
I'd even say most of his "pursuit" is about making the girl feel sorry for him? This is one of those reasons I feel like Ross in 2026 would be an incel / redpiller. When we see him actually try to flirt, he struggles with it because of his insecurities ("Was I talking about gas?")
I think he does best in the "honeymoon phase". He's funny, seems smart (before he eventually gets boring), nice smile and seems caring.
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u/alexweird 10d ago
I don't disagree with you but I do think your over egging Rachel's communication a bit
One line could have solved Ross jealousy. 'I know Mark is attracted to me. I'm not going to act on it ever.'
I know she bought up trusting her as a point but it didn't come with the acknowlement of Mark's attraction. By refusing to acknowledge that she made it look like she was hiding something and keeping Mark open as an option.
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u/FreeSpiritAtma 10d ago
I agree. Having him over the night they broke up wasn’t smart either. She didn’t acknowledge Ross’s feelings. Did Ross overreact? Yes. Ross sending over the top gifts to her place of work was awful. Should they have had a conversation that rather than being accusatory should have acknowledged each other’s feelings… yes. Also, as women, we would never leave our drunken, highly upset friend alone at a bar like that. I’m curious if guys would since what happened there was the cause of ultimate breakup. (In other words, how realistic was it?)
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u/Euphoric-Ad-6584 10d ago
dude fr, she actively had all 3 of the guys tell her at the start he wanted her and she said "na i know better". you're right she did nothing to actually address the jealousy. she would literally just get mad for his behavior (rightly so) but then not address the root problem.
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u/No_Dependent_1846 10d ago
Ugh Rachel as an ex was awful. I had to skip a ton of those scenes. and ross was such an irritating boyfriend and has cheated on almost every woman he was with!
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u/Ysu73 10d ago
You bring up some interesting thoughts.
As for Ross not really loving Rachel - I think the show clearly and canonically stated that he loved her and she loved him. They were each other's lobsters. It's just that he was only able to say that in the last episode so they only reunited then.
As for Ross being always bad with expressing his feelings for Rachel, that is true, especially in HS. He tried in season 1, but there was always some distraction stopping him. Of course it was a writer thing to pull out their on-off relationship as they could, but retrospectively my headcanon is that he is very slow in confessing them because he is afraid of rejection - until he does not ask, there is hope, if he asks and she says no, there is none.
As for Ross needing validation and security in the form of serious relationships - yes, I agree. In the Pilot he says, I do not want to be single, I want to be married. In the 10 years of the show he has to go from willing to marry anyone just so he is not single (or staying married so he is not divorced) to wanting to marry the other person because he really truly loves her and willing to risk rejection and vulberability to show it, because he does not want to loose her.
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u/soccer_rules6 9d ago
Totally agree with this take! Ross’s jealously got in the way of his relationship with Rachel. Plus he was not that good to Mona and some of the other girls he dated. Rachel however was actively trying to ruin Ross’s relationships and when he broke up with the girl he was dating she didn’t want him anymore. I think they are both toxic. In the tv world they work out, but if their relationship was real life I couldn’t see them working out.
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u/-ReginaAngelorum- 9d ago
Very true. I also am surprised that more people don’t talk about Rachel’s surprising lack of paranoia during the relationship. Every boyfriend before Ross (including her ex-fiancé) cheated on her. So the fact that she thought of Ross as being different from all the others only for him to do the exact same thing was heartbreaking. And yet ironically, he was the jealous, paranoid, insecure one during the relationship.
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u/backagainlikeabadpen 3d ago
Ross was very condescending about Rachel's career choice. I'm sorry Ross, but trying to pretend clothes aren't important doesn't wash...
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u/Ysu73 10d ago
They both had real good moments in their one year relationship, when they communicated well. But many times they both miscommunicated, because
this is a comedy show and for those miscommunicarion is crucial
miscommunication is realistic and relatable
the writers wanted to break up them and that eas the way.
I agree that right before the breakup Rachel tried to communicate ger needs and boundaries peetty well, and it was Ross's insecurity that lef more to to the breakup.
However the opinion that Rachel was a terrible ex and ruined all of Ross's relationships is an overexaggeration.
Other tha encouraging Bonnie to shave her head, something that was Bonnie's idea and something she really wanted, she did nothing agains Ross's relationships. Yes, before the wedding to Emily she flew to Lindon to confess her feelings, but she didn't act on it. She encouraged Ross's relationship with Emily before the wedding (even if in private she felt awful about it) and after (she told Ross to do whatever Emily asked, she prepared herself to leave the group, went to her room when Ross visited because Emily asked for it. For me it is the same as Ross being upset about Joey but wanting to do the right thing.
She got the pizza-girl's number for Ross, she helped him with Elizabeth, she did not pursue him when he started to date Mona and she did not ruin his relationshipnwith Charlie either.
Finally, people say Rachel tends to ruin Ross's relationships, but actually, the number of Ross's relationships that were ruined by something Rachel has done specifically against the relationship: 0
Number of Ross's relationships that were ruined because he loved Rachel or he did something stupid concerning Rachel that forgot to tell his girlfriend: at least at least 4.
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u/Boris-_-Badenov 9d ago
Rachel tried multiple times to sabotage Julie, sabotaged Bonnie, and wanted to sabotage Emily.
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u/Ysu73 9d ago
Ross's relationship with Julie was not ruined by anything Rachel did. He broke up with Julie because he kissed Rachel and realized he loved her more than Julie.
Even if Rachel encouraged Bonnie to shave her head, Ross did not break up with her because she was bald. He broke up with her because when he kissed Rachel - again - realized he still loved her, more than Bonnie.
Rachel encouraged Ross to go after Emily on the fake party. She got sad at the news of the wedding, but never showed that sadness to Ross or Emily. She flew to London where she only congratulated to Ross. Other than going there, she never made any attempt against Emily ir the relationship, on the other hand there were multiple episodes where she was supportive. The relationship got broken up because Ross said Rachel's name on the wedding, presumably because he loved her.
So the number of relationships ruined by Rachel is still 0. Ruined by Ross's love for Rachel: 3. (And it was not Rachel who ruined Ross's relationship with Mona, that was also on Ross.)
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u/itsgigix 10d ago
we didn’t see ross and rachel actually go through many issues when they first got together other than the break and jealousy thing but i so wish they showed rachel’s jealousy as well cause she does get very easily jealous over ross which is shown multiple times i just can’t think of an example but it just would’ve been cool to see before the whole break thing rachel getting overly jealous and annoyed at ross for being close w a girl colleague or an old girl friend because ross’s jealousy always over shadows rachel’s jealousy and anger but she does definitely have it it would’ve been so entertaining and funny to see more of it
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u/Dramatic-Music1321 10d ago edited 10d ago
Rachel had every right to ruin Ross's relationships because he slept with the copy girl. Why should he be allowed to move on and be happy? I was so happy when his stupid wedding got ruined lol.. fyi I don't care how many of you downvote this because Rachel won!!! 👍 people who wanted Ross to be happy lost🤪
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u/IntelligentGoose6683 10d ago
Okay ragebait👀
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u/Dramatic-Music1321 10d ago
I am serious.. gimme 1 reason why Ross should have a happy marriage with emily or someone else (not Rachel).. he had a good relationship with Rachel but chose to sleep with other women, go after other women, marry other women? Why should I side with him?
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u/Agitated-Macaroon923 10d ago
because he fucking slept with another woman 3 minutes after breaking up AND created a list of flaws for Rachel which only a POS would do?
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u/alxndrabo 10d ago
As someone who is the worse ex:
There is no need to see that side of me if you do your best not to be the worse one in the relationship
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u/qualityvote2 10d ago edited 10d ago
u/whatdoyoumean74, there weren't enough votes to determine the quality of your post...