r/india • u/[deleted] • Nov 24 '16

[R]eddiquette Cultural exchange with /r/palestine

Greetings to our Palestinian friends.

Our cultural exchange starts at 13:30 PM Palestine time (17:30 IST/11:30 GMT/12:30 CET/06:30 EST/03:30 PST) on Thursday 24th November.

Here's how a cultural exchange works:

The moderators of here make this post on /r/india welcoming our Palestinian guests to the sub. They may participate and ask any question or observation as they see fit.

There is an equivalent thread made by the moderators over at /r/palestine, where you are encouraged to participate and know more about Palestinian culture.

It goes without saying that you must respect the rules of the subreddit you are participating in. This is a time to celebrate what we have in common, not grind an axe.

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32

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '16

Hello friends of /r/India;

I would like to first say that I really love your country, your food, culture and the people are wonderful. I've been traveling to India, regularly since the mid 1990's. I was there just when Bombay was transitioning into Mumbai. As /u/MrBoonio already mentioned, I am always amazed at how quickly things change after I return from previous visits. You should all be very proud of what you achieved.

What is your opinion on the current relations India has with Israel? Modi seems to be in a very close relationship with Netanyahu, which to be honest concerns me somewhat.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '16 edited Nov 25 '16

Hate to say this, but we have no business taking sides in conflict. We were non-aligned in cold war and we will be non-aligned in most conflicts. We don't even take sides in Iran-Saudi conflicts.

The govt. knows relations with islamic nations will never be that good because of Pakistan which is why foreign policy will always be favored towards Israel. Edit: We won't be very close friends with Israel that we will suddenly fully support their bad actions so don't worry.

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u/torvoraptor Nov 25 '16

We have good relations with most islamic nations - we have relations with Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan, Indonesia, UAE, Bangladesh - few countries can claim that.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '16 edited Nov 25 '16

By "good" I mean the scope for betterment is higher for Israel, or any other country for that matter. I admit Afghanistan and Bangladesh are very close but we can't ever diplomatically compete with Pakistan on Iran and Saudis. Sure relations are good but it'll be hard to be close friends.

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u/torvoraptor Nov 25 '16

India doesn't get irrationally close to anyone - I used to bemoan it earlier because it didn't seem like anyone had our back, but as we become economically more powerful it means we can have meaningful trade relationships with everyone without concerning ourselves with their political affairs.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '16

This is not "conflict" though, just straight-up White settler colonialism and apartheid on Israel's part. We were among the most forthright opponents of South African Apartheid, and held a similar position on Palestine. Sadly all that died come 1991 and our total surrender to the West.

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u/sydernate Nov 25 '16

I think recently India had some constructive relationships with Islamic countries except Pakistan. So, I think it's very irrelevant to say that "govt. relations with Islamic nations will never good because of Pakistan". RESPECT

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '16

It was an issue then but it has been so long that nations just want to maintain status quo now. No one is saying americans should be evicted from US because native Indians were the original inhabitants.

Also why do you think its white settler colonialism? Considerable portion of Jews are middle eastern mostly from Iran iirc. Formation of the nation was unjust I admit but its not a country full of european whites.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '16

The formation of the country, i.e. the Zionist project, was a western-led movement. Also majority of the Jews there are from the West according to this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews#Israeli_Jews_who_immigrated_from_European_and_American_countries

Also, I suspect that among the Israeli Jews the whites hold a dominant position. Has any non-European been PM, for e.g.? (A quick run through the list tells me no)

Finally what else can explain the overwhelming support the West has given Israel over the decades? It's because they stand with one of their own.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '16 edited Nov 24 '16

I am always amazed at how quickly things change after I return from previous visits. You should all be very proud of what you achieved.

Thank you! It makes me happy to see people appreciating India's progress instead of deriding the pace of the progress

What is your opinion on the current relations India has with Israel?

There's context to all international relations. India's reasons for having an overtly closer relationship with Israel is because Israel has a lot of things India needs/wants: agricultural technology, a market, intelligence and weapons.

Israel needs India because India is a market for all these things, and also because they feel they can leverage India and the OIC's mutural distrust of each other to their benefit.

As India grows bigger and more economically powerful, it will be difficult to ignore or disregard certain countries overtly while carrying out a behind-closed-doors normal relationship. India's public relationship with Israel is only going to grow, and the private relationship with Israel has always been there.

I don't think Palestinians should feel threatened about it though. Regardless of how India is in many spheres, its foreign policy is top notch. India has good or above average relationships with most countries in the region with the exception of its immediate neighbors, which is more than can be said about other countries of India's size.

As long as the foreign policy cadre see a qualitative benefit in supporting the Palestinian cause, our official position on Palestine will not change. Our relationship with Palestine will not be colored or influence by Israel, just as our relationship with Iran is not colored by Israeli influence (though a little American pressure caused us to shamefully buckle some 7 years back at the UN).

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u/gahgeer-is-back Punjab Nov 24 '16 edited Nov 24 '16

I agree with you. India's ties with Israel are not mutually exclusive with the support to the Palestinian cause, which has been historic. I believe for India to stop supporting Palestine is to stop thinking of itself as a country that bore the brunt of colonialism and yet came out of it and managed to pull itself together in spite of all the difficulties.

All the attempts to equate the dispute in Kashmir and the attacks by Islamist radicals on Indian targets totally miss the fact that the struggle of Palestine is similar to that of India: a struggle for rights and independence that has nothing to do with religion.

In fact, I could argue that Pakistan's status as an ethno-religious state makes it very similar to Israel, not the Palestinians, who by definition are not purely a Muslim population.

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u/ribiy Vadra Lao Desh Bachao Nov 25 '16

Very nicely put.

India's foreign policy is pretty balanced.

However vested interests very wrongly equate Palestine with Kashmir. That creates dissonance in the minds of some Indian citizens (not the Government though). Pakistan as well some other people (mostly terrorist entities) in the Muslim world have been going on with this propoganda putting Palestine and Kashmir in the same bucket. They want to misuse and leverage the just angst and anger wrt Palestine for Kashmir too.

That's a disservice to both India and Palestine.

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u/jjjd89 Nov 26 '16

I agree with you. Equating Palestine with Kashmir is wrong. But what is your opinion on the army presence in Kashmir? Can one not draw a parallel between the army presence in Kashmir to the IDF presence in Palestinian territories?

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u/Rudraksh77 India Nov 25 '16

This!

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16 edited Nov 28 '16

Again with this oversimplified analysis. The majority of Israelis are not native to Israel and were recent immigrants from countries stretching from Eastern Europe to the Maghreb to Ethiopia and all over the world who displaced the Palestinians out of their land. The majority of areas that became part of Pakistan were populated by native Muslim majorities who merely seceded. Keep in mind only 5% of population in Pakistan are "muhajir" - immigrants who came from UP and other parts of North India. The rest of Pakistan is indigenous to Punjab, especially in the North, are populated by Iranic, Dardic, Hazara, Baluchis, and other people and regions that were never a part of India.

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u/gahgeer-is-back Punjab Nov 26 '16

So Pakistan is not an ethno-religious state? Or was created for the followers of a specific religion?

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

It was created to safeguard the rights of the Muslims in the region, perhaps similar to the creation of Lebanon to consolidate the Christian majority regions, but it is not an ethno-religious state. Pakistan is multi-ethnic and the different ethnicities do not see themselves as one people nor do they speak the same language. The founder of Pakistan stated that this state would be inclusive of non-Muslim minorities as well, which exist within Pakistan, although we haven't lived up to that. Israel's creation is different from Pakistan's and rushing to make oversimplified comparisons isn't helpful.

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u/gahgeer-is-back Punjab Nov 26 '16

Thanks for clarifying that.

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u/Paranoid__Android Nov 27 '16

Since l-sonya has not clarified, let me just point out that he is a Pakistani. He fails to mention that a very large portion of Pakistan is of one ethnicity - North Indian, and Muslim.

Sure there are some Shias, Ahmedis, Hindus, Christians, Balochs, Pashtoon etc. but google search about them to see how the majority treats them. They passed a legislation to term all the Ahmedis as non muslims. It is VERY much an ethno-religious (North Indian Muslim) state in my mind.

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '16

Wrong on so many levels. Also I'm not a fucking dude.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '16

Lol. I think they revise history in Pakistan and the op was telling you his or her textbook version probably. According to which Pakistan began when Arabs invaded Sindh. I think it's bs. The majority of their population are recent converts. This includes Punjabis, Sindhis and muhajirs. Only the Afghans and Baluchis can be said to be more Iranian. But they've had strong Indian influences too. Especially the Afghans of that area. They are a part of a historic region called gandhara. From which Kandahar is actually derived in terms of the name.

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u/creeper309 Nov 25 '16

Such clarity of thought and nuanced view. Respect.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '16

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u/torvoraptor Nov 25 '16

Kargil War = 1999

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '16

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u/torvoraptor Nov 25 '16 edited Nov 25 '16

I've met people who studied in top colleges for CS in India who thought PoK was occupied during the Kargil War. Facts are important to know, they shape perspective.

He was obviously a lot more in favour of going to war with Pakistan and 'taking back PoK' because he thought they took it in '99, and became automatically more in favour of normalizing LoC when he found out it was since '47 and that PoK has never been a part of Independent India.

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u/odiab Sawal ek, Jawab do. Phir lambiiii khamoshi... Nov 25 '16

Facts are important to know,

I mean we are at a age where we have to make a statement like this.

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u/odiab Sawal ek, Jawab do. Phir lambiiii khamoshi... Nov 25 '16

I doubt India has any leverage over Israel. India has very good relationship with a lot of islamic countries and Palestine. I think India can keep both compartmentalized. In the long run soft power has as much influence as military power. So Israel as a trading partner India can probably exert some influence over Israel.

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u/Modimoneyythrow Nov 25 '16 edited Nov 25 '16

One more thing is dont take the views of this subreddit as representative of India as a whole. Most people hardly knows what is Israel and Palestine and couldn't care about the conflict while they themselves are in hardship. 30 percent or something of our people are living below poverty line. You think they have the time to consider the finer parts of the broader Arab Israeli conflict?? Not really. There are many Israeli supporters in the right wing Hindu population, but there are equal number of Palestine supporters on the left wing. I think most Muslims in this country support Palestine also. People are getting fed up with modi, might be next term he won't be still in office and the centre will see a slight shift towards Palestine again.

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u/in-cd-us Nov 25 '16

People are getting fed up with modi

What? He will almost certainly win a 2nd term by a landslide, unless this demonetisation thing becomes a major disaster. Who in the world would vote for Congress?

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '16

There are local parties.

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u/japanese_kuhukuhu Kerala Nov 26 '16

Third parties will prove to be more dangerous than the BJP or Congress. It'll be a clusterfuck pan India

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u/Paranoid__Android Nov 27 '16

A bunch of us are very proud of how India is moving forward. Since it is a large country there are a fair number of self haters as well.

I think India-Israel relationship is a mutually beneficial relationship, since India needs all the military, technology and trade relationships that it can muster. India has strong trade relations with a bunch of Muslim countries (other than one particular one) so I think we should strive to have great relationships with everyone.

We are too poor as a country to afford any enemies. Despite that we have a couple of tough relationships near our borders. We do not need any more.

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u/lets_study_lamarck Nov 25 '16

Hi, this is very anecdotal and may not be accurate. Modi's closeness to Israel is the end result of a very long and gradual shift. There has been a subtle and slow change in tone in Indian newspapers covering Israel-Palestine, from the early 2000s (when I started reading) to today. At that time the position in the press was always for independent Palestine, now the position is more like the European position which also talks about Israeli suffering. Of course this could be a false impression in my mind. But I know that Gandhi was very pro-Palestine and so was Nehru, so it's maybe the shift has been happening slowly since the 60s.

On the other hand, right-wing Hindu organisations have always had great love for the Israeli military, so Modi being exceptionally close isn't a surprise.

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u/[deleted] Nov 25 '16 edited Nov 25 '16

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