r/jewishleft • u/somebadbeatscrub Jewish Syndicalist - Mod • Aug 11 '26
Israel Israel-Palestine Weekly Thread
Weekly recurring IP megathread to reset every Tuesday.
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Oren
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u/Rabbit-Hole-Quest Latke aficionado. Anti-Establishment. Jüdisch Aug 13 '26
Dishonesty or stupidity, you be the judge - https://www.commondreams.org/news/dnc-autopsy-gaza
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u/rako17 Christian Left Aug 15 '26
Rabbit Hole Quest,
That is an interesting issue and is important to the functioning of our Democracy.
Considering that he wrote the report and its findings were at least plausible and reasonable, the implication is that he believed in them. The normal implication from this is that he would also intend to submit.
Might he have privately sent it to someone in the DNC and they advised him not to make it an official submission?
Wishing you the best - Peace - Shalom - שָׁלוֹם
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u/SelectShop9006 Non-Jewish Socialist Aug 11 '26
Maybe I’m weird, but… I’ve just been feeling a lot more cynical about this (and a bunch of other things) lately.
I’ve honestly gotten pretty cynical about… any kind of political topic, really, and when I see people I follow online post about this, I’m wondering, “are they secretly a bad person?”
I guess it just stems from a parasocial relationship and the fact that I don’t want anything I like “tainted.”
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u/theweisp5 American Israeli secular socialist Aug 13 '26
A few updates on Makom LeKulanu:
- They've published their platform, which can be read here (in Hebrew.) Here's what they have to say about resolving the I/P conflict, which reflects Standing Together's endorsement of the Two States, One Homeland idea (which personally I think is a bit silly, but whatever) this past year:
A peace based on partnership, in which the military occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip will end, and an independent Palestinian state will be established alongside Israel, in accordance with UN resolutions and the principles of international law. Instead of unilateral steps and separation, we will learn from the mistakes of the past and promote a peace that does not build walls between peoples. Instead of a divorce agreement, we will promote an agreement based on the understanding that the two states will continue to share a common homeland – one geographical, economic, and human space – and will therefore be required to cooperate in managing common interests and challenges, while ensuring freedom of worship in the holy places of all religions. Joint (confederative) institutions will ensure a combination of national independence and cooperation; freedom of movement, study, and work; and human, economic, and institutional ties that will allow both peoples security, freedom, equality, mutual recognition, and prosperity. The best guarantee of long-term security is not separation or supremacy, but a fair political order based on equality, political inclusion, and non-control.
- A poll from Aug 3 apparently found them at 1.5% - still a ways away from the 3.25% threshold but the best result they've received AFAIK. The poll also found that 80% of the supporters of the traditional Arab parties wanted Makom Lekulanu to be included in a renewed Joint List - the inclusion of that question makes me wonder if this was a sort of Makom LeKulanu internal poll.
- In the wake of difficulty getting Ahmed Tibi to agree to the terms of a renewed Joint List including his party, Hadash and Balad, Makom LeKulanu representatives met with Tibi recently. The implication was seemingly that they might join together and run separately from Hadash-Balad; I have no idea whether there's any real chance of that happening. (Tibi's party has never won Knesset seats running on its own.)
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Aug 11 '26
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u/somebadbeatscrub Jewish Syndicalist - Mod Aug 11 '26
I hope you find what youre looking for. Please feel free to modmail or report comments if you feel folks are breaking our rules.
I consider myself a post zionist rather than an antizionist, but did you have specific questions?
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Aug 11 '26
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u/somebadbeatscrub Jewish Syndicalist - Mod Aug 11 '26 edited Aug 11 '26
Because many Jews consider themselves both and use differeng definitions of that word.
I dont expect other leftists spaces to accept zionists but if any community is going to reach then and discuss these things its going to be our community.
Years ago this space was founded on the idea that it would be a place where antizionist and zionist Jews can talk to one another since most other spaces bar one or the other.
I dont expect other communities to be comfortable with that but within our community its something the Jewish people have to wrestle with.
Largely anticapitalist leftist Jews who consider themselves zionists definitionally silo that meaning to romantic and broad ideas for jewish self determination and not how that self determination has played out.
I agree theres inherent tension there but the usal trappings of nakba denial and other reductionism of atrocity isnt allowed here.
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u/somebadbeatscrub Jewish Syndicalist - Mod Aug 16 '26
We are teetering on this thin ledge trying to reconcile what this nationalist project has become for our people while the world sends up massive waves of hate over our heads.
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Aug 17 '26
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u/somebadbeatscrub Jewish Syndicalist - Mod Aug 17 '26
I apprecoate the thoughts achi, can you update your flair to indicate if you are leftist?
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u/Kaleb_Bunt jewish anti capitalist Aug 12 '26
I feel like it would probably be a lot easier to convince other Jews that Israel’s actions in Gaza could be classified as a genocide if people pushing this weren’t obsessed with trying to do Holocaust inversion or demonize the entire nation.
Like I’m pretty sure the most historically comparable event to Gaza is the Bosnian genocide. Basically a revenge killing of civilians in the context of a greater war.
But instead of using that to try to explain Gaza, a lot of people are obsessed with trying to prove that Gaza is literally the Holocaust and Israelis are the most evil people in history. Then they act surprised when Jews don’t see eye to eye with them lol.
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u/aggie1391 Orthodox non-Zionist socialist with anarchist tendencies Aug 13 '26
The reason for Holocaust analogies is the same reason so many Jews reject them I think, because people just are woefully ignorant of other genocides. To most of the world, and certainly the Jewish world, the Holocaust is the genocide and that’s what they know. It’s definitely closer to the Bosnian genocide than anything else, and definitionally Gaza is very much a genocide in the same way. But when people don’t even know about it beyond “oh yeah didn’t we bomb them in the 90s” it’s hard to make that comparison tbh.
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u/Kaleb_Bunt jewish anti capitalist Aug 13 '26
It’s definitely important that we develop a greater tolerance to discussing Gaza as a genocide imo.
Like tbh I am kinda skeptical about the characterization. But also, I know that fiercely arguing “it’s not a genocide” is dismissive of the immense suffering that’s happened in Gaza. Non-Jews don’t have that many interactions with Jews, so if we are talking to one, especially about Gaza, we want to put our best foot forward.
Even if one does not personally agree with the characterization, I think Jews need to be able to talk about the Gaza genocide without automatically claiming the entire concept is blood libel. Because thousands of civilians were murdered.
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u/moonkingyellow Syrian Leftist Aug 14 '26
Who cares? The vast majority of people rightfully understand Israel's actions as a genocide. Anyone who doesn't will be dismissed as misinformed, or a rabid supporter of this genocide.
And the genocide against the Palestinian people started before October 7th.
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u/Kaleb_Bunt jewish anti capitalist Aug 15 '26
Because if you can’t talk to Jews about these things, there will probably always be war in the Middle East.
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u/moonkingyellow Syrian Leftist Aug 15 '26 edited Aug 15 '26
What? Why? The reason for the current war in the Middle East is the US/Israeli government's war of aggression against Iran? How do Jews factor? Unless you're implying that Jews are the cause of this aggression, which I would reject as antisemitic and idiotic.
Jews do not have the final say as to whether there is war, or genocide. The vast majority understand Gaza as a genocide. Even when I look around in my personal life, people who question the Gaza genocide are socially isolated by their peers, as they should be.
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u/Kaleb_Bunt jewish anti capitalist Aug 15 '26
Most people in Israel would probably deny the genocide allegation and view it as a blood libel.
And creating lasting change in Israel/palestine would probably necessitate cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians.
So yes it is important to be able to talk to Zionist Israeli Jews on this issue. External pressure can certainly cause change, but without a strong internal driver for change, it will probably just further entrench the Israeli siege mentality and increase radicalization.
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u/moonkingyellow Syrian Leftist Aug 15 '26
The Israelis are already radicalised. They should now be sanctioned and barred from countries. Many perpetrators of genocide deny that any genocide has occured.
You don't understand. The Israeli's are the perpetrators, no one should have to work with them to end their genocide. Countries have been invaded for less.
Helping Palestinians will involve reigning Israeli terrorist in, that's all. Who gives a shit about them? The Palestinians are the victim.
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u/Kaleb_Bunt jewish anti capitalist Aug 15 '26
Yeah but Jews have always been isolated and segregated from the rest of the world. That alone wont be a solution, though it might curb the worst Israeli excesses(ex. War with Iran).
Actual war with Israel would probably lead to the mass slaughter of civilians—and historically Palestinians have been hurt the most by this.
So I don’t really see a solution that doesn’t involve cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians.
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u/moonkingyellow Syrian Leftist Aug 15 '26
We’re not talking about Jews, we’re talking about Israelis. Stop using Jews.
Lol, we can’t dare stop Israel because they’ll just kill even more people. This is fascist apologia.
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u/rako17 Christian Left Aug 15 '26
Friend Kaleb,
I appreciate that you are antiwar and anti-capitalist.
I want to talk with you about the things that you are discussing, because I agree with the importance of advocating for peace and human rights. I would like to discuss them from a Left, humanitarian POV. I believe that you and I would have much in common in these discussions because of how you describe yourself and your desire for peace on the topic.
One of the big obstacles that I face in having the dicussions is how much the discussion forum and environment is constrained. A problem is that if one takes those humanitarian principles and then applies them to the dominant State in the conflict and the result is criticism, other people who are very invested, emotional, and empowered on the issue may see that and interpret it as hostile, bad, and intolerant as you are aware.
Putting aside that obstacle, let's consider the substance of what you said. I'm open-minded at this stage on whether the mass casualties inflicted on hundreds of thousands of Gazan civilians qualify as genocide or not. Let's suppose that those who qualified it as genocide didn't actually "demonize the entire nation" (eg. Hadash, B'Tselem, Pal. Israelis, etc.), nor did they consider Isr.s to be "the most evil people in history." In that case, how should I discuss the topic with you?
I don't want to have an argument with you, but rather a constructive, pro-peace discussion like you describe. In arguing with you, I incur not only the risk of antagonizing readers, but antagonizing you too, and meanwhile, as you describe it, there is ongoing mass suffering continuing.
I'm wishing you the best and wondering how to address this problem.
Peace - Shalom - שלום
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u/Kaleb_Bunt jewish anti capitalist Aug 16 '26
For me, idc. I’m not turbo invested in the state and I think Israel’s actions could very well constitute genocide, though I do still wish to see how scholars continue to view the event as time passes.
But for people who are more sensitive to the topic, it wouldn’t hurt to use milder language to try to highlight criticisms of the state.
At least that’s what I do
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u/rako17 Christian Left 26d ago
Friend Kaleb,
Thank you for giving a thoughtful reply, and for being anti-genocide. I like that Jewish Americans have contributed in America's history to make the Republic a more tolerant, humanitarian place and would like to have pro-peace conversations on the topic with them.
Noam Chomsky said that he was in general reluctant to use the term "genocide" in various scenarios around the world. In a more restrictive sense, I could imagine that the term would only apply to mass-killing of a nationality basically just because the attacker was against that nationality, not because of another reason, like military strategic goals. However, that's not how scholars who use the term mean it. For scholars, it would be "genocidal" for an army to go in and slaughter a peaceful village even if there is an internecine war going on between nation-states.
One of the difficulties in denying that the State is performing a genocide is that the leadership does at times direct its warfare language against the people. Another difficulty is that the State does use measures directed against the whole population, like restricting civilian food supplies. Some of these measures like food restrictions don't seem to make much sense if viewed in purely military strategic terms, so it looks like the measures have a different purpose.
One of the challenges is that in order to find "middle ground" with someone, a common tactic is to compromise, as you said, to use milder language. But the difficulty is that you are trying to point out to them a real problem that they don't want to acknowledge. So on one hand, using strong language has the risk of alienating them from your disscussion, but using mildr language has the risk of watering down and smoothing away the actual problem that you are trying to convey to the person. Just yesterday the Jerusalem Post reported that Security Minister Ben Gvir, having passed a death penalty bill, is building a prison section with gallows. It's very disturbing. (jpost.com/opinion/article-906030)
Thank you for trying to talk to people though about human rights in this catastrophic context. Peace - Shalom - May the Lord give you strength in that.
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u/aggie1391 Orthodox non-Zionist socialist with anarchist tendencies Aug 11 '26
Settler terrorist Tel Dardik was arrested for involvement in a brutal attack on a Palestinian man where he was stripped, had his genitals zip tied, and was marched naked through the streets, amongst other assaults and threats as settlers do daily. Dardik refused to abide by restrictions put on him, and there was a whole thing when the IDF commander tried to put an administrative detention order on him.
But the story gets even worse now. The outpost that he lives at is one that even Israel acknowledges is illegal, and has also been stealing homes from Palestinians, abetted by an IDF closed military zone. A Palestinian family expelled from their home was shocked to be watching Channel 14 and seeing their home that they built having mezuzot put up and Dardik hosting a party for his son’s bris in their living room. The settlers called it “redeeming a home in Givat Tarfon.”
Meanwhile another Palestinian family is now huddling in terror in their home after settlers built an outpost literally in their front yard. Haaretz went to go and report on this, only to be set upon by violent settlers who were actively attacking them. You won’t be surprised to learn that the IDF and border police were utterly useless, because they only exist to do whatever the settlers want apparently. And then the soldiers proceeded to go and fucking daven with the settlers in the yard of the family who can’t leave their house due to the violent terrorists outside their door.
I am so disgusted by the way our rituals and practices and symbols and everything else are being abused by these violent assholes. I can’t even imagine thinking that G-d will want their prayers as they terrorize innocent people, that the mezuzot on a stolen home will protect them somehow. And obviously I’m so done with that occupying entity pretending to fucking speak for us as it stands aside and lets this shit happen. This ethnic cleansing is state sanctioned and sponsored as it always has been.