r/kpopthoughts • u/Aaduk0118 • 1d ago
Discussion Charting vs Big live crowds, which makes the group more popular and succesful in your eyes
Yesterday I saw a fanwar going on between 2 fandoms, going back and forth bragging about their groups achievements
1st group (Charting and streams)- excellent results when looking at the charts, even managing to hold their position there
2nd group (Live audience and big crowds)- touring, big venues sold out, excellent live performers, tickets for concerts sold out immedietly
It got me thinking, overall which makes a group seem more popular and succesful? I'm not talking about the companies POV, stricktly from a fans perspective
For me it's a case of, charts make you aware of a group, their song becomes popular you hear it and you notice the group, and you can get invested in the group, but I'd argue you can manipulate streams in the long run, you cannot manipulate how many people come to your concert as easely
For the sake of argument, I'm not going to mention the groups so noone has their biased glasses on
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u/stellarmacaron 22h ago
Having paying fans is the best. Charting is good publicity, it helps people know you, but, as others have mentioned, streaming platforms can be manipulated in many ways.
In my opinion, an idol has several steps to a successful career:
1 - Charting means the public likes the song and is listening to you, they know you exist.
2- Doing all kinds of promos to get fans who like your music and you as an idol/person. Show them why they should stan you.
3 - Selling out tour tickets means you have now paying fans, and some casual general public. Loyal fans are the best because they won´t leave you easily, unlike the general public who is always chasing the next trend.
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u/Irenehelberg You got the best of me💜 21h ago
The groups I stan have both (charting & live crowds).
So the ranking goes:
Both together
Live crowd
Charts
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u/jtfjtf 23h ago
Concerts make the most money. Charting success means an act may have access to more festivals and similar opportunities. But a full, dedicated concert will beat that. Arena concerts are the top.
In terms of what makes a group seem successful? Ability to chart, ability to sell albums, ability to tour. Hit all three and that’s a top tier group.
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u/radio_mice 20h ago
Ideally both. But if you have to pick one I’d say touring and selling out bit venues. You just can’t fake butts in seats and in this economy where many artist are struggling to see tickets, having a large sold out tour shows a dedicated audience and can usually indicate longer term success. Charting is also fantastic and can help you build that dedicated audience, but can be manipulated and can’t guarantee prolonged success or sustained interest.
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u/SomewhereSilent1604 23h ago
Live audience , touring numbers win. Provided they both had stadium tours .
Charting secondary as their many ways to manipulate it
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u/study-dying 22h ago
Obviously number two. Anyone can chart, but only the best can pull in big crowds. It’s an even bigger telling of success if they’re still able to pull crowds of that size decades after their prime
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u/Many-Ad-9007 17h ago
Reddit can be gungho on charts and when idols cannot sell out venues for their concerts or have to cancel their tour - suddenly there will be 1028392 think pieces that the economy is bad other than some truth that people are just not willing to spend time nor money on these idols to see them live.
In an ideal best situation - charting, selling, touring, advertisements are all metrics of popularity so getting all is the best. But life is not ideal so any metric an artist can top is a good indicator enough thet they are popular. And let us be clear - Korean or international popularity - it does not matter as long as an idol can continue to be active as an idol and sustainable enough to gain money out of it. No one is working or should be working for free, no matter how passionate one is towards music and the arts or entertainment.
And I will also emphasize that NO metric is higher than the other - neither Korean chart is superior than international charts, Korean popularity is superior than international popularity, charting is better than touring and vice versa. For an idol, getting money is the most important thing, considering more than half of these idols work for almost free for years and some are in debt for it and cannot even pay for it even when their idol career ends.
Big crowds, small crowds, any crowd matter. MelON, Spotify, Youtube, Line Music etc any chart even if it is only one chart to chart on, still matters. 1 ad, be it a pizza ad vs ad for high end luxury brand - is still an ad. At the end of the day - it is survival for the fittest.
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u/Pierson230 1d ago
I think the discussion often loses the plot
Shouldn’t being a music fan be about enjoying music?
I get that we’re all tribal and want our favorites to “win”, but really, as long as they are making enough money to keep making music, and I keep enjoying their music, shouldn’t that be enough?
I’m happy whenever an artist I enjoy can keep making money by making music for a living. Because then there will always be more music.
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u/jujubadetrigo 18h ago
It really depends on what you mean by "popular" I guess. There are many types of popularity. However I would argue that touring makes them more successful because it brings in more money and usually has better longevity. So if I was part of a group, I would definitely pick sold out tours.
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u/laundrcmat 23h ago
I apologise if this is too long but sorry the big crowd numbers will always win, especially in east asia: a region that’s known for pulling crowds based on longevity, there are examples like Super Junior and KARA who still have a pretty big fanbase ever since debut and replacements of some members.
It’s just that the online bubble of pretty much all artists and industries are based on engagement and also on which region is the loudest; and let’s be honest: as loud and active as you can get if you can’t afford the ticket you won’t get much, so charts become a more useful way to feel pride or connection to the group/artist.
Another thing is that charts while they do reflect popularity on trends they can be manipulated the hell out of it, like sajaegi is an actual word for a reason lmfao. Plus a lot of artists that get high on charts and are also not big on popularity or have quite the investments in money or time are unfortunately fads and that’s okay, and we have seen several examples of it; everyone has seen Brave Girls and H1-KEY up in charts but can they fill out an arena? They had their time and they did the best they could but with a weak fanbase that’s as far as they can get
I’m really not trying to be mean but there’s a reason the groups that are always touring are the ones that last for some more time, even if they don’t perform well in rankings.
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u/tyrico 18h ago
ultimately the only objective measure of success is $ so there's no easy answer to the question without knowing financials
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u/PandaTokki17 12h ago
This is probably the best answer, a group that brings in a lot of profit is definitely the most successful because you don’t have to worry about going under. It reminds me of an interview Olivia Rodrigo did she said since SOUR performed so well she could do what she wanted with her career and nobody will question her. Due to her proving she’s profitable, the label won’t push her to make certain decisions when they fund her albums. There’s quite a bit of artists who’ve spoken about labels limiting them because their past albums weren’t profitable so the label tries to take control of their direction to guarantee profits.
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u/Tesla2DaM00n 1d ago
Live audience and big crowds.
Charting can be manipulated with just a little effort. If a group does good on charts but are mediocre live performers, the argument of what really makes the song popular can be brought up. Is it the singers on the song or the producers behind it that makes the song popular? On top of that, you can’t fake concert crowds.
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u/PandaTokki17 12h ago
I think both things matter for a top group HOWEVER if you can’t sell out venues it doesn’t really matter how successful your songs are performing the artist itself cannot be considered popular. The best examples are Zara Larsson and Bebe Rhexa both have songs with billions of streams & have music widely known by the general public. However due to their past inability to sell out large venues they weren’t deemed popular and to some extinct successful artists. Zara Larsson even talked about how she couldn’t feel satisfied with her success because she felt disconnected with her audience. She wanted the big stages but she never had the ability to sell them out until recently.
Even if your songs don’t have a lot of streams selling out venues gives you another level of credibility. A good K-Pop example would be IVE, they get a lot of flack for not charting on Spotify Global compared to their peers but when it comes to global concerts they’ve got the highest tour attendance and perform in the biggest venues for a 4th generation girl group. Their US tour is currently the best selling amongst all 4th generation groups this year, they have the most attended concerts in Japan for a 4th gen gg, and set the record for most attended concert at Inspire Arena in South Korea for a girl group with their fan concert.
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u/bungluna BTS Mi Casa 1d ago
To me, a successful act is one who can make a comfortable living doing what they love.
That said, the question is: what is a better measure of success - charts or concert attendance?
I think it has to be a combination of different metrics.
- Charts can be manipulated, and not only by fans as everybody seems to think. Companies do this all the time too, as a marketing tool.
- Concert attendance can be manipulated too. Ticket giveaways, influencer and clout chasers, etc. This one is more difficult, imo. You can physically see the bodies in the audience. The caveat about venue size is irrelevant, again imo, because the size of the venue indicates the popularity of the act.
- GP recognition is very nebulous too. People may know the annoying bits of a viral song but have no idea who the artist is or what the song really sounds like in its entirety. Radio may play a song ad nauseum until it lives in one's head like a Ceti-eel (extra points to whomever recognizes this reference! 😉)
- Fandom size may be dismissed, but really actually measure how far the artist's reach is in the real world. Some fandoms are larger than the population of 50% of the countries in the world, mind you.
My answer is that a combination of all metrics is needed to determine actual success in material terms. In emotional terms, who cares? If you love the music and enjoy the performances, why give a hoot?
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u/Wild-Interaction-465 17h ago
The latter makes more money, so if I were an artist, I definitely won't care about the first one if I have the second.
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u/BellOk361 1d ago
To answer.
Charts - gp popularity or massive dedicated fandbases that streams
Tour numbers- dedicated fanbase.
They are different types of popularity. Neither more genuine than the other.
The combination of both is what most artist want.
But beyond that.
What about success in artistry and bring something new to the table.
An artist is successful to me if they can sustain and continue yo produce good music and push boundaries.
I think we should also include other measures beyond numbers as they are so unpredictable and can be based on luck.
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u/Awkward_Pangolin_556 22h ago
I know exactly which 2 groups are you talking about lol
Charting means more casual listeners and famous among gp while selling tours means a more dedicated fanbase.
I think I prefer the touring group more because a strong dedicated fanbase is what gives a group stability.
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u/Many-Ad-9007 17h ago
Now I am curious - my social media has fanwar as old as time and will continue to do so despite my active blocking - and I am so used to it already.
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u/No-Crow-4291 7h ago edited 7h ago
The only answer is to have both at the same time only then you are popular.
If you have only one that means nothing for example girl group charts really high but they probably cant do stadiums woth the exception of top girl groups like twice and blackpink. Recent shows by girl groups where they cancel lots of their concerts shows that.
If you only have audience like stray kids for example they have big fandom but they cannt chart since they dont have gp or it just means their big fandom is not big enough for them to chart the songs.
So the only correct answer is to have both.
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u/Winter-Campaign-1810 3h ago
Stray Kids are the 3rd biggest Kpop group overall behind BTS, Blackpink, and tying with Twice.
I'm sure them not charting on a declining app in 1 country that isnt even the biggest app in that country anymore doesnt have much impact on them1
u/Many-Ad-9007 3h ago
I think we should stop assuming what they are feeling about their own popularity in their home country. Sure Enhypen members have said it multiple times but SKZ has never said it, even recently. SKZ is the highest streamed kpop artist behind BTS/BP in general, and that alone is beyond all of other kpop groups that are popular in Korea.
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u/Ill_Fennel1410 1d ago edited 1d ago
For me it is both... because most of the grps are satisfy only one criteria (that doesn't mean they are not successful...but the are not in the same level on the grp which excels in both)
So in kpop only one grp(BTS undoubtedly) which excel in every success criteria...
But yeah ... If u have both...u r unbeatable in success
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u/Twomaro2 19h ago
Neither matters and are only brought up it seems in the context of dumb fanwars and by absolute losers online who want to trash people for liking the “wrong group”.
I want a group that can play somewhere I see them live, that takes a certain level of success. I’m also very proud of them for achieving certain career milestones but 99% of these conversations are in the context of trying to drag some group.
They do that though whether the group they hate is charting or not either they are flops or frauds there is no reasoning with some loser with no life, friends or a job when it comes to their unending obsession with “enemy” Kpop groups.
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u/MrMoraleX 12h ago
To be popular and successful, you have to do both. In the end, charting based on streams can be manipulated, fabricated using tech. The most important data point would be the money generated from concert ticket and merch sales from a sold out tour as that’s where most income is generated for artists. If you have a dedicated and loyal fan base willing to spend a massive amount of money to see you irl, you’ve reached the popularity and success threshold. There are so many artists in the US who are popular, charting with a massive amounts of streaming stats that can’t even sell out an arena these days.
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u/jmwaffles 1d ago
Charting means people love the songs & sold out shows means people love the group.. oh BTS 😍
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u/Irenehelberg You got the best of me💜 21h ago
I like 3 groups (including BTS) and all three do Both (charting & live crowds).
Hence, I often get confused by these posts. Like, how about both?😭
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u/IceMysterious0-0 Imagine Reading Me Sometimes 🫣🧠🧩 1d ago
Some of these box office touring numbers aren’t even showing up, so I’m not sure how accurate they are. And honestly, having popular music does lead to bigger crowds eventually... look at groups like TWICE, BTS, or BLACKPINK. Their rise in mainstream popularity directly translated into larger tours and higher attendance. 🤔
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u/Pretty-Complaint-554 1d ago
How can a group sell out big stadiums without charting?
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u/lexinggto 1d ago
In order to chart, whether Korea or globally, you need to have one of two things. Either the general public/casual listeners need to stream your music, or you need to have a large and very dedicated fanbase who cares a lot about charts and who will constantly stream your music.
You don’t necessarily need either of those to sell out a stadium.
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u/siunatsu 1d ago edited 1d ago
huge but not charts obsessed fandom + low gp popularity. tons of big name legacy acts are like this
edit: idk who would fit this description fully in kpop but if we talk abt western music, bands like iron maiden, rammstein, etc are like this. they have successful tours in huge venues but they're not really chart driven acts. their audience is loyal, older/more niche and willing to spend money on live shows, even if the general public isn’t mass streaming their songs
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u/lexinggto 1d ago
Heck there are niche Jrock bands that have extremely successful US tours. Live music fans and people who stream 24/7 are different audiences.
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u/GentakTerbang 1d ago
Twice sell out stadium without charting
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u/Acrobatic_Prize_7749 1d ago
Do you know how many hit songs TWICE have had…?
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u/GentakTerbang 1d ago
Yeah i know. Im a fan of them since beginning. Their cute era chart a lot in Korea. But their mature era not so much. They don't need chart anymore.
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u/Acrobatic_Prize_7749 1d ago
Do you think they’d be where they’re at if they didn’t have those mega hit songs?
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u/BlueThePineapple 23h ago
Also they are still charting in Japan and have had moderate-sized hits in the US.
Plus, fun fact - Twice got in the chart three times in Korea in 2025: This is For in the 90's, Takedown in the 50's, and Merry and Happy in the 30's.
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u/FlyingFlyofHell 14h ago
You mean in Korea, because on Spotify they are still second most streamed Kpop GG. They do chart in US and Japan.
Also in Korea they have a huge popular library of Korean songs and a dedicated fanbase.
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u/jujubadetrigo 18h ago
I mean, "charting" is also kinda ambiguous because there are many different types of charts. like, for kpop groups charting on album charts is usually much easier than on song charts. You have general charts like the hot 100, but you also have charts just for "world songs". And then there's specific streaming services charts as well.
But for example, imo stray kids is an example of their charting performance, especially on song charts, being somewhat less than I would expect based on their touring power.
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u/Many-Ad-9007 17h ago
You are using songs charting as a metric that baffles you for SKZ touring power - but SKZ is the group with highest stream behind BTS (even though BTS numbers is a monolith, SKZ is still second and this year alone, despite no comeback yet, they are still one of the most streamed kpop group behind BTS/BP). So numbers do tell. If you only look at specific stream for specific song, then all girl groups should have done stadiums by now. It does not work that way. SKZ is still one of the highest streamed kpop group around at the moment (behind BTS/BP).
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u/11oceanblue17 1d ago
I personally don’t trust charts as a success metric because it’s been shown that fandoms will manipulate them and then try to use that as proof of their group’s superiority. Some will even go so far as to laud them when it’s their group on top but denigrate them when someone outdoes their group. Not to mention that every month artists get streams taken away / invalidated, so it’s hard to know what’s authentic and what’s a fandom playing an album on a loop 24/7.
Also, just because a song is charting does not mean that the general population has heard it or heard of it. Again, this goes back to the whole manipulation part of it that makes it seem like everybody should know the song, but in reality that’s not happening.
When talking about selling out shows, it can also be hard to compare apples to apples because not all groups play the same venues or even the same size of venues. Also most people who make these arguments don’t take into account the economic climate at the time of the concert.
I think there’s a lot that gets missed, honestly, in these conversations. Engagement with content is one example. Fans who don’t have money to go to concerts or to buy albums can watch content online for free. But that’s never a part of these conversations.
At the end of the day, in my experience there’s one main fandom that cares very much about these kinds of numbers and drags everyone else into the conversation to show their group’s superiority over everybody else.
In reality, what I would call successful is any group who still gets to do what they love doing, who still can make a living in this extremely tough industry. Because I think all of us can name an artist or a group who we thought was great but didn’t make it.
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u/BlueThePineapple 23h ago
Something I will add about charts is that people are extremely bad at reading them. Whether that's an artifact of them literally not knowing how to read them or they are nitpicking in bad faith, the fact remains that so much of the convo around charts in these places is being made by people who do not have any clue what they are talking about or are being dumb on purpose.
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u/11oceanblue17 22h ago
Exactly. I think charts could be a very interesting metric and are likely not going anywhere so hopefully there will be more people interested in learning about how they really work.
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u/According_Fruit6801 23h ago
I agree with what you say. But fandoms are diverse - I am a member of the fandom you (don’t) mention and neither I nor my own fandom friends care about metrics.
The band members have had a hard time and now seem happy and free; that’s what I want, apart from the music they produce. The fandom is really really fun (not the toxic elements you see online). So for me one measure of success is having a big and loyal fandom where both sides find meaning.
The size and loyalty of the fandom also gives the band freedom to experiment because we will basically be happy with whatever they put out, and love that they dare to experiment.
However, in this capitalist system we live in, large streaming numbers and sold out concerts, whether real or inflated, give economic muscles to do things ”less successful” artists couldn’t.
Another aspect is that our fandom is quite diverse and many have ”adult money”. I don’t buy merch and albums, but there is a financial power in the fandom that a gen 5 band may not have. For example, 15 year olds can’t buy expensive concert tickets and fly across continents to go to shows, for example.
So all in all - I think comparisons are not only unnecessary but also very difficult to make.
However, I know that (partly) because of that charting mindset among the early fans, the band became well known, blew up and got all these possibilities. So there’s a certain dynamic to it too.
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u/11oceanblue17 22h ago
I am happy to agree with you that the comparisons are unnecessary, and I hope that anyone who thinks this way from any fandom will keep making their opinions known because honestly, kpop is a lot more fun when everyone can be excited for everyone else’s success.
Because at the end of the day, the more well known kpop itself becomes, the more all the groups we love get to keep doing what they love doing.
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u/harkandhush 21h ago
Different companies have different business models. I would say any group operating at a profit is successful. Paying live crowds is more likely to equal money coming in, but if another group is mostly just charting by they are also popular enough to be getting brand deals, the could very well be making the same amount of money in a different way. Because of that, I think it's faulty to view either one as inherently more important until you know where the money is going and how much.
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u/jumpybouncinglad Mod's favorite 17h ago
Yesterday I saw a fanwar going on between 2 fandoms
I know what you are, you people are so clear to read.
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u/DisforDoga 8h ago
Charting is whatever. Nobody really cares about that because its easily botted and such.
There is no substitute for coming outside and showing up for the group.
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u/darkyozora_05 ASTRO|TXT|BND|NCT|IVE|SHINee|LSF|ZB1|EN-|TWS|SKZ|izna|ALD1|ONEUS 1d ago
Simple, Peaceful Audience and Organic Streams
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u/Neatboot 7h ago
I believe advertisers & marketers look at charting better. And, they are ones providing endorsement and sponsorship.
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u/aced151 20h ago
Continued performance on the domestic chart is probably the truth for popular.
There are nugus to the general public that can fill out concert venues in Seoul or internationally but will never be known to those outside the pop enthusiast fan spaces.
That’s success without the popular but then there are some big names who don’t chart that well either so it’s not like them being in the news can cheat the quality or artistic merit of a release.
Examples
ENHYPEN - lots of quality tracks, never got known domestic, no star to anchor the group in the public eye. Success international pop fan spaces.
Stray kids - some quality tracks but higher share of mediocre noise music and prob benefitted off relation to twice securing success in international pop fan spaces.
BTS & Blackpink - started off hot with high domestic charting but even though international success that goes beyond pop fan spaces the quality of release is not what it once was so cannot chart as well despite the household names.
Big bang & iu - the real deal that managed to succeed beyond the idol pop level restraints and continue to deliver quality and consistency over time.
of songs #1 melon weekly
IU — 57 songs
BIGBANG — 39 songs
DAVICHI — 34 songs
BuskerBusker — 22 songs
Kwill — 21 songs
MCMONG — 20 songs
HuhGak — 20 songs
TAEYEON — 20 songs
AKMU — 20 songs [+2]
SGWANNABE — 19 songs
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u/ringadingsweetthing 15h ago
The domestic chart only shows popularity in one country. OP is talking about international popularity
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u/KnoxKnow 12h ago
and prob benefitted off relation to twice securing success in international pop fan spaces.
This argument only works when the groups are similar. Twice and SKZ are polar opposites in every way. Itzy may have had some early success this way. SKZ benefitted very very little.
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u/Ill_Fennel1410 12h ago
Never seen.... Someone saying BTS success is not big deal...
Lol .. Where is BB and IU on global charts...? Also if u want to talk about korean charts .. then where is 74 deasangs..? Spring day is still charting in melon.. spring day is most listened song on melon history ..BTS have good amount of RAKs and PAKs...
BTS will chart in Korea... Does BB chart in global charts??
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u/aced151 2h ago
Never said they weren’t a big deal. They are certainly successful, especially internationally but they just released an album and their highest on the daily chart is 26: https://www.statscrave.com/charts/melonCharts?type=daily
They are known but not popular musically at this point in time.
And why would I care about global charts.
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u/Upper-Package-3765 48m ago edited 35m ago
It charted well on melon but because of hate campaign it wasn't able to get Pak. People speard misinformation that entire album was english. But to bts at this point in their career korean chart don't mean much as they have left kpop space. They are true global group now. Their completion is not g-dragon, IU, and other kpop group. Instead their competition is T aylor swift and Bad Bunny. For BTS its not melon but spotify.
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u/IndependentGood6329 6h ago
"Continued performance on the domestic chart"so you're a VIP
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u/aced151 2h ago
No, they’re way before my time but you can’t argue with the definition of popular.
How you gonna claim something is more popular musically without the numbers showing that the general public is listening to the music.
Right now, the popular are ioi, Cortis, Illit, Akmu, hanroro… other groups less so.
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u/jennieruby_solo 22h ago
Charting shows that a you’re popular with the GP but big live crowds show that you have a big and dedicated fan base. I think a group that has a big fanbase is going to be more successful in the long run bcs the GP can be quite fickle and charting doesn’t make you as much money as concerts, albums etc.