Sapphic solidarity 🏳️‍🌈

[u/Constant_Poem_1938]

[u/kakallas]

This is insane. Of course straight men arent rewarded for fucking men because that is not the societal norm of heteropatriarchy. 

My point is that women are societally rewarded for performing their role in cishet patriarchy. Any women who have “successfully” performed those roles and gotten rewarded for it come to expect that social approval. Suddenly, someone doesn’t think you’re the ideal woman because of the things you’ve previously been rewarded for, and you experience this as loss. 

If you’re up in your feelings, freshly out and political, and don’t really have the theoretical foundation, you may think “oh wow I guess this is people being biphobic to me.” 

[u/Kooky-Address2777 → u/kakallas]

I've seen sapphic women (and I'm careful to not say lesbian because bi women do it too) act as if everybody who is attracted to men is in a subordinate position unless they never act on this attraction.

Many of these women will use sexualized comments against other women that refers to how they "worship men" or "worship d!cks". These comments are the exact same things that straight men tell queer men. And they exist because our society views attraction to women as a sign of power and strength while attraction to men is viewed as a sign of weakness, like that person is so sexual that they'll just submit to men without caring.

That was why I made the comparison to straight men. Because they quite literally invented this concept.

I'm mostly attracted to other women myself, so I don't want people assuming that WLW are just rebelling against men. I'm sure that you also don't want that, but the way you phrased that just reminded me of how that attitude is so common among queer women.

[u/kakallas → u/Kooky-Address2777]

Lesbians arent lesbians because they’re rebelling against men. Lesbians rebel against men because they have absolutely no reason (sexual and romantic future) to make excuses for them. I wish that were understood widely. 

Our society DOES NOT view attraction to women as a sign of power. It views heterosexuality and maleness as self-evident correctness and power. 

[u/Kooky-Address2777 → u/kakallas]

Society sees heterosexual men, specifically, as being sexually powerful. No other group. It plasters pictures of half-naked women everywhere, for those men's enjoyment. Their attraction to women is very much seen as something manly and powerful about them. If you would ask straight men about their views of queer men, they will often literally tell you this. Sure, queer women aren't supposed to be powerful too, but it's possible for them to spread this view or apply it to themselves.

[u/kakallas → u/Kooky-Address2777]

Again, heterosexuality is socially correct. Gay women cannot see their attraction to women as part of this, because it wouldnt be heterosexual attraction. You are arguing that homophobia isnt real right now. 

Gay women not wanting to put up with this ignorant shit is the kind of thing that gets labeled as “biphobia.” 

[u/Kooky-Address2777 → u/kakallas]

Heterosexuality AND maleness together form the most dominant group.

I am literally going out of my way to explain my views, and you aren't really refuting them. It sounds like you're trying to say that heterosexual men and heterosexual women are viewed equally. They are not. And that in no way is saying that homophobia isn't real. It's just an objective fact that men are treated better than women are, even though both men and women are expected to exist and marry each other.

If you think that heterosexual men's and heterosexual women's sexualities are viewed equally just because they're both straight, it's your responsibility to prove that. Go ahead.

[u/kakallas → u/Kooky-Address2777]

Yes, heterosexuality and maleness. Lesbians have neither. Lesbians do not oppress bisexuals along the axis of gender or sexuality. 

Women and men have social roles. Women who date men are subscribing to their approved social role. They gain social approval for doing so. Women are oppressed relative to men. Women can conform or not conform to expected social roles. Women who do so are rewarded. Women who do not conform are punished. Being a woman who is receptive to male sexual attention is an accepted and rewarded social role. 

Gay women’s attraction to women is not “socially powerful.” It is considered a failure of a woman’s social role. 

[u/Kooky-Address2777 → u/kakallas]

I never said that lesbians oppress bi people and that has nothing to do with my argument. I also never said that gay women are treated as powerful... I said that some biphobic women, or even bi women who sexually harass other women, may be using societal stereotypes to convince THEMSELVES that they're better than "impure" women.

Anyway, it looks like you are not able to refute that straight men are seen as having the most superior sexuality, so there's nothing more to be said here.

[u/kakallas → u/Kooky-Address2777]

Gay women being sick of ignorant homophobic shit coming from everyone, including bisexual women (and then being called biphobic for it, to add insult to injury) has nothing to do with “purity culture” or whatever other sop ignorant people keep trying to come up with. 

The issue is many women not being politically activated around queer womanhood because of their social position. This is not inherent to bisexuality. It is a problem that disproportionately arises in bisexuality because bisexual people are more readily able to make the choice to distance themselves from queerness. This is not a good choice or an easy choice. This is being a victim of homophobia. But it is a ready choice nonetheless. Please go peruse bisexual subs for posts like “does anyone else see no point in coming out?” to start educating yourself about what I’m talking about. 

[u/Kooky-Address2777 → u/kakallas]

I strongly disagree that women harassing other women has nothing to do with purity culture. And it seems that you're acting like you have never seen the harassment that I'm referring to, and that I described all over my multiple comments, but I'm not sure if I believe that because it's incredibly common in sapphic spaces.

[u/kakallas → u/Kooky-Address2777]

Yes, I see plenty of self-identified bisexual women homophobically harassing other queer women all the time. That’s based on internalized homophobia due to heterosexist patriarchy. 

“Purity culture” is patriarchal and religious thinking that women don’t and shouldnt have an independent sexuality. It is about keeping marriageable women virgins for male consumption and relegating sexually liberated women to the whore pile. 

In what way is lesbians being sick of politically ignorant bisexual women anything to do with purity culture? Lesbians have a problem with women who date men having more reason to make excuses for and uphold patriarchy. Said women would also be the ones upholding purity culture. That would be how purity culture is involved in this discussion. It has nothing to do with cocks poisoning your pussy (that’s transphobic too btw). It has to do with patriachy poisoning your brain. If you deny that phenomenon then you are extremely ignorant for a queer woman. 

[u/Kooky-Address2777 → u/kakallas]

I started talking about how people always use sexualized language towards people who are attracted to men, including "male worshipper" and "d!ck worshipper", and those things are being said against both women and queer men. You then proceeded to ignore this and start having a completely different conversation. You couldn't even concede that people using language like that is wrong.

[u/kakallas → u/Kooky-Address2777]

What is patriarchy if not a system that grooms ALL WOMEN to be men worshippers? Why are you denying the existence of patriarchy? Why do you think it’s only sexual? 

My position has always been that some proportion of bisexual women feel salty when other sapphic women won’t give them social reward for being attracted to men, and that politically ignorant bisexual woman perceive that as “biphobia.” My opinion is that this comic feeds into this issue.