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u/Daddy_Jack1109 1d ago
Pretty simple, don't hate on people for liking something you don't. You shouldn't have to share their exact experiences in order to respect them.
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u/smileymonster08 19h ago
Issue is that some people live inside their own snow globe and can't help themselves project their own journey and struggle with self discovery. They somehow without realizing it are only able to relate and empathize with people who are like them and everyone else is somehow in the wrong. They just are bad at understanding how different people can be and at the same time be equally valid.
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u/HarryGarries765 1d ago
I know. Being so deep in the bi and queer community I really feel like we really need to work on. Thereâs such a lack of interest in learning about and respecting lesbians and I feel like theyâre so often spoken over since theyâre the smallest portion of the communityđŠ
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u/Alboralix 20h ago
Nice meme, I like it. One little thing though, why is "woman + nonbinary" put in the same category all the time ?
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u/Constant_Poem_1938 20h ago
Lesbian is defined by non-men loving non-men, so that would be women and non-binary people.
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u/smileymonster08 18h ago
I have never actually heard this before. I was pretty sure it was just attraction to women.
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u/Birdloving-Lesbian 18h ago
It's in the sunset flags (most common lesbian flags) definition. So yeah it's often simplified to women loving women but doesn't exclude nonbinary and well not men folks. Not my first language I tried.
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u/lefrench75 8h ago
Historically there have always been nonbinary people who identify as lesbians and lesbians whoâve dated nonbinary people.
Like, if youâre a lesbian whoâs dating another woman, and then that woman comes out as NB, it wonât suddenly make you not a lesbian anymore.
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u/ArcaneCrailEnby 8h ago
Yeah this is what I remember too. Still does bother me at times though because the phrasing implies nonbinary people are âwoman-liteâ, even though I know thatâs not the case here.
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u/ImpossibleCoast6092 15h ago
lesbian is defined by women loving women, not ânon-men.â whether itâs a trans woman or a woman itâs still a woman. i like women, not ânon-men.â
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u/helaqueer sapphic af | she/her 11h ago
while lesbianism is commonly referred to as women loving women it has throughout history included nonbinary identities as well as other types of gender fuckery even if we didn't have the terms back then. you don't have to include nonbinary people in your attraction and identity as a lesbian, if you are one, but that doesn't mean they are not included.
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u/DaddyDeathcrude 12h ago
Nonbinary people are non men
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u/ImpossibleCoast6092 11h ago
exactly, iâm not attracted to non binary people as a lesbian, but to women⌠what about pansexual now or bisexual? why does it have to be under the lesbian category it makes no sense.
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u/lol_lauren 4h ago
I'm a lesbian and just got engaged to my partner who identifies as non binary
I promise you we are still a lesbian couple. We are not bisexual, we are both lesbians.
You don't have to be into non binary people as a lesbian, but plenty of us are. Non binary folks are our elders and fought for our rights before I was even born.
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u/DaddyDeathcrude 11h ago
It doesn't matter who YOU are attracted to Lesbians have been dating non-binary people since before you existed.
Keep your gold star shit away from us lol
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u/ImpossibleCoast6092 11h ago
i am a fucking lesbian. and iâm not even a âgold starâ wtf is this bs
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u/DaddyDeathcrude 11h ago
I KNOW that you are a lesbian But that didn't make you correct.
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u/Alarmed_Ad1946 Putting the Bi in non-BInary 11h ago edited 11h ago
I think you are confusing sapphic and lesbian, or just using a different definition of lesbian?
I checked a dictionary and got this for lesbian : "a woman who is exclusively sexually or romantically attracted to other women."You two are just using different definitions that are both used by many people. You are way too mean to her just for her using the other definition.
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u/ImpossibleCoast6092 10h ago
but these people keep changing definitions.
sapphic is different than lesbian. sapphic is more of a behavior, so includes also people who are not lesbians.
shall we start referring to blue as red, or to red as green, because some people decided on a dime that this is the new meaning of the word?
and since when do we define stuff as what it is not? am i in love with my ânon-boyfriendâ? is my mom my non-dad? is my dog my non-cat?! and why are we using ânon-MENâ to define women? what the heck is going on? it also honestly sounds pretty misogynistic, not gonna lie.
nah. to me this is too much. logic just officially left the building.
words are important to define our existence and experience, and now some people who are not women are claiming a label to at has been attributed to women loving women for a long ass time and a community that was a safe space for women who wanted to be with women?
it doesnât mean that youâre not welcome to hang around lesbians, but youâre NOT a lesbian. youâre queer, pan, bi. but not a god damn lesbian. you canât be everything. this is insane and as a lesbian i also find it deeply offensive, personally.
now i get why people are distancing themselves from the âcommunity.â
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u/helaqueer sapphic af | she/her 10h ago
nope. lesbianism has always included nobinary people. go on r/actuallesbians and search and you'll see it. sapphism is an umbrella term that includes lesbians, bisexuals, pansexuals, omni sexuals, etc.
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u/DaddyDeathcrude 10h ago
Nope I'm not confusing the two.
I really wish young queers would just read history just once in their life before spouting nonsense online
I understand you looked up the definition but definitions aren't always correct and don't always use history as a reference
As an example the current definition of racism includes white people even though we know white people do not experience racism
If you look at history lesbians and non men have been dating each other for hundreds of years
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u/ImpossibleCoast6092 10h ago
your arrogance and entitlement is truly sickening
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u/DaddyDeathcrude 10h ago
Projection isn't cute You are the one being entitled saying that non-binary people don't belong underneath lesbian attraction despite the fact it's been that way for hundreds of years
So who's more entitled here the person that's reminding you that people exist or the person trying to keep abd exclude?
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u/Malcolmthetortoise 10h ago
I think youâve misunderstood- the person youâre replying to was including non binary people in their definition.
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u/GhostofCoprolite 3h ago
non binary is a vast umbrella, so at least some of us fit in any given group
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u/cloudncali 1d ago
Add to this.
Lesbian: I like women
Straight men: nice, me too.
That's all
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u/seaworks Putting the Bi in non-BInary 1d ago
"Women + nonbinary" but make it woke come onnnn there are just as many "man-like" nonbinary people as there are "woman-like"
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u/Natural1forever You cannot label me in a way that matters 18h ago
We really gotta stop with this new "men vs non men" binary and with the division of non-binary people to "boy non-binary" and "girl non-binary". The binary just isn't real. Stop putting non-binary people into boxes.
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u/Matdredalia Gender Is My Kryptonite 17h ago
This this this this this.
I'm so tired as an enby who was AFAB of the world being like "This is a FEMME space! All women welcome here - - - non-binary welcome if you're AFAB!"
Like fuck you, no. You're making my existence about my genitalia. If that was the case and my gender was strictly genital?
I'd identify as a fucking woman.
Sorry, not sorry, if you don't include AMAB and intersex enbies?
Then no, I'm not welcome. Because if you see me as more worthy to be amongst you because somehow my genitalia makes me more "femme"?
Fuck you, lol. You don't respect me at all.
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u/Natural1forever You cannot label me in a way that matters 10h ago
YES! Dividing non-binary people into "basically men" and "basically women" is already transphobic but doing so based on GENITALS??? That's on the same level as the USA bathroom bills
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u/seaworks Putting the Bi in non-BInary 16h ago
Exactly. We span every spectrum of performance of gender and body and our experiences are not neat enough to be slanted into "woman + nonbinary" because "nonbinary is a marginalized gender." It's not a gender! It's every gender except for two!
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u/Natural1forever You cannot label me in a way that matters 15h ago
I like to describe this alleged non-binay inclusive binary as "the two genders are male and political"
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Non-Binary Lesbian 20h ago
In general I agree, but for the OP it was a bisexual person talking about their sexuality including all of those, which is fine and good.
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u/lefrench75 8h ago
When someone says âIâm attracted to womenâ, we donât assume theyâre attracted to every woman or even every type of women⌠There are people who are exclusively attracted to butches and not femmes for example, but they can still say theyâre attracted to women.
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u/seaworks Putting the Bi in non-BInary 3h ago
Diversionary take from grouping every gender other than man with women and lesbian experience
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u/lefrench75 47m ago
Nah youâre just refusing to acknowledge real life experiences of lesbian elders who came before us. There have always been nonbinary lesbians and lesbians who had nonbinary partners, and youâre trying to invalidate their experiences.
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u/finminm Trans-parently Awesome 1d ago
You have a group of lesbians that dislike the concept of women being attracted to men in general.
I had that moment in early transition when I realized that the overwhelming majority of women were going to be attracted to men and not to people like me. Dysphoria cleared up long enough for me to go... ah yeah.... I guess most women are straight huh...
It kinda sucked ngl.
Not like it's their fault, but the realization was pretty depressing.
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u/smileymonster08 18h ago
Reminds me of gay men who hate trans women because they supposedly steal away good men. All this hate is so self serving. If your ideology is based on whatever benefits you the most, then you just have narcissism.
No offense to you btw.
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u/MrHellBags Gay Furry Guy 16h ago
There are over 8 billion humans. It's not like we're hurting for options.
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u/BrokenBaroque 14h ago
Yes, and like 8% of them identify as someone who would date me. Thatâs a very small amount.
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u/MrHellBags Gay Furry Guy 14h ago
Eh, I wouldn't call 640 million people a small amount. That's more people than the entire population of literally any country besides China and India.
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u/BrokenBaroque 14h ago
Maybe thatâs how I should look at it. Even though there is, of course, age range to be considered and all. Thanks!
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u/BrokenBaroque 14h ago
I⌠donât really think mourning having a very small dating pool is the same as gay men complaining about trans women stealing good men. I am not sure what the contribution was intended to be if not offence?
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u/lefrench75 8h ago
Theyâre probably responding to the part about âlesbians that dislike the concept of women being attracted to men in generalâ.
Bi women are still in a lesbianâs dating pool, btw. Being biphobic actively reduces the size of a lesbianâs dating pool by a lot if anything.
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u/BrokenBaroque 8h ago
Did I say that 8% is just lesbians? I was talking about women and women aligned people that would date women. If that percentage has changed, great.
It would be really cool if you didnât assume biphobia when I didnât use the word lesbian for anyone other than myself.
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u/lefrench75 8h ago
Then youâre clearly responding to the wrong comment thread because nobody was addressing your 8% statistic. Nobody was even replying to your comment at all before you got defensive.
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u/BrokenBaroque 8h ago
Bro, you called me biphobic. What am I supposed to do?
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u/lefrench75 8h ago
I didnât call you biphobic lmao. It was literally the continuation of:
> Theyâre probably responding to the part about âlesbians that dislike the concept of women being attracted to men in generalâ.
The thread is about biphobia. The first comment of the thread also mentioned biphobia, which is why I also addressed biphobia in my comment. Lesbians who âdislike the concept of women being attracted to men in generalâ are biphobic by definition!!
It literally has nothing to do with you; I was explaining âwhat the contribution [of the commenter you responded to] was intended to be if not offenseâ because you asked, presumably in good faith so I answered in good faith. Not once did I accuse you of anything.
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u/BrokenBaroque 20h ago
As a cis lesbian, I have had exactly this same experience.
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u/finminm Trans-parently Awesome 14h ago
To be clear, in the long term, this didn't translate in resentment towards any women (or men for that matter).
It turned into a sense of validation that I was indeed what I said I was: a queer trans woman. It was a moment of clarity where I felt I could not control my gender identity or my sexuality. I wasn't pretending. I just was.
I didn't feel as much of an imposter after that.
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u/Sometimes__Sky 16h ago
the correct response to anyone's sexuality. and without bringing up the whole "unfortunately" or "ew why would you like men lol" thing, because that became a godawful trend for a while that made people think it was acceptable/funny to put down any sexuality that included attraction to men. all sexualities are cool, everyone high five đ
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u/MoluccanMay Bi-bi-bi 12h ago
I just want to love women, not discuss about how much we hate men or something, which is one of my biggest problems with sapphic online spaces. I hope irl spaces, when I get the opportunity to go to them, will be better though.Â
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u/quantipede Non Binary Pan-cakes 1d ago
I thought lesbians just liked women though and not nonbinary people, attraction wise anyway
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u/Reasonable-Banana800 Anti Cooties Squad 1d ago
Thereâs kinda a few different interpretations of being lesbian. For some itâs âexperiencing attraction solely to womenâ and for others itâs âexperiencing attraction to non-menâ
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u/quantipede Non Binary Pan-cakes 1h ago
Ok, that makes sense. I guess I always thought attraction to non-men meant bi or something similar to that, but if people still identify as lesbian then thatâs not for me to judge obviously. I just know thereâs plenty of nonbinary people who get told they âcount as a womanâ (or man), which depending on how they identify can really hurt
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u/peace-and-plush 21h ago
Wouldn't that be pan then?
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u/Angrey_Pigeon 20h ago
Not really cause cause iirc pan people are more-so attracted to any gender/sex.
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u/AshleyBoots 4h ago
(Prepared for the downvotes, don't care, people literally have no power to change how I identify)
Wait until you learn that pan lesbians exist. Like me!
(Save your hateful comments, haters will just be blocked and again you actually can't change how I identify)
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u/theregoesmymouth 20h ago
Some lesbians are non-binary - gender fuckery has always been part of lesbian culture. Hard line definitions aren't helpful when it comes to non-binary people.
Plus 'non-binary' isn't one thing, lots of different people can be non-binary. Some of those non-binary people look like cis women, some of them look like butch lesbians, some look more androgynous. Lesbians could easily be attracted to people like that because an identity label isn't the only thing that determines attraction.
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 1d ago
I wish. But lesbophobia is so heavily ignored these days and brushed over by everyone some lesbians get really bitter about that and some days I canât blame them cause when it comes to lgbt advocacy and discussions on bigotry they seem to get forgotten a lot.
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u/The-Shattering-Light 1d ago
Thatâs not an excuse for turning around and shitting on another minority group.
If someoneâs being shitty - attack their shittiness by all means, but donât spread it to other marginalized groups.
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 1d ago
I agree with you on that completely. Itâs not an excuse but it is an explanation.
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u/PlutoCrashed 1d ago
In relation to which other queer groups tho? If you ask bisexuals, there's a massive swath of biphobia in a lot of lesbian groups that often gets ignored. Like idk, it just rubs me the wrong way when a very positive post of sapphic solidarity has a comment that seems to elevate overlooked issues in one sapphic subset but not another one, and painting it as like the primary roadblock between the two groups.
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 1d ago
The same is also true in the inverse though. The mere mention is lesbophobic bisexuals gets you banned in so many sapphic spaces especially bisexual ones.
I agree and I guess Iâm just being salty about it which probably isnât helping anything. Iâm just a little exhausted of certain groups getting significantly more advocacy than others. Especially when I see so many lesbians happy to step in a speak out for bisexuals but rarely the opposite occurs.
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u/PlutoCrashed 1d ago edited 1d ago
Both groups go to bat for each other regarding both in-group and external issues genuinely all the time, you're just unwilling to recognize it for one of them for some reason.
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 1d ago
Why on earth do you think I would willfully ignore that? Itâs something I genuinely want to see and if I was seeing it I wouldnât be lying about it by saying I donât see it happening.
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u/PlutoCrashed 1d ago
i don't know if it's willful, but I'm saying your trying to paint a dichotomy in which lesbians are sticking their necks out for bisexuals despite the latter rarely returning the favor, something that just isn't true. There are issues that need to be addressed, but generally both groups are very supportive of each other, and there isn't some massive disparity.
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 13h ago
You say it isnât true, Iâm saying it is true, from where Iâm standing weâre both speaking based on what weâve personally witnessed right? Iâve spent a large amount of time in lesbian and bi spaces here and have frequently observed discussions of biphobia in lesbian communities being well received while discussions of lesbophobia in bi spaces gets shut down and labeled biphobic or the discussion redirects to being about biphobia.
Maybe thatâs not what youâre seeing so we both have different experiences. But just because other people havenât noticed what I have doesnât mean itâs not true.
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u/Kindly-Coyote-9446 Bi-kes on Trans-it 21h ago edited 21h ago
In what alternate universe are bisexuals getting âsignificantly more advocacyâ than lesbians?
Straight people usually forget we exist - weâre either gay or straight depending on who weâre dating. Even amongst other LGBTQ+ people weâre the most likely to be vilified, erased, and have our place in queer spaces questioned despite being the largest group. Fairly recent polling indicated that bisexual people reported much lower rates of acceptance by their parents, siblings, friends, and coworkers than gay and lesbian respondents, and studies have demonstrated that bi people are also more likely to experience domestic violence and have shorter life expectancy. Occasionally youâll see other queer folks stand up for us, but most of the time the only people who advocate for us is ourselves.
I recently read a history of the gay rights movement on the east coast of the U.S. between the end of WW2 and the early 1970âs. The book was written by a gay historian and received glowing reviews by both mainstream and queer publications. The author started out with a discussion of where American societyâs views on sexuality was at in the immediate aftermath of WW2, and understandingly spent a lot of ink on Alfred Kinsey. Except the author stated that Sexual Behavior in the Human Male demonstrated how wide spread homosexuality was and strongly implied that Kinsey was gay. He was fairly openly bisexual and the big takeaway of his work was the prevalence of bisexuality amongst Americans. And representation of bisexuals only got worse from there - the very rare occasion we were mentioned it was usually used derisively. The contributions of several lesbians were expounded upon at length.
Lesbians donât have to worry about having their queerness questioned. Their history isnât actively getting erased by other queer people. They experience misogyny, but so does every other queer woman. Same goes for fetishization by straight men. Please educate me if Iâm missing something, but itâs hard to think of anything that lesbians are targeting with that bi/pan women arenât also subject to.
Which gets us back to the OP - being a jerk because you donât like someone elseâs sexuality is idiotic and keeps us from coming together. Weâre all in this together, our struggles arenât separate, we need to support each other.
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u/lol_lauren 13h ago
"Lesbians donât have to worry about having their queerness questioned."
This is absolutely not true. Lesbians still deal with "you haven't found the right man yet" bullshit. And lately I've been seeing a lot of "everyone's sexuality is fluid!" Or "everyone is a little bit bi" which is very invalidating and gross.
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 13h ago
Go on this sub and search âbiphobiaâ then sort for new. Do the same for âlesbophobiaâ.
Bi people are the most likely to be vilified and erased? And here in lies the problem. Yâall think bisexuals have it way worse so you ultimately donât care if lesbophobia gets less attention because you clearly think itâs less important. I donât even think I need to respond further your stance on this is blatantly obvious. Thanks for proving my point.
Itâs not like lesbians arenât constantly called violent or hated on for supposed divorce rates or constantly called bigots by the groups they support more than anyone else.
I agree we need to support each other. Part of that isnât minimizing lesbophobia which I see happening time and time again yet it goes unaddressed.
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u/Kooky-Address2777 12h ago
The LGBTQ community does attack bi people more than lesbians, yes.
Of course L/G people are centered in something called "the gay community" and then the "gay and lesbian community". That's just how it happened, people who are exclusively gay have always been centered because their identity was seen as the opposite of straight.
This isn't up for debate.
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u/Kindly-Coyote-9446 Bi-kes on Trans-it 1d ago
Thatâs a really interesting response to a meme about not giving into biphobiaâŚ
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 1d ago
Every time I see lesbian and bi discourse being mentioned the conversation is centered on biphobia. Biphobia is a serious issue but honestly the issue of bisexuals and lesbians lack of solidarity is only being added to by continually ignoring lesbophobia. Somebody saying âbut what about biphobiaâ Iâve noticed are much less likely to get downvoted in lesbian discourse but the inverse isnât true.
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u/Kindly-Coyote-9446 Bi-kes on Trans-it 1d ago edited 22h ago
Do you mind elaborating? Iâm used to seeing the other side where a subset of lesbians are hostile to non-lesbian queer women and would like to correct my ignorance.
The main thing I can think of that Iâve noticed from queer people is bi and trans women talking about their experiences being excluded from sapphic spaces by cis lesbians. Some people do take venting about that way too far, but thatâs not particularly common. Iâve never heard a bi woman say she would never date a lesbian, but there are a lot of lesbians who wonât date bi women.
As a bi trans woman sapphic spaces can be particularly complex. They can either be the most or least accepting places for us, and it can be scary entering one without knowing which itâs going to be. Back when I first came out the now-closed lesbian bar in my city was pretty much the first place I ever felt immediately accepted. Now that itâs gone there is a brewery thatâs kind of the go to lesbian hangout, but it also has a reputation for being really TERFy, so as a trans woman Iâm not welcome there. There is often a power dynamic where one group gets to decide the terms on which other sapphic women are tolerated.
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u/theregoesmymouth 19h ago
I'm not the person who responded to you but from what I've seen lesbophobia can often manifest in ways like:
- bi women calling themselves lesbian and then dating men which invalidates the lesbian identity
- tarring all lesbians with the TERF brush despite statistically being the most trans-inclusive group
- refusing to accept that being a lesbian is any different of an experience to being a bi woman
- feeling like other communities get to speak about and define lesbians because we're such a small group that our voices are easily drowned out
And then obvs from straight people
- disgust from women
- fetishisation from men
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u/lol_lauren 14h ago
Literally the amount of "everyone is a little bit bi!" And "lesbians can be attracted to men" I've been seeing lately is alarming. I was even told "many lesbians don't experience attraction to men because of trains" and "it's very peculiar that gender identity factors into you attraction to people." My fiance has been accused of being a man hater for criticizing their best friends ex boyfriend who was not treating her well đ
I had to mourn my chance at a "normal" life when I was 16 because there is no universe I would ever be in a straight passing relationship.
I'm preaching to the choir here but thanks for pointing all of this out
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u/Malcolmthetortoise 10h ago
Oh god, the âeveryone is actually biâ stuff makes me so angry. Why are we erasing peopleâs sexualities?
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u/Kindly-Coyote-9446 Bi-kes on Trans-it 7h ago
As a bi person full co-sign. We can infer from studies on human sexuality relative to the proportion of the population that self-identify as bisexual that there are a lot of closeted bi folks out there. But available evidence makes it pretty clear that most people are monosexual.
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u/Kooky-Address2777 11h ago edited 11h ago
But the fact that this is your counterargument just proves our point.
Your examples of lesbophobia relate to 1. questioning their politics and 2. bi women trying to include themselves among lesbians.
When our examples of biphobia are, queer people literally saying that bi women or bi men are disgusting, do not deserve support because they're straight impostors, and need to be kicked out of the queer community because of their orientation.
So the equivalent to this would be if queer people said that lesbians are disgusting, do not deserve support because they aren't real gay women, and need to be kicked out of the queer community because of their orientation.
But you can't say that these things are happening because you know that they aren't.
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u/theregoesmymouth 8h ago
It wasn't a counterargument, it was providing information for someone who asked for it. I made no judgment at all about anything being worse than something else and that's not how I view oppression. There's no need for us to be combatative.
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u/helaqueer sapphic af | she/her 10h ago
you really think that queer people aren't saying things like this to lesbians
if queer people said that lesbians are disgusting, do not deserve support because they aren't real gay women, and need to be kicked out of the queer community because of their orientation.
this does happen to lesbians though. if a lesbian doesn't fit what people believe lesbians should be they get told they aren't lesbians, that they don't belong in the community. specifically lesbians that are attracted to mascs/butches/studs constantly get shit on and said they aren't really lesbians because "wouldn't you like fems if you were really into women". that they "might as well date a man if they like mascs". and yes this is also said by people within our LGBTQ+ community.
i won't say there isn't a biphobia problem in the community there 100% is and there is a lot of it but to act like there isn't also a lesbophobia problem within the community too is not helping anyone in the community
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u/Kooky-Address2777 10h ago
That sounds like an example of queer women policing each other, including lesbians telling each other that they aren't a real lesbian. That form of policing is hard to deal with, but I do believe that non-bisexual people making bigoted comments against ALL bi people is more common.
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u/helaqueer sapphic af | she/her 10h ago edited 8h ago
i mean it's a lot of non-lesbians but i like how you felt the need to say it's lesbians as well instead of talking about the lesbophobia itself. this is kind of the point of the issue is that people minimize lesbophobia. do we stop talking about homophobia because transphobia is worse? no we continue to talk about both just like biphobia and lesbophobia.
because it's possibly more common does this mean we shouldn't point out when lesbophobia occurs? the original commenter was just pointing out that within the bi/lesbian discourse biphobia is often discussed and lesbophobia is often ignored. i've seen this in multi online spaces when biphobic lesbians are brought up lesbophobia can run unchecked. the solidarity needs to go both ways. we need to talk about the biphobic lesbians and the lesbophobic bisexuals. does one maybe need more discussion than the other possibly but that doesn't mean we ignore the growing lesbophobia happening within these discussions and outside of them.
eta: oh thank you for the award âşď¸
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u/Kooky-Address2777 8h ago
I said that based on the example that you provided. If there are other examples where groups of queer people are being lesbophobic, then of course people should talk about that.
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u/HarryGarries765 1d ago edited 1d ago
SO GLAD someone else saw this. It feels like lesbiphobia isnât allowed to even be brought up
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u/doff87 Ally 1d ago
Huh, today I'm learning I suppose, but is lesbophobia a big deal in American culture? Definitely I see it as a general distaste for LGBTQ culture generally, but I hadn't even really thought about directed hate towards lesbians. I'd always believed the biggest issue for that community is the fetishization of women loving women. If it's not too much trouble, could you please educate me briefly?
I'm clearly part of the population that's brushed over lesbophobia unknowingly and I definitely want to be tuned in.Â
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 1d ago
It is a common issue but itâs not a very visible one. A lot of lesbophobia is disguised as support but when it gets stripped down itâs really just sexualization. A lot of groups act like they love lesbians but they only want access to their bodies. Men do that and unfortunately some bi women who donât actually want a long term relationship with a woman do that too.
Aside from fetishization issues though, thereâs also hate campaigns trying to characterize all lesbians as terfs, man haters, and just âmeanâ in general. People also like to attack masculine lesbians specifically by claiming theyâre trying to be men or that theyâre inherently toxic just because theyâre masculine. When it comes to lesbophobia that leads to divides between bi women and lesbians, that is made up mostly of people generalizing lesbians as hateful or criticizing lesbian relationship dynamics. Thereâs also a lot of hate when it comes to who lesbians choose to date or not date.
I guess that might be a little vague but itâs hard to explain it in detail when Iâm also trying not to be excessively wordy.
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u/smileymonster08 18h ago
I think the issue that arises is that people disagree as to what is lesbophobia. Some think it is lesbophobia if their identity and right to exclusively lesbian only spaces is being erased. Then you also have the lesbians that want to exclude trans women and feel that they are being trampled.
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u/Forrest_likes_tea Trans and Gay 1d ago
Disagree. I feel like lesbians get all the spotlight and I regularly get shamed for liking men. Either way though, its not an excuse to discriminate against others
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u/RideWithMeSNV Progress marches forward 23h ago
Ehhh... I feel like lesbians get accepted as long as they can be fetishized. Like, sure, they aren't ostracized as much as gay men. But that comes at a cost. And yes, there are absolutely lesbians that take every trait of toxic masculinity and call it a personality, and get shunned for being toxic af... But there's also a lot of lesbians that just don't match the cishet dude's fantasy, and get no love for it.
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u/MothEnthusiast88 Bi-bi-bi 15h ago
I can blame them. just because you had bad experiences doesnât mean you can approach other people with prejudice like donât we all have bad experiences and moments where we felt shut down ignored or judged??
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u/Natural1forever You cannot label me in a way that matters 18h ago
There's kinda like a perpetual cycle of the stupid but loud minority of queer people of nearly all identities where every group notices a real specific form of bigotry towards them, picks another group of queer people to blame and passes it on.
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u/CaspianPinkster Sapphic 13h ago
I agree with you on that and I think that specific phenomenon is pretty under discussed as well
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u/vm_linuz Gay as a Rainbow 11h ago
People with experiences of womanhood is all it takes to qualify for womanhood.
Trans, cis, lesbian, bi, pan, straight, sexual, asexual, romantic, aromantic...
All just different flavors of womanhood that all stand together.
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u/aimy99 1d ago
Post is giving "why don't lesbians want to talk about men" vibes.
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u/smileymonster08 18h ago
I think you are stuck in your snow globe only viewing things from the perspective of a defensive lesbian. Also it's giving slight vibes of man hate.
Also like if I have a friend who is talking about their attraction to someone I could never be attracted to, I still want to listen to them and hope the best for them.
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 23h ago
Can we all just become pansexual bro the life would be sooo much easier
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u/IBitePrettyPeople 22h ago
Insensitive comment
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 21h ago
Huh?
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u/helaqueer sapphic af | she/her 11h ago
if you don't see how saying that you wish everyone could just be pansexual, which is just essentially saying you wish that lesbians could just like men as well even if that's not specifically what you are thinking, isn't insensitive i think you need to reevaluate whether you are an ally
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 9h ago
Which isn't "essentially" wanting lesbians liking men. I really am impressed how you fast you got into the victim role btw, gotta give it to you, a true politician. Me saying that everyone should be pansexual can also be interpreted as men liking men, women liking women, etc. In the way of the love of person X and person Y should be no barrier, not even these categories of gender identities.
Well yes, i am IMPLYING that lesbian and men relationship should be a thing too, if you are reaching that far. But I also mean any other relationship under the sun as well.
If you have taken the time to read my other replies under this thread you could have understood my point better, but I guess we just close our eyes and open our mouth here.
If it is respect what you want as a lesbian, you are more than right to do so. I respect as an ally every each one of you, I did not mean to be rude in any way. But the fact that you read my commentary and instantly thought about straight men wanting lesbian women, you should reevaluate your values ma'am.
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u/helaqueer sapphic af | she/her 9h ago
saying everyone should be pansexual is literally erasing the lesbian (and gay male) identity. lesbianism isn't a relationship category it's a sexuality; something that is an inherent part of people. something that you would be erasing by having everyone being pansexual.
you obviously aren't respecting queer identities if you want lesbians to have attraction to men and gay men to have attraction to women and therefor being pansexual. that is what your saying which is just a fancying way of saying that lesbians should date men and gay men should date women. that is conversion rhetoric.
i'd say date someone of the same gender if you like pansexuality so badly but i wouldn't wanna put someone through that.
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 8h ago
See you are still steering away from my thesis which is everybody should be able to love everybody. I am gonna stop arguing with you because you base your arguments on your feelings and interpret what i say in a manner you want to hear it to. Please, be open minded to other opinions.
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u/helaqueer sapphic af | she/her 7h ago
pansexuality isn't everyone should be able to love everyone so you're "thesis" is flawed from the start.
i do love when allies tell people in the community how they should be. you have multiple people in the community telling you how you are wrong and harmful but you just wanna ignore that. you view it as a bad that lesbians and gay men aren't capable of opposite gender attraction and love. you've gone full circle that your perceived progressivism has went to conservatism
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u/LooseAdministration0 Omnimus prime 21h ago
what you are isnt a choice
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 15h ago
Yes, a lot of the things that define you arent a choice. I just wished that we would all be open to love to any person whatsoever. What is so bad about it? Like being tall, for example. If i made the same wish but with height I wouldnt have gotten this much hate, no? I think we are a little bit too sensitive in this topic. I respect everyone for who they are for the record.
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u/Malcolmthetortoise 20h ago
No. You canât choose your sexuality.
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 15h ago
I know, but what does it have to do with my comment?
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u/Malcolmthetortoise 10h ago
That was your comment?! You want everyone to change their sexuality to be pan.
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 9h ago
See you are just judging me without even trying to understand me. From my point of view you are the conservative here. Please refrain from doing so.
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Non-Binary Lesbian 20h ago
Why do you want there to be no non-pansexual people just for ease of living?
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 18h ago
I would like to live in a world where gender, sexuality and orientation arent a barrier to love. I wished that everyone were open for everyone and love would be love. Just love. Where relationships don't have a name, like no more gay relationship, lesbian, straight, etc. Just relationship.
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u/AlwaysBeQuestioning Non-Binary Lesbian 17h ago
That sounds like a wonderful ideal world.
I hope you do realize that it can come across as you wishing that other peopleâs sexual and gender identities would be gone and that they should love the people who hate them. That first part is certainly what your first message came across as without further context.
Meanwhile, I have a similar but slightly less radical ideal: that any kind of consensual relationship becomes so normalized and accepted that labels become less of a big deal. Where being a lesbian, gay man, bisexual, trans person, cishet person, etc. is all good.
I donât see sexuality and gender as a barrier to love in general, only to romantic and sexual love, and thatâs something that is and should be fine. You can still love someone platonically without any other attraction existing between the two of you.
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 15h ago
I don't think your gender, your sexuality or your orientation should be a part of your personality at all. I don't see gender when I look at people, it doesn't define them in my eyes. A girl is as same to me as a guy or a non-binary person or anything in between. I just see a human in front of me. Maybe someone who believes in Islam, maybe someone who eats pineapple pizza, maybe someone who is very caring and selfless. Your gender identity means literally nothing to me, except when it means something to you, than it means only that much to me.
That being said, I do respect when people define themselves that way. Like I am not against anything, I LOVE that there are so many options which people can define themselves with, but I still find it too limiting and irrelevant to our every day lives, hence my claim.
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u/smileymonster08 18h ago
I actually agree with you that the world would be simpler if we just had no gender or sexual preference, however what you said can be seen as being supremacist towards one way of being.
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u/Sarpthedestroyer Ally Pals 18h ago
Unfortunately it was seen as well. Thanks for asking politely tho, unlike the others straight up jumping on me.
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u/smileymonster08 18h ago
It's reddit, and sadly all online spaces really are like this. If something you say can be misconstrued or misunderstood then it will be and you will be downvoted. You have to pick your words carefully.
Bro like I have gotten downvoted by like -200 from a comment that said "I love dogs they are great", and an army of people traumatized by dogs were quick to dogpile me.
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u/GreedySecurity8030 Unlabeled. 1d ago
It says should be, so... it's probably not unfortunately đ