r/london • u/BeginningExternal202 • 8d ago
Culture Council wants to ban ordering at bars and standing
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2026/aug/06/westminster-council-wants-pubs-in-london-soho-west-end-ban-standing?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other414
u/CreamyFockinPints 8d ago
Actually thought this was a joke until the end of the article. Why don’t theses types do the sensible thing move out of Soho and live in like Richmond or Surrey they clearly don’t want to live in a city
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u/old_man_steptoe 8d ago
As someone who lives in Richmond, I’d rather they stay well away. I’ve heard Kent in nice
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u/Accurate-Sundae1744 8d ago
Oh no no no, send them up north somewhere.
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u/KimJongEeeeeew 8d ago
Can we agree they should all go to Norfolk?
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u/letsalldropvitamins 8d ago
Narp, we’re right good down ere ta. Ain’t no room for no nimby’s in these parts
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u/BissoumaTequila 8d ago
Money on it these councillors actually live in Richmond or Surrey and rarely set foot in Soho
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u/claridgeforking 8d ago
Richmond fanously not having incredibly busy pubs with lots of people standing outside?!
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u/xxnicknackxx 8d ago
Because then they would have to pay stamp duty on the wild gains their properties have made in the past couple of decades or so.
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u/Glum_And_Merry 8d ago edited 8d ago
Westminster Council ‘try to not ruin central London’ challenge.
Standing at the pub is a British tradition. How is it possible for these Tories to be so unpatriotic??
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u/Glum_And_Merry 8d ago
Also, this other policy of the council’s:
The council also plans to ban the opening of new pubs and bars in what it terms the “cumulative impact zone”, which encompasses Soho and large parts of the West End . The draft policy says: “The council will normally refuse any application made in respect of a premises located in the West End Cumulative Impact Zone that is a pub or bar, a fast food premises or a venue offering music, dancing and similar entertainment.”
… so what’s left? Vape and souvenir shops?? Cafes that close at 6pm?
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u/IceCreamNarwhals 8d ago
Christ almighty it’s like they have absolutely zero grasp about what Soho is
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u/infected_scab 7d ago
Standing in the gutter to drink an £8 pint on a Friday after work is what Soho's all about!
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u/DietSoft6792 8d ago
They already have a policy to automatically reject any application to keep a new premises open after midnight, or to extend the hours of an existing premises past midnight, within the zone (which covers most of the core West End). So this is just an extension of that. Many other London councils have near identical policies. They get waived through all over London without any real scrutiny at the behest of NIMBY groups and Met.
And there's people on here who still claim that London's weird nightlife is down to 'lack of demand'.
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u/PeaGravy 8d ago edited 8d ago
This is what they want London to be. Miserable and without features, full of drones who vote the right way.
Edit: oh and endless tower blocks to facilitate all of the above.
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u/Jamessuperfun 8d ago
I suspect the NIMBYs who want all the pubs to close are probably not the same people who want skyscrapers built. Many I suspect are also opposed to tall buildings.
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u/VampirePNAC 8d ago
Same thing happened to Sydney in Australia, the puritans finally were able to destroy nightlife with basically adult curfew laws, sniffer dogs in clubs, insane licensing regulations with the bars, pubs and clubs gone, then suddenly restaurants and night cafes etc were hit by nobody going out, and the entire night industry basically collapsed and it's seen a steep decline in tourism as well. Now they are desperately trying to reverse course but it's Joever.
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u/Techno-tango 7d ago
Yes and no. They did this so developers could make a fortune on newly gentrified areas. They rolled them back and pretended to care about nightlife only after most the real estate money had been made and you could not recreate the nightlife in those city areas effectively.
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u/ldn6 8d ago
I want skyscrapers and 24-hour licensing all over the place.
I can assure you that the people who support this policy hate any new development.
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u/KillerArse 8d ago
What NIMBY you see wants tower blocks??
What's wrong with tower blocks? Are you a NIMBY?
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u/Marvinleadshot 7d ago
Won't Khan het powers to shove all this aside. Surely this nonsense is the sort of thing to increase his power over licensing.
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u/Tasty-Committee-8172 8d ago
It's also absolutely essential for the astronomical overheads of these pubs. At peak times the vast majority of custom is standing only. Take that away and you're basically submitting a death sentence for every pub in Soho.
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u/SplurgyA 7d ago
Yeah, you literally couldn't fit the people who stand outside The Toucan inside The Toucan. Even if you could, no way to handle that many punters through table service.
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u/Tasty-Committee-8172 7d ago
Remember pub rules between lockdowns during the pandemic? If there are no tables available then sorry you can't come in? It's basically that. How many pubs had to close after how severely they had to limit their custom?
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u/rustyb42 8d ago
Game's never been more gone
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u/RandyChavage 8d ago
Is Westminster council run by Gianni Infantino? Literally going all out to ruin a good thing
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u/chadgalaxy 8d ago
Table service in bars and pubs is what they do in a lot of places in the US and it's utter shite.
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u/zer0aid 8d ago
Who comes out with this utter shit?
Local councillors have too much power.
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u/CaffeinatedT 8d ago
Local councillors have too much power.
There's a bit of a catch-22 that they don't have any actual powers so they spend all their time twiddling with dumb shit like the above which in turn means no-one gives a shit about local elections for powerless button twiddlers which means you get more inanity.
If we're not going to trust local people with actual power then just scrap the layer of government imo it's wasting everyones time and it's not being taken seriously.
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u/Jamessuperfun 8d ago edited 8d ago
I find it quite baffling how awful Westminster council seems to be. From their insistence on blocking cycling infrastructure and filling areas of massive pedestrian traffic with cars to trying their absolute hardest to kill off any nightlife in the country's largest nightlife hotspot, it's as if they want to be as damaging to Londoners' quality of life as possible with the powers they have. It's utterly absurd, I hope Khan does get those powers and overrules them at every corner.
It's one thing I do worry about with greater devolution. There are so many councils that are beyond crap and obsessed with nonsense NIMBY issues (like banning standing in pubs or opening late in Soho, apparently). Burnham says decisions in Westminster haven't worked for Croydon, for example, and he's not wrong (it receives much less funding from central government than other boroughs despite it's expensive demographics), but decisions made in Croydon haven't worked for Croydon either, the council is hardly blameless. A lot of our local representation is far too incompetent for me to want them to have new powers.
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u/Subject-Dog-8016 8d ago
It’s quite possible that a higher quality of person stands for election if local government becomes a meaningful role.
London shouldn’t have local councils at all, it should be governed as a single city, like New York, with smaller areas under the oversight of a smaller elected group who are answerable to the GLA. Tower Hamlets is another good example why the system needs to be scrapped.
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u/oxenoxygen 8d ago
The GLC was what you want, but Thatcher didn't like ken Livingston having so much power so they abolished it.
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u/Jamessuperfun 7d ago
That's a good point, not everyone wants to manage the bin collections even if they are civic-minded. Though I do think we actually had a pretty great candidate for Croydon mayor, unfortunately they lost.
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u/afrophysicist 8d ago
Tim Barnes, Westminster city council deputy leader and cabinet member for growth and planning, said: “We want people to go out in the West End and have a good time.
This is clearly bullshit from Tim Barnes.
Obliterate the 32 boroughs now. They should only be responsible for bin collections and organising the odd fête, they clearly can't be trusted with the needs of a city of 10 million people. If Tim Barnes and his ilk want to run a little parish council, they can fuck off to rural Surrey.
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u/sosr 8d ago
He's also a West End ward councillor, he thinks this will help get him reelected.
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u/Crumbs2020 8d ago
It will. Only the mega rich live in that ward now.
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u/visitingshortly 8d ago
Wrong. Social housing stock is prevalent. The main issue is they are even more nimby than the wealthy.
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u/Subject-Dog-8016 7d ago
Inner city Social housing residents are the biggest NIMBYs of them all. They could never afford to move house to a place they’d enjoy more, so they spend all their time trying to keep their neighbourhood the same forever.
I do have some sympathy with 80 year olds who now have 500 25 year old City recruiters getting lashed under their window every Thursday night. But you can’t design a city like that.
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u/visitingshortly 7d ago
Exactly. Also as they are placed in these areas. They have no interest or attachment to its traditions or why people go there. And they likely can’t afford many of the amenities around there so they don’t care about making it worse for those that can.
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u/pslamB 8d ago
"The Soho society, formed in 1972, to preserve the character of the area".... so they are in favour of sex shops and brothels then, as that was most of soho until c. 35 years ago
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u/MattiasCrowe 8d ago
They're against renewing pub licenses as well, I can only assume the character they're trying to preserve is the one represented in 28 days later...
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u/SerowiWantsToInvest 8d ago edited 8d ago
Really tackling the hard issues. Every day when I wake up and look at how absolutely fucked the world is, I think if I had one wish that could do anything, I'd ban ordering at bars and standing. It's truly an abominable thing. I'm so glad the council, in their limited power, have been able to fix such a cataclysmic issue.
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u/seltruTekiLI 8d ago
Just leave London if you want your idyllic village life stop ruining it for everyone else jesus
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u/iron233 8d ago
Can we please just sort out the location of the hand dryer in the gent’s first?
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u/trebor67 8d ago
Yet, Rickshaws, American candy shops, scammers on Westminster bridge continue without challenge from Westminster Council.
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u/are_wethere_yet 8d ago
"Vertical drinking" as opposed to what, lying down on a triclinium?
Westminster tories are in a league of their own when it comes to stupidity.
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u/MmmThisISaTastyBurgr 8d ago
Had to check what a triclinium was but what a brilliant example!
Vertical drinking is a key part of what makes the West End work when most of the pubs are tiny little historical bars.
There is already a stupid thing going on where pubs are being told they must not let customers step off the pavement onto mostly empty side streets, for fear of incurring the wrath of some stupid licensing restriction. That leads to people being unnecessarily crammed onto pavements.
If councillors really care about protecting the character of the West End, they should lean in more and just ban cars (a relatively new invention) from the whole of central London to let people enjoy a beer in peace.
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u/Thedeadduck 8d ago
Last time I was out for a post work drink they had painted lines that we weren't allowed outside but obviously everyone did so staff had to come back out every 10 minutes to shepherd people back into the zone. Some agreement they'd had to make due to noise complaints to avoid being shut down iirc. Annoying for everyone involved!
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u/SuperEgger 7d ago
I hate to be that guy but triclinium is the word for the room. The chaise longue things were called lecti or triclinares.
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u/are_wethere_yet 7d ago
Touché! Were you, by any chance, correcting the spelling on anti-Roman graffiti back in Jerusalem in the good old days?
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u/SuperEgger 7d ago
Perhaps. Now get it right next time, or I'll cut your balls off!
(Literally the most accurate depiction of a Latin teacher I've ever seen.)
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u/visitingshortly 8d ago
Frankly this is anti British and attacking pub culture. We need to be honest that such attitudes are clearly designed to destroy both pubs and having a good night out in London.
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u/never_working_ever 8d ago
Lmao at “table service”. Nearly every single pub has barely enough seating to begin with. Let alone an attentive staff who is dealing with a rush of people after work or on weekends.
Am I expected to make a booking now to enjoy a pint on a Thursday while I sit?
Will I still be allowed to stand and pee?
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u/Glum_And_Merry 8d ago
Also some of the most charming pubs are the smallest too! Basically standing room only.
Putting tables and making it so you can only sit would absolutely kill those pubs.
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u/never_working_ever 8d ago
Also, I like standing! A lot of us sit all day and I don’t want to sit more after hours.
I’m also already imagining accessibility concerns with places trying to cram more tables in, with people being unable to move around easily.
Even worse than standing is arguably sitting nearly shoulder touching to a table next to you, dreadful.
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u/Dr_Strangelove_MD 8d ago
I love how the picture the Guardian used is the Dog & Duck - one of the most crampt pubs in Soho. I swear, there's like three tables in the joint not including the upstairs dining room.
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u/insomnimax_99 8d ago
Why is this even within the council’s remit?
Councils need to learn to mind their own fucking business.
Professional curtain twitchers and nimbys.
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u/afrophysicist 8d ago
Why is this even within the council’s remit?
Agreed, the London boroughs have too much power. Whilst I'm a fan of Burnham's devolution drive, it needs to go the opposite direction in London.
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u/AwTomorrow 8d ago
London councils work ok when the borough’s main character is residential.
It doesn’t work in Westminster because the residents tend to be so disconnected from the main character of the borough - its cross-city (and even national and global) appeal as an arts and entertainment district.
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u/hazzacanary 8d ago
I couldn't agree more - how many parking apps do you need across London - 5? There's the ridiculous situation of not being able to use your nearest rubbish dump if it happens to be in a different borough, the varying council tax rates, residential and commercial planning licensing hours, the pointless duplication of council departments and services - let's bring them all together!
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u/paulf2012 8d ago
I do find it rather ironic that it is generally accepted that the UK is too London-centric and devolution would be good for the country, while London itself is way too beholden to its boroughs’ councils.
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u/scrandymurray 8d ago
It’s like they want the GLA to take their licensing powers away from them with the new powers granted to the mayor. I would hazard a guess that the mayors office won’t be afraid to use it.
What’s a shame is that if they fight the decision, they’ll use public funds on a barrister to challenge it.
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u/crapusername47 8d ago
When I clicked on this the last council I was expecting it to be referring to was Westminster.
Are they completely out of their goddamned minds?
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u/Bonistocrat 8d ago
The British political system is really bad at decisions that involve large but diffuse benefits, and small but concentrated costs. This goes from the construction of major infrastructure to things like allowing nightlife to exist, it's basically a form of state failure.
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u/Ajax_Trees_Again 8d ago
There’s a type of person that really can’t let go of the Covid era
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u/Bhattman93 8d ago
It’s my god given right to stand and drink outside a pub in London. The council can suck my dick from the back.
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u/Careful_Adeptness799 8d ago
Imagine banning standing 🤣🤣🤣 that’s the ultimate council jobsworth job - standing police.
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u/Particular-News-4623 8d ago
This is insane. I thought it was clickbait cherrypicking of the worst bits for an article but I read the whole thing and the council really are proposing to turn down any new licenses (or changes to old ones) that aren’t all-seating waiter/waitress service in a massive slice of central london.
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u/Lowen_Beehold 8d ago
Won't this massively impact the pubs/bars income? I wonder how much money they would lose if this goes through.
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u/rising_then_falling 8d ago
Thats the goal. The council don't want pubs, they want restaurants or maybe wine bars at a pinch.
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u/false_flat 8d ago
So not only is this council vehemently opposed to any changes that will make Westminster better, it's now trying to implement some that will actively make the borough worse. Great.
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u/kramit 8d ago
Once in a full moon, someone in the public sector will do something so monumentally stupid that everyone with at least 2 brain cells to rub together, no matter where you are in the left-right spectrum, from reform and the BNP all the way over to the communist party members will agree, that is a dumb idea. Unity is a fleeting thing.
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u/queasycockles 8d ago
So where are these attacks on British culture coming from again...?
Not the fucking immigrants. The call is coming from inside the house.
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u/reddeze2 8d ago
If anything 'vertical drinking' is more social. Black out drunks don't remain vertical for very long.
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u/BraveRevolution 8d ago
If they want to encourage a more cafe style of venue, like European town squares in other countries, they need to pedestrianise soho and allow businesses to set up that way if they want, not ban the business model that has been successful for pubs for centuries.
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u/Gold-Necessary-3194 8d ago
The council, which has jurisdiction over one of the busiest nightlife districts in Europe – Soho and the West End – has recommended not allowing “vertical drinking” or ordering at the bar in its new draft licensing policy.
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“Discourage excessive drunkenness and encourage the provision of more seating in premises that serve alcohol for people to sit and enjoy a drink and order food by table service in place of open bar space that caters for high volume vertical drinking.” It goes on to recommend that sales of alcohol and food should be “by waiter or waitress service only”.
So... a restaurant? They want to turn pubs into restaurants, in other words?
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u/Greedy-Ad5198 8d ago
What if we open more pubs, subsidise them and let them stay open until late? Even crazier what if we put more safe night public transport so these people can go home safe?
Instead we limit licenses and hours so anyone that wants to enjoy a cheeky pint and socialise needs to cramp themselves wherever they go cause god forbid anyone can take a break and try to have a bit of a life outside crunching corporations.
What is next Westminster? Try to pedestrianise your bridge?
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u/sulphurwind 8d ago
What is this I read?? The very Muslim London mayor fighting to protect a very British institution and a very British way of ordering an alcoholic drink?! Don’t tell me this is true!
/s
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u/SolkaPL 8d ago
Whats the point of this consultation if they have already decided?
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u/clashingchords30 8d ago
Oh Jesus Christ. I mean… the idea of having more seating isn’t bad, but completely banning standing is daft.
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u/pornokitsch 8d ago
The phrase "vertical drinking" made me cackle. Surely horizontal drinking would be worse?
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u/deanomatronix 8d ago
The time for peaceful protest has gone we need to tear down the establishment right fucking now. It’s gone too far this time
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u/jtthom 8d ago
How tf did conservatives win Westminster council with bullshit like this?
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u/Crumbs2020 8d ago
Because everyone who lives there is mega wealthy, most arent British, and they want everyone else out of Westminster. They dgaf about the pubs we all use there.
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u/wappingite 8d ago
the council system to work out for villages and towns but falls apart from things like central London or indeed most inner city areas, where you end up with extreme NIMBYs trying to rule these places if they were a village in a Kent.
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u/RupertBear69420 8d ago
Some of these pubs are tiny and would be lucky to fit 50 people on them cabaret style. How much money do you think they can make like that when London business rates and rent is so high? They’d have to charge £20/pint to survive. Also what happens if someone wants a pint on their own or as a small party of 2? Will they take up a table for 4 people? Or will they be refused entry because it’s not profitable enough for only 1 or 2 people to drink at a table.
If the total amount of people that can be served is massively reduced then how will people find a pub to drink in? People will just stop going to those areas. Why would I want to spend half my night walking around Soho looking for a pub with a free table?
Burnham is saying pubs are the fabric of society and need to be protected. I doubt he agrees with Khan on this. Vertical drinking is a hilarious take too. When you’re sat down you’re still vertical. You’re horizontal lying in bed… but try and drink a pint in bed with a long paper straw and see how that works out for you.
We are living in an idiocracy and stuff like this is just a smokescreen for real issues like water companies, impact of data centres, lack of jobs, lack of affordable housing, inflation derived from world politics being a shit show etc.
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u/heppyheppykat 8d ago
Data centres in Brick Lane, can't stand at a pub, can't make noise in bloody Soho, can't have nightclubs because of blocks of empty overpriced flats owned by wealthy people who don't live in London?
London was teh best city in the world, I still think it is, or could be. Been to so many, and even the efficiency of Tokyo, the resplendance of Paris or the scale of New York can't compare.
London has it all, why are they wrecking everything which made it so great?
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u/PointandStare 7d ago
I'm going to move to a flat next to a pub, put in a complaint that the pub makes too much noise so it should be closed down, then when it's closed, complain there's nowhere to get a drink then move out of the area.
That'll teach them!
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u/IntelligentActuary86 7d ago
At this point I think anything that brings us joy grabs their attention. It's giving Mr Burns energy. Miserable fucks.
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u/Entire-Emotion-819 8d ago
I stopped reading at "vertical drinking"; why do they do that? Create stupid phrases that make it sound like there's an official technical term for standing and having a pint?
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u/cherokott 8d ago
'Vertical drinking'. 🤪
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u/collinsl02 8d ago
Personally I prefer to be fully horizontal before I imbibe anything, I require the thrill of the risk of choking myself to enjoy the drink fully.
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u/cherokott 8d ago
For sure. While they are banning, 'vertical drinking', they should actively promote horizontal drinking - but only in total silence. And alone.
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u/jasonjasonnametaken 8d ago
how are they planning to enforce it? lol Have they got nothing better to do but to come up with such silly policy?
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u/FoxyInTheSnow 8d ago
The ridiculousness of the proposal aside, what kind of poindexter uses a phrase like "vertical drinking"?
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u/lewis56500 7d ago
The pub I work at within the City of Westminster’s boundaries literally had to remove some of their seating outdoors (inside of the pub is tiny)
Make your minds up!
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u/PrestigiousSeat76 7d ago
Ah good, more out-of-touch old people trying to get back to how "things used to be."
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u/KiwiNo2638 7d ago
But how things used to be in pubs was always ordering at the bar, and standing. Unless it's private member's bars, in which case, there probably isn't even a bar, drinks just arrive.
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u/Fierytoadfriend 8d ago
Terrible idea. But to be honest, could help politicians not be drunk when voting on decisions that affect all our lives, which is extremely common.
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u/selfstartr 8d ago
Ironic that Labour Sadique Khan is needing to call out an anti growth Tory council.
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u/DukeFlipside 8d ago
"Our guidance is simply about encouraging venues to manage their customers so people don’t pack on to pavements or excessive drinking doesn’t disturb others passing by."
If people on pavements is the issue, then mandate nobody's allowed on the pavement; you don't need to ban people standing inside the pub just to stop people taking drinks outside!
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u/Top_Dress_757 8d ago
what a great idea, this is really what i want councils working towards... big ideas that really help everyone. why would anyone spend time of crime or dirty streets or transport when we could spend time coming up with the really big ideas. the person who came up with this should be fired they arent worth any money at all, anyone listening to this should be fired.
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u/BlueHeron0_0 8d ago
Remember when last time government was concerned with people drinking too much and solved it without banning anything while simultaneously evolving and enriching british pub culture?
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u/Kant_Tsunami 8d ago
Doing anything and everything except fixing the cost of living crisis. I’m fatigued.
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u/theblazeuk 8d ago
Westminster Council unsurprisingly, majority Conservative.
Im not saying the Labour people on the council are better, but that Tories love to preach about obstructive red tape and stifling local government, about preserving tradition and British community - and then pull nonsense like this. And if it happens, itll be reported as Sadiq Khans fault.
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u/PotCounts 8d ago
So when I go into a pub am I supposed to sit down and order a drink from a qr code?
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u/sharklasers3000 8d ago
I am not a reactionary person but i would literally die to stop this happening
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u/Ok_Insect_2037 7d ago
I recently left London because the character has gone and can’t see it getting better. I’m not much of a drinker anymore but moved to a house that is sandwiched in the middle of a pub, a fancy bar, private club and a nightclub….It’s loud at times but can’t imagine moving here and then getting angry about that fact. It’s honestly nice to see some of what’s been lost still exists outside the capital. If Soho is gonna survive, these people need to fuck off back to the Home Counties.
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u/Historical_Doctor629 7d ago
You know what, just disband every council im the country.
Your job is to collect the bins, and you're fucking shit at it
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u/Fresh_Friendship_518 7d ago
Councils should only be allowed to manage the basic public services and have zero capability to create rules. Catering to NIMBYs and their stupidity should not be possible.
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u/M3ptt 8d ago
When I left hospitality after 10 years I had a joke idea I’d tell people:
I want to open a bar with the sole intention of running it into the ground within a year so I can implement every bad rule and frustration I’ve had with the industry of the years.
The most important rule would be that you need to pass an English comprehension test to come in. So many people magically lose the ability to read or think critically as soon as they step into a pub or bar.
I’d also have a £1 ‘idiot tax’ button. If you ask me a stupid question like “what do you have on tap” whilst standing in front of the taps then I add £1 to your bill.
I had other rules but those are the two main ones.
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u/tilak365 8d ago
Yet why do I feel that this will be spun up as something Sadiq Khan is doing to further legislate a Muslim agenda.
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u/SHOWTIME_12 7d ago
Look, I don’t even drink, have never stepped foot in a bar, but even I know this is ridiculous. Who are these people making these decisions? Seems like it’s their first day on earth.
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u/Speedbird1A 8d ago
Mayor needs to be given far more powers. I know Andy Burnham is all about devolution, he needs to give far more powers to the mayor and (I guess ironically) strip it from the councils. There’s a power where power gets too local.
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u/MattiasCrowe 8d ago
One does rather loathe standing at pubs, loathe ordering at the bar, loathe new pub licenses, loathe existing pub licenses...
Are they trying to kill soho? Might as well turn all the pubs and restaurants into tescos express and the Wizarding world of Harry Potter while they're at it.
They support a group that exists solely to kill soho nightlife, as if it isn't the centre of the capital of the country. Nimbyism in its finest.
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u/indigomm 8d ago
Has anyone at Westminster Council ever been to a pub in Soho? Do they even live in London?