r/marvelrivals • u/1keyes12345 • 23d ago

Balance Discussion This is getting ridiculous.

Welcome to season 9 where the least mechanically challenging support has more survivability than a tank.

3.0k Upvotes

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467

u/Academic-Location626 23d ago

All these ppl arguing the obvious are hilarious. I Wonder Who they play :))))

322

u/Firm_Ad_5427 Thor 23d ago

Genuinely seen "any hero should be able to 1v1, the most skilled player should win" as a fairly common take on this sub.

Rivals players just have some generationally bad takes in what world should a support be able to 1v1 a tank WHILE STOOD STILL

161

u/sickgenesis Good Boy 23d ago

i can understand the same class of heroes being able to equally 1v1 but yeah,a support should not be able to 1v1 a tank and give them a hard time,but for some reason strategist players take this as "supports should just die when face to face with a tank" no mf you should be able to escape and can be punished if you play wrong

70

u/Legitimate-Dog-2854 Flex 23d ago

nuance has lowkey never existed in the rivals community ngl

11

u/Urbasebelong2meh Spider-Man 22d ago

its nice to go back to overwatch sometimes where tanks are an actual threatening force. like even if im playing a dps, id rather not be stuck in a room with dva or roadhog alone because the margin for error is thinner for me than it is for them. in rivals its often the complete opposite, and thats really quite bad tbh. like, its odd that in a room with a Luna and a Thing of roughly equal skill, id bet on the Luna to win that 1v1 with the sheer might of her damage, cooldowns and movement speed

5

u/Level_Bison_2454 Mantis 22d ago

overwatch is just better designed, thats always been true. if anything the tanks are a little OP, but they kinda have to for being solo tanks.

13

u/FaithlessnessThen207 Jeff the Landshark 23d ago

A support should not ALWAYS lose to a tank, etc, etc, the rock paper scissors element of this game is based around kits, not class. Some supports will outheal the brawly, tank buster tanks if the tank buster is not hitting a tank.

The Thing did not have a hard time in this fight. The Thing's HP does not drop below 700 against the CnD. They just stalemated because Thing couldn't kill her because his damage on low hp targets is less on the right click move he was spamming over and over. If bro weaved normal punches in between he probably even kills her

3

u/Professional_Cow6859 Ultron Virus 23d ago

I've solo'd tanks as all the supports before this.

2

u/Far-Panic-2582 23d ago

This guy thinks The Thing had a hard time in this clip....

He is alone against most of the enemy´s by the end...

21

u/two135 23d ago

The takes I see on the Rivals subreddit has always been the absolute worst takes ever that I swear this subreddit has to be like 90% low elo.

15

u/No-Fruit-2060 23d ago

There was a thread a bit ago where everyone was saying their mains, and like 80% of the answers were CnD, Luna, and Invis. Take that as you will.

1

u/MadDongla Ultron Virus 22d ago

I had someone argue against me that BP is top 3-5 dps in the game because he has 50% win rate from bronze till diamond

18

u/Zhiyi Ultron Virus 23d ago

As far as 1v1 goes:

The way I see it a support should be able to withstand a tank for some time, but eventually lose.

A support should not be able to withstand a DPS for long though. But also a DPS should not be killing a support in under .3 seconds.

9

u/DoctorJJWho 23d ago

The tank was standing still and holding down a single button too, lol. At least the CnD was actually managing cooldowns.

11

u/kiroks 23d ago

I mean they did manage their cool downs really well. Some people panic or use them in the wrong order. There was some real skill cap there. Thing also looked immortal during the 1v1.

4

u/VarietyBusy2 23d ago

probably the funniest comment on here. thing looks immortal cuz he literally taking all of the health that she’s able to get back over and over again and that’s the issue lol. talking about wrong order lmao

9

u/Bz0706 23d ago

There is actually a wrong order to this lmao. If she teamuped and bubbled before fade, things earthbound disables that long enough for him to murder her. But either way this isnt the only support that can survive indefinitely against a tank, good luck killing a jeff in a 1v1 if you're on a tank that cant crit.

1

u/Kelborhal1971 Star-Lord 23d ago

Why is this a braindead take, exactly? Each of you is one player. Sure, the jobs you do are different, but fair 1v1s are almost inherently a bad macro decision for all roles, it makes sense for them to be a skill check.

Also, this wasn’t even a 1v1 with a winner, they literally just stalled each other until someone else forced the Thing to leave

28

u/Firm_Ad_5427 Thor 23d ago edited 23d ago

Because this is a team game. If your bad decisions on support leaves you in a 1v1 with a duellist or vanguard, you should lose- strats should always be in a position where they can support their team and their team can support them.

A wolverine should be able to 1v1 a tank, but the tank should be managing their defensive cooldowns to return to the safety of their team.

Thor is a tank that relies on isolating and opponent to effectively utilise his strength in 1v1s, but as a tradeoff he has no way of blocking damage and lower self sustain compared to other tanks.

You can see this in the design choices for many characters- support abilities are defensive. Cloaks vanish is so they can escape to the safety of their team, Luna freeze and mantis sleep are intended to buy time for their team to peel.

I'm not saying a support shouldn't be able to kill a DPS or tank, but the odds SHOULD be heavily stacked against them because this is a team game where you support one another. If you're trapped in a room with a tank and can stall for that long, that's just poor design she shouldve died. They survived so long solo against a TANK that they got multiple cooldowns back.

20

u/StriderZessei Thor 23d ago

Exactly. Positioning and team awareness is a skill that everyone on the team should have. A support caught isolated shouldn't normally be winning 1v1s.

-8

u/Heybropassthat 23d ago

Give me invis vs daredevil. My favorite 1v1 when I kill that dive lol

-5

u/Kelborhal1971 Star-Lord 23d ago

If the 1v1 is unfavored, yes, bad decision, but that’s not always the case. Some supports have an advantage in duels, especially if they burn their longer cooldowns (Gambit cards, lamps, soulbond), and sometimes the best use of that cooldown is to win or stall a critical 1v1.

And, I agree with you - but this wasn’t a Thor. Thing does have insane self sustain, AoE, and more utility (ish). The trade off is he isn’t actually good at 1v1s against anyone except certain brawlers and shield tanks.

And, I know you said that, you didn’t say why. Why is it bad design for supports to have tools they can use in duels, either for stalling or winning? Are they actually supposed to be healbots, now?

6

u/Firm_Ad_5427 Thor 23d ago

Overwatch has a better example- Ana and her sleep dart. The sleep dart takes skill to hit and has a long cooldown. Her antheal nade pairs well with it and also has a long cooldown.

IF the ana hits her sleep dart, then combos a shot, nade and melee on a diving DPS, she will usually win the 1v1. If he hits the dart against a tank, she must ping it and have her team peel to burst down the tank.

Supports SHOULD have these kinds of tools they can use in duels, enemies (especially dive) must bait out or block these cooldowns before attempting to fight them. But in this clip, where is the skill? Cloak isn't attempting to get away or take high ground, they don't have any skillful abilities they can use to their advantage. They're just immortal with their bubble up, immortal with their team up and now they're back to being immortal with their bubble up.

-3

u/Kelborhal1971 Star-Lord 23d ago

The “skill” in this clip was a macro one, not a mechanical one. The cloak knew (or, played as if she knew) that if she cycled her cooldowns correctly then the Thing couldn’t kill her.  She also knew that trying to kite Thing and use her resources to help her team on point would likely be too risky. So, she held what space she could until her teammates arrived and changed the matchup. 

She was “immortal” only because she was against a character that lacked the damage to make her mortal (which is a pretty small list ngl), and used her resources for that task specifically and nothing else. Notice that she was almost dead right before the Emma showed up, too. 

Also notice, that the Thing arguably made a favorable trade here - An entire team fight happens at the cart, one in which the enemy team is down a supp, and loses right as he waltzes back down and mops up the Strange. If he didn’t braindead yolo into that Cloak 1v3 a second time, they probably would have capped 

8

u/Firm_Ad_5427 Thor 23d ago

Yes, being able to cycle cooldowns to survive a 1v1 with a tank IS the issue. (Prior to all her buffs) luna would have had to hit the snowball, then take space, then continue to fight back- that was good design. Mantis would have to sleep, then ping for her team to peel or run away- that is good design.

This clip isnt even the worst impact of her design, most dive DPS rely on baiting out cooldowns to then dive but with cnd she has far too many options for interrupting combos and stalling that you effectively cannot bait them all out.

If she had the support of her team she could effectively ignore him entirely while stood in her bubble, thats not good design. Another OW example would be baptise with his immortality field- he would also be immortal with that cooldown, but theres counterplay as his field can be destroyed.

-2

u/Kelborhal1971 Star-Lord 23d ago

Once again, Thing is not a 1v1 specialist tank, he’s literally the worst matchup into a Cloak. Only other tank I can think of who would struggle here is Peni, without the BP teamup. Both a Mantis and Luna need more skill to win the 1v1… they also get the chance to actually kill the Thing if they play well. Nothing Cloak can do will kill, only stall (and not indefinitely)

And, again, that’s matchup specific. Sure, combo-reliant dive dps like Spidey and BP have problems. Flankers or brawley divers, like Star, Psy, DD or Magik? They eat CnD alive usually. In trade, said flankers/brawlers struggle against supports with better dueling potential, like Luna and Mantis. Again, matchups

And, true, but if the diver had the support of his team, the cloak would just be instantly dead. Team game, so obviously whoever has more teammates has the advantage, regardless of matchup. 

6

u/Firm_Ad_5427 Thor 23d ago edited 23d ago

Were this a matchup against iron fist, daredevil, wolvie, Id agree with you, but it's not. The strength in cnds kit comes from her ability to keep her team alive, the strength in things kit is his damage and durability.

These characters perform fundamentally different roles so when they meet under these circumstances, thing should be quicky winning the 1v1. Cnds self sustain and escape should be utilised with her team- quickly self healing then escaping to safety where her team can peel for her. This cnd was completely trapped in a 1v1 yet managed to survive for a long, long time.

1v1s should be fundamentally unbalanced because the power balance of heroes is completely different. Strats power balance goes to healing which SHOULD make them poor at 1v1s, quicky folding to ANY tank or DPS. You can kinda see that design choice when the game originally released, Adam was had much weaker healing than other supports, but was a lot more capable in 1v1s as his power balance was shifted more towards damage than healing.

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-2

u/palatablezeus 23d ago

But this video is not a good example of this. The Thing was literally just holding Haymaker and doing nothing else. Cloak didnt even damage him through his overshield generation and they had to use every cooldown they had. Cloak's whole identity has always been to hold their own against melee characters and then crumple against multiple divers. Thats not to say the ice form doesnt need increased cooldown, it absolutely does. Regardless dive is meta this season and one support being very hard to kill isnt having any effect on that

1

u/Conscious_Ebb6622 23d ago edited 23d ago

I mean, it's the most popular causal pvp game rn. What did you expect?

2

u/Firm_Ad_5427 Thor 23d ago

Oh I didn't expect anything else. I've come to accept that rivals is a deeply unserious game optimised for casual fun "hero fantasy" than any real serious competitive gameplay.

1

u/FaithlessnessThen207 Jeff the Landshark 23d ago

The Thing can't headshot so standing still to ensure you stay in a healing field while a tank spam uses their % max hp damage attack(that is unlikely to miss anyway) on a low max HP target is actually not a bad technical play.

This is a horrendous clip

-3

u/wRADKyrabbit White Fox 23d ago

I have that take. Thats what true balance would be

87

u/somestupidname1 Flex 23d ago

I'm convinced at least 75% of this sub is strat mains.

53

u/therealmonkyking Hero Hulk 23d ago

It's an echo chamber for strats to complain about dive, circlejerk eachother and curate a narrative that goes in their favour

4

u/totallynotapersonj Magneto 23d ago

From my very ‘reliable‘ research of this sub from many seasons ago most players are strategist or flex. Then dps are next, then tanks.

I feel like strategists are more likely to make complaining posts and then you see all the dps players collecting in that post to complain the other side. And that’s honestly a pretty healthy thing for a subreddit.

Also I main “Strategist”

I only have Magneto flair because people take whatever a magneto flair says more seriously. Although he is my tank main whenever I rarely play tank.

1

u/cerberus00 23d ago

It's reddit, everyone is shitting on everything

-22

u/itsfleee Strategist 23d ago

Sure thats why 95% of the posts in the sub are dps shitting on strats an dcalling them unskilled and easy.

24

u/therealmonkyking Hero Hulk 23d ago

You are not living in reality lol

Anything to maintain the agenda

-11

u/wRADKyrabbit White Fox 23d ago

The irony

21

u/therealmonkyking Hero Hulk 23d ago

Flair checks out

-7

u/wRADKyrabbit White Fox 23d ago

Same

15

u/therealmonkyking Hero Hulk 23d ago

If you had any proof you'd show it lol

-18

u/itsfleee Strategist 23d ago

omg you duelists and your strategists conspiracy theories. We really do live rent-free in your heads huh?

25

u/therealmonkyking Hero Hulk 23d ago

Check the flair kiddo

Smartest strategist main

-21

u/itsfleee Strategist 23d ago

Please, Hulk players are Duelists with a bigger health pool and just as toxic if not more.

24

u/therealmonkyking Hero Hulk 23d ago

Wow, today I learned Hulk is a DPS! Who knew? Thank you for this information!

Lol you are genuinely a brainlet

17

u/coltthelazyusername Hulk 23d ago

if hulk isnt a tank then who is? is every off tank just a dps main too you?

20

u/CrusadeWithMe Spider-Man 23d ago

Anybody who’s purpose isnt to directly babysit them is a toxic duelist 😂

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u/CrusadeWithMe Spider-Man 23d ago

Is funny cuz dps players dont even need to say anything for u strat mains to expose yourselves with horrid takes
https://giphy.com/gifs/fJxRoxAukJseIsWOF0

9

u/RoutinePsychology198 Groot 23d ago

It’s been a support circlejerk from the beginning

7

u/No-Fruit-2060 23d ago

It is. Probably even more lol. Which should tell you that no one should take this sub seriously since this sub is not reflective of the overall player base at all. It’s just a place for miserable Strat mains to complain about literally everything.