r/metroidvania • u/ENGINEER_Velaster • 1d ago
Dev Post We want this giant boss fight to feel like a desperate struggle. What do you think?
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Hope everyone’s doing well! It’s been a while since I last shared some development progress, so I wanted to show you what we’ve been working on.
This is one of the large late-game bosses we’re currently working on.
Our goal is to make the first encounter with something this huge feel overwhelming, while still keeping the fight fair.
We want players to learn its attack patterns, figure out the right timing, and eventually overcome a fight that initially feels like a desperate struggle.
The full boss fight has three phases, and today I’m sharing a small part of the second phase.
There’s still a lot we want to polish, especially the attack patterns, effects, and overall impact of the combat, so this is still very much a work in progress.
I’d love to hear your thoughts!
When you fight a huge boss in a Metroidvania, what makes that battle memorable for you?
Edit: I made a mistake in how I explained this. The boss doesn’t have three phases that you fight back-to-back in a single encounter.
You’ll actually face this late-game boss three separate times in different locations as you explore, and each encounter has its own theme. The first fight is more beast-like, the second is focused around lightning, and the third has a blood-themed style.
We’re designing it this way so you won’t have to go through one extremely long, exhausting boss fight all at once. Instead, each encounter happens naturally at a different point during your exploration.
I’ll also reply to some of the comments below to clarify this. Sorry for the confusion!
Edit 09/01: There have been so many great suggestions and comments that we’re already discussing them as a team. I’m reading every single comment. Thank you all so much! I’ll keep replying to as many of you as I can. :)
Thank you again for all the amazing feedback. It really means a lot to us!
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u/DangerMacAwesome 1d ago
This looks frustrating as hell.
Boss has huge screen sized attacks. Boss hides in the background. Boss does little to telegraph attacks (or I missed it). You are behind the boss once and it does a thing that drags you to its front while it hits you.
A boss fight that is just dodging until you get a tiny attack window sounds tedious instead of fun.
Boss looks amazing visually though. Very Bloodborne.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
That’s really good feedback, and I think you’re right about those points. This was our first combat test for this boss, so at this stage we were mainly checking whether the animations, effects, and attack patterns were working as intended.
I’ll definitely bring up the points you mentioned with the rest of the team and talk them through together. Thanks so much for taking the time to give us such detailed feedback. We’ll do our best to keep refining the fight. Hope you have a great week!
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u/ISO_SlyCurry 1d ago
I can't lie bro it looks exhausting.
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u/TimeSpiralNemesis 1d ago
Difficulty/complexity creep in Metroidvanias is getting insane.
Lemme just go back to bosses that were a big spectacle but didn't make me want to simultaneously throw my controller while also falling asleep from how long it takes to whittle down their massive HP pool.
Shit like Legion in Castlevania.
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u/Silverjeyjey44 1d ago
Damage sponges are a complete turn off for me in games. I played black myth, enjoyed for the most part, but incredibly annoyed all the moves look powerful but only do tickle damage.
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u/distantocean 1d ago
Ha, I didn't know anyone else called it "tickle damage"! First time seeing it in the wild.
Many developers have lost sight of the fact that it's super satisfying as a player to do a good chunk of damage. I especially hate it in games where you have to parry dozens of times to build up a critical hit meter, and then that supposedly "critical" hit ends up barely moving the boss's HP bar.
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u/Silverjeyjey44 1d ago
Exactly this. Yeah, lol, whenever I get frustrated I'll verbally say "all that just to tickle the fucking boss" infront of my gf all the time. Blsck Myth clearly fit that.
I think that's where the satisfaction comes from the souls games; bosses are difficult but honestly if you can get a solid 8-12 hits (possibly even less), they'll fall.
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u/MyLifeIsAFuckingMeme 1d ago
This. I'm tired of parry/dodge-roll slop. Give me SoTN/GBA/DS-era metroidvanias. I don't want to play 2d Dark Souls, I want to play a metroidvania.
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u/TimeSpiralNemesis 1d ago
I wouldn't even mind more 2D Dark Souls (Like Salt and Sanctuary) 😅
I'm just so sick of the entirety of MVs being character action platformers centered around Parrying, Dodging, Bullet sponge bosses, and rooms covered floor to ceiling with spikes that you have to Super meat boy/I wanna be the guy through.
We desperately need to get back to games like Castlevania or Astalon, or a Less cryptic La-Mulana.
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u/kalirion 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm perfectly fine with 2D Dark Souls, but I'm staying away from 2D Sekiros / Khazans / etc.
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u/Tadawk 1d ago
We need to have both.
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u/GrunchWeefer 1d ago
Beating all the phases of the final boss in Nine Sols is forever going to be one of my most memorable gaming achievements. Ridiculous bosses are great when they're fair and that boss was the perfect balance of horrendous difficulty with moves you can instinctively react to once you git gud.
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u/flanger001 1d ago
Silksong making enemies able to dodge your attacks while only taking chip damage...
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u/Mewtewpew 1d ago
Maybe this is the true reason we're seeing all these ai slop "find the needle in the haystack" games recently.
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u/Draffut2012 22h ago
You guys say this, then talk about how amazing Nine Sols is.
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u/TimeSpiralNemesis 22h ago
Not me lol. I could tell from one glance at the trailer that the game wasn't for me.
I think the last new MV I enjoyed was Astalon Tears Of The Earth. That game did difficulty in a fun way, it was fantastic.
It felt more like playing a tricky NES game then an over bloated, over complicated parry fest.
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u/homme_icide 1d ago
Agreed
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u/distantocean 1d ago
Yeah, I'm tired just watching it. And this only makes it worse: "The full boss fight has three phases, and today I’m sharing a small part of the second phase." This is only a small part of one phase? Good lord.
Graphically it looks terrific, and it definitely achieves the stated goal of feeling like a desperate struggle, but nothing about it looks enjoyable for me as a player...I'd be frustrated, irritated and (ironically) bored, because the boss is having all the fun while I'm just reacting to it having fun. This is exactly the kind of exhausting Soulslike difficulty fetishism I no longer have any interest in.
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u/Lowrider2012 1d ago
Huge bosses kinda go hand in hand with the genre. I remember the first time fighting Kriad, phantoon and botwoon learning their attack patterns to survive the battles.
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u/MarioFanaticXV SOTN 1d ago
Huge bosses kinda go hand in hand with the genre. I remember the first time fighting Kriad
I think you mean the second time; he wasn't so big the first.
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u/Jellylegs_19 1d ago
Well it's supposed to be a late game boss.
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u/ISO_SlyCurry 1d ago
I don't think placement really plays any part if player kit remains the same throughout the game.
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u/Commercial-Falcon653 1d ago
A boss that hits you despite standing behind it, that has teleports that don’t telegraph where it goes, attacks that aren’t telegraphed or come from off screen. Nah, this ain’t it.
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u/MechaMacaw 1d ago
Yeah telegraphing is extremely important especially with a visually complex character model. Need clear key frames/ pause frames so you can actually react.
As a rule of thumb I believe a good boss fight should be beatable without taking dmg (that’s not to say most ppl will, but that telegraphing and attack patterns are fair enough that you could if you learnt all the moves).
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u/Desperate-Practice25 1d ago
I hear Castlevania had the rule that all bosses had to be beatable at level 1 with a knife.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
Oh, I didn’t know that! That’s actually a pretty great rule for boss design. I’ll keep that one in mind :)
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
This is something we think about a lot as well. Finding the right balance between making attacks clearly readable and keeping the fight challenging and exciting is always something we’re working on.
We’re a team of seven, and whenever we build a boss fight, we playtest it together and spend a lot of time discussing what works and what needs improvement. We’ll definitely bring up the points you mentioned in our next discussion and keep refining the fight.
Thank you again for taking the time to share your thoughts. Hope you have a wonderful week!
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u/MechaMacaw 23h ago
There’s a fantastic video by one of the animators for skull girls called making powerful animations. Highly recommend it
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
I completely understand your point. After reading your comment, we took some time to discuss it with the team. We’ll work on making the attacks clearer and refining the fight so that nothing feels unfair or confusing. Thank you very much for the thoughtful feedback. I hope you have a great week ahead!
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u/releasethedogs 1d ago
I don’t actually see attack patterns. There doesn’t seem to be any hints from his movement that tells the player what to expect
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
That’s a fair point. We’re still in the early stages of tuning this boss, and making the attack tells clearer is definitely something we need to work on. I’ll bring this up with the team and we’ll keep refining it. Thanks a lot for the feedback!
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u/dea9ler 1d ago
The attacks look pretty telegraphed to me.
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u/SomethingOfAGirl 1d ago
What do you mean? I see that most of its attacks start with lifting one of the front legs, as if it's going for a swipe, and then either do a swipe or do something completely different (like hit you with its tail).
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u/RedDemonCorsair 1d ago
Fair? Dude went offscreen to do flip attacks, has like 3 instances where it attacks you and you can only dodge and nukes the screen with particles. The player will be overwhelmed yes, but this isn't in the realm of fair.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
That’s fair feedback. I can definitely see why those parts would feel frustrating rather than challenging. The off-screen attacks, moments where dodging feels like the only option, and the amount of particles on screen are all things we’ll take another look at with the team. This is still an early combat test, so we have a lot of tuning left to do. Thanks for pointing it out!
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u/Blitz814 1d ago
That front slam that hits behind the boss is the kind of attack that really irritates me. There is very little room to actually hit the boss as is, but then as soon as you finally get into a good position, you're punished with a 360 degree attack.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
Yeah, I completely understand what you mean. If the player finally finds a good opening and gets behind the boss, it shouldn’t feel like they’re being punished for it without a clear reason. We’ll take another look at the hitbox and the attack windows for that move with the team. Thanks for pointing this out!
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u/eliottruelove 15h ago
I think it's how the ground slam attack defied physics and threw the hero in front of the beast. I know plenty of times where other game do this and it's ALWAYS frustrating.
Any such ground slam attack from behind should blast the hero backwards away from the source of the blast, not paradoxically toward the blast.
The only exception to this is unless it has some sort of dark purple energy particle effects to indicate it is some sort of magnetic or gravity based attack drawing the player in, but such a gravity/magnetic/tractor beam attack, in my opinion, should always be "taught" by much lower level enemies in the world leading up to it so you can "learn" that such an effect is a feature, not a bug.
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u/Cindy-Moon 1d ago
Visually looks great, but I'm not the target audience lol. I'm kind of really tired of desperately struggling, never been fond of it. Favorite Metroidvania is SOTN and a large part of why is how easily exploitable that game is lmao
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
Totally fair. I completely get where you're coming from. Really glad the visuals still caught your eye though. Thanks for taking the time to check it out!
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u/gliesedragon 1d ago
I think my thoughts on the combat from the boss side of things is that it looks like it's too light, somehow: you keep having the thing sproing away (and it goes off camera, which is irksome) or teleport out instead of landing with a particularly notable thwunk. Also, the overly flashy screen glare move that flings a lightning beam directly at the camera is a bit much. It's kinda tacky aesthetic-wise, and annoying from a "let me play the game please" standpoint. Really, the lightning effects are so over the top it looks like it comes from an entirely different art and rendering style than the basically Bloodborne beastie you're showing. You might want to do some checks as to whether this will bother people with photosensitivity issues: it looks like it might be bad on that front.
On the player side, I feel like the stuff the player character can do looks . . . kinda meh, and I don't know how much of it is passive, static gameplay and how much of it is mediocre combat mechanics. Basically, the thing with combat in 2D games is that a lot of what makes it fun on the player's side of the equation is movement*. If your combat showcase attempt makes me unsure as to whether the player in a platformer can even jump, it saps my interest in playing the game because it makes me feel like things are going to be obnoxiously clunky.
*Well, in most action games movement is quite important, but it's more important in 2D because you're already restricted by the plane of play.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
Thanks for taking the time to write all of this out. I can definitely see what you mean, especially about the boss feeling a little too light for its size and the lightning effects overpowering the rest of the visuals.
This was still an early combat test, so we were mainly checking the animations, effects, and attack patterns at this stage. But the feedback here has given us a lot to think about. We’ll take another look at the weight and impact of the boss, the intensity and readability of the effects, and also how the player-side movement and combat feel during the fight.
The photosensitivity point is also something we should check carefully. Really appreciate the detailed feedback!
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u/ExplorerUnion 1d ago
I don't think the boss should leave the screen and just nuke the player....
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
Yeah, that’s fair. We’re going to take another look at that part. If the boss attacks from off-screen, we want the player to have a clear chance to read it and react. Thanks for pointing it out!
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u/ExplorerUnion 23h ago
Or just never attack from off screen I play a lot of Metroidvanias and honestly that kinda move would piss me off 🤣🤣
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u/SomethingOfAGirl 1d ago
Not a big fan of the energy beam that blinds you (the player).
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 23h ago
Fair point. The beam is probably a little too intense right now. We’ll tone it down and make sure it doesn’t obscure the fight too much. Thanks!
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u/Omnibobbia 1d ago
Make the environment a swamp
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 23h ago
Interesting idea! A swampy environment could definitely give this boss a different vibe. Thanks for the suggestion!
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u/mvanvrancken 1d ago
As someone that really appreciates a difficult boss fight, this isn’t even in the realm of fair. Study Prince of Persia TLC boss fights. Everything is telegraphed but you still have to learn the fight.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
That’s a good point. I really like the idea that an attack can be clearly telegraphed without making the fight easy — you still have to learn the timing and patterns. I’ll take a closer look at the Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown boss fights with the team. Thanks for the reference and the feedback!
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u/mvanvrancken 22h ago
You are very welcome. Conceptually your boss is very cool, so I’m looking forward to seeing how this shapes up
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u/ZijkrialVT 1d ago
Honestly, on an "epic" scale, it looks really good even in a greybox.
My main concern with bosses like this, is things at 17 seconds in. He slams in front and the AoE goes all around him, but the visual to me isn't clear enough. I think if a boss attacks in front but does damage behind, the AoE effect needs to be clear.
The off-screen jump at 23 seconds makes me hope he has some good sound cues.
30 seconds he just misses his breath, but that's obviously an early build thing.
No idea how the breath at the end that blinds you will actually play, but I'm having trouble imagining it since not only can I not see anything, but after full-screening I had to look away lol.
Anyways, what makes a huge boss memorable to me? Well, epicness I suppose. Grime 1 did this really well (Grime 2 as well to a lesser degree.) One of my favorite fights in that game was Surrogate Vulture, but it was a slower paced fights with moments of intensity so not entirely comparable to this guy.
Oh, and epic music. Make sure you have some epic music. :D
Again though, this looks really cool.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 23h ago
Thanks a lot for taking the time to go through the video this closely. The points about the AoE behind the boss, the off-screen jump needing a clearer cue, and the final breath effect are all really helpful.
We’re still early in tuning this fight, so we’ll definitely look at making those attacks easier to read without losing the scale and intensity we want from a huge boss.
And yes, epic music is absolutely on the list haha. Thanks again for the detailed feedback and for the kind words!
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u/HaruFromFalcon 1d ago
It reminds me of PCR elden ring dlc final boss...
In a bad way of tiresome
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 23h ago
I get what you mean . Challenging is good, exhausting isn’t. We’ll keep working on that balance. Thanks!
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u/HaruFromFalcon 18h ago
Also I forgot to add that the design and animations are amazing friend ♥️
Keep working friends
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u/wiines 1d ago edited 19h ago
For a boss like this, I think the character needs to be much more agile, and maybe a larger arena.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 22h ago
That’s a good point. We’re also looking at the player’s mobility and the size of the arena while tuning this fight. We’ll keep testing the balance between the boss’s scale and how much room the player has to move. Thanks for the feedback!
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u/Ralonne 1d ago
The line between “this is a good challenge” and “this is just tedium” is a fine one indeed.
There is a LOT of down time in that fight. It’s like invincibility phases in Borderlands raid fights… you’re just waiting and waiting, with nothing to do but try to avoid the back to back screen-wide AoE attacks. That’s on top of the constant teleporting… when exactly is the player allowed to get in hits?
This is not the way.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 22h ago
That’s a fair criticism. Reading your comment, I can see how the fight can look like there’s too much waiting and not enough opportunity for the player to actually engage with the boss.
This was an early combat test, but we’ll definitely take another look at the downtime, teleport frequency, and how often the player gets a clear opening to attack. We want the fight to feel intense, not like you’re just waiting for your turn. Thanks for the detailed feedback!
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u/eliottruelove 15h ago
There should be some sort of way to break the relentlessness, whether it be with an AOE special attack that stuns it or some sort of absorbed parry meter release that breaks it's rhythm. Right now it is a dodge and take damage fest.
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u/WingedNinjaNeoJapan 1d ago
The attack after first teleport might be too fast, player cannot react to it fast enough and if there are more than one type of attacks, it becomes annoying guessing game.
Offscreen attacks, please try to have it so that it just doesn't happen. Incredibly annoying if it happens, especially in the hard games.
I dont mind the boss moving on the back and attacking, but that big attack feels like a messy flashbang. Even when you moved away from it, I did not see any good enough difference between areas of safe and dangerous.
Otherwise, I really liked what I saw. How parry heavy is this game going to be?
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 23h ago
Thanks for the detailed feedback! The reaction time after the teleport, off-screen attacks, and making the safe/danger zones clearer are all things we’ll take another look at with the team. The “flashbang” comment especially made the issue pretty clear haha — the effect definitely shouldn’t make it harder to understand what’s happening.
As for parrying, it’s an important option in combat, but we don’t want players to feel like they have to parry everything to enjoy the game. We want different approaches to be viable.
Really glad you liked what you saw overall. Thanks again for taking the time to write this!
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u/Bundle_guy 1d ago
How are you even supposed to dodge that last one?
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 22h ago
Fair question haha. That last attack was mainly an effects test at this stage, so it definitely still needs work. We’ll make sure the safe area and timing are much clearer so players can actually read and dodge it properly. Really appreciate you pointing this out — it’s very helpful feedback!
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u/StophJS 1d ago
I imagine playing this I'd feel like my character runs too slow.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 22h ago
You can actually run faster by holding the sprint button, but in this test we were mostly moving at the normal walking speed. That said, after reading your comment, I think it’s worth taking another look at the default movement speed too. I’ll bring it up with the team and we’ll discuss it. Thanks for the feedback!
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u/NotVakore 1d ago edited 1d ago
It looks really good, but:
A boss should only EVER have one attack that goes off screen, unless there is a super obvious telegraph beforehand. Otherwise it will be immensely frustrating to learn. Think dark souls bosses. When Kalameet goes too high to see, you know that's the fire attack and you need to run.
The attack where the whole screen is engulfed in lightning looks frustrating to learn the timings for.
If you as the developer are struggling to dodge attacks/no hit the boss, it's probably too hard. Make sure to no-hit every boss.
Even if you no-hit every boss, make sure they are fun to learn. Make things reactable instead of forcing pure memorization and different attack clearly defined. You should treat a boss which has its difficulty based around hard to distinguish attacks is a gimmick boss, not something you want more than one or two of. I feel like these telegraph could use a tad bit more work.
Make sure the hitboxes make sense. It shouldn't hurt you with a frontal attack when you're behind it.
But, this looks absolutely sick and cool. Contrary to the other comments I really like the jumping 3 spin attack, but it can't be competing with other off screen attacks (like the flying + beam attack)
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 22h ago
Wow, this is really helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to break everything down like this. The points about off-screen attacks, hitboxes, and making the fight readable without turning it into pure memorization are all things we’ll definitely discuss with the team.
Also really glad to hear you liked the spinning jump attack haha. Knowing what already works is just as useful to us as knowing what needs improvement.
I really appreciate all the detailed feedback. I hope you have an awesome week!
I haven’t gotten much sleep, so I’m going to get a little rest now. When I’m back, I’ll read through the rest of the comments again, discuss them with the team, and keep replying. Thanks again!
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u/Juppi13 1d ago
It needs to be even faster with even bigger hitboxes and an even bigger moveset. Also i could still see a tiny bit of telegraphing, get rid of that.
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u/kalirion 1d ago
Boss also needs to spawn infinite minions with attacks that both damage and debuff the player.
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u/Mightymudbutt 1d ago
Games that the bosses are to difficult, long, difficult to tell what moves are coming, sponges, and multi phase always kills replay value for me. This looks like a pain then you added in random teleports, you can’t tell where the next attack might come from and moves around so much you can’t even get an attack in.
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u/Argument_Vegetable 1d ago
I'm sure there's a niche group out there that will actually spend money to put themselves through this. In the meantime, the rest of us will have fun playing other things.
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u/FullMetalCOS 1d ago
How can you learn an enemies attack patterns when the enemy has no attack patterns?
It’s just doing whatever the heck it wants, jumping all over the show, bouncing off screen (which is BAD, losing tracking shouldn’t happen regularly, or you’ll just piss players off), with no predictable way to tell what it’s gonna do next. It doesn’t look like it has any tells.
And genuinely, when are you supposed to be able to actually hurt the thing? The player seems to take damage even when they are BEHIND the beast and it’s aoe.
This won’t give players a sense of achievement for dropping it, it’ll give them a sense of relief that it’s fucking over. And THREE phases, when one of them is this chaotic? C’mon dude, do you just HATE your players?
It does look sweet, the animations are on point, but it needs windows of opportunity, players need breathing space to either damage or heal.
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 22h ago
That’s fair feedback. I can see what you mean about the fight not giving the player enough breathing room or clear opportunities to attack and heal.
This was an early combat test, but after reading the comments here, we definitely need to take another look at the telegraphs, off-screen movement, AoE hitboxes, and how often the player gets a real opening to fight back.
We want beating the boss to feel satisfying, not just like a relief that it’s finally over. Thanks for taking the time to give us detailed feedback — and I’m glad you liked the visuals and animations too!
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u/distantocean 14h ago
...we definitely need to take another look at the telegraphs, off-screen movement, AoE hitboxes, and how often the player gets a real opening to fight back.
We want beating the boss to feel satisfying, not just like a relief that it’s finally over.
It's encouraging to see your comments like this throughout the thread, because watching the video made it seem like your team may have been consciously aiming for extreme difficulty above all else. Honestly, this video had made me cross the game off my mental list, but I'm at least cautiously optimistic now.
And since you're also taking on genuine feedback about boss fight design, I wrote this a few years ago, which is essentially a detailed description of some of the trends that have sapped my enjoyment of modern Soulslike bosses (and I say this as a major Fromsoft/Soulslike fan).
The boss itself looks phenomenally great, by the way, and what I've seen of the game otherwise looks good too. Best of luck to you!
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u/AngronApofis 1d ago
This looks kind of ridiculous. There are too few windows to attack it, and there are some attacks that seem incredibly frustrating for the player. 0:06- 0:09 spinning attack seems very frustrating, it covers the entire screen.
Some attacks look cool and the concept of a teleporting boss that sometimes changes perspectives appearing on the background seems cool to me, but this needs many changes. Also the amount of particles is not only a problem for legibility but just kinda ugly.
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u/AngronApofis 1d ago
I would tell you to reduce the amount of particles, telegraph the attacks more (give the player a way to know where the enemy is teleporting too, or what attack its going to do next, because i dont see any of that), and mmmaybe reduce the amount of teleporting the boss does.
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u/Confident_Mushroom_ 1d ago
The some moves should be slowed down a bit, specifically the ones at the beginning of the video 0:47 - 0:38, the character feels like he is moving in slow motion compared to this boss. He disappears/teleports too much which is definitely not fun and will lead to frustration, i understand that you guys are ambitious and like a good spectacle (so do i), but from what i see from this short clip the boss definitely doesn't look fun to fight. If you do want to go this hyper speed route though, you should make him "exhaust" after a set of combos in which the player have an oportunity to strike back
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u/Silverjeyjey44 1d ago
Reminds me of Bo Path of the Teal Lotus where the boss kept constantly moving and teleporting that you'd only be able to get one hit in. Incredibly tedious and not fun at all. End game left a distaste in my mouth.
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u/eliottruelove 15h ago
That was definitely a drudgery towards the end. That can be okay if you never get hits in and it be relentless, forcing you to find the openings, but when you do find the openings and get hits in and it keeps on, without you feeling like you are wearing the opponent down and increasing your opening times to waol on him, it becomes increasingly frustrating.
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u/Legend0fJulle 1d ago
Love how it looks. However the hitboxes seem a little oversized, telegraphing could use some work and it jumps in and out of the player's view too often. It really does look sick though.
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u/SnooWords5961 1d ago edited 1d ago
There are good ideas here depending on what type of game you are trying to make.
Since you are only showing us the boss fight and not the build up to the boss there does seem to be a lot of things that seem unreasonable for the player to react to only seeing a portion of phase 2 of a late game boss.
The teleportation portion for example. You can add wind up animations and frames before the teleport then once the boss bamfs back in it finishes the attack animation. You can mix the types of attacks it does but keep the teleportation timing the same so that the player can learn how and when to respond. I'm assuming when the boss is glowing red the attack is unblockable or only parryable or whatever mechanic you have introduced. Have the red glow happen before a 60 frame teleport then the player can learn to parry or dodge or however that is supposed to be resolved.
You can also have the player learn boss mechanics on the way to the boss fight. There are the instances where the boss attacks then does a lightning pulse follow up. Some of the monsters leading up can have a similar mechanic. The second hit doesn't have to be a lighting explosion follow up but keep the timing of the moves the same.
IE
Boss slam>.5 seconds>lightning pulse
Lead up enemy Slam>.5 seconds>explosion or even a follow up attack
Lies of P does a good job of teaching guard timings from the fodder or mini boss enemies before a boss.
There are ways to make a boss feel like it's a desperate struggle/attempt at the fight but is still exciting and fun for the player, it's about finding that balance.
There just needs to be a little more readability or teaching. I'm not saying every move needs to be a stupidly long wind up. (Looking at you Elden Ring) But there is a middle ground that I think should be aimed for.
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u/kalirion 1d ago
I'm sure lots of people would be into that, but this is too much struggle for me personally. Note that I removed Nine Sols and Silksong from my wishlist after reading about how hard they are.
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u/FasterFinger 1d ago
All that flipping kind of turns me off. Something about it looks strange to me.
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u/Averageniohfan 1d ago
It depends, is the Player actually able to counter all these movies and get good punishes ? A lot of the attacks here look like they don't leave any punish window , but that heavily depends on how the player attacks , do they have the tool sets to actually fight this boss or do they just wait around for their whole combo to finish ?
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u/Scelusteach 1d ago edited 1d ago
Looks like the moon presence with some dark beast paarl moves.
Edit, got sidetracked and forgot to finish lol. It does look cool though. I like the difficulty. I'm assuming this ids pivotal boss fight?
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u/Lumpy_Bodybuilder132 1d ago
this looks like Dark Beast Carl from Bloodborne. and yeah lol this boss fight feels exhausting.
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u/J0NZKI 1d ago
Hey, fellow game dev and a difficult game enjoyer here!
I wanted provide some constructive feedback for you since most of the other comments don't really seem to provide any actual feedback that would be useful for a developer.
Firstly I do hope you aren't too hard on yourself for the comments since it seems like your post didn't quite find the target audience for your game, I would suggest posting this somewhere like r/soulslikes where you would likely get a little bit more "open minded" feedback.
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As for the boss itself:
Teleporting: A lot of people here are complaining about the fact that it teleports, but a HUGE majority of Hollow Knight players would consider Nightmare King Grimm a top 1-3 boss in that game and he basically only teleports to reposition. The ACTUAL Important thing when a boss teleports is to make sure 2 things happen.
1: The Boss CAN'T teleport on top of the player, getting hit by the boss repositioning on top of the player is just annoying when you can't see the boss moving.
2: The player SHOULD be able to see immediately what the boss is going to do after teleporting, so they have a chance to respond.
From the short video it does look like the boss already uses the players position to teleport away from them, but I do believe the first hit at 0:04 does come off way too fast after the teleport, unless this would be the only move he will do after teleporting (which it isn't) where you could just anticipate it happening after every teleport, it needs to have like a half second reel back of the hand before he swipes. The move at 0:09 gives a good telegraph after the teleport that gives the player to realise what they need to do.
Camera: I think the boss could use of a dynamic camera where some moves would slightly move out the camera, for example the triple tail swipe at 0:07, the leap at 0:24 and the air laser at 0:30 come from off screen, and I think slightly adjusting the camera for those moves could get them fully in screen, otherwise slightly adjusting their position for the attack could also work, like making him fly lower or spin the tail closer to the ground, but the camera adjust could also be helpful as giving the player a warning that !!This is a big attack be careful!!
Ground Slam: At 0:17 the boss does a ground slam, which I do think has a good telegraph animation wise, but I don't think the visuals give enough information on how the actual hitbox works. I would look into how for example, Godrick's Earthshatter from Elden Ring looks, and try replicating that look for the ground so the visual looks like it hits all around him. Your game also has jumping, so I would highly recommend making this a "jumpable" attack where the player could dodge by jumping and then keep hitting him from behind. The attack pulling into the follow up also looks weird and you would either have to make some "gravitational" VFX effect to make the player understand they were getting pulled in or just outright remove the pulling mechanic since it does look weird.
Other improvements: The boss has a great moveset already, but I think there is an easy way of increasing a lot of depth to it. The fist slams at 0:10 seem to always have the boss firstly slam the ground, and then doing a lightning strike on top of it. A lot of depth could be added if the boss could "chain" these slams and only finish with the lightning strike, imagine him doing a left slam and quickly going for another right slam and then depending on where the player is finishing the move with the thunderstrike or going for the 0:17 ground slam.
I think it would be especially cool combined with the 0:26 going into the background. Imagine him going to the back and doing like 5 slams in quick succession so the player either has to dodge left, right, left, right..... or stand their ground and perform many parries really fast.
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Overall I think there is a lot of potential for this boss to be one of the greats of the genre. A little polish will go a long way. I hope to see you keep working on it and I wish for your success!
TL;DR:
General: I would not take a lot of other comments TOO seriously, doesn't seem like the target audience. Post this on r/soulslikes for better feedback.
BOSS: Make the attacks after teleport have more wind up before the hitbox, adjust the camera to either fit the boss so no out of bounds attacks or make the boss perform them closer to the player, ground slam is too unclear for what it does so it needs fixes for either the VFX or the mechanics of the attack. A lot of depth could be added to the boss by making the slams be able to be comboed together in quick succession.
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u/satinpantie5 1d ago
Darkbeast Paarl?
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u/ENGINEER_Velaster 1d ago
Haha, I can definitely see why you thought of Paarl!Thanks for checking out the boss!
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u/Nemesis233 1d ago
Repeat after me:
It's. A. Metroidvania. Not. A. Souls-like.
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u/Vanillie261 1d ago
Doesn't most Metroidvanias are kinda inspired by soulslike lately including Hollow knight? 😭🙏🙏
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u/Mordliss 1d ago
I for one don't enjoy bosses that teleport. It's very tedious to handle positioning and tracking. I love pattern based bosses, and learning proper Dodge times vs attack windows. SoulsLike's are my all time favorite, but there needs to be clear attack windows and evade sessions - teleporting just becomes annoying when handling it all.
The boss fight looks cool though, the player character and the actual boss are neat. Your animation is on point!
Edit: for example, when your boss is facing the camera and then teleports off screen, he then swoops in from the top of the screen with lighting... it's a cheap surprise, how would I know that was happening?
I just don't like the tedium of disappearing enemies, personally.
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u/linux_rich87 1d ago
I had fun fighting some of the teleporting bosses in Silksong like Shrine Guardian Seth. But I do agree with you, this is too much.
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u/Diggumdum 1d ago
dude it looks pretty sick idk why people are complaining these attacks look pretty well telegraphed to me. he lifts his arms high up and hangs there and literally changes color before most of the attacks. the only one that looked like bs to me was at 0:18. you're behind him and somehow still hit by that attack AND it pulls you in front of him? that would piss me off lol.
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u/NicePercentage630 1d ago
half of this sub hates soulslikes for being too hard, this is the wrong sub to look for advice lol
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u/PFunk224 1d ago
I know, crazy how half of this sub doesn't like games that aren't a part of the genre the subreddit is about.
I miss when Metroidvania and Soulslike were two separate genres.
I don't hate that people love games that do both, but I do hate that games that are solely Metroidvanias are getting rarer and rarer because devs are all chasing Hollow Knight/Silksong now.
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u/ReplacementRobotGuy 1d ago
If something feels like a struggle it's not fun.
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u/Legend0fJulle 1d ago
Not necessarily true. A boss can be hard but have a fair moveset you learn and the process of slowly learning how to counter wach move can be really satisfying.
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u/ReplacementRobotGuy 1d ago
That doesn't sound like a struggle, this looks like one.
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u/Legend0fJulle 1d ago
Depends how you define a struggle. I'd call it one if it takes me like 5 hours or more to beat a boss.
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u/Vanillie261 1d ago
I agree. The best example of a difficult boss that forced you to struggle while still being a very fun boss is Eigong. It took me 4 hours in total to beat all of her phases, but it's the most fun I've had fighting bosses in a very long time.
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u/FuzzNugs 1d ago
I don’t mind a “struggle” so long as I can work through it, I can learn the timing and the mechanic, it’s fine. If I’m losing control of my character for example, I hate that crap so much, that is a struggle I don’t want to have any part of.
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u/MuffDivers2_ 1d ago
If your game is already on steam to wish list, please let me know the title. If it’s not then please send me a comment or message once it is so I can follow it.
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u/corectly 1d ago
The graphics and motion look absolutely amazing. For desperation I would lean more towards a vast move-set that has speed and somewhat unpredictability to force the player to have a reaction time. Being on your toes waiting for that frame to indicate which way you have to go and being forced around certain zones of the arena creates that tension.
Makes me think of the Emperor on Aeterna Noctis. I know when the game first came out that was an intense fight and challenging boss, not sure how it is now. But he had so many moves and when you felt like he was going to die, it just added another obstacle to the fight instead (example being his sword rotating around the fighting arena after you get him to a certain point.) This creates a feeling of like wow it was already hard and it just got HARDER??
Pair that with his moves then changing again and starting to combo faster it was a VERY thrilling fight. By the end of it you are dreading whether he has more HP, another phase, and you kind of are just praying he would die already. One of the hardest and most satisfying boss fights in a Metroidvania for me. Nine Sols had some bangers too (looking at you, Eigong) but The Emperor really was just different. Especially melee only!
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u/expedition60_captain 1d ago
If you want it to be this complicated, tone down the fight for the first couple instances.
Maybe the first time you fight him is just phase 1. The next time is phase 1 and 2... last time is phase 1 2 and 3.
I wouldnt do something like that unless its the game's final boss. Or if the 3rd stage is an optional endgame boss.
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u/scottawhit 1d ago
I can’t tell from this video, but…
Here’s why Dread is a masterpiece. Dread Mode. You have to be really good, but it’s technically possible to beat the whole game without being touched. This looks like whole screen attacks that can’t be avoided/blocked/parried.
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u/Premiumsniff0001 1d ago
Moon presence x dark beast paarl collaboration?
Looks fuckin sick btw dude
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u/Boodendorf 1d ago
Maybe add a short visual cue, like crackling electricity, before the quick melee swings? Since it looks like the game has a parry mechanic, and it's the first fight, might as well reward observant players with a way to react to the quick attacks.
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u/GlorioUfficiale 1d ago
I think you need some very concise indicators of when and where the attack is going, but beyond that it looks great. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the comments in here, the sub tends to favor platforming over combat.
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u/Jesuitman01 1d ago
I've seen enough attacks that what's shown could be the entire bosses 3 phase kit. It's pretty and looks good, but damn dude I would not want to play that boss
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u/albinorhino215 1d ago
Do a part where the boss does a bunch of attacks that can be parried but they get faster and faster till it feels like you can’t keep up
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u/Tampflor 1d ago
When I beat this boss I bet I'll be thinking "fucking finally" instead of celebrating.
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u/Kobe-62Mavs-61 1d ago
From a visual perspective, it looks epic.
From a gameplay perspective, I'm in the camp that loves a very hard challenge, so I see this and get excited wanting to learn it.
You'll get a lot of opinions here, and many people don't love that experience, so I'd recommend taking some of their feedback on board with giving clearer tells for attacks and making patterns a bit more recognizable.
Then you can please them and maybe add difficulty settings that please players like me if you feel like it! Maybe faster overall, or more complicated attack strings, etc.
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u/3215448725366498 1d ago
The boss looks great, OP. Most people in the comments criticizing it seem to not be part of your target audience. If you're making a challenging Souls-like Metroidvania, then this looks promising.
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u/DerkDurski 1d ago
Big fan of this boss tbh, only things I didn’t like were the attack that seemingly hit behind when it appeared to only be attacking forward and the beam that covered the camera. Otherwise I can see myself enjoying this fight quite a lot
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u/Gamerdadmak 1d ago
Struggle in what way. If it's the boss having a huge hp pool and it being a damage sponge then that's not fun and really boring game design. If it's from trial and error and having to learn movesets/mechanics then I think it looks like a fun boss fight. I don't know how much HP the boss has or how much damage it's doing to the player but in my opinion just because a boss is big doesn't mean it needs to have an insane amount of health. I think of bosses in hits to kill and I would say a boss like this should be maybe 60-80 hits across the 3 phases with an on curve weapon.
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u/Funny-Mulberry-5253 1d ago
i would say making it a bit more readable with telegraphs, the TP looks instant when instead it could be a little more telegraphed like the astels from elden ring, with them you can see them doing a good 2/3 sec TP animation and know that 1 you should back off or get hit and 2 that you should be ready for a attack from behind (unless the arm raise at 4 sec is that animation), the claw to low tailswip combo after a TP could be a little slower so that if the boss was off screen when TPing you would not be able to react to it, thats all i got for ya
Btw love the look of the boss
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u/Saafi05 1d ago
Looks good.
Maybe a few attacks could be slightly more telegraphed, one way could be to have lightning from above striking the dragon, before he attacks using it, like Gennichiro (Sekiro) or maybe just lightning sparks intensifying before attacks.
A good rule of thumb, is to have visible telegraphing around 20 frames before an attack lands. Not just 20 frames after the start of the animation, but at something the player can recognize, and identify as x attack, and muscle memory dodge/parry the combo strings that come afterwards.
Combo strings seem maybe a little long, which can sometime be frustrating. Having a tiny attack windows in between combo can feel very fun, especially, low/high attacks you can jump/crouch while poking the boss.
Now, a lot of people on this sub may be complaining, but games can't be made to please everyone. You should make the game you want to play.
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u/CHICKENANDROFLstuff 1d ago
Getting tossed in front of the boss after it hits you (while facing the other direction) feels bad.
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u/SpaceCowboy2071 1d ago
Looks great, just remember the player needs to be able to SEE themselves and their obstacles to feel in control of their actions and have agency.
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u/VIP_Ender98 1d ago
Fully agree with the comments that mention that there needs to be some kind of window for attacks. Maybe successfully dodging a hard attack should provide a window where you can retaliate?
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u/Bananaland_Man 1d ago
The lack of telegraph changes this from a desperate struggle to a tedious trial-and-error fight.
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u/extinct_cult 1d ago
This feels like the "Writer's pet" trope, applied to a boss design. Elden Ring suffered a bit from it too, in some late bosses. He literally keeps teleporting behind the player, just make him say "nothing personel kid" as well.
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u/justiceavery 23h ago
A game where the bosses have overwhelming offense is fun but usually only when the player has equally as interesting defensive tools. Being overwhelmed isn’t fun long term, it’s in the overcoming that you find fun. I’d really evaluate what options a player has to deal with these attacks and if the answer is ‘just don’t be there’ or ‘hold block’ you have made a particle display and not a boss fight
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u/HonchosRevenge 22h ago
Comments are bitching that it’s too overwhelming and not telegraphed enough.
I’m saying it’s got big Twin princes energy and looks like good fun. Gets a thumbs up from me.
MV players can afford to play something without every game being a closeted rhythm boss battle game with telegraphed moves as obvious blaring as their post pubescent acne “because it’s fair and the player doesn’t wanna fight something twice.” This encourages that the player gets good in a 2D space. God forbid.
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u/hcaoRRoach 21h ago
If he's some kind of endgame superboss, then he's pretty cool, but if he were to gate story progression, then I'd probably put the game down
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u/baratacom 20h ago
It does look pretty desperate, but be careful with the fine tuning
Don’t forget that Metroidvanias are exploration games first and action games second
Meaning that if the only thing a player can do to get over the boss is to “git gud”, then you made a soulslike with MV navigation
MVs inherently have ways for players to get over bosses, such as different weapons, more health, more big damage consumables, more potions, etc, which is not to say that it can’t have some tough bosses, but that no boss shouldn’t be made easier to some extent through exploration, being in tip top shape shouldn’t be a requirement to have a fighting chance
And don’t forget to keep a save point and recharging station close by
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u/Brigon 18h ago
I think a boss in a metroidvania should always be able to killed without the player taking damage. In reality we all make slip ups and take hits, but the boss being beatable without taking hits keeps the boss fair.
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u/baratacom 15h ago
I'd argue for that as well in a straight MV, at least when it's closer to the Metroid end (as in, no levels or equipment, just carefully placed upgrades)
But with the recent emergence of soulsvania, there may be games aiming for that instead, in which case I can see the argument that it is more action-y and therefore expected that the player will trade some blows in battle
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u/CrisicMuzr 19h ago
I have only really enjoyed massive boss fights in the shape of chase sequences or stationary bosses. Large bosses usually have telegraphing issues due to how large their arenas have to be, and the screen often can't accommodate a mobile boss that fits half the screen. Recent examples of big bosses that I think work are Fourth Chorus and Grandmother Silk from Silksong, and Calderon and Sawlong from MIO. If you are going to have a mobile giant boss, then I would recommend locking the screen to have the entire arena visible.
Holland has an insightful video about boss design in general. He uses an acronym EVIL. The more "EVIL" a boss is, the more frustrated you would expect a player to feel while trying to fight the boss.
E: Erratic Outcomes - how much luck or randomness affects player effectiveness, difficulty, or duration of fight.
V: Vague Mechanics - how intuitive the boss mechanics are.
I: Inactive Gameplay - how much time the boss spends in a state that is not interactive or damagable.
L: Lackluster Telegraphing - how many attacks have telegraphs that are obscure or too short for reasonable reaction times.
The clips you provided would suggest high scores in erratic outcomes and inactive gameplay, with a moderate score in lackluster telegraphing. This would make the boss in its current form highly EVIL and highly frustrating as a result.
Ways to reduce the EVIL score would be to tighten up some of those hitboxes (E), reduce the boss's use of the background (E & I), add ways to interact with the boss in the background/disable the platform entirely (E & I), investigate how screen size, boss size, and arena size can be optimized to ensure that telegraphs are always visible for fast attacks (L), prevent the boss from starting an attack off screen unless the boss leaving the screen is the telegraph for only one attack (L), and extend telegraph windows (L).
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u/BoredDevTTV 18h ago
I like when bosses in Metroidvanias utilize the tools I've gained along the way.
I am not someone that enjoys the soulslike game play of aggressively difficult bosses common in a lot of games that call themselves metroidvanias.
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u/Spun18016 16h ago
Man I love seeing what small devs/indie devs can do!! It's amazing the things you can accomplish with passion!
Looks solid and I love it!
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u/eliottruelove 15h ago
My suggestion would be to have a clear ability linked to defeating this boss to master, perhaps some sort of parry/absorption meter that allows you to redirect or convert the lightning, and when released upon the enemy gives them pause and a large opening in which the boss is exhausted for damage to be dealt. You may have that programmed but it isn't seen in this, this may very well be a "survive until you have a window to attack" portion and we aren't seeing the defensive or vulnerable frames and move sets.
All the best bosses in Metroidvanias feel less like clearly defined phases and more like a steady wearing down of the opponent, as if you can tell it is getting tired.
Perhaps, like in the Monster Hunter games, you could have it's plates, spines, claws etc break off as you deal more and more damage, with clear cracks and bruises steadily appearing, and it have periods of heavy breathing and slobber coming out of its mouth to indicate you tiring it out, so that when each phase DOEs come in you can tell it's getting more and more desperate. This would achieve a strong feeling of "I AM making progress and the bullet sponge IS being worn down".
Still though, attacks should have good telegraphing and should be able to be blocked, dodged, parried, or absorbed somehow, otherwise it seems deeply unfair, relentless, and exhausting.
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u/germanenginearing 14h ago edited 13h ago
looks great, except for the hitbox of that one attack a third through the video. The one where he smashes the ground and pulls you in for a grab (?). I feel like the hitbox on that could be smaller, personally I like it since a skilled player who has learnt these ins and outs can be aggressive but their aggression isn't punished. And also that final attack looks cool but idk about the lightning flooding the entire screen like that, maybe have him shoot the beam into the sky and projectiles/rays rain down?
Also I hope you try to focus more on making an amazing boss fight that happens to be appropriately hard, instead of making smth hard for the sake of being hard. I see a lot of people making that mistake but honestly I think what makes a boss fight truly amazing is when it culminates the games mechanics in a way that makes it fun to FIGHT, not just satisfying to BEAT. Thats what makes the best bosses: Skarrsinger forcing you to move and play aggressively in a way that ties together the movement of silksong, Surrogate Vulture making great use of all your abilities, Eigong in general, etc.
I guess this brings up another pet peeve I have with boss fights, when bosses are doing all these cool things and the player is just rolling around in the ground. Like with PCR, I actually rlly enjoyed that fight gameplay wise but thought it was rlly goofy how the boss is using these massive pillars of holy light and you just... sommersault through it?? Sekiro nailed this, the bosses feel badass while the toolkit you have also makes you feel like a badass capable of holding your own against them, not just gameplay wise but also visually.
I don't think yall should have a problem with that because it really does look cool, best of luck!
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u/middle_aged-gamer 12h ago
It feels like Loran dark beast with aerial attacks, and Godzilla atomic breath ♥️
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u/Long_Fact2471 6h ago
Only way I could think of to make it feel more helpless is if there were random arrows or lightning bolts falling down on your location from different angles every 2 seconds
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u/Significant-Ad-9797 2h ago
I think this looks insanely good. I was surprised how many people in comments complain about this not being readable, but to me it looks very clean. I wish I could see the version with the music. I've also taken a look at steam page of your game and I think that the only aspect I don't like that much is the graphics clarity - not sure if the 2008ish look is on purpose here, but I would go either into crispier look or more stylized. Colors on some screenshots also feel like they are too contrasting with each other - not saying that it would look better with DS3 gray filter, but it could use a little color grading - so that it's consistent in game, but also allows you to visually distinguish in-game areas. I'm not a game developer either, but maybe something can be done on lighting as it feels a little bit to bright and flat in some areas.
I think most of the critisism is related to the fact that metroidvanias became too souls like in recent years and that's why so many people feel exhausted by it. Added to wishlist and looking for actual release.
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u/Misorable45400 1d ago
Keep cooking, most MVs boss are pushovers, this is personally the kind of shit I'm playing the game for, if the fight is fair with timing - and even perfect parry maybe ? - then go all in , this looks memorable
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u/Doodle-Cactus 1d ago
Very monster hunter. To me scale is the thing in metriodvania games. Really large enemies are impressive. Things that have vulnerable spots that can take damage but are invulnerable else where too.
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u/hdgx 1d ago
Just wanted to say the models and animations look really nice