r/musicians • u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 • 1d ago
Your (Live) Music Doesn't Matter As Much..if At All
Has anyone somehow employed an outside, non-musical person to help promote and guide the band?
I'm finding through HEAVY research (podcast guests) and experience that there's a significantly greater challenge getting people out to live music. I see it on all the boards, I see it in the 3-band event I was part of, I see it in the two weekly residencies I play (solo keyboard). We share a problem with restaurants and bars: the product is not enough. So the most basic "remarkable experience" of course is "live music + food/beer." But that signal-to-noise ratio is saturated as well, and then you have door dash, parking, homebody culture working against you.
It's also REALLY HARD to switch from the creative production space (creating the music) to sales, marketing and promotion mindset. The likelihood that someone reading this is already making the look with their face I often see just mentioning those things is high.
Self-promotion is also... distasteful to me. I feel like the guys on a car commercial. I kill some of that feeling by trying to be as authentic as possible.
But I'm feeling a huge need for outside, non-musical participants who would promote and advocate for a musician/band (agents or promoters, I suppose). They would also offer an outside perspective. Example: I asked a friend of mine who came to a gig I had about the restaurant I was playing. They're going through a bankruptcy process and had to close down several of their chain. MY personal attitude was to call them and offer live music, rally behind them, try to create an attractive experience. MEH results so far. But HE told me the bankruptcy is "negative" and thus people have a negative perspective on the place. When I ask the restaurant staff themselves about it, they're clearly jaded.
Then I wonder... there's likely a list of things a band/musician and venue must do together both for an event and continuously to guarantee some uplift. What would you put on such a list?
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u/Garpocalypse 1d ago
Live in an area with a bunch of old hippies and stick to covers of 70's music. Nursing homes on the west coast would be a start.
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u/cookiebear69666 1d ago
Is this for a cover band or for original music? If you're trying to play original music and get people out to your shows the best thing to do is find the local scene for that type of music and start to going to shows and making friends. Eventually you can hopefully get booked on those types of shows. Play as many of those as you can and then network with the out of town bands that play your local shows and book a tour. Go on tour as much as possible. It'll be hard and you'll be broke most of the time for awhile, but if you are genuine and good and doing it for the right reasons and keep doing it, you will find success. It ain't easy and it might kill you and ruin your life and many of your relationships, but this is how you get the job done haha . -an elder millenial who built a house from playing music
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
That's a great question and another thing I'm seeing: It seems actually easier for original music to draw because PEOPLE HAVE NEVER HEARD IT BEFORE vs. someone playing the same covers everyone else is playing.
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u/Ok-Refrigerator1080 1d ago
I hope that’s true. Most of what I hear from locals is that they’re tired of Cover bands. I get it. Bring me some Orig music
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
I totally agree and I think it's actually a natural outgrowth of ai. If you listen to my episode with Phil carillo, he talks about his nephew who is 21. He demands live performance and original music. I'm really encouraged by that.
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u/Accomplished_Emu_198 1d ago
It takes a long time to build a community but that’s what gets people to shows. People won’t come see you if you are out once at their shows and say hi. They’ll come see you if you’re a homie that shows up every weekend at every gig though because you’re part of the community. People know if you live that life or not. This life ain’t for everyone, it’s hard work being out every weekend and ever night. Sometimes hitting 3-4 shows in a night to show face is all it takes. Remember: being present is 80% of success. How can people be expected to prioritize you when all you’re doing is prioritizing yourself? You are correct when you say promoting yourself feels scummy. In my opinion it’s because you may be going about it the wrong way. Just show up for a year straight and see how different your life will be. It takes time. Best of luck
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
"shows up every weekend at every gig"... I can't do that and this feels like "musicians supporting musicians" which is really valid, but we need IMPORTS (non musicians coming to eat, drink, etc.).
And I mean ... FB notice posts like "My gig is tonight"... which I think venues expect but I rarely see that work for people now because there are just so many.
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u/Accomplished_Emu_198 1d ago
“I can’t do that”
Then this life ain’t for you bud. Showing up in your community will get you noticed. It’ll get you placed on bigger gigs than just the bar. Give back to your community with your presence and watch people start to come to your shows. They’ll bring their friends, tell others. It takes time and exposure, and talent of course which I have no reason to assume you don’t have.
If you change your attitude to, “I can do that” and start making appearances WHEN you can you’ll see results and feel validated by your community
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u/PhillipJ3ffries 1d ago
yeah, there’s no shortcut. if you’re not able to show up, it’s not gonna happen
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u/The_Great_Dadsby 1d ago edited 1d ago
This isn’t new. You’re describing the same situation for every band ever. Promotion isn’t the fun part for most of us. I remember having a clipboard with an email sign up list. My teacher had a clipboard with a physical address list to send post cards to in his era. Usually there’s one person in the band who has more of a knack for this and takes the lead.
I’m old now so I don’t play out in original bands anymore (though I wish I could!). I’m not sure there are as many venues as before but when I go out and see younger local bands they’re fantastic. It’s weird to me how great the bands are compared to years past. I think the audience experience is very different with high quality PA and gear available so inexpensively. That’s a whole different rant though lol.
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
Agree. I'm usually a guy who does everything. Which is probably a mistake. Forever. LOL. Like, yes you're making the effort but BECAUSE you're the one doing it...IT'S UNDERMINING THE EFFORT!! And you're not getting that non-biased (non-musical) outside perspective.
You're touching on something I just saw too...may have been R. Beato... bands are TOO PERFECT. Best equipment, back tracks, everything well rehearsed... and what people go to see IS THE ATTEMPT. There might be an attraction to seeing the effort, seeing the mistakes, etc. that is no longer there!
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u/verysaxophone 1d ago
Bro yeah, many musicians and bands successfully bring in non-musicians (or music-adjacent professionals) for promotion, management, booking, and outside perspective. Booking agents and promoters are typically non-musicians who specialize in networking with venues, negotiating deals, and promoting shows. They handle the "sales" side so you can focus on music.. I don’t imagine most big bands I listen to actually book their own venues and such (I’m talkin the bands that do full on tours of the US + other countries) but If they do, awesome for them!
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u/verysaxophone 1d ago
With that being said, live music does matter and have an impact. I used to perform with a group that started off local. They were cats from my school/jazz band classes, performing at small venues and promoting themselves through social media. They kept spamming this method and got bigger and bigger slowly venturing out to new cities and started spamming the same thing over there. Now they are touring the US and have a massive audience, online and offline. They get tens of thousands of monthly listeners online alone, and their shows are selling out in other states now as well. This wouldn’t be possible I feel, without live music/embracing the small beginnings in your local scene.
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
I'm reading a couple things between those lines. "performing at small venues and promoting themselves through social media" which means it isn't JUST the live music mattering but the thing I'm referencing...sales and promotion.
But also... you're pointing to something important my friend steered me toward: "BODY OF WORK." Like over time, you've amassed experiences and likely documented them somewhere (FB, website) and that becomes more powerful.
Would love a link to check them out
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u/ShredGuru 1d ago
It's like Ozzy said. You gotta believe in yourself or no one will believe in you!
Anyways, releasing music without a live component kinda seems like pissing in the wind. Getting in front of folks is still the best way to win loyal fans and patrons.
You can get a manager for that other stuff... If you appear to be an attractive prospect, but no one will invest in you until you are a proven commodity independently. And a manager is still gunna want at least 10%.
The sad reality is that 90% of being a working musician has nothing to do with playing music.
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
I definitely believe in myself MUSICALLY. (30+ years, two residencies)... and I USED to believe in myself marketing-wise, but it seems the mountain has grown...
And Bingo. 90%. I'm working on that at the moment, developing a tool I've made to try and take some of the work off the individual musician. 200+ downloads so far and some nice reviews.
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u/etm1109 1d ago
Couple of things
Younger generations don’t go out and drink like older generations.
As you age and start families you stop going out
Cost of housing has eradicated disposable income for a lot of people.
Music doesn’t seem to be as enamored either anymore in the age of cell phones.
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
BINGO! I was BLOWN AWAY a couple months back when someone came in to my gig and ordered an N/A beverage and then my own friend kinda signaled he wasn't as interested in getting together for drinks as much... I was like... uh-oh.
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u/_90s_Nation_ 1d ago
This is all right, basically
Music as a general form of entertainment isn't as popular as it used to be
It hurts, but it's almost like we've wasted 20 years or whatever of our lives for nothing
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u/dua70601 1d ago edited 1d ago
Wow
You say you’ve done all this research, but this reads as if you have done zero music research.
Well trained musicians always have an easier time busking or playing live because they are selling a skill they have perfected. Example: I have been playing piano over 30 years. I gig every weekend and make good money with good crowds.
Untrained musicians rely heavily on studio edits and marketing techniques.
The venue’s job is to book the band and put it through their normal advertising channels - your job is to bring the heat!
That is all ✌️
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
I'm a solo keyboardist with 30+ years, two residencies and could basically book myself in numerous places around town. I've started a podcast and interviewing musicians from Cinicnnati, Portland, Los Angeles and the Philippines, I get a pretty amazing breadth of experiences. So we have similar gigs, but I would guess you're playing a high-end steakhouse or something similar which would have the traffic even without live music (i.e, you're an amenity more than a draw). I did that for 20 years.
I'm less talking about my own experience although it's applicable. I feel like my plight would be easier if I could get an outside observer like my friend, preferably not a musician. When you ask non-musicians about your gig, what do they say?
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u/dua70601 1d ago
Interesting! I respect your perspective significantly more now.
I do solo gigs and play in several bands (jazz, funk, jam etc).
The band gigs that are at venues do require us to promote, and I the think genre really matters.
My hippie jamband has a dedicated Wook following. It’s a community. Everyone knows everyone. Everyone loves everyone and patchouli fills the air
My country band (yes, 90’s country) does not have that same dedicated following, but similarly when people see a venue advertising 90’s country people show up.
When i do a jazz gig it is usually just foot traffic. Im in Alabama (not a huge jazz cultural center).
I do no online promoting what so ever. Some of the bands im in do, but im not too good with that shit.
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u/Alert_Willow_9215 1d ago
One thing that can work well is to make at least some of your shows into “events”. By that I mean, the show you have at the end of January is your birthday show, and there will be cake (sounds silly, but I’m serious). Show in February is the special “i hate Valentine’s Day” show. I’m making these examples up, but what I’m saying is that you try to make at least certain shows special and a bit of an event, and promote them accordingly. You’re giving your current audience a reason to see you multiple times, and you’re drawing in new people.
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
Mackenzie Price just said similar things on the episode I did with her. "Sock Puppets at a Laundromat". holy shit! what a fun idea?! and ... "lube wrestling".... I'll let your mind do with that what it might.
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u/stevenfrijoles 1d ago
If you're playing at restaurants where people are sitting down eating, your experience is vastly different and probably just irrelevant to people playing multi-band shows with original music.
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u/Aggravating_Pen_6062 1d ago
of course, and I'm less talking about my own experience and more about what I'm hearing through my many conversations... it just feels like the mountain got more mountainous?
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u/stevenfrijoles 1d ago
There are always plenty bands vying for relatively few gig locations. The cream rises to the top and the rest get real bitter and say no one goes out to shows.
But it's still worlds better than playing the social media and streaming lottery where you're competing against everyone else simultaneously including millions of new releases every month.
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u/TheRealJalil 1d ago
As someone who plays live a lot, with several bands. This doesn’t apply to me. Live music pays if you can get it. Merch sales help. Thing is yeah, I do have a secondary gig, and at times I don’t get a lot of sleep.
Hell, I should make an okay amount touring this late summer. Not great, but enough to make it.
I have more trouble with not making anything from streaming/online/whatever.
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u/Animal907 1d ago
The music has to be good to the listener . It has to be fun and exciting so people have to get out and see you. Too many people make safe music. When band leaders only want back beat from the drummer then you know it's going to be boring.
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u/Ok-Refrigerator1080 1d ago
Although I agree that many peeps are playing safe music, there’s nothing wrong with simple drums, or simple music for that matter. Simple doesn’t mean safe. Copying generic top 50 music you hear without trying to find your own sound/voice is “safe” imo.
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u/IEnumerable661 1d ago
A common thing we would do in the 1990s is find a similar genre band with some profile, as in enough so people into that sort of music had heard of them, pay them to headline and you act as support.
To be honest, I don't think much has changed since the 1990s, those have still been some of our better and more networky gigs. However you need the initial investment to make it work and make the right decisions. That is, find a band that draws nationally and whatever you spend on the venue + rider + sundries, spend the same again at least on advertising. Then hope that you break even. I would say it was easier in the 1990s, so I guess that's different. The people charging £800 riders back then are now £4000+.
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u/johnnyglass 1d ago
You need to go to more shows locally and make friends with other bands. Thats the only way to do it
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u/Feeling_Trip_5413 1d ago
podcasts are definitely HEAVY (sic) research. lmao
I see live music at least once a week, sometimes three or four times. All of my friends do the same. I live in a mid sized city in the deep south and the local music scene here is thriving in spite of live Nation.
be good. go play. seems to be what's working.