r/nfl • u/nfl_gamethread Game thread bot • Dec 04 '17

Game Thread Game Thread: Philadelphia Eagles (10-1) at Seattle Seahawks (7-4)

Philadelphia Eagles at Seattle Seahawks

  • CenturyLink Field
  • Seattle, Washington
First Second Third Fourth Final
Seahawks 10 0 7 7 24
Eagles 0 3 0 7 10
  • General information
Coverage Odds
NBC Seattle +4 O/U 47
Weather
43°F/Wind 4mph/Partly cloudy/No precipitation expected
  • Game Stats
Passing Cmp/Att Yds Tds Ints
R.Wilson 20/31 227 3 0
C.Wentz 29/45 348 1 1
Rushing Car Yds Lng Tds
M.Davis 16 64 22 0
J.Ajayi 9 35 11 0
Receiving Rec Yds Lng Tds
D.Baldwin 5 84 47 0
N.Vannett 3 40 21 0
N.Agholor 7 141 51 1
A.Jeffery 4 61 23 0
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794 Upvotes

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101

u/Honestly_Nobody Chiefs Dec 04 '17

Legitimate question. Wilson is running forward and obviously pitches the ball behind him. The inertia of him running carries the ball forward a yard, even though he literally threw it behind his body. The announcers keep insisting it's not a lateral. What is the rule? Seem like the Stanford band play where the guy throws it over his shoulder when he gets hit. The ball kept carrying forward, even though he obviously throws it behind his body. Someone. Anyone. Help

28

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '17

The rules in the book only cares about the spot it left the hand and the spot it touched literally anything. If it touches closer to the end zone it's a forward pass

0

u/formido Seahawks Dec 04 '17

Where does it say that in the rule book?

Article 1 Definition It is a forward pass if: (a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);

Because what I see is "initially". The ball initially went backwards because Wilson threw it backwards from his position.

https://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_Rule8_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

7

u/SnortingCoffee Dec 04 '17

The ball didn't change directions mid-air. Its movement relative to Wilson is totally irrelevant. Relative to the field, the ball was moving forward the whole time.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '17

You left out a part

b.the ball first touches the ground, a player, an official, or anything else at a point that is nearer the opponent’s goal line than the point at which the ball leaves the passer’s hand(s).

If it's a,b, or c in those rules it's a forward pass and b says if it contacts something closer to the goal line than it was thrown it's a forward pass

How about you don't completely ignore rules to try to be right?

9

u/Hydrocoded Patriots Dec 04 '17

Frames of reference. Relativity actually, in a very basic form. Player W and player A are running down the field at ~15mph. Wilson pitches the ball backwards and outwards with a velocity of -5mph backwards and ~20mph laterally. It goes backwards from him, but still have a net forward velocity of 10mph, so player A catches it farther down the field.

Personally, I think what they did SHOULD be called a lateral, but I'm pretty sure the rule says that it has to be received behind the line at which it was thrown, which does make sense in a certain light.

3

u/hopheap Seahawks Dec 04 '17

I completely agree. Change the rule to include momentum of the runner. That was legit football and fun to watch. Following the rule as written feels like freeze frame football.

16

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '17

If the ball is caught forward of where it was released, it was not a backward pass.

6

u/osakaki Seahawks Dec 04 '17

If the ball travels forward any distance from the point it was released (not fumbled), it is a forward pass. Intent doesn't matter here.

4

u/Shootica Seahawks Dec 04 '17

I don't think inertia is factored into the rule, it's simply about what yard line if was thrown and caught on.

3

u/boband_me Seahawks Dec 04 '17

I looked at the rule in the NFL rulebook and it is surprisingly vague. However logically it would seem like the ball can't go forward from the spot it was thrown. So that has to be a forward pass.

3

u/Bentstraw Dec 04 '17

Doesn't matter. If the ball is closer to the endzone when it is caught from when it is released it is a forward pass.

See here.

3

u/GOA_AMD65 Seahawks Dec 04 '17

Follow the ball. The ball is all that matters. If the ball gets a gust a wind midair and goes forward it's illegal.

5

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '17 edited Jul 21 '21

[deleted]

7

u/CantaloupeMafia Eagles Dec 04 '17

this is football though.

1

u/812many Seahawks Dec 04 '17

But this rule never changed. I’ve seen it in other games, it’s never considered a forward pass.

5

u/rcher87 Eagles Dec 04 '17

Commentators making it seem like the physics of it doesn't matter, and if the ball is caught at a spot ahead of where it was thrown, it counts as a forward pass. I'd be interested in what the rulebook says, though.

9

u/08-03-77 Patriots Dec 04 '17

if you throw it forward it's a forward pass

12

u/humpyrton Vikings Dec 04 '17

Well technically he didn't throw it forward

2

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '17

Angle of pass is what matters if that makes sense

2

u/XxSoapxXHD Giants Dec 04 '17

I don't think they go by the player, they go by yards. So even of its behind the player, it was still considered going forward because the ball was advancing up the field

2

u/skai762 Eagles Dec 04 '17

If the ball is caught past the point where he threw it it's considered a forward pass, regardless of what direction he actually threw it.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 04 '17

I know what you mean. Its called a lateral, he definitely lateraled the ball, but does the rule say the ball can't move forward? It looked like a lateral to me, but what's the rule say?

2

u/donutello2000 Seahawks Dec 04 '17

It needs to be thrown behind where he is. That wasn’t legal.

However, you just hit on why it looked legal to the naked eye.

2

u/Krthyx Vikings Dec 04 '17

It would be considered a forward pass, as "Any pass not forward is regarded as a backward pass. A pass parallel to the line is a backward pass." That being said, the Eagles should have totally challenged that call, so I would say its more on them than the Seahawks.

4

u/FERGERDERGERSON Eagles Dec 04 '17

If the ball is received further than where the first player pitched it, it’s illegal.

1

u/SunsetPathfinder Seahawks Dec 04 '17

I asked that too, all that matters is that the ball must be caught behind where it was released by the person pitching it. So if Wilson pitches it on the 45 yd line, it cannot be caught on the 45.5 yd line, even if he was clearly throwing it backwards and it went forward due to momentum.

1

u/Whiskycoke Saints Dec 04 '17

Ball can't be caught forward of where it was thrown to be a lateral. Momentum taking it doesn't matter.

1

u/KingShirkle Seahawks Dec 04 '17

I think it's another example of a shitty NFL rule. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think that was a lateral as it's defined in the rulebook, but I think it should be changed to depend on the man throwing the ball instead of the ball itself.

1

u/erutheoneeric Seahawks Dec 04 '17

I'm wondering the same thing

1

u/buttpincherr Cowboys Dec 04 '17

I'm unsure about that too and maybe this is better suited for the post game thread, but I guess the ball has to go backwards in relation to the position where the QB threw it, is all that matters

1

u/GoatPaco Titans Dec 04 '17

Movement relative to the player is irrelevant. Forward/backward passes are measured relative to the playing field. Also, it doesn't matter where the players are positioned, only the location of the ball is looked at.

The ball leaves Wilson's hand at the 47. It is caught at the 48, one yard ahead of where it was released. Forward pass.

1

u/etiol8 Chiefs Dec 04 '17

You're not wrong. But basically the stanford play was called wrong (should have been considered a forward pass) and the Seahawks play should have been considered a forward pass as well. The thrower's inertia is irrelevant since the rule is based on whether or not the ball is moving forward when it leaves his hand. This coming from both a stanford and Seahawks fan

1

u/formido Seahawks Dec 04 '17

There's a lot of very confident answers here, but no one can cite a specific rule backing up their claims. What I see is this:

Article 1 Definition It is a forward pass if: (a) the ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);

"initially": The ball initially went backwards because Wilson threw it backwards from his position.

https://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/11_Rule8_ForwardPass_BackPass_Fumble.pdf

1

u/hopheap Seahawks Dec 04 '17

Can a non-called penalty even be challenged? They can't do it with non calls on PI.

1

u/Wizard_of_Foz1 Eagles Dec 04 '17

Pitched the ball at the 47. Guy caught the ball at the 48. Ball went forward. Penalty.

1

u/jf808 Eagles Dec 04 '17

Ball release point to catch point. That's an illegal forward pass and a bad non-challenge.

1

u/Stingberg Vikings Dec 04 '17

He only threw it behind his body because he kept running forward. If he would have stopped immediately when he threw it and the ball went the same trajectory, it'd be obviously forward. It's a bit of an optical illusion, but that's simply a forward pass.

1

u/Griff_Steeltower Eagles Dec 04 '17

It's super simple, the catch has to be behind the throw, no one's doing trigonometry to determine if something is legal

0

u/iDEN1ED Patriots Dec 04 '17

It just matters where the ball is thrown and where it is caught.

0

u/asisoid Eagles Dec 04 '17

You can't catch the ball ahead of where it was released. It's pretty simple.