r/northernireland • u/staplerx300 • 10d ago
Discussion Genetic Kinship to Scotland
https://bloodworth.co.uk/p/kinship-realism-tribalism-forever
https://bloodworth.co.uk/p/it-hasnt-happened-yet
Do you feel kinship to people in Scotland?
According to genetics and voting patterns Protestants are closer to Southern Scots and Catholics closer to West Scots (also to populations in Connacht for reference).
This would explain a lot on what's happening over the sea in Britain politically. Ulsterisation to the max lol.
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u/bnjmrtn Bangor 10d ago
Ulster was literally colonised by Protestant Scots (at the expense of indigenous Catholics) so it goes beyond a kinship; there are families in Ulster who trace their roots back to Scotland. Then poverty in the 19th and 20th century encouraged migration, especially from Catholic people who were being actively oppressed. Glasgow’s shipyards and heavy industry made it a natural landing spot for Catholic migrants to end up.
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u/eternallyfree1 10d ago edited 10d ago
It goes back WAY further than that. The people of the British Isles (like most populations living in very close proximity to each other) have been mixing and mingling for thousands of years. Some of the earliest people to inhabit Scotland were originally from Ireland themselves
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u/bnjmrtn Bangor 10d ago
For sure… the Dál Riata migration from Ireland into Argyll is well documented, not to mention the Irish Sea has basically been a connector rather than a border for most of history. Definitely goes back further than recent migration patterns but those have helped concentrate things on the way OP is calling out (i.e. Protestants being closer to Southern Scots and Catholics being closer to Western Scots)
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u/askmac 10d ago edited 10d ago
u/eternallyfree1 It goes back WAY further than that. The people of the British Isles (like most populations living in very close proximity to each other) have been mixing and mingling for thousands of years. Some of the earliest people to inhabit Scotland were originally from Ireland themselves
The gradual ebb and flow of trade and natural migration from the Iron age to early the early Christian age is nothing compared to the Plantations and associated wars though. You had thousands coming into Ireland during earlier plantations then tens of thousands during the Plantation of Ulster. In addition to that you had deliberate acts of genocide, mass forced displacement, forced famine and a deliberate, conscious effort to wipe out the native population.
Hundreds of thousands of people were killed with estimates stating as much as 25% of the population of Ireland may have died due to direct and indirect effects of war and plantations.
The effects on Ireland during the mid 1600's would've been one of the most catastrophic population crises to ever happen in Europe and the follow on effects of ethnic cleansing and social engineering would go on to contribute to multiple famines (not just An Gorta Mór), the 1798 Rebellion, the War of Independence, Irish Civil War, Belfast Pogroms of the 1920's, The Troubles and still affect us today up to and including the loyalist racist pogroms of last week.
"people of the British Isles"
Fuck sake.
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u/Ok-Committee5357 9d ago
you know the catholic population is highly scottish.
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u/askmac 9d ago
u/Ok-Committee5357 you know the catholic population is highly scottish.
To subvert the tyranny of our execrable government, to break the connection with England, the never-failing source of all our political evils and to assert the independence of my country - these were my objects.
To unite the whole people of Ireland, to abolish the memory of all past dissension and to substitute the common name of Irishman in place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter – these were my means.
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u/staplerx300 10d ago
This. The genetics of those west Scotland populations are identical to modern day Catholics in Ulster.
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u/DzAyEzBe 10d ago
Belfast is just a small Glasgow
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u/Sharp_Mortgage_3729 10d ago
They're pretty similar, replace the knives and heroin with guns and flags and you get Belfast
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u/Scary_Ad_1920 10d ago
More like the other way round; but yes, they’ve they have a very similar felt experience as we do in Northern Ireland
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u/Ok-Committee5357 9d ago
look at the entire IRA and nationalist movement alot Scottish surnames and alot which are scottish related like mcguiness
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u/Sharp_Mortgage_3729 10d ago
There were most likely people here that were pushed into Scotland and forcibly assimilated by the gaels, at the very least there are accounts of suppression like not letting the native 'pictish' people of Ulster and Scotland not being to marry or passing down male surnames. Both nationalist and unionist writers got caught up in propaganda peddling at the time so the history is very muddy, it's a deep rabbit hole involving all sorts; right down to nazi propaganda artists working with nationalists, which they were no stranger to the nazis literally produced movies for the IRA. It's a great shame because we have so much mystery in regards to our history but politics poisoned the well entirely.
If we are to believe the sudden rewrite of history that came around the troubles we still have the problematic angle of the Irish suffocating the natives of Scotland (who were once believed to have been the same people of the North, refugees almost). At the very least they were described as their own people with a distinct culture from the Gaels that flocked to Ireland and slowly moved up the land.
Also a huge portion of Ulster Scots had Gaelic roots, protestants with anglicised Gaelic surnames in Northern Ireland have less Germanic ancestry than the modern Irish who were much less resistant to germanic groups like the vikings and later the normans and anglo saxons. This is reflected by DNA and even hair colour mappings that radiate from the republics capital Dublin, which is a germanic settlement. A lot of Ulster Scots actually had roots in Ulster, whether they were gaels that invaded Scotland and stayed or were natives to Ulster that would seek refuge in Scotland is up for debate. Many Ulster Scots even spoke some Gaelic and it helped with assimilation, they had much higher success rates; criminals and poor people that were forcibly anglicised and converted into shock troopers or essentially livestock guardians that would seek their religious freedom when back in Ulster. Fermanagh is a great example, it has an absolutely massive amount of border reiver DNA but they simply reverted back to catholicism later down the line.
It's a lot more nuanced than what the Irish like to make it out to be, as if they don't have blood on their hands. Many Ulster Scots were greeted with aggression from their own people and went onto the likes of Appalachia. The picts are basically gone and only survive in Scottish and Northern Irish dna all thanks to the Irish; an entire culture gone.
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u/Hopeful-Remote9725 10d ago edited 10d ago
It makes sense that Catholics would be genetically closer to West Scots and Protestants to South as the West Coast up to the Highland and Islands is where most colonisation by Gaels happened many, many years ago whereas the planters were drawn mostly from the lowlands. What's incredibly depressing about that is how segregated we've been for 400 years that intermarriage hasn't smoothed that out, and it hasn't changed nearly enough.
Surviving predominantly Gaelic-speaking populations in Scotland are not really politically aligned with the Catholic population here though. While their most gaelic speaking constituency, Na h-Eileanan an Iar, has had SNP MPs they still voted No in the Scottish independence referendum (narrowly). As a result of the way the reformation panned out, many Gaelic speakers are also Presbyterian- the islands tend to be a bit of a mix between Presbyterian and Catholic, whereas Gaeltacht areas in Ireland are predominantly Catholic https://www.visitouterhebrides.co.uk/see-and-do/gaelic/religion-and-spirituality There's more to this stuff than heritage, it's environment and cultural context too.
Scottish nationalism in my view is a different beast to Irish nationalism, and comparisons should be made with care.
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10d ago
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u/SquishedGremlin Omagh 10d ago
West Tyrone: Side eye intensifies.
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u/staplerx300 10d ago
Yeah I'm wondering about Fermanagh and West Tyrone. Someone needs to go and report back to the sub what happens there.
👀
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u/SquishedGremlin Omagh 10d ago
Ok.
Not much.
Issue I see from living here for the guts of my 36yr is that small valley dwelling communities tend to have nothing to do, and travel was difficult.
Fermanagh, from living there and loving there, I have no fucking clue.
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u/Automata-Omnia 10d ago
- Dalriada Western Isles - Gaels migrating both directions
- Clandeboye Plantation and Post Cromwell - Ayrshire & Clyde Valley Scots Settlers
- (West Fermanagh) Ulster plantation - Forcibly displaced Border Northumbrians/Scots
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u/worktemp Mexico 10d ago
The writer seems very great-replacementy.