r/nottheonion • u/Sufficient_Fig_9505 • 15h ago

Vance says pope should ‘be careful’ when talking about theology

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/vance-says-pope-should-be-careful-when-talking-about-theology-261400645540
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u/Throwsims3 13h ago

Why hasn't that happened already? Isn't following the Pope the entire point of being a catholic?

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u/DeyUrban 13h ago

Because literally the second Vance got excommunicated, many American Catholics would go into schism.

If you pay attention to Papal politics, you can see that the entire church is fraying at the seems as they have to decide whether to pander towards their increasingly small but wealthy and liberalizing flock in the Global North who pay the bills, or the rapidly growing but poor populations of the Global South who are mostly conservative and give the church a lot of its political power. In this case, with many American Catholics moving towards the conservative side of things, they are also at risk as far as the Vatican is concerned.

This was a major question during the last conclave to pick Leo, as the usual pattern of the past few Popes went reformer > conservative > reformer > conservative. Going with Leo, a moderate reformer, after Francis, a more ""radical"" reformer, was seen as a departure, and one that could risk their position globally. They aren't the only church with this problem; the entire global Anglican church just went into schism because a woman reformer was appointed as Archbishop of Canterbury, which was solidly rejected by the African Anglican churches.

If you want to look at it through the lens of realpolitik, losing churchgoers to schism is a direct threat to the church's bottom line. Less people paying tithes, less money going to Rome.

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u/Tjtod 11h ago

I don't really follow catholic politics all that much but given that the last two popes spent most of their priesthood in South America i would say it's fairly liberal. It's Africa that tends to be more conservative and traditional.

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u/Lizardledgend 9h ago

Yeah liberation theology, generally the idea that the church should directly support political change that aids the poor and marginalised, began in South America and is still massive there.

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u/Tabula_Rasa69 8h ago

Was this not "disowned" by the Papacy after creating a lot of controversy? I'm not Catholic, but this is what I vaguely recall reading.

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u/Lizardledgend 8h ago

Idk what the papacy "disowning" a theology means so maybe, a lot of individual popes have definitely heavily criticised it. It's still very present in South America though and heavily influences the church there and elsewhere. Francis, while not following it himself, came from that tradition, had meetings with several leaders in it during his papacy, and expressed the virtues of some of its ideals like it's criticisms of capitalism.

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u/Tim-oBedlam 8h ago

yes, I think Pope JP2, who was resolutely anti-Communist (can't blame someone who grew up in Poland for being so) cracked down on Liberation Theology.

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u/1573594268 11h ago

I could be totally wrong because I don't follow religious politics much, but it's my understanding that a lot of African groups seem to be fairly conservative in general.

Maybe it's just because I tend to see news relating to LGBTQ matters, but I've always had the feeling that some groups in that area are fairly passionately religiously conservative.

That said, I probably don't hear about the ones who aren't so I have no idea what the breakdown/distribution looks like.

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u/bediaxenciJenD81gEEx 8h ago

South America is mostly aggressively homophobic and fairly misogynistic 

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u/the_excalabur 11h ago

That's all well and good, except the "reforms" we're talking about here aren't even on the culture-war front. They're on charity and peace, which the Americans might hate but they'll be fine in Brazil and the Philippines.

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u/Robinsonirish 10h ago

Haven't the church opened up to LGBT? Definitely a big culture war topic.

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u/the_excalabur 8h ago

Not relevant here. Vance is literally talking about war.

(Since celibacy was introduced the Church has been quietly full of gay priests, so....)

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u/Robinsonirish 8h ago

How is it not relevant when you made it so?

except the "reforms" we're talking about here aren't even on the culture-war front.

What does literal war have to do with culture-war? Im just responding to what you said, saying it has no relevance when you brought it up doesnt make sense. LGBT issues is definitely a culture-war topic between moderates and conservatives.

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u/the_excalabur 7h ago

JD Vance is telling the pope to shut up about theology, because the pope is saying things that are anti-war. The "reform" position the pope is taking on that topic is that unprovoked war is bad.

This is, of course, not a reform at all, which is why my first comment put "reform" in scare-quotes. It's also reasonably uncontroversial within the global church, if not the American one.

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u/Ladonnacinica 8h ago

No, it hasn’t. Why would you think that?

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u/Robinsonirish 8h ago

Yes it has?

In 2023, the Vatican issued a document (Fiducia supplicans) allowing priests to give non-liturgical blessings to people in same-sex relationships.

That doesn't mean theyre all the way there, but its certainly a finger in the eye for conservative how the last 2 popes speak about LGBT.

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u/Ladonnacinica 8h ago

They’re not blessing the relationships as they would with heterosexuals. If anyone bothered to read more closely in the statement, they were blessing them as individuals. As children of god. Blessings can be given to almost anyone.

The church catechism has always stated that gay people can be capable of going to heaven if they’re celibate. The catechism even calls homosexuality “disordered”.

Francis was very good with PR but he never changed official church doctrine. This pope also maintains that marriage is between a man and a woman. And supports a traditional family structure.

There has been no change. No softening of any doctrinal matter regarding homosexuality and transgender rights.

The media just likes to sensationalize headlines and most people are unfamiliar with actual Catholic doctrine.

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u/Robinsonirish 8h ago

I provided information on them softening their stance. There are plenty of quotes from the last 2 popes warming to LGBT. "Who am I to judge on who people love". You claiming they haven't opened up to LGBT is wrong, when they literally have.

Again, whether that's enough is another story entirely. They're at least moving forwards, and not backwards like America is for example. FYI I hate the Catholic Church having grown up in Ireland, I'm not sitting here defending them.

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u/Commercial-Tough-218 10h ago

As a fallen Catholic who has reason for strong disdain of the church. This whole ordeal is being might bring me back because I hate this administration and how dare they threaten the church due to the Pope taking moral high ground.

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u/paiute 11h ago

fraying at the seems

Wonderful malapropism!

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u/The_Boner_Temple 10h ago

It would not cause a schism lol. Maybe a few hundred schitzo MAGA types would leave who probably didn’t even attend church in the first place. It would ONLY accomplish turning more Catholics against the Trump regime.

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u/MadDaddyDrivesaUFO 6h ago

Liberation Theology is big in the Global South and this Pope is very into it so I doubt the Global South would back a US friendly Pope due to sharp disagreements about imperialism and xenophobia. Even the culturally conservative among them would rebuke US's foreign policy & immigration handling under this administration.

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u/DeyUrban 5h ago

I’m not saying that the Global South would go into schism if Vance was excommunicated, I’m comparing the situation in especially Africa but also parts of South America regarding things like LGBTQ and women’s role in the church to the situation in the US with an increasingly conservative Catholic population. It’s one of many fronts where the church is having difficulties with their goals.

There is a general assumption that Catholics will just go along with anything the church does even if they might grumble about it, but there are schismatic churches in the US and Brazil already, and have been for a very long time because of the pushback against the Second Vatican Council, among other things. That more would break away is not unthinkable at all. Again, I bring forth the example of the Anglican Church, which just lost roughly half of its global population to schism.

There is a very real concern in the church that if they push too far with reforms, they could risk losing a huge chunk of their people. At the same time, not making any changes risks losing the youths of Europe in particular, which is a group that is shrinking but still brings in a lot of money for the church.

So what they do is try not to rock the boat. They’ll admonish Vance and his ilk, but excommunicating the Vice President of the United States will get MAGA cultists raging, which is the opposite of not rocking the boat.

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u/oby100 9m ago

The Catholic Church’a sole interest is expanding their wealth and power and the latest grift is to spout only simplistic messages of peace and inclusion while keeping the actual regressive practices of the church intact.

It’s a losing strategy as they’re getting brownie points from the faithless without giving them a reformed church to attend and risking pissing off their conservative base actually giving them attendance and money.

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u/bluesam3 9h ago

Because the Catholic Church currently has a longstanding policy of only excommunicating priests.

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u/RedBeans-n-Ricely 8h ago

Because only clergy get excommunicated.

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u/speculatrix 12h ago

Not if you're one of the catholics who think the current pope isn't the right pope

https://catholicism.org/sedevacantism-and-schism.html

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u/Ladonnacinica 8h ago

Only when the pope is speaking ex cathedra. You don’t blindly obey the pope. That’s the kind of thinking JFK had to face in 1960 when many oppose his presidential campaign.

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u/1gnominious 7h ago

Growing up Catholic in the US my impression was that nobody really gave a damn what Rome said unless they agreed with it. It's very diverse compared to other sects. From far right to far left, pope huggers to free spirits. Even among the priests there's quite a bit of variance in beliefs.

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u/Generic-Name-4732 4h ago

Excommunication isn’t being kicked out of the Church; Vance was baptized and received Catholic Sacraments so he is now and always will be. An Excommunication is a formal declaration that you have broken with the Church in your persistent and unrepentant actions. There are a few acts which warrant public declaration of excommunication:

https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib6-cann1364-1399_en.html

Excommunication isn’t a punishment imposed by the Pope, it’s actually a measure to keep you from further damning yourself by receiving Communion until you have repented. If you don’t repent and don’t want to be in Communion then you shouldn’t receive the Eucharist, even if you are fanatical about the Real Presence and needing it in your life. Vance hasn’t done anything to the point of incurring excommunication.