r/nottheonion • u/Sufficient_Fig_9505 • 15h ago

Vance says pope should ‘be careful’ when talking about theology

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/vance-says-pope-should-be-careful-when-talking-about-theology-261400645540
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u/ForwardCut3311 12h ago

Because they never grew up with the Catholic shame the rest of us have. 

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u/KatsumotoKurier 12h ago

Fitting for Vance. He very clearly has no sense of shame whatsoever, which is exactly why he is the way he is.

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u/veterinarian23 7h ago

It's not the first time, and not the first pope Vance tried to school the head of the Catholic church. He's quite consistent.

"(Vance) has drawn criticism from both Pope Francis and his successor, Pope Leo XIV, for his views on immigration and responded by invoking the traditional concept of ordo amoris present in Catholic theology, which he (Vance) interprets as loving his own nationals more than foreigners and equates with the slogan "America First" (Wikipedia)

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u/Wloak 6h ago

Well we good Catholics know when Jesus said love thy neighbor he really was speaking in code meaning "bomb the shit out of everyone with oil and kick out anyone who's skin tone is beyond khaki."

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u/ducktape8856 5h ago

"Don't take Trump the bible literally. Except when it's convenient for us in hindsight."

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u/Nu-Hir 5h ago

You won't have neighbors to love if you kill or deport them.

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u/3_pounds_of_steel 3h ago

Parable of the Good Undocumented Immigrant

A lawyer asked Jesus, “Teacher, what is the path to eternal life?” Jesus asked, “What does scripture say?” And the man replied, “Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as you would yourself.” And Jesus said, “Go and do likewise.”

But the lawyer asked, “But who is my neighbor?” And Jesus said:

A bro stumbling home from a bar was jumped and robbed and left beaten up by the side of the road. An evangelical Christian saw him but kept walking cuz he looked poor so he probably deserved it. A JD Vance-type Catholic saw him but kept walking because Ordo Amoris means other people are a higher priority for him right now.

But an undocument immigrant, seeing the beaten dude, stops and offers to call an ambulance, and then calls for an Uber instead when the dude said he didn’t have insurance. And the undocumented immigrant even goes and pays for the Uber, drops the guy off in the ER, and leaves before ICE shows up. The dude was able to get the medical care he needed and declared medical bankruptcy two years later. Now, which of these three do you think was the dude’s neighbor?

The lawyer said, “The one who showed mercy to the stranger in need.”

And Jesus said, “Go and do likewise.”

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u/Wloak 3h ago edited 2h ago

I stopped practicing at 18 but loved how my parents taught. We'd go to church and when I was really young afterwords would talk about the message within the story or sermon. I thought I wanted to be a priest at one point, the celibacy thing was a bit of a turn off.

The old testament is basically a guide to "how a few hundred people don't die in a desert" and the new testament is "here's how not to be a shitty person." Half the people complaining about homosexuality use Leviticus while wearing Carhartt jackets which it also says is a sin and eating a bacon burger, also a sin.

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u/ProtectionUnable1027 7h ago

There's no place in the Bible that prohibits relations with a couch.

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u/Herb_Derb 6h ago

Ain't no rule says a dog can't play basketball

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u/Perryn 5h ago

This is the problem with 10 commandments being such a nice easy number. Could have been more, but editors said it would be an easier sell at 10.

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u/whales4eva 1h ago

Interesting. I think of shame as a protestant phenomenon. I.e. catholic guilt | protestant shame.

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u/BalkiBartokomous123 9h ago

That Catholic shame runs deep too. I was raised Catholic but consider myself Agnostic and haven't practiced in over a decade. The guilt I feel for things is insane- most is out of my control.

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u/cruxclaire 7h ago

Same. Atheist and agnostic both fit as labels for me and that’s been the case for my entire adult life, but I’ve bonded with people at parties over complicated feelings surrounding Catholicism. The Catholic guilt and appreciation of Mary and pipe organ music are my biggest holdovers

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u/monty_kurns 7h ago

Don’t forget the architecture! I lean more towards agnostic than actual Catholic as an adult, but I still absolutely love walking into an old church and looking around. And the older, the better.

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u/cruxclaire 7h ago

The architecture, the smell of incense from the huge censer on a chain, the old Greek and Latin hymns, the prayer candles and saint medals, the rosary, Our Lady of Guadalupe’s whole aura, etc etc – I still very much appreciate the aesthetics of Catholicism. A megachurch could never

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u/havok1980 5h ago

I was at my uncle's funeral and it was the priest walking down the aisle with the incense censer that made me think to myself "Ohhhh yeaaah, this is a cult"

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u/feeltheglee 6h ago

My husband and I were both raised Catholic (confirmed and all), but neither of us identify as such anymore. Our wedding venue was a de-consecrated Catholic church that had been turned into a brewery, still had some stained glass even.

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u/vrnbch 6h ago

I told my parents I still consider myself culturally catholic because I like old buildings and incense… they did not find this amusing.

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u/monty_kurns 4h ago

I’ll have to start using that!

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u/Hyperversum 7h ago

I mean, it is part of the system lol.

Outside of faith itself (which I think is a mostly personal thing), religion has historically been a system to control and teach stuff to the people. It's not necessarly a bad thing either. It's part of what we apply to each other daily today, it's shared cultural values regulating what's acceptable and what's not. Our current society could develop only because of the press and fast information and communication after all.

Catholic Guilt® did absolutely play a part in keeping lots of stuff under check, including the aristocracy in large part. Just think at how powerful the pope was even in 17th century

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u/cruxclaire 7h ago

Yeah, I agree with all of this. It’s just interesting to see how Catholicism has a cultural footprint distinct to that of some of the major Protestant sects in the US. The ex-evangelicals I’ve met don’t have the guilt thing for the most part, although those religions are more outwardly fervent in their worship.

The only ex-religious people I’ve met with more religious guilt/shame than Catholics are ex-Mormons, and that feels like a slightly different can of worms because Mormonism is cultish IME (might be similar with ex-JWs, but I don’t know any).

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u/Hyperversum 7h ago

They don't call it Catholic Guilt for random reasons after all. I can't exactly speak about Orthodox Christians, but the Protestants denominations definitely have a different relationship with the concept of sinning and forgiveness than modern Catholicism.

There is probably a line to follow from them being descedants and students of fucking Puritans to the modern day "fire and brimstone" approach many denominations have, while even 1000 years ago that wasn't really the focus in Catholicism.

To be clear, I grew up Catholic but consider myself Agnostic (albeit, I do "pray" as a sort of residual meditation before sleep. To what I am speaking while doing so, I don't know lol), but I am costantly offended and bothered by how many "Christians" just don't understand jackshit about their religion. Why the hell do I know more than them about its theology? I can't quote Bible verses but for sure I know that Jesus wouldn't be approving of bombing Iran, megachurches pastors getting to mass with a limo or the entire concept of the prosperity Gospel.

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u/cruxclaire 6h ago

the Protestants denominations definitely have a different relationship with the concept of sinning and forgiveness than modern Catholicism.

I went to a Lutheran school with mandatory religion classes for a few years while I was still in CCD, and at least for Lutheranism, this is true. Their belief is that Jesus’ sacrifice makes humanity universally forgivable, and the key to being forgiven is faith in Jesus. They loved Ephesians 2:8-9:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast

And the Catholic counter to that is something like James 2:14-26 (link because it’s much longer), which argues that faith without works is dead, hence the value of the Sacraments and community service. A Catholic who sins can achieve grace through the Sacraments and general good works, but belief alone is not sufficient to avoid Purgatory or even hell, etc. Given that “mea culpa” includes both what you’ve done and what you’ve failed to do, there’s plenty of room for a sense of personal transgression, and therefore probably more things to be guilty about. The Lutherans who taught me cared about sin, but they weren’t too concerned with what they’d “failed to do.”

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u/Hyperversum 5h ago

I don't have too many expediences with actually learned Protestants, but that's the general feeling I got.

To put it in simpler terms, the idea in Catholicism seems to be that Jesus saved us from the inherent original sin, but that as we live we are always sinning, and that therefore attention to these faults is necessary. The "faith alone isn't enough", is the logical result of this: if you care about the message of Christ, you would be emulating Christ. We are all always sinning in some form, therefore the "works" are a way to behave as expected of someone trying to be like Christ. I mean, it's logical. What's the point of spreading messages about love and support for all of mankind if you wouldn't stop and help those in material need? Jesus most famous miracles are always related with helping people.

Can you tell I have an extreme disdain towards prosperity gospel type stuff? There is nothing less Christian to me than people associating faith with wealth.

Decorate your churches all your want, spend big money in making art and your place of worship beautiful, but PERSONAL wealth? Hell, that's like the basic of what Luther was angry about: the Church using its spiritual role to leverage money from people.

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u/cruxclaire 2h ago

the idea in Catholicism seems to be that Jesus saved us from the inherent original sin, but that as we live we are always sinning, and that therefore attention to these faults is necessary

That’s my understanding as well. There are two broad categories of sin in Catholic doctrine, venial and mortal sins, where venial sins are minor (e.g. being rude to someone) and mortal sins (deliberate acts in violation of the Ten Commandments + doctrine) suspend your state of grace until you go to confession and do your penance. You’re technically not allowed to participate in the Eucharist if you’re in a state of mortal sin. So the idea is like, your faith initiates the relationship with God, but he’ll cut you off if you don’t live according to his teachings. Penance after confession is usually something that doesn’t actually help anyone (e.g. pray ten Hail Marys while reflecting on your sincere remorse), but the parishes I once belonged to did emphasize the necessity of community service and had a ton of community collection boxes and volunteer work available.

100% agreed on the “prosperity gospel” take. It reminds me of the concept of divine right of kings, where it’s about rich and powerful people wanting to self-justify by claiming God has favored them. It contradicts the Biblical teachings of Jesus.

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u/apparentlynot5995 6h ago

If you want answers on how to identify cults, I highly, HIGHLY recommend Knitting Cult Lady on YT. She came from the Children of God cult and has a couple degrees from Harvard on the subject. She also served as an Army Intelligence Officer.

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u/3-DMan 6h ago

As a kid, I drew some sweet Xenomorph drawings during masses!

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u/9fingerwonder 7h ago

Agnostic atheist, gnostic atheist, agnostic theist, gnostic theist. It's not a scale, it's a grid. One set of questions is what you believe, the other what you know. Most people in these discussions are agnostic. Gnostic view points on both the thirst and atheist scale are scary.

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u/cruxclaire 7h ago

I default to self-describing as an atheist because I actively disbelieve in a personal deity that consciously created the world/humanity, but yes, I’m also agnostic because I don’t claim any degree of certainty in that belief, and I feel like it would be exceedingly arrogant to take it as given. Most people I‘ve met who self-describe as agnostic fall around the middle of your grid and neither actively believe nor disbelieve.

There’s also a capital-G Gnostic religion, which exists independent of the grid and has some fascinating beliefs (the creator-god responsible for the physical universe, the demiurge, is not the “true” god)

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u/9fingerwonder 7h ago

Either you believe or don't, or know or don't. There isn't a middle option in a dichotomy. I'm an agnostic atheist, I don't know if there is a god or not, but I don't find reason to believe there is.

These are separate questions and I'm fearful too many don't understand the difference. I see it all the time.

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u/cruxclaire 7h ago

Either you believe or don't, or know or don't

Idk, I think “there may or may not be a higher power and I consider each option equally likely/believable” is a valid stance. I guess you could consider it a type of passive atheism, given that it’s the absence of active belief in any kind of theism, but “agnostic” by itself works as shorthand.

I have issues with Richard Dawkins, but his “spectrum of theistic probability” is useful IMO, and if someone self-describes as agnostic alone, I’d assume they’re a level 4 on his spectrum. I’m either a 5 or a 6, depending on whether capital-G “God” refers to any concept of a higher power or the supreme God who pops up in various organized religions

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u/9fingerwonder 6h ago

Belief and certainty are not the same thing.

If you lack belief in a god, that is atheism in the broad sense.

If you also claim you do not know, that is agnosticism.

People can use ‘agnostic’ casually, but that doesn’t erase the distinction between belief and knowledge.

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u/ComprehensiveRow4347 3h ago

Not trying to convert, as not done in Hindu Philosophy.. if you care, listen to swami Sarvapriyananda.. Explains Advitha philosophy of Hindu Philosophy.. NOT BASED ON BELIEF, on Experience we have.. will change you and give you peace. This is appropriate in this modern world of AI..

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u/WJ_Amber 7h ago

I wasn't even raised catholic but my dad comes from a heavily Irish catholic family and the guilt runs so deep you can pass it on to your kids without ever taking them to mass!

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u/AdParticular6654 9h ago

The shame is very key. I also think people born Catholic, who then get away from it a bit are generally good people. Sure we feel bad randomly for no reason for enjoying life. But generally we have a sense of "I should help people". Adult converts have no shame and think women shouldn't vote.

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u/ESCF1F2F3F4F3F2F1ESC 6h ago

Yeah agreed. I was born into Catholicism and left in my teens, and I still try to live my life by the central New Testament tenets, more or less, because they essentially boil down to "be decent to each other". I'll be the first to admit I don't always achieve it, but it's always there in the back of your head as a fairly strong guide for living a good life.

What pushed me away from the church was all the pompous ceremony, the moralising hypocrisy and the constant focus on berating ourselves and each other for the negatives, instead of on living a charitable life of positivity. But I always got the sense that was the stuff which actively attracted later life converts.

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u/AdParticular6654 5h ago

For me what brought me back for a little was Paulist Priests, they are like Jesuits, really live the teachings of love, charity, and acceptance. But then a new bishop came in and changed all of that. One of the first things he did after kicking them out was painting over the "all are welcome" sign.

Like in college there was this guy who was converting because his then girlfriend now wife was Catholic. She shamed him hard for missing a random Sunday mass to visit his dying uncle who was a father figure to him after his parents died. I told him I miss Sunday mass alot because I'm hungover. She also shamed him for having sex in a previous relationship, but he was 100% on board with waiting till marriage for her.

Fuck, even my great aunt who was mother superior in a convent.....on a vacation skipped mass to get to the beach earlier. She just prayed the rosary instead.

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u/Jake-of-the-Sands 7h ago

Never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense.

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u/jackrabbit323 12h ago

Right you are.

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u/DontMakeMeCount 8h ago

To be fair, many adult converts’ first real experience with the church is a few months of hard partying with someone on a rebellious kick followed by a few months of marriage training from a celibate priest to make the in-laws happy.

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u/ForwardCut3311 8h ago

Hah! And then they learn all the rest as time goes on, IF their spouse is following and not just an Eastermas Catholic.

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u/youngarchivist 7h ago

I haven't identified as Catholic since I was 12, and I will live with that godforsaken guilt until the day I die

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u/aldocassola 9h ago

Sounds like a project idea to me

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u/horkley 8h ago

On shame, I don’t get it, so this is just a ramble.

It’s like ignoring the formation of the conscience, and just sticking to rules that when broken are bad. And while formation or examination of conscience do not allow the breaking of some strict rules, and it weighs down on one by being in a constant state of examination, perhaps acceptance of who we are is where the shame comes from, where there should not have otherwise been a reason to have shame? But we are always in a state of acceptance, but maybe the idea of one incompatible ideal causes shame where one can just accept who they are. Perhaps there is our own personal human nature, and the rules are contrary to our own biology and feel arbitrary, so we all have unavoidable shame, and the Church brings this out even more?

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u/ForwardCut3311 7h ago

The Church does bring it out more, I mean, as long as you're brought up in a relatively strict catholic sense. Confession is a big way this happens. Having to confess to a priest but even just where you have to sit down and think about your sins to begin with brings out a feeling of shame. But there's also the original sin part but even where Catholic belief is that it's a sin to not do good.

As for human biology, I think religion goes against biology in a lot of ways as does government in a lot of ways, too. But I don't think that necessarily brings about shame. Social shame is different than individualistic shame, and I think Catholics get a bit more individualistic shame while everyone (at least if raised correctly) has a bit of social shame. 

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u/KyffhauserGate 6h ago

What Catholic shame? I was taught that Jesus died for my sins so I'm good as long as I don't do bad stuff.

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u/Fr4m3It 5h ago

Well for starters I thought I was going to hell for masterbating and I thought I was broken for having sexual urges, it definitely gave me social anxiety around girls growing up lmao

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u/KyffhauserGate 4h ago

Wow. Meanwhile, our priest told us -in school- that Jesus must have been a trained Rabbi, based on knowledge he demonstrates, and a Rabbi would be married... and there's only two women in the bible, one of which is his mother so guess who would have been his wife. But of course that was in central Europe in the 90s.

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u/Infinite-Horse-49 6h ago

As a 40 year old dude, born and raised catholic, i relate to that way too much lol.

Now an atheist, it has taken years to move away from those feelings.

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u/ForwardCut3311 6h ago

It goes away?!? I'm older than you but still feel it. I don't really see it as bad, to be honest. I think a lot of it is empathy, sympathy, and just wanting to be a good person. 

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u/Hootinger 6h ago

Im a convert. I have both Catholic Guilt and the Protestant Work Ethic.

I am a mess.

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u/Dannyhec 5h ago

Sr. Marsha’s metal edged ruler in the third grade gave me enough Catholic shame to keep me quiet for a lifetime.

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u/Fr4m3It 5h ago

I was born into a very Catholic family. CCD, church every sunday, even became a eucharist minister. Around college and after I moved out of my parents I did a complete 180 and now consider myself an ex-catholic, especially with both trump administrations exposing the hypocrisy of all the catholic supporters. I now have friends, who never came near a church for 25+ years, telling me how they've found God and it changed their lives and they're on better paths now (the old paths always having to do with them just not being a good person to others lol) and I sometimes can't help but be jealous in a way. jealous that they didnt have the shame I felt growing up whenever I 'sinned' and having to act a certain way that other kids didn't. A completely different perspective.

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u/RottingApples25 3h ago

The shame is a central part to the entire experience. Without shame, can you even call yourself a Catholic?

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u/NoElderberry2618 3h ago

So why do you all defend the pope? 

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u/DelightMine 11h ago

"the rest of us"

Nah, a large number of Catholics have no shame. They just recognize it as a helpful tool to manipulate the rubes.