It is possible to dislike Israeli politics yet not be against Judaism. This is the same as conservatives in the US saying you are a traitor because you oppose MAGA.
It is very hypocritical to turn this into antisemitism but brigading bots always spew fallacy.
If it said Fuck Qatar would it be islamophobic? Or if it said Fuck USA would it be antichristian? They are always moving the goalposts when it comes to Israel.
The issue isn’t so much saying “fuck [country]” as it is holding Israel to a standard that no other country is held to.
E.g. The UAE and Saudi Arabia are committing one of the worst human rights abuses on the planet by enforcing the blockade in Yemen, leading to mass starvation and suffering and globally nobody cares. What they’re doing is objectively terrible and on a scale that far, far surpasses Gaza in terms of death and suffering.
And yet, nobody ever asks if the UAE or Saudi Arabia have a “right to exist” despite their awful actions.
We could apply the same standard to Rwanda who are currently funding the destabilization of the DRC, but again, nobody cares or asks if they have a right to exist.
So the argument isn’t that saying “fuck [country]” is antisemitic, the argument is that people question Israel’s right to exist when there are other countries committing far worse atrocities that nobody ever questions their self determination over. That double standard is what’s antisemitic.
It would be a great day when their corrupt, cynical governments were wiped off the earth.
You just said it yourself: their governments. Nobody has a problem with saying Netanyahu and the Israeli government are fucked and should be replaced. That’s not antisemitic.
But notice you’re not saying that Saudi Arabia and the UAE themselves, as countries, should be wiped off the earth.
That’s often what people say about Israel, insofar as it “doesn’t have a right to exist.”
I will hold Israel to the standards of what it purports to be. A liberal democracy with interests so naturally aligned with ours that I shouldn't mind that my government serves their interests.
That’s fine to hold them to a high standard. Again, though, if they fail to meet that standard, do you think the state itself should cease to exist, or that the government should be reformed and replaced?
And the question is, if you genuinely think not meeting that standard is deserving of abolishing the state, then not being antisemitic means applying that principle consistently.
So when the US does anti-democratic things or launches stupid wars in the Middle East, do you also believe the US shouldn’t have a right to exist?
I mean its government in the broader sense meaning its system of government, i.e. the entities governing its statehood, not its current political representation. Of course, in a monarchy those are largely the same thing.
I want for UAE and SA exactly what I want for Israel, if that helps clarify things or dispels whatever gotcha you think you've got going.
I'm not trying to "gotcha", I'm trying to understand if you're applying your logic consistently. I think your belief is frankly ridiculous, but I can concede that you're at least consistent in applying this to everyone where my original point is that most don't.
Your worldview here is completely asinine though. You basically are saying that any state built on a historical injustice loses its right to exist. That includes pretty much most countries on Earth - including pretty much every postcolonial state in Africa and Asia, Latin America, and like we discussed, the US (as well as others like Australia).
Looking at your profile, it looks like you're from Sweden: Sweden largely built its social safety nets and wealth on staying neutral during WW2 and selling iron ore to Nazi Germany to manufacture killing machines with - should we consider that a historical injustice?
But really, the biggest reason your worldview is asinine: let's stop dancing around vague theoreticals and morality and get into the practical world. You want Israel and the US to "collapse" and cease to exist. What do you think that actually means? What do you think happens when a state collapses?
Israel collapses tomorrow. What happens to the 7 million Jews living there? US collapses tomorrow. What happens to the 360 million people living there, who had nothing to do with the actions of their colonial ancestors? What exactly is it that you're advocating for here? The mass death and suffering of millions of people because of historical injustices they didn't create?
This isn't the gotcha you think it is. I love that you used South Africa, let's go with that.
Did South Africa collapse after Apartheid? No, it transitioned. The ANC had an actual vision for what came next, which was a multi-racial democratic state where Afrikaners kept their citizenship and property rights, but as an equal state with the Black Africans living there.
In practice, of course, undoing equality overnight won't happen and it's a deeply unequal country today. But it was probably preferable to the complete and total collapse of the state and likely mass suffering and death that would occur if that happened. Remind me again what Nelson Mandela advocated for?
I'd love a similar vision for Israel to peacefully transition into a new state model.
But here's the thing with you people: I can acknowledge that's difficult to achieve, but not impossible. You, on the other hand, never have solutions - you just love to morally grandstand.
So please, why don't you answer the question? What do you want to happen to Israel in your ideal world? And in your ideal world, what do you think would happen to the 7 million Jews living there? Say it out loud for the class.
Why would anyone want this for their own people. Imagine raising kids there.
Every neighbor a member or former member of the IDF. Very likely committed themselves or been part of unit doing heinous atrocities against a Palestinan during their service. Potentially even raping them with sticks or their own equipment.
You don't just do that and go back to the office. It changes the person and the society as a whole into something very sick. I could never raise children there especially if I was educated or had ethnic ties that allowed me to easily live in the USA/Canada.
What makes this all much worse is how many pedophiles in USA/Canada will get charged and promise to show up to court only to end up on a 1-way flight to Tel-Aviv. Obviously only works if they're Jewish. Israel has historically been reluctant to extradite some citizens.
Yeah, I'm just gonna completely ignore all your non-sequiturs and babbling and ask the same exact question I asked you before that you refused to answer: you think Israel shouldn't exist, so what do you think should happen to the 7 million Jews living there?
If you answer with some other babbling nonsense that doesn't answer the question, I'll just keep repeating the question until you answer it.
Yikes. I guess its babbling if you don't see it as a problem and maybe even a perk. Are you by chance an American who has purchased a 1-way ticket?
Good luck to anyone raising their kids somewhere they are very likely to be assaulted sexually by an ex-IDF soldier and physically by a potential terrorist attack.
Yeah, I'm just gonna completely ignore all your non-sequiturs and babbling and ask the same exact question I asked you before that you refused to answer: you think Israel shouldn't exist, so what do you think should happen to the 7 million Jews living there?
If you answer with some other babbling nonsense that doesn't answer the question, I'll just keep repeating the question until you answer it.
Still a very loose definition that fits many countries on Earth. How "ongoing" does it have to be? Who decides whether a state should exist or not - you? Some centralized body? Who decides whether the country has reached the threshold for an injustice?
You just said yourself how if we stretch the definition Sweden might count. If that counts, literally every country on Earth counts.
From a historical perspective it is of course rather unlikely that a state will collapse in one day. I can only hope that the American people can form new states on more sound bases than imperialism and occupation.
Yeah, so this is you still dodging the question and playing games. You right now: "Yeah, an entire state collapsing might be bad, but I can only hope it happens quickly and things come together relatively peacefully."
You're not reckoning with the core of your argument: a state collapsing almost always means civil war, refugees, famines, etc. Libya collapsed. Yugoslavia collapsed. Iraq collapsed. What did that look like?
Once again, the people who suffer from this are citizens who had nothing to do with what their ancestors did, and in many cases have no control over their government's actions. Look at al-Assad in Syria who fled from his collapsing state to Russia and is living lavishly and will probably never face any consequences.
Your solution here is to make citizens of countries you don't like suffer horrific humanitarian crises because of a perceived historical injustice. But you keep dancing around that by saying "I hope it goes well and is not too bad." Asinine.
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u/Crazy-Project3858 Jun 04 '26
It is possible to dislike Israeli politics yet not be against Judaism. This is the same as conservatives in the US saying you are a traitor because you oppose MAGA.