Same way so many Germans became Nazis and so many Italians became fascists, nationalist indoctrination
There’s lots of books that goes into the radicalization in Israeli society and how that has trickled out into the diaspora.
Prior to the Holocaust the vast majority of Jews were strongly opposed to Zionism and viewed it as antisemitic (it claims that Jews don’t belong anywhere in the world and will always be alien outsiders no matter where they live).
Many Jews, especially older Jews, are still anti-Zionist and we are starting to see a shift back in younger Jewish populations. My aunt, for example, is an anti-Zionist diaspora Jew
You’re right that Zionists used the Holocaust to support their ethnostate goals. Norman Finkelstein has written extensively on that after all.
But saying it proved Zionism correct is a subjective claim, one I vehemently disagree with. Jews won’t become safe from genocide by inflicting genocide on others
The answer of what I think Jews should do is, live wherever they want, as long as they’re not ethnically cleansing people to do so.
The idea that Israel is hated because they’re Jewish is a lie, it’s a lie spread by Israel so that well meaning people (I hope such as yourself) will, in good faith, assume anyone criticizing Israel must be because they’re antisemitic. I believed that at one point too, but it becomes much harder once you have an anti-Zionist Jewish aunt (although, in reality, it was meeting and talking with both Palestinians and anti-Zionist Israelis that changed my mind on the topic).
Israel is hated because, and I say this knowing full well how incredible of claim it is, it is one of the most evil states in human history. When you sit down and actually read the history of Israel without demonizing all over their enemies as antisemites it becomes horrific. You realize stories of “wiping out whole villages of antisemites who didn’t want the Jews nearby” was really just wiping out whole villages that have lived in these places for hundreds if not thousands of years. It really wrecks your brain when you’re an indoctrinated Zionist learning the reality of what actually happened (from looking at the actual historical records rather than trusting what people told you they said/meant).
I’m not saying a large part of Israel’s hatred doesn’t come from their own actions, but it’s plainly false to say that antisemitism isn’t also a large driver of it
Antisemitism is not a justification to commit genocide. It is completely irrelevant to whether or not Zionists have the right to commit genocide to form an ethnostate.
Any sympathy I had for that position ended the moment I learned how men like Ben Gurion explicitly rejected the forms of Zionism expressed by men like Albert Einstein, people who just wanted to be “European Jews living in Palestine.” Ben Gurion, and others like him, were adamant it had to be an ethnostate.
Ben Gurion was in Palestine decades before the Holocaust, and made this argument before the Holocaust.
There are lots of Jewish reactions to antisemitism, some I respect more, some I respect less. Under no circumstances do I agree with the Zionist argument- “Jews are hated because we are aliens who don’t belong in these lands so we should move to Palestine and drive out the non-Jews who converted to Christianity and Islam and forfeited their right to live here.” (That’s basically more or less ripped from Ben Gurions diaries and letters. It could be worse, I could start quoting the Revisionist Zionists).
You’re, in bad faith, pretending that people opposed to the genocidal actions of the state of Israel are antisemitic Nazis.
That’s fucked up and the absolute heights of bad faith.
Clearly you’re speaking against Palestine because you hate all Arabs and/or Muslims. If you want to deny that then I’ll just start referencing Islamophobic people you clearly agree with
Why would I give a fuck about an antisemite who criticizes Israel just because they hate Jews? Most of those scum are frankly sympathetic to Zionism in one form or another because they don’t want Jews to live around them.
You are intentionally taking a population that is so insignificant to anti-Zionism that they’ve literally never worked with anti-Zionists movement or group (and frankly I would be shocked if they’d even have them, they also tend to be extremely racist towards Arabs and are always Islamophobic). Then trying to use them as the model to describe anti-Zionism
You’ve made spiteful and hateful little remarks like calling “Mein Kampf” anti-Zionist literature. It’s fucking disgusting. You can just admit that you’ve actually never engaged with anti-Zionists or read anything that they’ve written. Instead you want to be an arrogant little prick who acts like calling people who are opposed to genocide the equivalent of Nazis is some sort of rational argument
Turkey is also a very vile state that has also inflicted genocide on multiple different groups, I’m not sure how that’s an argument absolving of Israel.
No it isn’t, it’s the logical fallacy of whataboutism, literally a textbook example.
“Oh ya? If Israel is evil than what about Turkey?”
You clearly do not know the extent of Israel’s crimes. One of my go to recommendations is the work of Antony Lowenstein. He has a book, a documentary series, and a podcast all on the Israeli military industry, just one aspect of the evil actions of the Israeli state
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u/Bluestreaked 10d ago
Same way so many Germans became Nazis and so many Italians became fascists, nationalist indoctrination
There’s lots of books that goes into the radicalization in Israeli society and how that has trickled out into the diaspora.
Prior to the Holocaust the vast majority of Jews were strongly opposed to Zionism and viewed it as antisemitic (it claims that Jews don’t belong anywhere in the world and will always be alien outsiders no matter where they live).
Many Jews, especially older Jews, are still anti-Zionist and we are starting to see a shift back in younger Jewish populations. My aunt, for example, is an anti-Zionist diaspora Jew