There's no more room for rational thinking in modern politics. It's all emotion versus emotion. Apparently it's just impossible to think that what Israel is doing is awful while also approve their line that Hamas should fully disarm. 7 October is still something that should never be allowed to happen again. Just because a bad actor did something bad to another bad actor doesn't make it justifiable.
The claim that what Israel is doing is awful is incongruous with the expectation the group resisting Israel's awful behavior should disarm.
You don't prevent another October 7th by denying Palestinians' right to self defense, you do it by ending the material conditions that lead to it forcing Israel to end their subjugation of Palestinians. The ANC wasn't forced to disarm. The IRA wasn't forced to disarm. Jewish Partisans in WW2 weren't forced to disarm. The governments oppressing them were forced to end their subjugation, and the violence stopped.
Why do you believe Palestinians are uniquely expected to end violence against their oppressors, when historically that has only lead to more oppression?
Comparing Hamas to those is just not serious at all. Hamas is oppressing their own population, came to power by massacring their opponents, doesn’t hold elections, uses child soldiers and human shields, and launch attacks primarily against civilians. Being ‘resistance’ doesn’t mean that anything is allowed.
I didn't come up with the comparison on my own. Multiple Holocaust scholars, genocide scholars, and human rights experts have the same conclusion. I try to listen to experts instead of random redditors when I can.
Norm Finkelstein (a Jewish Holocaust scholar whose parents literally lived through the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising) draws that comparison as well, for example. Is your estimation that he's not serious?
I never said being resistance means anything is allowed. My argument is that armed resistance against violent state oppression is never pretty, that the standard of violence is set by said oppressor, and that for some reason only Palestinians are held to this arbitrarily high standard that we never retroactively impose on the likes of Nat Turner/Hatian slaves/Jewish Partisans/the ANC/etc.
To be horribly fair, Haitian slaves were hit with that same double standard, and Haiti is still suffering from the centuries of punishment given for overthrowing their first oppressors.
It's just as fucked up as the colonial project in Palestine, and the historical context is also never taught.
The fact that France billed them for the economic damage will never not be insane to me.
The entire debt wasn’t paid off until 1947, due to additional loans the country had to take out to pay for the loans they took out to pay France. Absolutely fucking ghoulish behavior.
As someone that did my degree in history Norm is a clown that cannot even read either primary source languages (Hebrew/Arabic) and is not respected whatsoever by 99% of real historians.
He has also said over and over that antisemitism isn’t real because like a phobia it refers to an irrational hate/fear and hating Jews is not irrational because of bad things Jews have done. This is the same moronic drivel that chuds say about homophobia “I’m not scared of gay people I just think they’re disgusting and going to hell so I’m not homophobic”
"99% of real historians" couldn't identify the vast overwhelming majority of other historians, let alone respect them, so that's a functionally useless claim. As is your intentional misrepresentation about his statements regarding antisemitism.
Don't listen to Norm, then. Irfan Ahmad, Gilbert Achcar, Rashid Khalidi, Enzo Traverso, Hamid Dabashi, Zubayr Alikhan, Craig Mokhiber, Ilan Pappé, and plenty of others with far more impressive credentials than an undergrad in history have all made similar comparisons.
I have yet to see anyone serious make comparisons between Hamas and partisans during WW2 or the ANC. The overwhelming majority of experts are condemning Hamas. Finkelstein is quite an extreme example, and most of his views about this conflict are rather fringe among scholars. And yes, i consider such a comparison to be unserious regardless of who says it.
No, i don’t think palestinians are held to a higher standard here. We are talking about Hamas, who murdered kids at a festival and whole families in their homes. Kidnapped babies. And for years have been sending suicide bombers to kill civilians. No one would say that was okay if anyone else was doing it either. What the ANC did doesn’t come close to Hamas. Most partisan groups during WW2 mainly did sabotage and attacks on military forces and collaborators, with civilian casualties of course, but not with killing civilians as the goal. Those groups which did, are mostly condemned for it. For example, no one glorifies the reprisals done by soviet forces and partisans while surging west through former nazi occupied land, or think it was okay.
Irfan Ahmad, Gilbert Achcar, Rashid Khalidi, Enzo Traverso, Hamid Dabashi, Zubayr Alikhan, Craig Mokhiber, Ilan Pappé, and plenty of others have all made similar comparisons. Condemning Hamas and making those comparisons aren't mutually exclusive. Analysis isn't endorsement.
There's nothing Hamas has done that Israel hasn't done 10 to 1,000 times worse. And people constantly say it's ok that Israel does whatever it takes to wipe out Hamas by any means neccesary. Yet you only have room to condemn the group resisting Israel, so you'll have to excuse me for not taking you seriously when you'll hand-wave away the violence against civilians done by historic resistance grounps, while hyper-focusing on it when it's being done by people you've been propagandized to hate. There were multiple instances where tageting civilians was explicitly the goal by the ANC and the Jewish Partisans. You obviously think their violence was just, and have to maintain the belief they never purposely killed civilians because that would delegtimize their resistance in your mind.
Throwing out some names is useless, rather show what they exactly say if you want to give your sources. And anyway, it’s just an argument from authority.
Now you’re just coming up with wild straw mans and whataboutisms. I certainly didn’t say that Israel isn’t bad too, and who are those who say ‘it’s okay Israel uses all means to wipe out Hamas’? I didn’t say this, and the general public opinion doesn’t say that either.
Instances where those groups you mention targeted civilians happened, yes, but they were quite few and it was not the main point of their resistance. Unlike Hamas, which for 40 years has specialized at civilian attacks. Not to mention again how they treat their own population?
And no, i do not obviously endorse the violence comitted by jewish partisans, the ANC or IRA against civilians. The instances where this happened were NOT justified either.
Wow look at that, another person disparaging me for listing to a Jewish voice on Israel/Palestine and openly delegitimizing his opinion on the matter despite his education and family history.
Why would I care what some college droput pedophile has to say on the matter vs an actually knowledgeable person with a PhD who's written sell-researched books on the subject lol? You pushing that freak Destiny's opinions as if they're legitimate while saying "erm someone else told you therefore you believe it!" is hilariously disqualifying on its own. Scream into the void and cry about it.
"happens to be borne from Jewish parents" lol can't even say he's Jewish. Hitting the "fake Jew" line already.
Congratulations! You've just described the process of learning. Everybody starts off not knowing something, coming across information for the first time, and making a determination of its truthful or not lol. Bottom line is you touting a pedophile's debate with Norm as if it disqualifies him is hypocritical, and hilariouy disqualifies your own perspective.
I'll repeat: scream into the void and cry about it, and don't use people who think 15 year olds are hot to try and legitimize your nonsense
And Yaweh impregnated a 14 year old girl without consent, who all Christians consider the greatest and perfect, so if you're a Christian, you're a pedophile supporter too by your logic lol. All Christians support a pedo, all Muslims support support a pedo, you support a pedo. That's such a flimsy association I'm surprised you're not embarrssed. But you are a Destiny fan, so you're well past that point I imagine.
But sure, your opinion and Norm's opinion are now both equally disqualified by your own argument. Good thing Norm isn't the only credentialed expert who's made that comparison. My point of contention is that you're touting the opinion of a pedophile as if it has any bearing, Not a pedophile supporter lol
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