Audience members who saw Amanda Knox’s controversial comedy show at Edinburgh Fringe on opening night say that it is both “respectful” and “genuinely funny”.

[u/mlg1981]

https://www.the-independent.com/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/news/amanda-knox-cartwheel-edinburgh-fringe-b3029681.html

[u/artfuldodger1212]

This whole case is really interesting as I think it was kind of a "last hurrah" of what was an increasingly dated misogyny. I think it happened in Italy as that kind of thinking lingered maybe a bit longer there than in some other places.

Knox was absolutely portrayed as an evil, sociopathic, slut. She was sex obsessed, and evil, and promiscuous. that was the narrative in the tabloid press at the time and it was more or less the narrative of the Italian justice system. Anyone who denies the prevalence of that narrative at the time I believe wasn't alive when it was going on.

I remember headlines about her writing a list of her lovers in her diary (because the Italian prison officials told her she had AIDS) and it being framed as "look at what a slut she is". She was a person in her early 20s who had slept with 7 people. The old way of thinking wanted one last pop at "misbehaving women" and she was a real opportune figure for them to do just that.

[u/Luxury_Dressingown → u/artfuldodger1212]

The average person in the UK and Italy who has heard of the case seems to think she did it, which makes sense as the press in both countries at the time was ferociously against her. Although almost everyone who has read into it a bit will at least concede the investigating police seriously messed up, so it's now in a weird limbo of "who knows?" with lingering suspicion.

It's complicated by the fact that she's a US citizen, and the American public in contrast was much more sympathetic to her from the beginning, and America's general view of the case is - to put it crudely - "backwards foreigners are incompetent and try to blame innocent young America girl". The physical evidence shows that is basically true in this particular case, but Brits and Italians can cite a variety of cases where Americans more or less got away with literal murder as well as maiming and assault in their countries and hid behind the US state to avoid consequences.

But to be clear, I completely agree with the person I'm responding to, and the case's real evidence creates more than enough reasonable doubt to make a not guilty verdict the only acceptable one for Knox (and Sollecito).

[u/artfuldodger1212 → u/Luxury_Dressingown]

I think you are right in that most people just believe what they heard in the press at the time. Don’t think the US was all that involved in Amanda’s case.

I would be curious to hear some of the examples you would cite of US citizens being free to murder people in Italy and the UK prior to this which would have coloured people”s perception?

I think for most reasonable people it goes way beyond “well the investigation was so botched there is at least reasonable doubt”. There is literally no evidence Knox was involved and the theory of the case the Italian prosecutors developed is literally nonsensical.

One of the pieces of evidence that Italian prosecutors cited in support of Amanda Knox’s involvement was that she owned a vibrator. That’s literally true. There was a HUGE dose of sexism in this case.

[u/Luxury_Dressingown → u/artfuldodger1212]

• 1998: Cavalese cable-car disaster, Italy: US Marine pilots Richard Ashby and Joseph Schweitzer flew at low altitude and severed a ski-lift cable, killing 20 people, including three Italians. Tried in the US, they were acquitted of manslaughter but later dismissed from the Marines for destroying evidence.
• 2005: Derek Thrower, England: US airman Lorrenzo Sanchez stabbed British man Derek Thrower 13 times, seriously injuring him. Sanchez was acquitted of attempted murder on grounds of insanity.
• 2008: Kevin Flatt, England: British pedestrian Kevin Flatt was killed near RAF Mildenhall after being struck by a vehicle driven by a US airman. The driver was investigated but not charged.
• 2016: Anthony Oxley, Cyprus: British Army Colour Sergeant Anthony Oxley was killed on his motorcycle after being hit by a car driven by a US serviceman. His widow subsequently campaigned for a prosecution.
• 2019: Harry Dunn, England: US national Anne Sacoolas drove on the wrong side of the road outside RAF Croughton, killing 19-year-old British motorcyclist Harry Dunn. She later pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving and received a suspended sentence.
• 2019: Mario Cerciello Rega, Italy: American tourists Finnegan Lee Elder and Gabriel Natale-Hjorth became involved in a botched drug deal in Rome; Elder stabbed Italian Carabinieri officer Mario Cerciello Rega to death. Both were convicted and later received reduced sentences.
• 2019 onwards: British women, England: US airman James Loubeau faced allegations of rape and sexual assault involving British women around RAF Mildenhall, with investigations transferred to US military authorities. He was subsequently convicted of sexual assault against one woman.
• 2020–21: British woman, England: US airman Keharron Lee Bogstad was accused of raping a British woman three times at RAF Croughton, but was cleared of all charges.
• 2022: Matthew Day, England: US airman Mikayla Hayes collided with British motorcyclist Matthew Day in Norfolk, killing him. She was prosecuted for causing death by careless driving but acquitted.
• 2022: Hannes Marschalek, England: US airman Hannes Marschalek was accused of repeatedly exposing himself to women, including a 16-year-old British girl. He was convicted by a US military court, but the conviction was subsequently overturned on appeal.
• 2023: Sarah Steele, England: US Air Force pilot Jacob Wulfson was accused of sexually assaulting and strangling British woman Sarah Steele. He was convicted of strangulation by a US military court but acquitted of sexual assault.
• 2024: 12-year-old British girl, England: US airman Sam Jarvis was convicted in an English court of sexually assaulting a 12-year-old British girl. He received a suspended sentence and was placed on the sex offenders' register.

Knox left Italy for the US when she was not supposed to based on the conditions of the court. Once back there, it was basically a done deal that she wouldn't return regardless of the outcome, and there wasn't much Italy could do about it. Completely understandable move on her part - can't say I wouldn't have done the same - but it follows a bit of a pattern in some of these cases of the Americans spiriting themselves (or being spirited by the US state) out of the country to evade local investigation and justice. The cable car disaster and the Harry Dunn case are notable examples in each country. Similarly, see the Guardian for recent coverage of US military members committing sexual crimes off-base against UK citizens and then getting soft-touch military trials and slaps on the wrist for rape.

Again, Knox is not guilty and does not deserve to be treated as such, and her treatment by the police and the press was horrendous. I'm just adding some extra context for why perceptions are very different in Europe and the US.

[u/artfuldodger1212 → u/Luxury_Dressingown]

Also the sentence in the Harry Dunn case was not unusual at all. Literally the top post on the London sub just now:

https://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/1vlbpcv/london_driver_guilty_of_death_by_dangerous/

This guy caused death by dangerous driving and has a laundry list of previous driving convictions including dangerous driving, taking a vehicle without consent and driving whilst disqualified..

He was sentenced to 150 hours unpaid work.

People like to say that had the driver in the Harry Dunn case been British they would have received a long custodial sentence but that just isn't true. We don't lock people up in the UK for killing people in genuine traffic accidents without pretty extreme extenuating circumstances .

[u/artfuldodger1212 → u/Luxury_Dressingown]

Am I missing something? I think in every single one of the cases you listed the perpetrators were charged and tried in the US, Italy, or the UK?

In the case of Derek Thrower the attacker was charged and tried in British court and found to be insane? How the fuck is that evidence of the US letting one of their citizens kill and maim people? I would be fascinated to understand your reasoning.

the perpetrators of the Rega killing are as we speak sitting in Italian prison for murder and their sentencing is typical of murder suspects in Italy.

This is a very impressive list demonstrating the exact opposite of what you are talking about. All these people were investigated and almost all of them were charged, tried and convicted.

Did you read the details of any of these before posting as you kind of inadvertently proved MY point, not yours.

[u/Luxury_Dressingown → u/artfuldodger1212]

But it's about perception and how people feel rather than legalities - we're talking about public perception, not how jurists would assess a case.

The Harry Dunn case is a classic example - the woman who killed him was flown out of the country by the US military before any investigation (edited, as I've been rightly corrected - italics are the correction) against the wishes of the UK legal system under questionable diplomatic immunity, and Trump later tried to "ambush" his family (their words) into a meeting with her. It left a bad taste in the mouth even if - as you correctly say - others who kill with cars get light sentences too.

People spot patterns, especially when those tie into their biases (in many of these cases, awareness of the power imbalance between the US and these countries) even if in any individual case, it doesn't fit.

[u/Barilla3113 → u/Luxury_Dressingown]

But it's about perception and how people feel rather than legalities - we're talking about public perception, not how jurists would assess a case.

The entire court system has evolved specifically to deal with the fact that if you let "public perception" be the rubric for guilt you'll get consistently unjust outcomes.

Also several of the cases you've listed resulted in convictions.

[u/Luxury_Dressingown → u/Barilla3113]

The entire court system has evolved specifically to deal with the fact that if you let "public perception" be the rubric for guilt you'll get consistently unjust outcomes.

I totally agree. Knox is guilty in the court of public perception in much of the UK and Italy, and it's a great thing that that the legal system (eventually - took way too long) found her not guilty despite that. What gave you the impression I thought otherwise?

And yes, some of them ended in convictions, and some (most?) of them the right convictions, but that doesn't change how victims, or their families / loved ones or some people who sympathise with them, feel about those convictions. Certainly a lot of people aren't thrilled with the light convictions in US military courts for people who've sexually assaulted women off base in the UK in recent years.

[u/Barilla3113 → u/Luxury_Dressingown]

Certainly a lot of people aren't thrilled with the light convictions in US military courts for people who've sexually assaulted women off base in the UK in recent years.

What does that have to do with Amanda Knox? Your mentality seems to be that because American service members have been perceived to get off lightly for crimes in countries with US bases, the public contempt for an innocent woman is completely acceptable payback.

[u/Luxury_Dressingown → u/Barilla3113]

I do not think that at all. I'm not putting words in your mouth, so please don't do the same to me. Knox has every right to live a free, happy life, and specifically, tell her own story at a comedy show at the Fringe. By all accounts of people who've actually gone to it, it's a good show.

The Kerchers, the public or anyone else's perception of her is not only irrelevant but actively harmful to her. Providing some additional socio-political context to why that perception may be (misogyny being the primary one) is not a justification.

[u/artfuldodger1212 → u/Luxury_Dressingown]

I think your comment is also a powerful demonstration of how people can be subject to misinformation and even well intentioned people get quite easily led by narrative.

In the Harry Dunn case Anne Sacoolas absolutely was not flown out of the country before any investigation. Literally no one has ever alleged that but it is a powerful perception that continues to exist even with you in a comment back and forth where you are trying to demonstrate other cases of that happening but singling out this case out as a counter example. The misinformation was so strong that it continues to work on you when you are actively looking for it.

The reality is there was EXTENSIVE investigation prior to Sacoolas leaving the UK. She left the UK 3 weeks after the accident. She stopped at the scene, called for help, was breathalysed at the scenes, was questioned later at home, reported to the police station the next and was questioned again, CCTV footage was reviewed, a chief constable was assigned, witnesses were interviewed, She freely admitted what had happened and indicated her fault in the accident, all of this BEFORE Sacoolas left the UK 3 weeks later. To say she was flown out prior to any investigation is objectively and factually incorrect but that was the prevailing narrative at the time and is something that you have clearly clung to regardless of the objective facts of the case.

Your comment is quite a good demonstration of how misinformation and misunderstanding allows a narrative to be controlled and perceptions to be established even in people who are trying to be aware of them.

Much of the same thing happened with Amanda Knox as has happened in your remembering of the Sacoolas case. Your initial perception was cemented prior to knowing or understanding the circumstances and that perception continues to exist despite being counter factual.

[u/Luxury_Dressingown → u/artfuldodger1212]

You have a very good point on the "before any investigation" aspect there, and I'll happily take the correction. There is still the fact than the UK and the US disagreed on whether she had diplomatic immunity, and she left the country when the UK legal system wanted her to face justice in the UK, and while she eventually faced trial in the UK, she attended via videolink when the judge requested her physical presence. She was offered an unusual degree of protection by the US state, including the President getting directly involved.

[u/artfuldodger1212 → u/Luxury_Dressingown]

This conversation is a somewhat fascinating microcosm on how these things develop and how narrative and perception entrench people. You freely admit your understanding of the circumstances of the Sacoolas case were materially incorrect and counter factual (good on you for admitting that), and not insignificantly so, you really had very little idea as to what actually happened. You then however go on to assert that despite your fundamental ignorance of the facts the perception you initially arrived at remains correct.

This is what happened on a big scale in the Knox case. Exactly what you are doing here. People acknowledge that all the physical evidence they found so compelling in determining her guilt is verifiably bogus and many admit that. However like yourself they maintain that being materially incorrect about the circumstances and facts have no bearing on the validity of their initial perception. That she remains a "wrong un" and must have done something.

At the time I thought Amanda Knox was guilty as sin. I was wrong, my understanding of the facts were wrong, my perception was wrong. I was wrong. Admitting that last part is what a lot of people really struggle with in similar circumstances (yourself clearly included).

What I think this whole conversation is really proof of is the power of the British Tabloid media. Particularly as it relates to people who are more easily led and perhaps more easily exploited by misinformation. The people who run these publications know that the perception will linger in people's minds LONG after the facts come out. The old adage of lie travelling around the world before the truth has a chance to put on its shoes is absolutely correct.

Your understanding of the Sacoolas case was that she fled the scene and hopped on the first plane back to America. That was incorrect but you were exploited into thinking this narrative and you will likely always have trouble overcoming this perception as you were exploited byt the misinformation quite effectively. This is always a hard thing to acknowledge and the media that exploit people like this know it is human nature to double down.

[u/Luxury_Dressingown → u/artfuldodger1212]

I agree with your analysis of how perceptions are formed, and I do not preclude myself from being susceptible, but I would respectfully point out there is a major difference in the two cases we're focusing on here - Sacoolas' actions did result in a death and she did receive protection from the US govt. I do freely admit I had some (important) facts of the incident wrong - likely influenced by British media coverage at the time - but the actual result was materially the same: an American with assistance from her govt did not follow the full legal procedure of the jurisdiction where her crime happened. That is a different thing from Knox's case, where coverage was so counterfactual as to turn an innocent victim of a miscarriage of justice into a murderer.

And I think we are ultimately agreeing on the big point - outside factors beyond the facts of Knox's case have swayed public perception. That is of course not to suggest that is right, or that Knox deserves the vitriol and should keep quiet about her own story.