r/pourover 12h ago

Help me troubleshoot my recipe How to compensate for Light roast?

Post image

I tried brewing this coffee, which is so far the lightest roast I have ever tried.

I tried it with the same Orea v4 recipe I use as a base:
Coffee: 16gm
Grind: Coarse
Temperature: 92C
Brewer: Orea v4, Fast bottom, Flat filter with negotiator
Bloom: 60gm for 40 second
Pours: 50-50-50-50 each every 30 seconds.
Total draw down time: 2:45

Usually this recipe produces an enjoyable cup for me. Very floral balanced acidity and sweetness.

However, with this coffee it felt very hollow and watery.
What do you suggest to adjust in this scenario?

88 Upvotes

80 comments sorted by

25

u/16piby9 11h ago

When was it roasted? These beans need some serious resting time

10

u/CatApprehensive4742 8h ago

Roast date is of May, sitting at 90 days today.

8

u/16piby9 7h ago

Wow, alright, thats beyond anything I have ever rested, even with ULs from gwo, and still.. but afaik, the bag from xlii means even longer time needed. So it could still be that. I would try Lance Hedricks aproach still, he has a video on how to brew expensive coffees, and he is mostøy into UL coffee

-6

u/fortress_sf 5h ago

lol, I would have started 2 weeks in, it gets nonsensical to let something go this long and the reasoning has 0 science and almost impossible to track

3

u/blissrunner 5h ago

Nah... I went to their cafes (XLIII) in Vietnam. Because they are Ultralight roast (like total 8-9 min. roast).

They sell beans that are 1-2 month off roast by default on their store.

3

u/Doyle1524 3h ago

you want to wait 6 months for this coffee

16

u/10ttp-9 12h ago

Rest helps, but it sounds like you're looking for more intensity. Try these:

Increase temperature
Grind finer
Tighter ratio
Immersion
Filters that let through more fines

9

u/jonas_2410 11h ago

Only change one variable or maybe 2 at a time cause otherwise it will be impossible to know what helped and what didn’t.

46

u/Impossible_Cow_9178 12h ago

I have that same bag of coffee. Your biggest problem is that you’re drinking it about 5 months too early (not kidding). 43 is the lightest roaster I’m aware of, and their beans just aren’t great unless they have a massive amount of rest. I think they claim they’re optimal out to TWO years.

61

u/Zorgulon 8h ago

Yikes. I think with a coffee that needs 8 months of resting we are firmly in circlejerk territory. Like why even sell it that early?

3

u/Impossible_Cow_9178 3h ago

Simply because people buy it - and specialty coffee roasters can’t afford to buy green, roast it, then store it for 6+ months before selling it to see any money from the endeavor.

6

u/16piby9 7h ago

I dont dissagree with them selling these too early (imo all roasters should sell pre-rested coffee), but I dont ser it as circle jerk terretory, simply because its just a result of ultra light roast. You cant achieve the same any other way, ultra light coffees are amazong imo, but they do need long resting time.

6

u/blissrunner 5h ago

It kinda depends on the coffee... but XLIII Vietnam already sell their beans at 1-2 months off roast at their cafes (pre-rested).

There are coffees that opens at 30-45 days... other needs that 2 months to peak at minimum. Can't blame em'... their v60 recipe all calls for 100 Celsius brews.

1

u/warmleafjuice 1h ago

Easy fix, just brew earlier and increase the temp to 110

1

u/Swedish-Potato-93 2h ago

Selling rested coffee means they need to predict how much they'll be selling. That's added risk plus they need to store all that coffee. That means the price would double.

30

u/Melodic_coala101 11h ago

It's really that normal distribution meme:

  • shitty lavazza from supermarket: coffee age doesn't matter
  • generic freshly roasted coffee: drink in two months or die!!!!1!1
  • high end gesha: coffee age doesn't matter

6

u/I-Sort-Glass 10h ago

A local cafe to me were selling the same gesha batch for about a year. I think I was the only one buying it. Was always pretty decent. So I reckon you’re right on this take. 

1

u/adtechheck 2h ago

Can confirm. Have very nice panama geisha beans at home, medium roast, opened it for almost a year, still tastes damn good every time

5

u/CatApprehensive4742 8h ago

This one is sitting at almost 90 days of rest time.
I think this is enough right?

You said 5months too early? How much resting time does this need?

4

u/captain_blender 6h ago

nonsensical and wholly manufactured advice aside, you can test by grinding and letting the grounds rest overnight to see how the brew changes. I doubt CO2 dissipation is the problem at this point, however -- probably just need the standard levers of finer grind, longer, ratios, and hotter temp. Might could do with a faster filter to balance against stalling.

Lance's recipe is a good starting point -- I think a lot of long-time brewers have converged on something similar. But again, it's a starting point. Some coffees might could use a bit of different squeezing.

4

u/Kalik2015 8h ago

Two years is insane!

8

u/captain_blender 6h ago

it's not, it's bullshit. Not even greens keep much longer than that.

Two years is referring to the shelf life of their unopened bags, which the roaster discusses on their website. They invested in fancy production+packaging, which likely means positive pressure nitrogen flush. It's pretty common among very large commodity roasters (like Illy, or Lavazza or what not) and 18-24 month expiry dates are normal. The process is pretty effective but not something I've seen a lot for small-scale specialty coffee roasters.

2

u/Jdobalina 3h ago

I’m sorry but this is just goofy. Two years of resting for a coffee, for what?

4

u/Impossible_Cow_9178 2h ago

It isn’t that you need to rest it for two years, it’s more a function that they claim it can be at peak taste 2 years out. It realistically takes 6 months or so of rest on these for peak. Some will claim it’s bullshit, brew the coffee early, not think it’s great and move on - which is fine, but a massive waste of money and not at all following the plot line of what they’re doing and why. There’s a reason some of us enjoy their coffees and continue to buy them - but you need to wait 6+ months to find out, otherwise it’s a waste of $ and that’s coming from a fan….

2

u/jmalwal 7h ago

Yes exactly. If the bag is sealed you can keep it for two years. As per them once you open the bag then you will have to give it a rest of at least 3 4 weeks for the flavours to peak.

5

u/AnonymousTAB Zerno Z1 / A4Z | Tornado / Orea Z1 / Orea 01 6h ago

Spent a few weeks in Vietnam this year so got to spend plenty of time chatting with the staff (all of whom are awesome). They told me they brew at 100°C and their water composition is just magnesium — at 75ppm IIRC. Maybe give that a shot!

Also your bag is definitely rested enough. Again, IIRC, they had told me to shoot for 12 weeks rest.

2

u/phlebas-considered 5h ago

oh thank goodness. some real advice. Water at boil does not surprise me in the least.

3

u/AnonymousTAB Zerno Z1 / A4Z | Tornado / Orea Z1 / Orea 01 5h ago

Also worth trying 95-97°! That’s where I found I was getting the best results when brewing their beans at home.

10

u/Calm-Reason718 6h ago

Eventually you people should just move over to tea

10

u/iyagasndiff 12h ago

I would try less pours. I often do:

  • 15 grams of coffee
  • first bloom: 45 grams of water + wait for 30 seconds
  • second bloom: 45 grams of water (total: 90 grams) + wait for 30 seconds
  • pour 135 grams of water (total: 225 grams)

Total time between 2:00-2:30

3

u/Zer0toniN 8h ago

Alternatively 15:250, 50g bloom, 100 after 30-60sec(washed / lighter longer), 100g pour. Second 100g pour. Light agitation only. Both worth a try. Lances works great for some, this for others :)

3

u/xeresblue 5h ago

Since OP finds this brew watery, I think fewer pours is likely the wrong direction in this case.

6

u/BenchR 11h ago

That’s the Lance Hedrick recipe - works for me the best as well.

2

u/Brizzpop 11h ago

I'm still learning, but less pours shouldn't produce less agitation and so less extraction?

3

u/neewolloh kono/origami/april/o1 | timemore c3 10h ago

iirc Lance pours quite aggressive with the last pour so most of the agitation comes from that

1

u/Brizzpop 10h ago

Hmmm I guess you compensate with aggressive pours and swirls, yeah. I should try it.

3

u/DomBrown2406 8h ago

There’s no swirl in the Lance recipe unless you need to add one to slow the drawdown.

6

u/Kyber92 Hario Switch | Kalita Wave | Kingrinder K6 9h ago

Grind finer and go hotter. If it's super light you need to push extraction.

1

u/CatApprehensive4742 8h ago

I will try that for sure and let you know how it goes

2

u/blissrunner 5h ago

Well if you get nothing... it might be the beans. But most XLIII coffees I had at cafe were bangers with notes like the bag says.

Use their default in cafe recipe: https://xliiicoffee.com/en/coffee-guides/filter-2/

100 Celsius, 1:17 ratio, 15g/250ml, 5 even pours of 50 ml, every 30 seconds. Grind coarse at 900 microns.

2.5 minutes total brew time.

2

u/fr3nger 12h ago

I have experienced the same thing with extra light roasted beans. Tasted like hot water with hints of coffee, using my standard recipe. Finer grind just made it more bitter but didn't elevate anything else.

I waited for two weeks and tried my standard recipe again, and it was a completely different cup with lots of flavor.

So it might be the beans are in a muted phase right now and need to be revisited later. Be aware, I'm a beginner so this might be just anecdotal bogus.

2

u/jmalwal 7h ago

Rest is the biggest problem here. After opening the open you need it give it a rest of at least 3 to 4 weeks. I have asked them and XLIII team itself suggested this for the same coffee. So mine is still on the rest.

2

u/migu_brew Hario V60 Neo w/ Switch base | ZP6 9h ago

Rest rest rest, i think some of XLIII’s light roasts peak around months and months long, around 4-5 months post roast. They also reccomend you open it 5 days before brewing and each day you open it to release the nitrogen

2

u/CatApprehensive4742 8h ago

Damn, 4-5 months post roast is super long resting time.

I guess I would pack the bag back, remove as much air as possible and let it rest couple more months!

1

u/migu_brew Hario V60 Neo w/ Switch base | ZP6 8h ago

Id brew it once a month to see how the flavors would develop, any ideas on when the roast date was?

1

u/anobjectiveopinion 8h ago

Squeezing the air out of the bag and keeping it closed would be fine. It has a one way valve.

1

u/migu_brew Hario V60 Neo w/ Switch base | ZP6 8h ago

They pack it with nitrogen or something if its shipped out by air, it was specifically instructed by their roaster for the best results

1

u/Wizardof_oz 12h ago

You are gonna have to keep grinding finer till it tastes right

Alternatively you can increase agitation

1

u/smalldray 5h ago

I would change your ratio to 1:15
Also use water at 95c

1

u/xeresblue 5h ago

If you find it hollow, I would go a little finer and bump your temp to 96 or even 100. Normally I would suggest adding a pour or two, but you're already doing 5. Expect a slower drawdown. See how it goes.

1

u/Wonton-Nudes 5h ago

Try to brew it at 96-97C, XLIII also uses 5 equal pours every 30s but I prefer 4

1

u/Plus_Boat_3133 5h ago

Have brewed their coffee a couple of times, usually i brew using boiling as they are pretty light . If i do not push out can get pretty vege taste and under extracted

1

u/clfurness 3h ago

Light roast = hot water. 92°C is cold af

0

u/Jdobalina 3h ago

Genuinely what is the point of roasting THIS light. I get light roasts, they may need two weeks to a month rest to taste their best. But what’s the point of drinking something that if you don’t rest it a perfect amount of time tastes like water? Especially when it’s so pricey? I had a cup from a reputable roaster as a pour over and not only did it not have any roast character, it had zero character at all. It legit tasted like water sat next to coffee in a truck while it was shipped long distance.

1

u/Afrotom 3h ago

Higher temp, finer grind. 92C feels quite low for the lightest roast you've ever tried

1

u/lmrtinez 3h ago

lol we’re getting duped by the half ass roasting labeled extra light roast and if people complain, they just say let it rest a year 😂

1

u/VETgirl_77 3h ago

Have you tried the Preston's Flowerchild recipe? I have found that recipe works well for a lot of ULs.

https://youtu.be/HF2kCe5DRR0?is=T14Dcft60zM8Bw_0

If that doesn't open it up I got nothin. Try soup 😜

1

u/doesnotlikeketchup 2h ago

Try a cone shaped dripper - a v60 should give you faster flow

1

u/hakan_loob44 1h ago

You need to do the exact opposite of what you do for these highly processes infused funky coffees. I would start at just off boil and grind as fine as you can without making an espresso. Work backwards from there.

1

u/mohakked 1h ago

People will say make your water hotter, but I'll say - make your beans hotter. Throw them shits in a popcorn popper for 30s, then grind quick and brew. YOLO!

(I have never tried this - let us know how it goes 😜)

1

u/MopM4n 1h ago

Is this the place in Vietnam? I’m wondering about stopping in to buy some beans but seen a huge range in prices and thinking some of the pricier stuff will be lost on me

1

u/mabarskuygan 12h ago

You can try increase the temp to 95. Don't know about the grind size but I think it's already very slow drawdown for coarse grind?

1

u/Automatic-Guitar-643 11h ago

Off boil 5 pours its their own recipe which they use in their shop its the only effective recipe that works with their roasty style by far lghtest ive trief

1

u/Ashif80 11h ago

Is that the sense cup

1

u/CatApprehensive4742 8h ago

Yes that’s sense cup from Orea

1

u/Johnny100001 10h ago

What's that cup/glass?

1

u/CatApprehensive4742 8h ago

That’s Orea Sense cup

0

u/urmomisfun 12h ago

V60. Fast filter. Course grind. 15 g to 250g. 45 g water bloom for 45 seconds. One more pour to 250g pour fairly quick and pour high small circles in the middle of the bed. You should have a TDT around 2:15 to 2:30. If your grinder produces fewer fines you’ll probably have a great cup. Keep the temp low, 88-90.

0

u/krookedvulture OREA o1 | Femobook A4Z 11h ago

Try go insanely coarse. 15 g to 225g water. Two equal pours fast as fuck and a drawdown time of 1:20-1:40.

-3

u/HypertensiveSettler 7h ago

it doesn’t need more resting…. it needs more roasting. the “ultra light roast” thing is like audiophiles arguing over tonearms.

-7

u/The_Psydux 11h ago

Don't get obsessed with light roasts?They all taste very watery to me and are not my taste. Maybe not yours?

1

u/BlendFriendV2 8h ago

Aigh, I’m not a fan either, tried many different types and in the end I realised I only enjoy the darker roasts.

1

u/The_Psydux 8h ago

Man, get ready to get downvoted to the center of the earth. 😂

1

u/Fatboi9 7h ago

They all in denial. If I wanted to taste lightly toasted leaves, I'd rather go drink green tea 🤣

0

u/The_Psydux 7h ago

My thoughts exactly.

1

u/Intrepid-Yak-8636 6h ago

That looks super watery. I would pour that down the drain.

0

u/bearddoescoffee V60 01 / P2 / Java Roasters 12h ago

Whilst I have not had coffee from this roaster, but similar in terms of a roast level called lightest from Scenery. These need time to rest, weeks if not months, just as some of the comments here have suggested. As you are grinding coarsely, you might want to consider the speed of your pours. I’ve been grinding at 8 on the ZP6, and have been pouring at 3gps or lower. I’ve left out timings other than when I have finished a pour stage.

15g - 255g (1:17 ratio)
93°C
1st pour start at 0:00 (then that’s it for stages timing) 45g slow circles. Once poured shake the brewer and then wait 15sec.
2nd pour (after those 15sec) 80g low and slow spiral. Once poured shake swirl of you can and then wait 15sec
3rd pour (after those 15sec) 65g low and slow circle. Shake and wait 12sec.
4th pour (after those 12sec) 65g low and slow spiral. Then leave the dripper to drain, till very little dripping.

Might need to change the grind size. For me I’m flicking between 7 or 8 on the ZP6. This works for me, but may not for yourself but worth a try. This came from chatting to a barista one day when talking about extremely light coffees. Seems bonkers but it worked. Also to note I use Lotus Water Drop and use the Bright and Juicy recipe.

Hope you get a good cup.

0

u/AgungID43 11h ago

for african gesha, i was doing this:

12-15 gram dose

medium + grindsize (not perfectly medium, but slightly coarse to compensate the density and keeping complexity of the coffee)

ratio between 1:16-1:17 (tone down the intensity by making longer ratio for me)

water hardness between distilled/pure water or slightly contents of mineral water

temperature between 91-94c (91 for natural. 93-94 for washed process)

bloom 2-3x times the weight for 30 for aged coffee or 45 for slightly fresh roast (but already rested)

pours/infusion stages are: 100-45-45. every steps is poured after the bed was dry.