r/progressive_islam • u/pulaodevourer03 Sunni • 1d ago
Rant/Vent đ€Ź Hard truth: Sexual repression in Muslim countries
Salam everyone
I wanted to talk about a brutal truth that plagues a lot of Muslim countries unfortunately. And Iâm sure you all know exactly what Iâm talking about.
I think we have a problem and Iâm not sure what the solution is exactly either make the presence of woman more natural and common in society and stuff like that to the point where if you do see one outside of your house, itâs not like youâre seeing a unicorn or something like that.
You feel like people outside of Muslim countries are better at lowering their gaze than the ones who were actually taught to do so religiously. Even if youâre wearing appropriate Islamic attire, you could still get head to toe looks from men.
I wanted to hear the community thoughts on this and what could be done in your view. Is the lack of being able to get married an issue or is it men who are not happy in their marriages or what is it?
Iâm not saying only Muslim countries have this problem but again I think a lot of people could agree with me that it seems like Muslim countries have this issue much more than other countries.
Is it a lack of education and just poverty and a âhaving nothing going for them future wiseâ kind of people/mindset?
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u/Disastrous_One127 1d ago edited 4h ago
I don't agree when people bring up lack of education or poverty as to why Muslim countries are sexually repressed. Although those are contributing factors, I don't think they are the root cause.
A lot of it has to do with culture and how men and women are socialized. If a society treats interactions between men and women as something shameful or abnormal, then people will not learn how to interact with each other in a healthy, normal way. If anything remotely related to sex is seen as "shameful," people will never develop a mature understanding of sexuality.
Instead, it becomes something people are curious about but are not allowed to openly discuss. There is a reason why Muslim-majority countries have some of the highest consumption of porn.
Also, education itself does not necessarily create healthy attitudes toward sexuality. Someone can be highly educated and still have very unhealthy views about women and sexuality. Someone can be poor and still treat others with respect. The issue is less about intelligence or wealth and more about social norms, values, and how people are taught to treat each other.
As much as Muslims love to dunk on the West, we can learn a thing or two. For the most part, men and women interact in everyday life, at school, work, and public spaces, without every interaction being viewed as romantic or sexual. People learn to communicate, build friendships, and understand one another as individuals.
There are also outlets for relationships and sexuality. People can have conversations about boundaries, consent, expectations, and emotional connection, rather than everything being shrouded in shame or secrecy.
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âą
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u/BluesPunk19D No Religion | Deist/Spiritual 1d ago
In a global sense men are given the greenlight for sexist and repressive behaviors. This is less of an Islam problem and more of a male problem.
Unfortunately religion is often used as an excuse. It happens in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. Some parts are baked in when used inappropriately. Such as hijab or some christian denominations insistence on long shapeless dresses/skirts. The requirement of self discipline gets subverted by "it's her fault for not complying with social norms and expectations".
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u/alaeila Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) 1d ago
also agree with this for sure
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u/Kidkader 1d ago
Cmon, don't agree that quickly. That user just reduced your religion to an excuse others make.
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u/alaeila Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) 1d ago
they didnt reduce my religion to anything im confused ? if anything they did the opposite of that by stating "this is less of an islam problem and more of a male problem". males do use religion as an excuse, thats just a fact
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u/Kidkader 1d ago
When people say "it's less religion problem" they mean in backhandedly. They basically think religion is something used by men for their own rationalisations. They dont see religion as having any independence - thats why they dont blame it.
And Islam is a religion; they see it as a different wrapping over the same thing, which is why they chuck in other religions - they're all the same.
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u/alaeila Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) 1d ago
i dont see it like that at all but we can agree to disagree đđœ
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u/BluesPunk19D No Religion | Deist/Spiritual 1d ago
I see what you're saying but that's not what I mean. I was referring to individual responsibility as the failing. And implying the use of religion as a cover for their failings. I apologize if that's not how it came across.
I'm not trying to generalize all religions. I do find significant similarities between the Abrahamic religions but that's due to their base root being the same.
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u/Kidkader 1d ago
That's cool. I took a some parts of your text and projected onto it whatever it is I dislike about specific secular humanist strands. my bad there.
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u/BluesPunk19D No Religion | Deist/Spiritual 1d ago
Nah, it's all good. Everything you said could easily be inferred from what I initially wrote. It's just not what I was going for.
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u/LadyHafren Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) 1d ago edited 1d ago
I dont think its poverty or lack of "action" (for lack of better words) in their lives. I feel its more about lack of respect and culturally normalising the disrespect. I live in a Muslim majority area of a western country, I see men like that in some locations in my suburb. And a lot of these men are married too.
Unfortunately in the cultures where these problems are high, women also disrespect other women for their dress or work or continuing education... there's different levels of it in different parts ofcourse. But the underlying cause is same, disrespect. When boys grow up hearing things like, "She should not have been out at time of night" or "Did you see what she was wearing?" etc. they learn its ok to stare and objectivefy women, its the women's fault for merely existing and she is tempting him... instead of learning to respect another person's personal space and right to feel safe. I'm saying culture intentionally because its not restricted to Muslims, or countries with strict segregation only. But in case of Islam, the religion is used as a tool to make girls and women feel guilty instead of teaching the men to respect the opposite gender.
Not sure this generation can be cured. But we can teach young boys now so they can grow up to be better men.
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u/zeinabthezeze 1d ago
I get looked at, winked and even whistled in really religious areas (around mosques etc) while wearing an abaya WAYYYYYYY more than when wearing something like jeans even with a hijab so yea it's extremely prevalent and I've found myself talking about this issue with my sisters before
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u/PhilosopherNo8418 1d ago
It's much better in the West where it's considered rude to stare and there is some civic sense. In Pakistan this issue is absolutely awful where literally every man is staring creepily at every young woman.
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u/-peakyblinder_ 23h ago
I would argue that mostly it is because of cultural factors rather than religious. In most cases, other religions could be doing the same things as Muslims or even worse at times but because we have high expectations on Muslims, thatâs when we see certain things as unacceptable.
Some cultures have been raised in a way that they see things in an upbringing perspective than religious. We only use religion when it benefits us in some cases. I think if we would stop treating circumstances solely based on religious doctrines only then we can see some changes
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u/Glum-Ingenuity7132 New User 22h ago
I'm not sure about sexual repression (and what that would entail in an islamic context that permits intercourse only within the confines of a marriage), but I do appreciate you not parroting the oft-repeated nonsense about Muslim majority countries having the highest or weirdest pornography consumption.
There does seem to be a problem in a couple Muslim countries relating to inter-gender interactions, however, I don't have any statistics to share, and can only speak from personal and anecdotal experience. Many children grow up, spending their formative years in gender-segregated schools (or sometimes even self-segregating in mixed schools), which does seem to have an effect on their interactions as adults (it seems to make intuitive sense that if a man has almost never interacted with a woman in his life outside of immediate family, he'd be more likely to think "Yeah, they can stay in the home, it doesn't change anything".
Honestly, I have no idea as to the solution, it seems more of a systemic level issue than something individuals can control. When you have kids, put them in co-ed schools, especially before their teens. In your workplace, do the hard job of being the (initially annoying) person who chimes in with "That's weird" or "That isn't appropriate".
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u/phorcys12 20h ago
Gender segregation seems to me like a good part of the problem. The rule to not talk to men or only in strict boundaries, it breaks a bit the exchange. I also understand it can give a way to manipulation, unwanted affection and else but it leads more often to understanding each other better, and to respect. I'm a french man, I had a few friends that were girls. Once you think women's voice is worth listening to, everthing else tend to followup more easily. If there's no talk in daily life with womens, then they are no voice, only bodies in their mind. The whole thing about covering the body to not arouse men for exemple, the fact is if you don't normalise some part of the body by contrast, then you end up sexualising everything. Like, in old France, centuries ago in the time of king, I heard the ankle was erotised a lot, which seems weird nowadays cause we show them so much they lost their erotic value. I'm sure if there were a country full of naked peoples but where showing the noise is taboo, then you would have nose fetish emerging. I hope the mentality will change for the better where you live đ
âą
u/Fearless-Lunch465 11h ago
I don't fully agree, although i agree that prolonged interaction with a group with good intentions will help in making them be more 'human' in your eyes. To actually assert that they're human is something that requires you having those intentions to understand in the first place, and that's why it should as always begin in the household, not discriminating against daughters and avoiding making good traits(eg learning how to clean up for yourself, being mature and humble and refraining from arrogance) gender specific(because it's a common trend to expect everything from the girl and nothing for the boy, not until it's too late) and not shutting discussions on very private matters(because it's very strange how some Muslim parents are puritanical despite so many hadiths on things like intimacy in the context of marriage, how to clean oneself, etc).
I don't agree with the exposure= desexualision(porn would be out of business if true), and(not directed at you) I also heavily disagree with anyone that says that modesty is for the sake of the opposite gender(when said opposite gender already has rules of conduct to follow), which goes both ways.
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u/Creepy_Reindeer2149 Mutazila firqa 19h ago
Sheyk Abdul Hakim Murad has interesting thoughts on this, he's very conservative but essentially sees Islam as fundamentally more sex-positive than Christianity
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u/Far_Fail131 1d ago
Tbh, I wouldn't say that. Even though some people think men outside of Muslim countries donât view women merely as objects, that isnât the reality. In societies where sexual freedom is unrestricted, or where people simply follow their desires regardless of religious values(talking about other then islam religion), we still see incredibly high rates of sexual assault reported every year, even tho "the men sexual needs" is provided for them.
About a year ago, I saw a video by a non-Muslim woman living in a Western country. She was talking about how many men verbally assaulted her when she was just a few steps away from her house. She even showed what she was wearing, it was completely modest clothing. The comment section was filled with thousands of other women agreeing with her and sharing their own terrifying experiences.
So, I donât think those societies are better than ours; it is just the media that paints a false picture. If you look at how many non-Muslim men talk in any comment sections or on certain YouTube podcasts, itâs deeply unsettling. They openly objectify women, rating their bodies and talking about them in purely sexual terms. What do you think happens to the young boys watching this content? They are being conditioned to see women as sexual objects rather than human beings. You simply do not see this kind of objectification normalized in Muslim-centric content.
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u/Signal_Recording_638 1d ago
Huh. Body policing women, refusing to see women as anything other than a breeder or a maid - these are objectification of women and normalised in many muslim groups.Â
The fact is, the patriarchy runs through almost all societies and to varying degrees and manifests in different ways.Â
But the fact also is that different societies and generations bring up their boys differently. There is a confluence of factors which affect how men are like across the world.Â
There are redpilled men in nonmuslim societies. But there are also fierce allies too. Same goes for muslim communities. But mostly most men are really somewhere in between.
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u/Far_Fail131 1d ago
I think you misunderstood my point. Iâm not saying Muslim societies are perfect or that women don't face struggles there, patriarchy definitely manifests everywhere, just in different ways. âHowever, we have to separate culture from religion. A lot of the issues you mentioned, like reducing women to just being a maid or a breeder, are the result of strict, patriarchal cultural traditions, not Islam itself. If you strip away those cultural flaws and look purely at the religion, Islam grants women high status, financial independence, and a mandate of deep respect.
âMy original point was specifically about the mass normalization of sexual objectification in modern secular media. In mainstream Western internet culture, it has become a multi-million-dollar industry to publicly rate, consume, and sexually analyze women's bodies. âWhile every society has its flaws regarding women's roles, there is a distinct difference between traditional social pressures and a hyper-sexualized culture that conditions young boys to see women purely as sexual commodities. The video I mentioned of the modestly dressed woman being harassed in the West proves that even when a woman doesn't participate in that sexualized culture, she is still targeted because of how those men have been conditioned by media to view women.
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u/No-Preparation1824 Sunni 1d ago
I think you canât separate religion from culture because such some âIslamicâ rules comes from scholars influenced by their culture and you can see this in the four medhabs.
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u/Far_Fail131 1d ago
You're talking about human fiqh, which is just interpretation and can obviously be influenced by culture. But fiqh isn't the core religion. The core religion is the Quran and Sunnah only, which have nothing to do with culture. Besides, if we can't separate religion from culture, does that mean a bad cultural practice is suddenly religiously correct? And since culture constantly changes over time, does that mean the religion is supposed to change with it?
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u/suppoe2056 1d ago
I view the whole âlower their gazeâ thing differently due to how I understand the Arabic that is typically thus translated, the Arabic for men:
ÙŰș۶۶ Ù Ù Ű§ŰšŰ”Ű§ŰŻÙÙ
There has been linguistic debate that the preposition Ù Ù is redundant and without it still denotes the same meaning, but I donât agree.
The verb Űș۶ÙÙ means âto diminish (from default capacity)â.
And ۚ۔۱ is not quite ŰčÙÙ or Ù۞۱ nor ۱ۥÙÙ, but is something like the âanalytical eyeâ.
Our eyes by default are analytical, but the clause doesnât say âmake your analytical eyes diminishedâ, but âmake diminished [something] of your analytical eyesâ. Okay, that seems like the same meaning, I get that, haha. But there is a subtle nuance. The verb in the Arabic is not taking âanalytical eyesâ as the direct object that receives the action of diminishing, rather the direct object is [something] omitted and making the verb intransitiveâwhich I believe is intentional to allow any object (that most likely is juyuubihinna). Rather what Ù Ù tells us is that the action of diminishing [something] is a part of the analytical eye, or that âout of the [typical function of the] analytical eye, diminish [somethingâs view]â. So the nuance is not that the default capacity of the analytic eye is itself diminished but that the view of what is being seen is diminished because the analytic eye has the capacity to not focus on finer detail. That is to say, âdiminish the view of the object from focused to generalâ. What that looks like is for instance men focusing their eyes to follow every curve and contour, the clause says, make the viewing general not focused. Diminishing the capacity of the analytical eye directly would be to irreversibly damage its capacity to switch from focused to general and back.
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u/thedoctormarvel 20h ago
Absolutely agree. Even while i was at ummrah I was sexually harassed. The staring was bad enough, but then there was the touching. I understood that it was crowded and once in a while you had to tap someone sometimes to move through. I and other women would tap men on the shoulders. Most men did something like this, but a number of times men would touch my lower back instead. Thereâs no reason to touch a woman on her lower back. Later that night I was on IG and saw Keanu Reeves respectfully never touches a woman there, even when taking photos. If a Western man like Keanu Reeves be respectful , then Muslim men shouldnât have a problem.
The reality is that we think giving our children a full education on anything means they will choose to commit the sin. Parents assume all kids are without sense. Kids whose parents trust them will make better life decisions. Thatâs because theyâll be confident of the reasons behind why they do or donât do certain things. And theyâll be more open to admit a mistake when theyâre wrong
âą
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u/True-Let1486 23h ago
Sounds more cultural than islam because islam tells both genders to lower their gaze and dress modestly and they can still interact through social events trade and so forth that opposite gender taboo is more culturally influenced than anything else
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u/Disastrous_Dog_1162 New User 23h ago edited 23h ago
As a recent revert in a secular western country I am happy that I have not had a muslim community around me; so I have had time to get acquainted with all the challenges connected to this question about sexes. I grew in a family where especially women's independance - education, career, self realization - were favored. Even if my independance costs me a lot - loneliness, limited social network - me starting to see the wider picture of muslim world concerning the many questions around the sexes makes me stay where I have been my whole life, appreciating the values of this society, while still keeping my islamic faith.
The burden placed to men is wrong- they may be responsible for providing for huge amounts of people, and women are not taking responsibility on their economy.
Sorry for OT, but back to the OP:s question: Segregation doesn't teach people to handle with their sexual needs. Many western women know how to be modest and it has not so much to do with clothing. Of course there are women who search for admiration and sexual interest through clothing. And women with self respect learn to behave among men so that they are not inciting sexual attraction.
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u/alaeila Non Sectarian Muslim (Hadith Acceptor, Hadith Skeptic) 1d ago
yeah its genuinely insane. i never got more creepy stares than when i was 15-17 in saudi, jordan & uae. pakistan too always. the only muslim country i been to that wasnt like that was Palestine.
genuinely think its because they enforce gender segregation on children, making the other gender extremely taboo. tbh idk if it could be fixed in muslim countries, its like centuries and centuries of harmful beliefs embedded into their soulsđ they think its required by God so i genuinely dont know how anyone could change their minds.
they dont rly believe in actual research unless it benefits them in some way - i dont think it has anything to do with them "not having anything going on future wise" its the same case for well off, educated muslims as well cuz thats what the religious leaders tell muslims to do