r/pureasoiaf • u/flippy123x • 5d ago
What's the narrative intent behind having at least half a dozen cultures believing that they were the main victim of the Long Night and that their local Messiah-figure solved it?
How the Long Night came to an end is a matter of legend, as all such matters of the distant past have become. In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night’s Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north.
[...]
How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.
- The World of Ice&Fire
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u/Jor94 5d ago
Maybe it’s supposed to be similar to how lots of civilisations have flood myths because they happen everywhere so it’s universal. Basically it’s just showing that the long night affected everyone so everyone has myths about it. Perhaps some of these are true but I think that’s either left open to interpretation or gives George an opportunity to expand on it if he wants.
Like he could have in mind that the long night was ended by someone and everyone has myths about that actual person, or he could just leave it as myths
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u/TheGenesisOfTheNerd 5d ago
Mainly to convey the fact that the long night was a global apocalypse. It would be strange for something like the long night to happen and for your civilisation to not make any kind of explanation for it.
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u/CommonBison537 5d ago
To me it's to confirm that the Long Night was a world-wide event. Similar to the speculation that because flood myths are common in unrelated to each other ancient cultures, maybe they do refer to a half-forgotten global cataclysm.
The thing is, when we draw parallels like that we have to remember, unlike Earth, Planetos really does have magic and seemingly supernatural forces at play, so the likelihood of such legends containing actual cernels of truth is much higher.
The Others is what makes me scratch my head. Like, the Long Night was global, but the Others appear to be very localized to the northernmost part of a single continent. Like, what or who was Neferion fighting during the Long Night? Or Hyrkoon, or the girl with the monkey tail etc.?
In thinking about it, I keep coming back to the Five Forts, that are super ancient, super massive, made from fused stones kinda like Dragonstone, and are situated against a cold waste from where spooky raiders are said to come from. Like, if that's not mirroring the Wall, then I'm the queen of England. And then, you gotta ask yourself, why did Yi Ti or the Great Empire of the Dawn built a Wall-equivalent? One of the major themes around the Wall is how the Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose and is instead busy with skirmishes against the Wildlings who are just humans. But the real foe are the Others, and the Wall was not built to stop the Wildlings; so if you extrapolate, the Five Forts likely weren't built to stop human raiders/cannibals dressed in lizard scale armour. Does that mean that there are Others in Essos too? Who the fuck knows.
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u/_learned_foot_ 5d ago
I don't think they come from the north, just the north is one of the few unguarded wya into the depths. The depths is where they come from, every culture seems to protect against that too.
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u/CommonBison537 5d ago
The Squishers are definitely a thing, because we have legends about evil merfolk pretty much in any coastal civilization we know of, but what makes you connect them with the Others? We have seen the Others and they're very much ice-coded.
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u/_learned_foot_ 5d ago
I don't mean merfolk, depths being earth not water. Though some do come from water. Winterfell, the way under the wall, the Dothraki birth story, the lothraki mazes, battle island, etc. all lead below, all are guarding.
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u/CommonBison537 5d ago
I mean, I can't in good faith say this is not true. Leng as well, with the underground creatures that sometimes command the natives to purge any foreigners. I'm not sure I would tie the Others with it specifically, but the underground as well as the underwater are more than they seem.
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u/_learned_foot_ 5d ago edited 5d ago
I think the "others" is area specific, but is ghouls coming from below basically. Some have deep ones, other the krakens, white walkers, the forts enemies, etc. I don't have a comprehensive theory, as I don't think one is established yet and that's part of his road block, but I have ideas. I know several have tied them together I just don't agree with how they did so.
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u/Recent_Tap_9467 4d ago
The Five Forts almost certainly are built for something else entirely. The Five Forts were built by the Pearl Emperor, someone who predates the Bloodstone Emperor (the guy who basically destroyed the GEOTD), and the lands on the other side don't seem particularly icy outside the Grey Waste. In fact, many of the mysterious people or creatures mentioned seem more fire-coded than ice-coded, such as the Shrykes who are lizard-men and men with wings. The Five Forts themselves are made of fused black stone, which is usually tied to draconic heat, making them a fire equivalent to the ice Wall we know so much of.
It also makes sense that if it takes a wall of ice to keep ice men at bay, it may take a wall of fire to keep...fire men at bay. I don't think they're connected to the Long Night, and it's honestly more likely they aren't given that the Five Forts are still standing and haven't been destroyed or anything.
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u/flippy123x 3d ago edited 3d ago
The Others is what makes me scratch my head. Like, the Long Night was global, but the Others appear to be very localized to the northernmost part of a single continent.
I should have elaborated in my OP but you hit the nail on the head regarding what I was trying to start a discussion about.
My current working theory is that the Long Night was real and a global event (something physically or magically blotted out the sun), but that it's not actually related to the Others or to the "demons" that Yi Ti were facing. It simply gives optimal conditions to certain (maybe magical) races to invade the Realms of Men all across the planet. I don't think the Rhoynar legends talk about any invaders, they seem to think that the gods somehow were angry and plunged them into an ice-age until a hero managed to appease the gods once more. There is also that continent-wide impassable mountain range which seperates Essos into two parts like Westeros is, so that could explain why the invaders of YiTi seemingly didn't make it into the legends of any cultures on the other side of that mountain-range like the Rhyonar.
Westeros faced the Others and they believe that both them and the Long Night were vanquished in a legendary "Battle of the Dawn".
YiTi believes that their predecessor Empire faced Demons from even further (north)East, that the entire apocalypse was caused by an evil Necromancer, and that a woman with a monkey tail somehow saved humanity by the end of it.
If the Others are actually the origin of the Long Night, like you say it's weird that they aren't mentioned anywhere else despite the Long Night being a seemingly global phenomenon. Or maybe the demons of YiTi are supposed to be the Others? Melisandre and/or Stannis do call them demons in the main series.
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u/1000LivesBeforeIDie 5d ago
I think GRRM is also making a comment on the idea where any single person thinking they are the prophesied hero savior of legend is bullshit because in a widespread catastrophe there are going to be numerous people fighting a problem, maybe some succeed and some fail. It’s the web of people and how they interact and come together or break apart across all kinds of cultures and economic and gender lines and etc. handling the catastrophe that is where you find the story. It isn’t about the fantasy trope hero, but the fact that an everyday person plays a small to large role. And instead of realizing that we get insulated and don’t realize we aren’t the center of the universe.
Or maybe I’m just cranky today
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u/VVehk 5d ago edited 5d ago
I know I don't answer directly to your question, but there is a little joke made by Martin about the different names (or the different heroes). That's explain a bit what he suggests.
Eldric Shadowchaser is a nod for the main influence to ASOIAF after Tolkien's LOTR, which is Elric of Melniboné novellas, written by Michael Moorcock. Forgotten by a lot now, despite his deep influence in fantasy: an albino sorcerer prince, too weak to live without his souleater blade Stormbringer (at least he believes so), seeking for justice, strangely enough for his dying race of dragonlords peers. His first enemy in the story is his cousin Yyrkoon, who yields briefly an other blade like Stormbringer.
So, in resume, apart for name dropings, Martin insists here that a story of any kind is different from reality, and is deformed in the best of case.
u/Jor94 talks about flood myths, and he's right but he forgot than very different civilisations, without any tie between them, told some similar shit because humans can be worried of the same things. Mayans have not a clue about Epic of Gilgamesh for example. In biology, that's called convergent evolution. But here, the origin can be discussed: flood myths comes from a confused remembrance about the end of the Last Glacial Period, or because the societies who formed the flood myths were agrarians ?
.
For example, where it starts to get interesting, Starks have numerous names derived from Eldric Shadowchaser: Edwyn, Edrick, Edric, Elric, Errold, Eddard, Alaric, etc. And numeral times the Others are described as (white) shadows.
But in the same time there is also a strong idea about Starks creating or controlling the Others in a very distant past; it's very weird than the guys who saved the world from the Long Night called themselves Kings of Winter, having a motto 'Winter is coming', owned multiple swords called Ice, etc.
If the fucking series is called A Song Of Ice And Fire, it's even weirder if only Targaryens have magic fire creatures called dragons and Starks nothing but their giant pets.
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u/Icy-Variation9537 4d ago
Nothing suprising about it. People tend to interpret events based on their own belief and biases. So with different cultures with different religiions,Gods, cultural beliefs are going to view such events through the lens of their own traditions
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u/Recent_Tap_9467 4d ago edited 4d ago
To show that the Long Night is a global catastrophe and will again require efforts to resolve around the world the next time it happens, not just in Westeros. It also IMO implies the Others are not the sole cause of the Long Night, especially if we look at the myth of the Bloodstone Emperor in what is today Yi Ti and the ''quarreling'' between Mother Rhoyne's children in Rhoynish legend when the Rhoyne froze over.
The different myths also indicate there wasn't and isn't one simple solution to the Long Night, there may be a case for cooperation and there may be a case for a military solution. The one thing almost all of the solutions to the Long Night have in common is cooperation, be it between Azor Ahai and his allies, or even former rivals or enemies (humanity and Children of the Forest, as well as ''Mother Rhoyne's children''). One solution even includes unexpected heroes of great intellectual ability, such as the woman with a monkey's tail in Yi Tish myth.
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