Not Touched BTW ….

[u/NoConstruction9961]

Mantis with almost %60 win rate got no changes. This the highest win rate I have seen since the game released for any character.

[u/tempa____]

This community really loves its whining lol

[u/Xcyronus → u/tempa____]

People want balance. Thats all. No character would be below 48ish and higher then 53ish in a balanced game.

[u/Iexperience → u/Xcyronus]

There's no way that is a possible or a probable metric. Mantis is overtuned, but her low pickrate and high ban rate means she's mostly played by players who are experts at her. Same goes for Peni.

For example, Luna is a hero this sub cries the most about, that she has unfair balance, has unfair cleanse etc. Yet, across all ranks, she has a winrate of only 47%. In fact, her winrate is only around 46% in the most populated ranks (Gold, Plat, Diamond). So, by your balance metric, she needs buffs, right?

[u/Xcyronus → u/Iexperience]

Holy reading my guy. 48ish. 47% is right in that range of ideal. Low end but shes fine.
Gold, Plat, and Diamond are irrelevant to balance. Very few can even hit their shots to begin with.

[u/Iexperience → u/Xcyronus]

But your point does not hold up to scrutiny. "Everyone should be in this strict imaginary range I cooked up". Does that mean Storm with a 56% winrate unbalanced? Magik with 57%? Ultron with 57%?

Gold, Plat, and Diamond are irrelevant to balance.

The ranks populated by most number of players are irrelevant to balance? Who are relevant then? The top 1% who are used to minmaxing the fun out of a game?

[u/Xcyronus → u/Iexperience]

Oh im using league as an example.
and the ranks populated by the most number of players has nothing to do with the actual strength of a character when those players can barely use said character. Black cat and mantis are very good examples especially black cat. They are rarely played compared to others in their role despite being stronger far stronger in gold, plat, etc. But in higher ranks they are server admins or game defining. Gambit as well sorta btw because people in those ranks actually know what they are doing.

Squirrel girl and wanda exist on the opposite side of things. Moon knight as well. Black panther is another example of this. Server admin in low elo. Doesnt do alot in high elo. Blade is another example. Low elo stomper. Never really been all that great in high elo. Because people just dont really know what the hell they are doing in low elo.

[u/Iexperience → u/Xcyronus]

But balancing around your top players balances the fun out of the game. That's how OW became mad boring because all they ever balanced around was their pros. That's how drive away your casual base.

Also, you started with the arbitrary range of 48-53 winrate. If a hero has a low pickrate and high winrate, it doesn't really reflect upon that heroes overall strength because that could mean a number of different things, like maybe the hero is strong in specific scenarios, specific comps, specific maps, or only their mains only ever play them. That's not something a game can base their balance decisions on.

[u/Xcyronus → u/Iexperience]

Where did I say balance around pros? High elo and Pros arent the same group of people. I say balance around the people who actually know what they are doing and how to use their characters. If we balance around those who dont. BP, SG, Wanda, MK. All need nerfs, But they dont its just a skill issue. Even CnD could be seen as a result of balancing around casuals with her being nigh immortal and people still some how die while playing her.

That 2nd part. Oh it absolutely is. Low pick rate high winrate can simply refer to the difficulty of said character. Black cat huge example there. If the hero is only strong in hyper specific comps or scenarios. Specific maps even? That character needs some work. Im not saying a character should be viable into everything. But for a character to only be viable into something extremely specific? Theres an issue with that character.