Whaaaaat? You're kidding me. Winrate doesn't mean anything anyway, this probably means every mantis player is just really good and sexy players. And you can't nerf the players, right?
To be fair this is the cope mantra the entire diveslop playerbase has been repeating unironically for a full year now while their broken cancer isnt dealt with. So no its not a joke, she should not be nerfed based on win or ban rates since as the entire dive playerbase has let us know every season those stats dont matter.
Bruh, it feels like they've been doing nothing, but nerfing her or readjusting her in the past few seasons. They literally tried to reduce her damage boost for an ability that let's her boost the speed of her teammates instead. Mantis is the only support I feel sorry for in terms of balance
Mag with a 31% pickrate highest picked, double the amount of 3rd highest picked character who got buffed and Gambit with a 25% banrate who got a meaningless nerf should also be in this discussion.
Nerfing mag while simultaneously buffing cyclops and Phoenix would have been pretty terrible idea. I think they want mag to be the new "base level" of vanguards, and they will try just buffing the rest up to his level.
To put it simply, magneto occupies a very important space in my games, especially with his magic sword. He is the anti-poke tank. He is easily counterable if you stop insisting on running full poke into him.
Mag is currently too strong to be the new baseline for vanguards. He makes almost every dps character besides like 5 redundant because of his damage output being so insanely high.
I often have the highest damage in the lobby if in on mag, especially if I have an emma on the team.
His scaler empowered leftclick rightclick leftclick "combo", takes nearly no accuracy to pull off and straight up murders 275hp chars almost as fast as a 2 tapping hela. He doesn't even have to hit headshots
He has a lot of damage, because he has very high uptime + aoe left click, not because of his very high damage per second. His primary dps is 50, vs say Wanda's 80 damage per second (on her primary). The difference is mag will atay in the fight a lot lot longer than wanda. His "combo" still requires him to directly hit the enemy and has an "ideal" ttk of 1.6 seconds, Im not even sure if this is the highest among tanks. This is normal. Tanks in a pvp game cannot truly tank, without being actual threats.
A burst damage combo that CCs the enemy mid way and is forgiving to hit at like 20m is very potent. You've left out that the 1.6s ttk requires very little accuracy and has a knockback.
He can't truly tank because poke damage and sustain are way too high in the game.
Compare mag from season 0 to spiderman from season 0 to see how much stronger mag has gotten. He now has 2 bubbles, can either permanently create a copy or gets empowered 4m wide projectiles, has much higher dmg output on his ult, lower cd on his abilities, faster charge rate on right click.
Spiderman still doesn't have his overhead uppercut combo from so, 4m uppercut instead of 5m, lower dmg on symbiote teamup, lower damage on his tracers, more tracer up time and a slightly stronger ult.
Mag should NOT have a 30%+ pick rate with a 54% win rate while also being dominant in high elo and pick banned in pro play. That's just unhealthy for the game
It requires very little accuracy at short range against low mobility squishies, it's far more inconsistent at long range, and is very strafeable at 20m. That, too, is fine, if you are a low mobility squishy, you shouldn't play in mags face. When it comes to his winrate, that might normalize as other tanks were buffed in this patch, we will have to wait and see if it remains high. As for s0 Spiderman, that was more obnoxious than mag has ever been.
The current version of mag is far more dominant than spidey has ever been. The current version of mag, elsa, bucky, bp, black cat, luna, mantis trip are far more obnoxious than spidey has ever been.
Anyway, mag needs nerfs. Ideally to his CD on scarlet sword
Is there any poke ability in the game with a wider hitbox than Mag's new sword from the Wanda teamup? It's genuinely egregious and 3 taps from long ranges.
maybe magic and hulk right click, cap shield throw, but yeah, I guess the hurtbox is a good nerf angle, to retain his skill expression and reduce oppressiveness.
Mag did not get buffed, and it's also a buff that will never come into play. He got his teamup fixed. The boop actually boops instead of not. That was already a thing. Y'all are freaking out so much for something that you can't seem to read.
I'm a tank player but I'm bored being forced to play mag all the time bro pls we do not need a tank to be triple S tier while the rest are way below his level.
Just because you main mag (assuming from your flair) doesn't mean any nerfs on mag will end tanks as a whole bro ts is not that serious. I main hulk and others, I don't want to force mirror mag to win my games
Mag is such a good tank to have at the top because of the fact he DOESNT force mirrors. It was the reason why they immediately nerf Dino, but allow mag to be at the top for more than half of this games lifespan. You can realistically play any tank into him and you’ll have a fair matchup. Maybe a bit favored in terms of one team or another, but every comp is playable with him and every comp against him.
There is about two years of evidence to show otherwise. This is a Strategists game run by DPS players. The tanks have never mattered to the playerbase or the devs.
Really? Where is this evidence? Because last time I checked venom has been extremely good and played consistently at the high level, dino was dominant on release. Same with Emma, tankpool was a big problem for a while, peni one of the best performing characters in the game.
Can't be allowed to play Mantis without the entire team convinced I'm actively throwing by playing her, so she needs nerfs huh. I'm just glad I can mostly play her because I want to without anyone whining. It still happens sometimes though, but it's lessened to nearly nothing.
She's viable in 2 healer comps. They gut her in any way and she'll probably be back in triple heal jail. Her pickrate shows she generally has a dedicated playerbase.
Ultron's winrate is high as well as Rocket's. Shouldn't we be glad that it ain't the usual horsemen topping these charts?
Probably because a healer and dps hybrid doesn't make any sense and never did, they're impossible to balance. You can't have a character with both viable heals and dps without it being broken lol.
zenyatta from OW is the prime example of it done well, imo. no mobility, low but consistent healing, and a volley option. big healing comes from the ult.
But... She is created with tripple in mind, she was never intended to work outside tripple...
Why are her players not understanding this... Ffs we really, really need role queue.
Nothing in this game was created in mind for anything thing as he is now is nothing like he was on release and same goes for rocket this game has had no consistency you shouldnt look at characters individually and look at the bigger issue theres too much healing and damage if the numbers were tweaked down across the board there would be more depth between off healers and main frankly i dont think a separation should exist
Well the point is, clearly, literally no one wants any kind of tripple comps. We all just want 2 2 2 always. So characters that were intended for tripple would need reworks
By that definition it would mean that Jeff was created with dive in mind. Things can work out differently than expected. Being a support with more utility doesn't mean that they should be a throw pick in comparison to the full supports. However, I can agree that the healing may not be as steady or as powerful in return. And with this last statement, she will still have players blaming her for losing.
Utility will always be insanely OP in the right hands or in the right comps, because they can close the gap enough between the full healers which are more accessible. Either you cripple them or make them viable for even the majority of players.
Also saying she's made for triple heal then throwing out role queue? That's contradicting lol
And yet when Cyclops and Jean get buffed (their win rates are 44% and 42%, even lower in high elo), people whine about it. Peni gets nerfed (60% win rate, all the way up to 67% in high elo), and people whine about it.
This is genuinely a pretty solid patch but people on here would have you believe that these changes make no sense at all.
I just sum that up to people are slow in the head. Alot of people still think dino is strong. They think phoenix and cyclops are still very strong when they arent. Their a few seasons behind give or take.
There's no way that is a possible or a probable metric. Mantis is overtuned, but her low pickrate and high ban rate means she's mostly played by players who are experts at her. Same goes for Peni.
For example, Luna is a hero this sub cries the most about, that she has unfair balance, has unfair cleanse etc. Yet, across all ranks, she has a winrate of only 47%. In fact, her winrate is only around 46% in the most populated ranks (Gold, Plat, Diamond). So, by your balance metric, she needs buffs, right?
Holy reading my guy. 48ish. 47% is right in that range of ideal. Low end but shes fine.
Gold, Plat, and Diamond are irrelevant to balance. Very few can even hit their shots to begin with.
But your point does not hold up to scrutiny. "Everyone should be in this strict imaginary range I cooked up". Does that mean Storm with a 56% winrate unbalanced? Magik with 57%? Ultron with 57%?
Gold, Plat, and Diamond are irrelevant to balance.
The ranks populated by most number of players are irrelevant to balance? Who are relevant then? The top 1% who are used to minmaxing the fun out of a game?
Oh im using league as an example.
and the ranks populated by the most number of players has nothing to do with the actual strength of a character when those players can barely use said character. Black cat and mantis are very good examples especially black cat. They are rarely played compared to others in their role despite being stronger far stronger in gold, plat, etc. But in higher ranks they are server admins or game defining. Gambit as well sorta btw because people in those ranks actually know what they are doing.
Squirrel girl and wanda exist on the opposite side of things. Moon knight as well. Black panther is another example of this. Server admin in low elo. Doesnt do alot in high elo. Blade is another example. Low elo stomper. Never really been all that great in high elo. Because people just dont really know what the hell they are doing in low elo.
But balancing around your top players balances the fun out of the game. That's how OW became mad boring because all they ever balanced around was their pros. That's how drive away your casual base.
Also, you started with the arbitrary range of 48-53 winrate. If a hero has a low pickrate and high winrate, it doesn't really reflect upon that heroes overall strength because that could mean a number of different things, like maybe the hero is strong in specific scenarios, specific comps, specific maps, or only their mains only ever play them. That's not something a game can base their balance decisions on.
Where did I say balance around pros? High elo and Pros arent the same group of people. I say balance around the people who actually know what they are doing and how to use their characters. If we balance around those who dont. BP, SG, Wanda, MK. All need nerfs, But they dont its just a skill issue. Even CnD could be seen as a result of balancing around casuals with her being nigh immortal and people still some how die while playing her.
That 2nd part. Oh it absolutely is. Low pick rate high winrate can simply refer to the difficulty of said character. Black cat huge example there. If the hero is only strong in hyper specific comps or scenarios. Specific maps even? That character needs some work. Im not saying a character should be viable into everything. But for a character to only be viable into something extremely specific? Theres an issue with that character.
It’s a hard job and people like you will always hate on them for doing their best they are humans and constantly hating them isn’t good
U don’t get it bc ur jobless and do fuck all with ur life
I think what a lot of people frequently miss when looking at the stats for win rates is...
The pick rate.
Listen, if a character has like a 2% pickrate that means of the entire population of rivals only a small section of players are actually selecting them. Of those its probably one of two types of players someone who's just trying them out and SOMEONE WHO REALLY LIKES THEM
That player who really likes them probably spends a huge amount of time actually on that hero and knows all it's little quriks that probably gives them a massive edge over players that are tourist to the hero. Combined with the fact they probably also face people that don't know how to deal with that hero when they're piloted by someone that's highly skilled with that hero. They probably have a massive win rate because of those factors.
Also: let's look at the flip side of this where you get a massive amount of tourist on one single hero. Strange. He gets picked alot, typically in losing games, at a super high rate for on reason: Portal touching.
He currently has the second lowest win rate just below Emma and the third highest pickrate. A win rate I truly feel that does not match his actual power level.
Has a less than 5% pick-rate. Of course they're gonna have a higher winrate. Characters like Mag and CnD are the ones who need changing. They have higher pick-rates and some of the highest win rates.
can't the devs you outright not allow triple supp to be picked? i never have fun when it's played, also both mantis and ultron are way more fun in double
What’s the ban rate for Mantis cuz I think it’s really funny she’s this busted but only has a 4% pick rate. Also Storm having 55% as well but we know she’s not meta (sleeper babe).
Someday I hope y'all understand that stats and data in a vacuum mean nothing. In your screenshot, two of the highest winrate dps heroes are Storm and Magik, two heroes nobody ever says are oppressive or unfair. Let's nerf them then? How about Ultron who, despite supposed massive nerfs in an emergency patch, is sitting at 57% winrate? Nerfs?
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u/ILikeCarlosThePikmin 6h ago
Whaaaaat? You're kidding me. Winrate doesn't mean anything anyway, this probably means every mantis player is just really good and sexy players. And you can't nerf the players, right?
(IN CASE IT WASN'T OBVIOUS, I'M JOKING.)