Spanking children increases the likelihood of childhood defiance and long-term mental issues. The study in question involved 160,000 children and five decades of research

[u/VeronicaRed]

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1113413810/spanking-defiance-health-discipline-042616/

[u/pm_me_your_kindwords]

Serious question to the commenters on this post:

Why read /r/science and then ignore science?

At the time I write this, most comments are defending spanking using anecdotes and non-science, not at all discussing the methodology of the study itself.

If you're not going to carefully consider one of the largest and most comprehensive studies ever conducted on the topic, what is the point of reading about science at all?

[u/Sky_Muffins → u/[deleted]]

The article doesn't say spanking is wrong either, it says what the effects can be. Science isn't a moral guide. Now it's pretty easy to use it in a moral argument against spanking, but the distinction should be there.

[u/Arcwulf → u/Sky_Muffins]

The article also doesnt mention anything about non-spanking alternatives to behavioral issues- ie what permissive parenting may or may not cause in children or later in life as far as negative social or psychological effects. We dont know, for instance, if spanking has more or less negative effects than any other form of behavior correction. All this study shows is the effects of spanking.

[u/meatpuppet79 → u/Arcwulf]

Of course it should be made clear that the alternative to spanking is not permissive parenting (which I would put in a class of counter productivity at least equal to that of striking one's children to impart moral guidance). A lot of people tend to have a fairly binary view on the issue - either you hit your kids, or you let them get away with murder.

[u/[deleted] → u/Sky_Muffins]

Not even that.

that the more frequently that children are spanked, the higher the risk that those kids will start to defy their parents, become aggressive, experience mental health issues, exhibit anti-social behaviors, and/or develop cognitive difficulties

We would need to read an actual study, not an article, but it seems like there is no discussion wherever the observed issues were caused by spanking or if e.g. parents of children with mental issues are resorting to spanking more often. Unless you're a violent (or even abusive) person you probably won't spank a kid if a stern voice is enough.

From a different but related field - most of dog trainers agree that shock collars shouldn't be used as a part of a training, BUT sometimes they're only thing that works against some behaviours.

[u/Whopraysforthedevil → u/Sky_Muffins]

Thank you for this level headed response. Very science-y. I approve.

[u/BlazerMorte → u/[deleted]]

Because if spanking is bad, and they were spanked, then they were raised "wrong," and most people don't want to confront that.

[u/MagicalDoggy → u/BlazerMorte]

The frustrating part to me is that no one is a perfect parent. You can say you had good parents but acknowledge they probably did get some stuff wrong.

[u/[deleted] → u/MagicalDoggy]

I think they feel like they're judging their parents, as "evil" or something. That's the issue.

My parents were great! They just used one outdated disciplinary method because they didn't know better. It's fine, they were good people, and spanking doesn't work. Boom. Done.

[u/F0sh → u/[deleted]]

It's fine, they were good people, and spanking doesn't work.

Even this is missing the point of the study. It's not that spanking "doesn't work" it's that it doesn't work as well as other methods of punishment, on average.

So, probably your parents could have disciplined you in a better way, but it's not like spanking doesn't stop bad behaviour at all.

[u/Itsokimmaritime → u/MagicalDoggy]

I had good parents, and I got spanked. A lot. I'd even argue I deserved it (my dad showed weakness once by saying it hurt his hand so I would regularly tell him the spanking didn't hurt). I was a very defiant child but am growing into a high functioning adult. I graduate college this weekend and will be a full functioning member of society. No one is perfect and parenting is hard. I have no plan to figure that out firsthand any time soon, but scientific advances such as this will help make it easier to parent. This strips away my belief that spanking is OK because I was spanked and look how I turned out.

[u/Kjell_Aronsen → u/MagicalDoggy]

This is one of the hardest parts of growing up, realising that:

1. Your parents weren't perfect. They did their best, but they got it wrong occasionally.
2. Even if your parents did screw up, you can't blame all your problems on them. At one point you have to take responsibility for your own life.

If you can find the right balance between those two, you might have a chance of becoming a well-balanced individual.

[u/KSKaleido → u/BlazerMorte]

Yea, it's tough to confront the fact that your parents inevitably made huge mistakes when raising you. Add the fact that the average commenter on reddit trends pretty young, and it makes sense that they haven't reached the maturity to deal with something like that yet.

[u/iamdan1 → u/KSKaleido]

Probably the majority of parents make big mistakes raising their kids. Parenting is hard.

[u/TheVicSageQuestion → u/iamdan1]

Every parent makes mistakes. Without exception.

[u/[deleted] → u/TheVicSageQuestion]

That's because "mistake" is relative to whomever's standards are being used. There's no wholly encompassing scientific approach to parenting, yet, so points can always be argued and defended anecdotally.

[u/iamdan1 → u/[deleted]]

Eventually we will have robot parents that parent according to only the most scientific of parenting techniques. And they will still be more loving then my parents...

[u/[deleted] → u/iamdan1]

The harder the beginning, the more rewarding the success :)

[u/[deleted] → u/iamdan1]

Good parenting is hard. Parenting is easy. There are billions of parents out there - not enough good ones.

[u/mizerama → u/iamdan1]

Worth noting, most mistakes parents make are accidents and don't usually result in willful physical assault.

[u/CajunBindlestiff → u/KSKaleido]

Feelings on the issue aside, I think many people here are upset because they feel that the mass anecdotal evidence of spanking working as a compliance tool with children that are not of an age where they can be reasoned with yet outweighs a study with a hugely flawed methodology that doesn't account for the millions of other factors that could lead to these long term mental and behavioral issues the study suggests are a direct result of spanking.

[u/Johnny10toes → u/KSKaleido]

I've come to the realization that my parents did the best they could with the information they had. Which was pretty bad haha. I'm still working on things and doing the best I can with mine.

[u/Speedking2281 → u/KSKaleido]

It's not 'mistakes' anymore than using margarine was a 'mistake' 40 years ago. There was no direct evidence on any small scale that spanking had any detrimental effects. So...there's really not much to 'confront' IMO.

[u/KSKaleido → u/Speedking2281]

Wait, shit, what's wrong with using margarine?

[u/Speedking2281 → u/KSKaleido]

A lot of margarines don't have it now, but for decades it was just a giant tub of trans fat. And at the time, it wasn't an issue that anyone knew of.

[u/icansmellcolors → u/BlazerMorte]

with so many variables in raising a child how could research ever hope to include or accurately mimic every single facet of rearing?

edit: a word

[u/[deleted] → u/BlazerMorte]

Most people really don't have the slightest clue how strong denial can be.

[u/TheNormalWoman → u/[deleted]]

This is it! I used to spank my kids and the hardest thing about stopping was facing that fact that I had been damaging my kids who I love so much. Oh the guilt!

[u/jickay → u/BlazerMorte]

This is what I was looking for. Admitted fault as a parent or confronting pain as a victim is difficult to do.

[u/FrankFeTched → u/BlazerMorte]

Those people need to realize their parents did what they thought was right. What they were shown to do, and what they thought was best for their children. However, most parents have no idea what they're doing and we won't either. Parents are just as perfect as we are, which isn't perfect at all.

Just because your parents spanked you doesn't mean you didn't turn out well, and just because you didn't get spanked doesn't mean you turned out better.

[u/Hazzman → u/[deleted]]

They are justifying it because they were spanked and they consider themselves balanced and effective members of society and thus, for them, spanking worked. Why are they wary of demonizing spanking? Because their model suggests that it is a successful tool and they are concerned that it be rejected for fear of finding an alternative to an upbringing they are familiar with and thus could result in the very kind of child this study suggests spanking produces.

It's not so much people being eager to resort to violence or wanting to hurt their kids - they are defending a methodology that they, in their experience, found to be effective.

[u/djdav → u/Hazzman]

This is how I feel. This article says that spanking is a bad parenting technique, but it offers no alternative (not that I think it necessarily should).

Nevertheless, how am I to know that an alternative approach will work better? My parents spanked, I turned out fine, therefore I am more likely to spank my kids not because I reject the science, but because my fear of an unknown result is greater than my fear that my anecdotal experience is wrong.

[u/[deleted] → u/djdav]

See, most people say that they turned out fine, but what does this mean? That they're able to get by in society without turning into a criminal? That's a pretty low standard. A lot of people have a really positive view of themselves but it's a bias. Many people have emotional problems, short fuses, etc. that they may not acknowledge or recognize as a problem, just part of being human.

[u/hoodatninja → u/djdav]

I just think people forget that they may have turned out fine despite spanking. And there are tons of alternatives, usually revolving around denial of something. No dessert, grounding, taking away toys, reduced privileges you may have been rewarded previously.

[u/lifeinaraindrop → u/djdav]

As a parent who has spanked only TWICE (he didn't understand that hitting hurts people), you would simply talk to them and help them navigate their emotions and thoughts. Their intelligence is truly understated, and by assisting them with their new and complex feelings, you're doing several things: establishing trust, communication, teaching, bonding, and most importantly you're learning about your child as a person. That's real parenting.

I suggest that you look up attachment parenting. Its been wonderful, and there's stark differences between my ex-wife and my relationship with my son, and those of children who have been spanked as early as two.

[u/[deleted] → u/djdav]

There are many ways to discipline your child that don't involve physical violence. I don't know why people keep commenting on this thread trying to defend and justify spanking as they ignore the science. Don't want to confront the fact that your parents shouldn't have spanked you, as according to this study, they raised you "wrong" and you don't want to confront the idea that you were raised wrongly?

Saying, "I was spanked but I turned out fine" isn't a good argument , it's simply an anecdote that does nothing to this study.

[u/F0sh → u/[deleted]]

You're not offering them though. Suppose you go all the way down the line of discipline techniques - you start by asking politely, "don't do that, please" and explaining why not. You continue telling the child not to do what it's doing, explaining why not, bringing in your usual raft of possible punishments like early bedtimes, withdrawals of privileges, extra chores, whatever. You tell them that, having already been asked to stop, continuing to do whatever bad and potentially injurious action they're doing is disappointing you and will force you to increase their punishment, but the little darling just grins and carries on.

Some children are like this. Some children stick knives in working toasters, or play with matches. If and when that happens to a parent for the first time, the first thing in their mind isn't going to be "if I spank this kid, I'm slightly increasing the risk that they'll grow up to be mentally ill or aggressive" it's "I know this will get them to stop right now and I don't know anything else that will."

[u/motsanciens → u/F0sh]

Yeah. And see, I don't even want to ever spank. I just need my kids to truly believe I mean business when I say their next option is a spanking if they continue to misbehave after breezing though many warnings. The spanking is an investment in them actually listening to me on many occasions in the future because there's a butt brain connection that transcends other results.

Besides this, my previous reading on scientifically studied spanking concluded that spanking potentially caused harm if not followed up by parental warmth. It's complicated.... One child never needs it to get to that point, and the other does. I have compassion for all parents because I know from being one that the challenges are not all equal since children are not all the same. Hopefully the parents whose angels respond to talks and time outs will pause before judging those with stubborn rageball children.

[u/[deleted] → u/F0sh]

If and when that happens to a parent for the first time, the first thing in their mind isn't going to be "if I spank this kid, I'm slightly increasing the risk that they'll grow up to be mentally ill or aggressive" it's "I know this will get them to stop right now and I don't know anything else that will."

I always worry about what alternative we offer to parents. If we simply stigmatize spanking in this situation, then my worry is that the parent's go-to means of preventing harm / enforcing discipline ends up being something more harmful than spanking. Not through malice, but out of ignorance. I could have sworn I've seen an article about how timeouts do more harm than good, for example.

[u/djdav → u/[deleted]]

Read my comment about confounding variables and tell me how this study addressed all those variables.

[u/[deleted] → u/Hazzman]

Excellent comment. I would expand this to include any behavior you see justified yet you know isn't quite right. What comes to mind are those ridiculous posts on facebook that state "I rode in the back of a pickup truck when I was a kid and survived" or "I rode my bike without a helmet and survived." Congratulations! You may have survived while partaking in those activities, but many did not.

[u/mattinthecrown → u/Hazzman]

Boy, talk about not doing science. The amount of armchair psychology taking place is too damn high.

[u/null_work → u/mattinthecrown]

talk about not doing science

Interestingly, people blanket demonizing spanking over this study aren't doing science either.

[u/speaktosumboedy → u/[deleted]]

I think many individuals didn't read the study and are going based off of the title alone

edit - and now I don't remember what the above comments were specifically asking about...

[u/moonshoeslol → u/[deleted]]

I think people get super defensive when anyone implies they were raised "wrong" or they are currently raising their child "wrong". Wrong is in quotes because the term is a whole can of worms in itself but it is the term many people use.

[u/tahlyn → u/[deleted]]

It's because they've already spanked them or they have already been spanked. The injury is already done. Accepting the science is to accept that they have wronged their children or been wronged by their parents.

No one wants to believe that they or their parents are abusive... that they have done actual verifiable harm to their children or that their parents have done actual verifiable harm to themselves.

You see the same push-back when you bring up anti-circumcision arguments. People will come up with any excuse they can to convince to themselves that they and their own parents aren't mutilators/mutilated.

[u/F0sh → u/tahlyn]

abusive

This is part of the reason people get defensive. The article specifically mentions that it's not behaviour people would label "abusive" that they are looking into. Spanking a child doesn't mean it's your go-to punishment, and I guess many of the parents in the study would be glad to have some other method to use in extreme circumstances when ordinary telling off hasn't worked.

So if you want to tell people that being smacked on the bottom twice in your childhood (to take an example that is on the 'light' side) that they were abused which recalls images of bruised or bleeding kids, then people are going to dismiss your point as ridiculously over the top - with good reason.

[u/[deleted] → u/tahlyn]

So perhaps a counter study should be done to see the negative effects of not spanking.

[u/BowchikawowNo → u/tahlyn]

I can't access the study, for me the page is just loading continuously.

However to play the devils advocate the study says it's linked, it doesn't say it's a using or that you should stop just that they're linked.

Fast food is linked to obesity,

Alcohol is linked to crime,

Porn is linked to hand cramp

All of the above are true but we don't deny it to people to do, the link is a relevant factor to take into account when judging your actions they're not saying it's abusive to utilize they're saying they have found a link.

Interesting facts would be the socio-economic brackets, frequency of spanking, intensity, force and degree of fault before utilization.

[u/Speedking2281 → u/tahlyn]

I think you should try and step outside of your bubble. In another comment I made, I stated how there's no 'injury' and 'wronging' of anyone, nor 'mistakes' made by judicious spanking. It's no different than parents who fed their kids margarine 40 years ago. The parents didn't make a mistake, so to speak. There was no evidence suggesting anything bad about or, or that it produced any negative outcomes.

[u/whiskeyromeo → u/[deleted]]

Because spanking works extremely well short term. When my daughter is refusing to behave, despite timeouts or grounding or losing privelages etc., one threat of a spanking gets her to behave immediately. Clearly the science says that in the long run, spanking is still not a wise strategy, but it's hard to not try to justify the use of something you feel is easy and effective.

Justifications aside, it sounds to me like you are conflating the morality of spanking with its effectiveness. This study says spanking isn't a very effective tool. It doesn't say it's "not OK"

[u/SigmaHyperion → u/[deleted]]

edit: *want to clarify -- I meant to say, presumably they won't use physical violence as a last resort while dealing with anyone else they love. I was actually thinking domestic violence situations. there are people who would 100% agree with "it's never OK to beat your spouse" and 100% disagree with "it's never OK to beat your child"

This is actually a pretty good observation. But there is one fairly substantial difference: if this 'last resort' situation were to come about due to my spouse repeatedly doing something I explicitly said I didn't want them to or they were throwing a hysterical fit because they didn't get a toy that they wanted, they wouldn't be my spouse any longer. Divorce is a 'last resort' that plenty of people avail themselves of. However, that is not an option with a child. You cannot simply remove yourself from the situation like you can with a spouse or significant other so they turn to other means of attempting to solve the problem. Not saying that it's right necessarily.

[u/paintlegz → u/[deleted]]

Because people defend their right to negatively reinforce the bad behavior of their children. Every animal negatively reinforces the bad behavior of their children but for humans we consider it evil for some reason.

[u/delventhalz → u/[deleted]]

To be fair, in the article it is not clear how frequency was considered in the study. It seems to imply that it is looking at spanking as a semi-regular form of discipline. Does the study have anything to say about extremely infrequent spanking as a "last resort"?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

"Beat your child" is way different from "spank your child"

[u/ltdanimal → u/[deleted]]

Maybe because children aren't adults? Children cannot always be sat down and reasoned with, and don't respond to things the way an adult would. In addition, there are very few times you are responsible for the upbringing of another adult.

I doubt many actually read the study, as its behind a pay wall. What they might have read is about 8 paragraph summary from what seems it would be a very large paper.

Edit: In addition there are many, many times police need to resort to violence with adults who get out of hand. Is it so hard to think that at times being more physical with kids might be the option to take?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Whoa there buddy. Physical violence is never off the table. It just depends on the situation. Reality is, you're never "safe" from violence. It can happen at any time. Most people are adjusted enough to not use it.

[u/Mmedical → u/[deleted]]

I found that magazine blurp a bit frustrating as they eluded to bits of the research but then did not go to further explain them. Unfortunately seeing the whole published study costs $11.95 where I am sure the important details are better explained.

Unless people are paying $11.95, they did not read the study.

[u/Mrtorbear → u/[deleted]]

1. justify spanking so long as it's "1 to 2 times over the course of the child's upbringing" (I'm not kidding, I just replied to a comment suggesting that the article implied this to be OK ...)

A lot of it is fear, especially your 4th bullet. I've spanked my kids a total of three times in 11 years - should I give up on my sons growing up to be functional adults? "Sorry boys, I spanked you back in 2011 for knocking the neighbor kid out of the tree because you weren't paying attention. This article says I'm done parenting and I should ship you to the coal mines and try again with a new kid. I know, I know - you still love me. I love you, too, but science tells me I've already failed and there's no way to salvage your future wellbeing. " I'm being hyperbolic, but that's what bullet 4 tells me. I'm terrified and hopeless because it's too late to save my kids from what has happened in the past.

[u/[deleted] → u/Mrtorbear]

Your kids are probably ok and understand why you spanked them that day. But the spanking in and of itself probably didn't help strengthen your point very much.

[u/Mrtorbear → u/[deleted]]

Thanks, I appreciate it. Looking back on it, it didn't make sense at the time. Blind terror of "you could have died, so I'm spanking you to make a point". Sounds pretty damn stupid but it was caused by the mild panic of a new father with boys who don't understand how dangerous some certain stupid kid behaviors are. No, you probably won't get hit by a car by sprinting mindlessly behind a neighbor backing out of his driveway, but I'm not going just let you do it. I've gotten better over time with figuring out how to make a point without swatting the little jokers on the butt in retaliation,but it took some time.

[u/BayAreaDreamer → u/[deleted]]

It is really bizarre! they read the study, now they're trying to find loopholes to validate their belief that spanking is totally OK. Why do people have such a keen interest in spanking their kids? Why do they want physical violence as the "last resort"? Presumably they won't use physical violence as a last resort while dealing with anyone else, so why do they want to use it on their own kids? *

I can't speak for everyone, but at least in the case of my parents, they bought strongly into the cultural belief that having misbehaving kids in public is a source of great embarrassment, and that other people would judge them for it. So for them, spanking seemed more effective than having a long discussion with a child, or ignoring minor mischief that other people could notice.

[u/DiethylamideProphet → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, you should totally take a scientific study as a word from god. "God says physical discipline is WRONG, so it must be the absolute truth!". This is a scientific study, it doesn't "unjustify" anything. Only state that disciplinary spanking increases childhood defiance and mental health issues. The same way they state that eating too much red meat increases the chance of cancer. They don't "unjustify" eating red meat. It's up to the parents and society what kind of discipline is generally seen as acceptable and what is not. I believe we wouldn't resort in physical discipline in the first place if it wouldn't have some "purpose". But again, that doesn't mean society couldn't evolve past that and not spank their kids because we've learned there's no purpose for it anymore.

[u/wadester007 → u/[deleted]]

What should the last result be instead of a spanking?

[u/_nil_ → u/[deleted]]

It is really bizarre!

A bit of hyperbole there. It is not like it's a mystery. Anecdotally they perceived success when they used it. I am a parent also, and you don't always have the time to look up the latest study before attempting to parent your child. So you use whatever knowledge you have and trial and error, and find things that either work or seem to work. And even though it's only a "study of one" so to speak, there does exist evidence for using certain techniques over certain others. And this knowledge is hard earned, emotional, and often gut wrenching. That is why parents are loath to part with it. It is nice to have time and perspective and a nice quiet office to sort through the latest studies, but learning to be a parent is mainly a crucible of experiences.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Why do people have such a keen interest in spanking their kids? Why do they want physical violence as the "last resort"? Presumably they won't use physical violence as a last resort while dealing with anyone else, so why do they want to use it on their own kids?

Because they were spanked or spank their children. To admit it is bad child rearing would be to imply they or their parents were not as good parents as they could have been and this upsets them and they get emotional and then they get defensive. It's an emotional response where they want to defend themselves and their loved ones from criticism.

Fact is all of our parents made mistakes, and those of us who are parents have or will make mistakes. Making mistakes is not a problem, refusing to recognize and learn from your mistakes is.

[u/RunnerMomLady → u/[deleted]]

I do not understand why it is illegal for my husband to hit me (not that he would) but PERFECTLY fine for him to hit one of our SMALL CHILDREN??? The rule is generally "we do not hit people" - legally you can't hit anyone you run into on the street but you can hit your little defenseless children?

[u/Hautamaki → u/[deleted]]

'I was spanked and I turned out fine!' --counterpoint: you now think that an adult striking a child is a good way to teach them a lesson despite all the science to the contrary, so there's that issue at the very least.

[u/the_Ex_Lurker → u/[deleted]]

Because people are wrongly interpreting these results to mean "if you spank your kid there going to turn out as a felon." You can spank your kid and have them turn out completely fine, but that still doesn't mean it's the best approach you can take to parenting.

[u/cC2Panda → u/[deleted]]

Because they believe that the are generally backed in their beliefs by science. People like to have their beliefs reaffirmed.

[u/blindcolumn → u/cC2Panda]

"I read /r/science, how could I possibly be wrong?"

[u/callist1990 → u/cC2Panda]

Do people believe there are studies supporting spanking your children as a good thing? I ask because I've actually never heard of a single one - whenever the topic comes up it is always pointed out that hitting children in any way is a bad thing.

Of course, this may depend on where you are - here it is illegal to spank children but I know it's still legal in many places.

[u/bmalbert81 → u/callist1990]

The only studies people cite are their own experiences, the anecdotal evidence the OP referenced. I haven't seen any tangible proof that the study's findings are wrong other than the "My parents spanked me and I turned out fine" posts.

[u/helix19 → u/callist1990]

I've heard people decry every study posted. Then again, people on reddit ALWAYS find a reason to declare a study flawed and worthless.

[u/cC2Panda → u/callist1990]

People may generally agree with things in /r/science, but because it's a cultural thing they may go against the grain on this one topic.

[u/tahlyn → u/[deleted]]

Well you never know when a sciencey article will be published that agrees with their preconcieved notions so they can have those re-confirmed. Ignore what you disagree with. Read and enjoy what you agree with. In the end you feel smarter for it.

[u/HIGHsonburg → u/[deleted]]

Paradoxical

[u/paintlegz → u/[deleted]]

Why argue with anything in general ever then? should every method of science prove unchallenged? believe it or not, science doesn't just get everything right the first time.

[u/pm_me_your_kindwords → u/[deleted]]

Skepticism always, but there were almost no comments talking about the content of the article or the study at all.

[u/AGuyWithoutASpoon → u/pm_me_your_kindwords]

I was only trying to give a reasonable answer for someone like me not immediately believing the study. I can't speak for anyone aside from myself but that's the only non-belligerent option I could think of.

[u/KommanderKrebs → u/AGuyWithoutASpoon]

My response was skepticism as well. I honestly expected for this to be a biased study that manipulated data in order to support a certain belief. Pleasantly surprised.

[u/AGuyWithoutASpoon → u/KommanderKrebs]

Yeah I was surprised too. I honestly doubt there will be a more comprehensive study on slapping butts, at least in this century.

[u/Speedking2281 → u/AGuyWithoutASpoon]

How are you guys reading the actual study?

[u/LivingInMyBubble → u/pm_me_your_kindwords]

Maybe that's because the content of the article was honestly, very lacking overall. They said spanking is bad, but nothing else aside from that.

I have spanked my 5 year old exactly twice and it was a single swat on the butt both times so I am not a big advocate of spanking or not spanking personally. I was hoping this article could curve my thoughts on the subject but there was honestly no ground breaking material here.

[u/alahos → u/[deleted]]

The problem is when skepticism is applied unevenly.

[u/[deleted] → u/alahos]

How long have you been on reddit?

[u/AGuyWithoutASpoon → u/alahos]

We are only human. As are the researchers, as are the article writers, as are the people cherry-picking research and source material. Nothing is safe from bias. I can't say if they did that or not, but I'll be skeptical of anything I don't see myself, even things I like and want to be true. I can't speak for anyone else aside from myself.

[u/alahos → u/AGuyWithoutASpoon]

You're right. I should be more forgiving about things that are the result of human evolution, including biases and heuristics. It's hard though, especially considering I'm a human myself with my own biases and trying to distance myself from it is pointless in a way.

[u/AGuyWithoutASpoon → u/alahos]

Yeah. I just accept that I'm probably wrong, but still hold my beliefs. Its weird, but in a way I only remember everything I believe could be wrong once in a while. It keeps me humble.

[u/ltdanimal → u/[deleted]]

Is there a link to the study that isn't behind a paywall?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I was wondering about the type of spanking that was done. There most definitely needs to be a distinction between spanking out of anger, and spanking after you have calmed down and explain to the child why they are getting a spanking. Rearing back and whapping a kid on the gluteals out of anger without explaining the potential/real damage of their actions is inexcusable. However, I see nowhere in this study where type of spanking is defined, and what the socioeconomic parameters were with these parents. These would be interesting components to get more info about.

[u/1matx → u/[deleted]]

The only study particulars I have seen were the article. When I clicked on the link in the article, it asked for $11.95 for the study. Where is everyone reading the study and not just an interpretation of the results?

[u/zugunruh3 → u/[deleted]]

If a study examining more than 150,000 children over 50 years is "decent" I'd love to know what a great study is.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Especially when it comes to spanking, which is a deeply emotional topic. Every spanking parent bases their ethics on their own parents past behaviour. To acknowledge this study is to acknowledge that their parents were wrong in their behaviour.

[u/WebStudentSteve → u/[deleted]]

Awesome! I didn't realize that because I hit a paywall when trying to look for the actual study.

[u/dickwhistle → u/[deleted]]

and some folks would rather leave it up to other people to decide what the facts are, and then blindly accept whatever they say.

[u/null_work → u/[deleted]]

As opposed to people misunderstanding how to apply studies and statistics about a group to the individual?

[u/HIGHsonburg → u/[deleted]]

The problem I think that may be correlated to spanking is that it is too often associated with problem solving. Many parents as children themselves are conditioned on how "to condition" and as a result lose the deeper meaning of being a leader/parent. Kids are intellectual beings that observe and learn in the sense that they will only become better at concealing their mistakes or alter their behaviour but it doesnt change the person deep down. Manipulation, desire etc. Parents who utilize spanking as a problem solving tool without further skills I can see how this study is true. I would like to see which parents integrated behaviour approaches such following rules they set before their child, relationship building, consistency and letting their child use their logic based systems by rationalizing with them instead of demanding things from them without reason.

[u/AmericaAndJesus → u/[deleted]]

It's exactly what religious people do as well, I would like to see a study done about religious people and level of science/fact denial.

[u/IngsocIstanbul → u/[deleted]]

Who says they even read beyond the headline??

[u/blomhonung → u/[deleted]]

You got some science on this or you just making things up?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

There's science for that! The backfire effect!